ADDED: I thought David Gregory really lost his cool early on, as he was questioning Cain about 9-9-9. If you watch the video, you can see he's agitated and grimacing in a way that really lacks the usual polished journalist quality. To excerpt the transcript bits that hint of this attitude:
The reality of the plan is that some people pay more, some people pay less.... You're saying [prices] actually go down?... This isn't about behavior, Mr. Cain, this is about whether you pay--if you don't pay taxes now, and you now have income tax and a sales tax, you pay more in taxes.... Mr. Cain, we talked to independent analysts ourselves.... We're not just reading newspaper clips here... They tell us, they've looked at this, based on what's available of the plan, and it's incontrovertible.Gregory's experts are incontrovertible? What kind of a question is that? How does Cain deal with this barrage of disbelief from Gregory? He stands his ground and explains his program:
Some people will pay more, but most people would pay less is my argument.... Who will pay more? The people who spend more money on new goods. The sales tax only applies to people who buy new goods, not used goods....This discussion got me thinking about the positive side of switching to sales tax. With a progressive income tax, the political process sets different percentages for different income levels, so, for example, the majority can vote jack up the taxes on other people — "the rich" — and those other people can work on extracting various exemptions and credits and so forth in an elaborate, inscrutable government system. With a sales tax, you control what you pay through your shopping decisions. Every time you forgo a purchase or buy used goods — and isn't that good for the environment? — you pay no tax. And every time you choose smaller amounts or cheaper goods, you pay less tax. Now, you have various needs that you have to meet, but you have far more control, and you aren't at the mercy of the ever-ongoing machinations of the political process.
My point is: After the debate last week, I was thinking about the negative aspects of the sales tax, but as he was talking about it on "Meet the Press" today, I felt open-minded about the potential benefits. And that was while Gregory was going for the jugular.
MORE: Gregory asked about the Occupy Wall Street movement: "Do you empathize, as the president does, with the message of those Wall Street protesters?" Gregory invites him to express empathy, a concept Obama has actively promoted (which Gregory prompts us to recall). Cain homes in on the premise that there is a message and proceeds right to criticism of Obama:
What is their message? That's what's unclear. If that message is, "Let's punish the rich," I don't empathize with that message. They should be protesting the White House. The White House has basically enacted failed economic policies. The White House and the Democrats have spent $1 trillion that did not work. Now the president wants to pass another $450 billion. They have their frustrations directed at the wrong group. That's what I'm saying.Nice clarity and brevity and excellent sharp perception of the opportunity in the question asked.
AND: Gregory confronted him with an extreme statement he made back in February: "The objective of the liberals is to destroy this country" and followed up with a pointed "You think liberals actually seek to do that, that that's their mission, to destroy the economy?"
Cain stood his ground: "It is their mission. Because they do not believe in a stronger America, in my opinion. Yes."
Gregory let it go at that and moved on to another one of Cain's presumably insufficiently thoughtful statements: "You've also said that stupid people are ruining America.... Who exactly are you talking about?"
MR. CAIN: People who are uninformed. People who will not look at an alternate idea. People who are so dug in with partisanship and partisan politics. Open-mindedness is what's going to save this country. The reason that my message is appealing is because it's simple and people can understand it. You know, a good idea transcends party politics...Somehow, the next question on Gregory's list was: "Is race a factor in this campaign?" Obviously, Cain's answer is going to be no. I'm more interested in why Gregory jumped from "stupid people" to race. Gregory next displays the new Newsweek cover, which calls Cain "the Anti-Obama," and starts to put together a question: "You've actually talked a bit about race, though, and you've created a contrast between yourself and your experience as an African-American, a term you don't like, by the way."
So suddenly the topic is the terminology of race: African-American or black American, which Cain prefers. Gregory asks why. Cain says:
Because my roots go back through slavery in this country. Yes, they came from Africa, but the roots of my heritage are in the United States of America. So I consider myself a black American.That's a very rich statement. Slavery is a heritage. But Gregory goes for the implicit distinction between Cain and Obama: "So you draw some distinction between yourself and your experiences as a black man in America and the experience of President Obama."
Cain says:
Absolutely. I came from very humble beginnings. My mother was a maid, my father was a barber and janitor and a chauffeur. We, we had to, we had to learn--do things the old-fashioned way. We had to work for it. I--my parents never saw themselves as a victim, so I didn't learn how to be a victim. I didn't have anything given to me. I had to work very hard in order to be able to go to school and work my way through school....Notice how simply and vividly he struck a chord — the classic black American experience — and made it resonate for anyone who works for living. There is a quality of nobility, that fits with the idea of heritage. Gregory is at a complete loss, I think, to do anything with this:
MR. GREGORY: You actually said President Obama's outside the mainstream. So you're making a different, more of a social cultural background distinction between you and the president.YET MORE: I liked the way, when asked to name his model for the ideal Supreme Court justice, he focused on Clarence Thomas:
MR. CAIN: More experiential. Look at his experiences vs. my experiences. It was more at a contrast of experiential differences than anything else.
MR. GREGORY: Let's talk about foreign policy...
I believe that Justice Clarence Thomas, despite all of the attacks that he gets from the left, he basically rules and makes his decisions, in my opinion, based upon the Constitution and solid legal thinking. Justice Clarence Thomas is one of my models.Gregory declines to follow up about what the unfairness was. He moves on to the topic of Cain's wife Gloria, who's been invisible so far. He gave a lovely explanation:
MR. GREGORY: Has he been targeted unfairly, you think?
MR. CAIN: I think he has been targeted unfairly.
My wife and I, we have a family life, and she is maintaining the calmness and the tranquility of that family life so, when I do get a day off of the campaign trail, I can go home and enjoy my family.She's his wife, not America's wife. Home is a refuge. That's a good traditionalist message.
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258 comments:
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This is what people like David Gregory should have done 3 years ago with the Lightworker.
The objections to 9-9-9 are what's needed. If Herman can knock them down - fine, if not, that's what the process is for.
Too bad it's only applied to Republicans and Conservatives.
PS Somewhat OT: Karl Rove's warnings about the nature of Herman's campaign have since been raised by Larry Sabato, as well. Simply because Rove noted them doesn't make them invalid.
Wow, the guy doing the interviewing is an idiot.
He can't understand that State and Federal taxes are separate issues?
This isn't difficult. He sounds like he's being purposefully dense.
Also, the fact that he's an idiot isn't a statement that I think that Cain is right, only that what Cain is trying to explain isn't muddled (at least at the point Gregory is pretending he can't understand the notion of replacing the Federal tax system and insisting that a Federal sales tax is actually a State tax.)
Herman Frankencain--the Afro-American Ayn Rand.
Really a stupid creature
Raise taxes on the poor and working class, and magically that will create jobs. Talk about a religion. Republicans hate working people with a passion, it's amazing people still vote for them. You just know you're going to get screwed.
And neither J nor garage explain the basis for their statements, they just argue by assertion.
"This isn't about behavior" is also a brilliant insight into liberal understanding on Gregory's part.
Cain: "Let's try this one more time."
hee hee, I like that.
J and garage hate him? Hmm. That tells me I need to take a closer look at Herman Cain and that he is electable.
After watching that, now you know why Herman Cain is my friend. And you may have gotten to see the next President in action.
One problem with the 999 plan is that it's going to encourage more imports and drop production of goods here in the US. Every time a manufacturer or even a farmer incurs a normal expense such as buying raw materials, feed or seed, they are now going to incur a 9% premium. Sure they could pass on those costs but those elevated prices can be undercut by imports.
I don't think this plan is well thought out.
"He can't understand that State and Federal taxes are separate issues?"
I think what Gregory was saying is that if you add 9% federal sales tax on top of the already existing state and local sales tax, people are going to make their purchase decisions looking at maybe a 17% sales tax. Isn't that going to be horrible?
Now, think about it though. The tax is very transparent, the opposite of a VAT. People can see what the government is taking, very consciously. Maybe they'll rein in their consuming. But maybe that isn't so terrible. Let's all wake up and be more conscious of what we're doing. Let's be independent decisionmakers with more control. Let's see what the government is taking and be vigilant.
I found that all quite interesting. But I understand Gregory's point. Shoppers will see a shocking new sales tax percentage.
Cain keeps impressing . . .
garage mahal said...
Raise taxes on the poor and working class, and magically that will create jobs. Talk about a religion. Republicans hate working people with a passion, it's amazing people still vote for them. You just know you're going to get screwed.
10/16/11 1:35 PM
They should pay more in taxes since most government spending benefits them. How many upper middle class people live in section 8 housing, get EBT cards, WIC and related programs, Medicaid and so. Let them pay for their benefits. Its not like they are doing me a favor with my tax dollars.
No lil Synova--the Laugher curve BS (which Cain alludes to at times) has been refuted numerous times. Receipts increase with higher taxes--ie, there is more money (for deficit, DoD, programs,etc). Cainonomics is another libertarian scam--flat tax, yall. What that means is a give-away for the very rich. Little or nothing for middle/working class (some say a net loss).
Is Cain running for Vice President? That's the vibe I get. He's angling for a Romney-Cain ticket. And his price for joining that ticket is to be put in charge of restructuring the tax code. If that's his plan, that's not a bad plan at all.
Why do I think this? He and Romney are very nice to each other. Calling each other "smart," for instance. They are the only two businessmen in the race. It's a very nice fit, particularly if Cain can energize the right.
What's interesting about Cain is that the entire focus of his campaign seems to be on his tax plan. His desire to restructure and simplify the tax code seems to be stronger than his desire to be President.
One thing that's refreshing about him is that he admits to his ignorance. He knows so little about foreign policy. Doesn't know what a "neoconservative" is. Doesn't know what the "right to return" is. It's actually a mark of intelligence, to understand what you don't know.
Does everyone realize that 999 replaces the payroll tax that hits lower income people the worst?
Aren't some people at the lowest end paying way over 9% in payroll taxes? It seems to me the lowest paid people will get a tax break.
Gregory is a typical arrogant, stupid liberal hack who asks stupid questions based on false assumptions. What is blowing his mind is that Cain isn't playing the game according to Gregory's rules. Cain questions Gregory's assumptions and Gregory can't handle that.
Besides NBC is a house organ of the democratic party along with CBS and ABC and their cable divisions. No intelligent person actually expects these networks to actually employ real journalists. Only JournoLists, you know, political hacks, like their mentors Pravda and Itzvestia employed.
"I think what Gregory was saying is that if you add 9% federal sales tax on top of the already existing state and local sales tax, people are going to make their purchase decisions looking at maybe a 17% sales tax. Isn't that going to be horrible?"
I think that's what the WSJ (IIRC?) said, and Gregory quoted them. But that Gregory muddled it up with some odd conclusion that this means more State taxes.
It seemed to me that he didn't understand, at all, what he was quoting.
"Doesn't know what a "neoconservative" is."
I'm going to write about that part of the transcript, but that was not a Palinesque mind-blank. (I'm thinking of when she was asked about the "Bush doctrine.") That was a refusal to take bait. He said what he knows is conservatism.
If he had embarked on a showing that he knew neoconservatism, he would have gone off track.
Not sure I agree with 9-9-9, but can anyone honestly defend the current tax system?
Agree with you about sales taxes. A hefty sales tax will cause people to seriously think about the cost of government. Liberals like to say that our tax system is regressive when you factor in the payroll taxes that every worker pays until they make a lot of money. Yes, but do they also acknowledge that the payroll taxes are being used to make deficits appear smaller.
Don't much like Perry, but he deserves loads of credit for publicly saying the truth that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme and it was designed that way.
@Synova Gregory misspoke at one point. You're right: "If I'm already paying state taxes, and I have a new Cain administration national sales tax, I've got more state taxes."
He meant "more sales taxes." I think that's just a slip, but Cain did well slamming him right down. The difficult point -- that I and the WSJ made -- didn't get examined, because Gregory goofed at the key point.
Props to Cain for thinking big with the idea of throwing out the entire federal tax code and starting over.
But:
It. Will. Never. Happen.
The tax code re-write will have to come from Congress. The critters there-- of both parties-- have been bought and paid for by the most powerful interest groups in the country. And those interest groups have waaaaay more sway than pesky voters. Voters just need to be thrown a bone or two near election time; or, if you have a Texas swagger and nice hair, you don't even need to offer that. Interest groups, on the other hand, actually care about policy.
Take the REALTORS®, for instance. The National Association of REALTORS®, the state associations, and the local associations in every community in the country. They will object in two big ways to Cain's plan: First, he apparently wants to get rid of the mortgage interest deduction; and second, he apparently thinks the sales tax should apply to new homes... Why, the REALTORS® will ask, does Cain want to inhibit home ownership? Why is he against an "ownership society"? The REALTORS® will demand that these two exceptions to the plan be carved out, and the Congresscritters will oblige because they know who their masters are. The members of Congress are more scared of the N.A.R. than of their constituents.
And that's just the REALTORS®. Think about what happens when this same scenario occurs will all interest groups across the board.
The fact is that many people and groups have worked hard and paid a lot of money to make the tax code the way it is. It might seem convoluted, even corrupt, but it is exactly how Congress intended it to be.
Most of the other Presidential candidates, save Paul and Johnson, are plugged-in to the system, and know who their masters are. The Republican party would never select a candidate who puts the interests of the American people ahead of the interests of the interest groups-- NEVER!
That's why you see Perry and Romney and even Bachmann take on Cain's plan so strongly. They are politicians and know what game they are playing; Cain is a businessman, and his political inexperience shines through.
I would vote for Cain over Obama. I would vote for Paul or Johnson over Obama. If it's any other Republican, I'm going to be sitting this election out.
J...You are smarter than me, so much smarter that I find you difficult to understand at times.
But I do remember the malaise days after the 1973 Oil Embargo to punish Nixon for saving Israel from extermination and the oil price shock upset the world while the Watergate hangover let Jimmy Carter take over. The economy was in the tank with no way out.
How did that old fool Reagan do what he did with Tax Cuts for the 200k to 300k earners of 50%?
I still remember that he thereby lead is to economic and subsequent Cold War victory just in time before the USSR's planned European Third World War could launch with intermediate nukes.
All of that came out after the fall of the USSR.
Do you remember it?
You get a big "fairness" vibe from Gregory in reading the transcript. The idea that not making the "rich" pay more is treason.
garage mahal said...
Republicans hate working people with a passion
Republicans are working people.
Ann Althouse said...
"He can't understand that State and Federal taxes are separate issues?"
I think what Gregory was saying is that if you add 9% federal sales tax on top of the already existing state and local sales tax, people are going to make their purchase decisions looking at maybe a 17% sales tax. Isn't that going to be horrible?
Now, think about it though. The tax is very transparent, the opposite of a VAT. People can see what the government is taking, very consciously. Maybe they'll rein in their consuming. But maybe that isn't so terrible. Let's all wake up and be more conscious of what we're doing. Let's be independent decisionmakers with more control. Let's see what the government is taking and be vigilant.
I found that all quite interesting. But I understand Gregory's point. Shoppers will see a shocking new sales tax percentage.
Good point, but maybe this will be the beginning of a move to rein in state sales taxes, many of which are 6% or greater.
J said...
No lil Synova--the Laugher curve BS (which Cain alludes to at times) has been refuted numerous times. Receipts increase with higher taxes--ie, there is more money (for deficit, DoD, programs,etc).
No, the bull belongs purely to J (surprise!!!).
The IRS has shown any number of times revenue has gone up when taxes go down.
And vice versa.
J needs to go back to the Speedy Gonzales marathon for more Looney Tunes Spanish.
WV "dropitin" (no kidding) The Lefties' view of taxation.
Saint Croix said...
An astute observation. Foreign policy is irrelevant if the economy is in the tank. If the economy is recovering then foreign policy becomes more important as we have more clout to wield. Not knowing about the Palestinian construct is a good thing. A president Cain can start with a clean slate and not the Arabist State dept. view or the leftist assumptions and assertions. He could start by withholding all US funds to the UN until such time it acts more in our favor. Among other things the UN (and we fund) are the Palestinian refugee camps. Its time to stop funding them. Let the other Arabs support them. We don't have to and there is no benefit in doing so for us. If the UN does not act more in accordance to our positions, quit it and kick it out of NYC. Without the US the UN is nothing. It needs us more than we need it.
If you really think about it, the whole concept of "income" is an utterly silly one to use as the basis of taxation, especially compared to consumption.
A consumption tax, by definition, ecourages conservation of resources, including saving money.
The concept we have of "income" though, consistently encourages people not to save, and to spend extravagantly.
Suppose you've got two people who make $50,000 a year. Person A spends every penny, and eventually, when he qualifies for social security, gets a sizeable benefit but pays little taxes since his income is "low".
Person B saves $20K a year for 30 years. He's generally paying capital gains and although he qualifies for social security benefits at the same rate, he now pays taxes on his savings as he spends them during retirement.
And of course, what those savings really are is making money available to other people. My savings are someone else's borrowing for (hopefully) productive activity.
It's called a consumption tax which rewards those who save and invest. Saving and investing create jobs. Americans save too little and spend too much.
One advantage of a sales tax is it hits the underground, cash economy which is huge.
The current payroll tax is regressive in that lower income people pay a large percentage of their gross income as Anne pointed out.
The poor person who buys a used car pays no tax. The rich person who buys a new Porche pays a bundle.
I remember when I started doing my own taxes a few years ago, it took me two hours to figure out 1)whether I qualified for earned income credit and 2) whether I was subject to alternative minimum tax. I wasn't even close in either category, but I was afraid I'd commit some heinous tax evasion if I didn't figure it out, and after I had I still wasn't confident that I'd done it right. Clearly this system is too complicated. It got this way because taxes are the only weapon available for democratic governments to do social engineering. Reward behaviors the government finds appealing, punish those they don't. The left will fight 999 all the way, because they love social engineering.
What's nice about sales taxes is that they are inherently progressive. The more stuff you buy, the more taxes you pay. The less stuff you buy, the less taxes you pay.
Sam Walton (who never spent money and drove around in his pick-up truck) would not pay a lot of taxes under Cain's plan.
Donald Trump (who spends a lot of money and is very ostentatious) would see his taxes go up a lot.
In theory a sales tax should cause people to save money and spend less. It should strengthen the dollar and keep inflation at bay.
I love the idea of a simple tax system. Far more honest. Far more fair. A complicated tax system favors the wealthy and the connected.
Also the beautiful thing about sales taxes is that criminals, illegal aliens, and the entire underground economy are now paying taxes. You almost completely eliminate cheating and you make compliance far more easier.
It's a provocative idea and I'm glad he's pushing it.
politics of Galthouse--
Looks like Cain's 999 BS will lower AA's taxes the most. So, Cain is AA's man.
Doesn't get much deeeper than that, garag
It could be that people prefer invisible taxes that they can chose not to know about to a potentially 17% combined sales tax.
It would be shocking to have that tax so obvious, but if the tax burden added bit by bit along the way is removed, there isn't any reason why actual end-costs of consumer goods would go up.
I wouldn't mind an interview and discussion with someone about whether or not that would work (and yes, it does involve behavior, Gregory).
It makes me think of that Congressman (?) from Minnesota that was recently quoted saying that an increase in government regulation would create jobs because companies have to hire people for compliance.
Obviously an idiot, but also obviously the COST of compliance is not in dispute by anyone. Not if someone can claim that the hiring done in the private sector to comply to bigger and bigger government is an economic good.
And all of those expenses are added, along with the actual taxes paid, to every single consumer item we buy.
9% added to whatever State sales tax one has would be shocking. The rest of it that we never see is despicable.
Anytime you move the point of taxation downstream in the earn-save-spend cycle, you tax income twice.
Income was taxed once when earned; and now when you move the income tax to a sales tax, the same income (now as savings) is taxed again when spent.
Thus a 9% sales tax instantly confiscates 9% of your savings on which taxes have already been paid.
It's one thing to start with a sales tax, but another to replace an income tax with a sales tax.
The latter is confiscatory.
The correct fix is a flat income tax, no deductions, no brackets.
The rate would be very low, is positive point 1.
Everybody would have to vote on taxes that everybody pays, is positive point number 2.
A study years ago found that every income person thought that 25% was the most that the government should take from anybody. What was surprising was the agreement.
So a progressive tax converts a national agreement to class warfare. (Even better than me and the rich guys both paying 25% is the rich guys paying 50% and me paying nothing, given that choice, which politicians will be quick to offer.)
So I'd guess you'd have to Constitutional-amendment in a flat tax, so that didn't happen.
The 999 plan doesn't avoid that either. Soon there would be a progressive first 9, rising to 50 for high incomes.
This statement by David Gregory,
This isn't about behavior, Mr. Cain, this is about whether you pay ... more in taxes
is a serious contender for "stupidest assertion ever made about tax policy."
Neither Gregory nor very many others who freely comment on this subject seem capable of understanding what Cain's claiming. Here it is, by the numbers:
1. The current marginal tax rate on workers in the lowest income bracket is about 23.5% (the combined effect of the 15% payroll tax and the 10% marginal income-tax rate). Replacing it with a 9% income-tax rate and a 9% sales-tax rate reduces the marginal tax rate on low-income workers to about 17.5% of their pre-tax income. This, along with an increased demand for workers due to the lower tax burden on businesses, will lead to higher employment among low-skilled workers as well as greater net consumption by previously employed workers.
2. Among the newly employed, incomes rise and consequently so do taxes paid by them. This is the effect of Cain's plan that Gregory and others decry, completely oblivious to the fact that the previously unemployed workers are better off.
3. If, in addition, the newly imposed non-tax barriers to employment were eliminated, employment (and so incomes and taxes paid on those incomes) would increase further. When all means-tested policies are taken into account, the current effective marginal tax rate on potential low-and middle-income earners can easily exceed 100%. It's easy to figure out the behavioral effect of getting rid of those labor-market distortions.
4. Whether the total taxes paid by employers rose or fell would depend on their behavioral response to lower tax rates. I don't know if Cain right about this or not. But neither does Gregory. The point is that the effect of Cain's tax plan on business-tax revenue is entirely dependent on behavior. And it's behavior that's hard to estimate reliably because it's outside the range of our recent experience.
5. The total taxes paid by high-income earners as a percent of income would certainly fall, despite their loss of huge tax deductions. However, their total taxes paid could rise, again depending on those behavioral responses that David Gregory thinks are some sort of delusion on Herman Cain's part.
It's absolutely necessary to check Cain's revenue forecasts, but it's complete nonsense to think that they can be discredited on the basis of simplistic arithmetic arguments.
Oh lookie, David Gregory finally "speaks truth to power"
*snicker*
"I love the idea of a simple tax system. Far more honest. Far more fair. A complicated tax system favors the wealthy and the connected."
The wealthy can afford to hire experts. So any attempt to "stick it to the rich" is certain to hurt those who are not wealthy who are caught in the periphery, can't afford expert help, and must somehow comply to the complicated rules.
And the corporations simply pass the expense along... so the middle class and poor get hit twice.
And we're all supposed to believe that the *desire* to help the middle or lower class excuses it all.
It could be that people prefer invisible taxes that they can chose not to know about to a potentially 17% combined sales tax.
From my understanding, thats one of the goals of the 999: transparency. If people truly understand how much they are paying in taxes, they'll be less tolerant of government spending and corruption.
I'm informed by a Japanese friend that in Japan taxes are deducted from pay and occasionally you get a check back from the government. No forms, no filing, nothing. Of course, the Japanese have very little perceived need for social engineering.
One presumes this would require repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment.
PS Most state sales taxes (Wiki) are in the ~6% range; a few southern and western states have 4%, as does NY(?!?) with local additions
"Looks like Cain's 999 BS will lower AA's taxes the most. So, Cain is AA's man."
I have no idea how much the change would help me. I have big tax deductions for home mortgage interest and state taxes.
And I've never said Cain is my man. I trashed him after the debate.
I've never voted based on who's offering me the most money.
Wrong again Edu-Nixon--occasionally there is a slight increase of receipts with lower taxes--an anomaly (google that one, trash). But the vast majority of the time receipts increase with higher taxes. The laugher curve is as much a joke as your political writing ,perp.
If Cain will expand the 9% sales tax to political contributions, the deficit will go away the next month.
Garage would love that one too. Think of the Koch brothers wealth flowing into the Treasury faster than the Pelosi family can steal it.
Plus every hidden cash contribution will put the Politicians in jeopardy of Jail for evasion.
J, You've provided some amusing comic relief here from time to time. This isn't one of those times.
Your reading skills are way below your inflated estimate of your intelligence. The fact that the number of workers firms want to hire will increase when taxes on workers fall has nothing at all to do with supply-side economics (by which I assume you mean to refer to the Laffer curve).
Think before you comment again, idiot.
Cain nailed it with his answer to the 3 a.m. question:
`First of all, consider my philosophy to foreign policy and my principles.' That's where you start.
"raising taxes on the poor"
Not really. Making existing taxes (excise taxes, income taxes on middlemen, etc) visible and replacing them in whole or in part with a 9% sales tax. Further, it makes the tax wholly avoidable if you by used rather than new. It seems to me that few poor folks buy new cars, for example, and probably buy a lot more second-hand than the rich do.
And this ignores the fact that rich folks have armies of lawyers to avoid taxes for them.
According to Wikipedia, federal corporate taxes range from 15 to 35%. Cain's argument is that these taxes (along with the payroll taxes that corporations pay) are built in to the prices of everything you buy, and that if you replace current corporate taxes with a 9% rate and a 9% national sales tax, the overall price of things will remain the same or drop. So on paper some people in the lowest brackets will be paying more in taxes, but they'll actually have to pay out less.
Whether this will work out this way, I don't know. But those who argue against 999 have to address it, and most of the criticisms I've seen so far have no interest in doing so. They reach the "raise taxes on the poor" conclusion and stop there, the proper attack having been made.
The Fair Taxers make the same argument as Cain. They want to replace the income tax with a 23% sales tax. Cain doesn't mention it often, but 999 is supposed to be an intermediate step to the Fair Tax, which he calls Phase 2.
BTW, where does Gregory get off talking down to a self-made millionaire businessman (and former Fed official) regarding finance? Does Gregory have some special knowledge? Are his "experts" more expert than Cain (seemingly not if they forgot excise taxes)?
Or is it just because Gregory's talking to a black man?
What an ass that Katy Kay is. She says that Cain did not answer the questions about state taxes. Perhaps he should have said, "Don't blame me if your state taxes are high. Talk to your governor."
I live next door to NH. Do Katy Kay and David Gregory know what NH's sales tax rate is? It is ZERO, NADA!
I'm retired and low-income. My Federal income tax came to about 6.6% of my gross income last year. I think Mr. Gregory is correct in thinking that a great many lower income folks will pay more taxes, especially those who are retired and thought they were done with paying into Social Security, only to now have the FICA "replaced" with a sales tax.
For my part, a sales tax will not encourage me to save and invest. I've got nothing left over to save or invest! And I don't need any extra encouragement to "rein in my spending".
1. The current marginal tax rate on workers in the lowest income bracket is about 23.5% (the combined effect of the 15% payroll tax and the 10% marginal income-tax rate). Replacing it with a 9% income-tax rate and a 9% sales-tax rate reduces the marginal tax rate on low-income workers to about 17.5% of their pre-tax income.
Workers only pay half of the 15% payroll tax, or 7.65%. So it's a tax hike. And ending the payroll tax would also end Social Seurity and Medicare, which when people find this out, Cain's stupid plan will meet the death it deserves.
"This, along with an increased demand for workers due to the lower tax burden on businesses, will lead to higher employment among low-skilled workers as well as greater net consumption by previously employed workers.”
You assume business aren’t hiring because of high taxes. But businesses are sitting on record levels of cash reserves. What if business aren’t hiring because of low demand? Commenters here are applauding 9-9-9 as a means of lowering demand even further. Sounds rather risky to me.
@ChipS 2:23pm
Thanks for your exposition. It's the best statement I've yet seen on the subject, and I will quote you directly many times in the future.
P.S. It's time to ban J.
Gregory was apoplectic because Cain, should he be the nominee, is an insoluble problem for libs. Lose a significant percentage of the black vote and ALL is lost for them and they know it.
The liberal establishment must really be worried about Cain. Their token African American newspaper columnist is calling Cain a racist.
J said...
Wrong again Edu-Nixon--occasionally there is a slight increase of receipts with lower taxes--an anomaly (google that one, trash). But the vast majority of the time receipts increase with higher taxes. The laugher curve is as much a joke as your political writing ,perp.
Lie. The IRS figures are consistent and across the board.
As I say, go back to the Cartoon Network and brush up on vocabulary.
Does anyone here think that Cain will be the nominee?
MR. GREGORY: "Let's talk about squirrels."
"Lie. The IRS figures are consistent and across the board.”
So if we had a flat 2% tax and reduced it to a flat 1% tax, revenues would increase?
Meade said...
"J and garage hate him?"
Worse. They don't hate Cain. They hate what Cain is--a black conservative.
In short they hate him for the color of his skin, combined with his political outlook. Were he a liberal, they would not hate him. Were he white, ditto.
I call racism and I'm not kidding.
"And ending the payroll tax would also end Social Seurity and Medicare...."
I don't know what Cain's positions on those programs are, but doing away with FICA doesn't imply that they're going away. Payroll taxes are already used for general govt expenses- there is no *lockbox*. Seems to me that getting rid of FICA in itself is just getting rid of an accounting trick. There's no reason that they couldn't be funded out of general revenues.
Since payroll taxes are regressive I'm in favor of getting rid of them generally. But Dems are interested in maintaining the illusion that they're "accounts" that people pay into and then get paid out of later.
@Althouse-
And I've never said Cain is my man.
But that does seem to be the vibe that your readers are getting from this post.
Cain being an impressive person doesn't make 999 an impressive idea.
Garage: "Workers only pay half of the 15% payroll tax, or 7.65%."
No, Garage. The economic cost of the tax is going to fall on the worker, regardless of who actually sends the check to the government. There is a given amount that the employer is willing to pay for compensation. If the government takes part of that amount, it reduces the amount available for the worker.
Ultimately all takes fall on people, not on companies.
LA Times: “The poor would pay more while the rich would have their taxes cut, with no guarantee that economic growth will increase and a good reason to believe that the budget deficit will increase,” Bartlett wrote.
That’s because two of Cain’s three 9s – the income tax and the national sales tax -- would disproportionately impact the 47% of tax filers who don’t pay any federal income tax under the current system – many of whom are elderly or poor.
Herman Frankencain says he's pals with Alan Greenspam. 999--Greenspam-ism-de-reg in action
Fdf5C etc... I know Mr Cain, and he will keep winning the Tea Party and conservatives who will never vote for Romney.
The primaries will expose that.
The only question left is whether the GOP wants to win in 2012 so long as they think they can take safe majorities in the House and Senate.
That I cannot answer for you.
Cain is no friend of the GOP Congress gang who enrich themselves either way.
David wrong again, trash---some of us are above you biases and logical fallacies. Greenspam, or Ayn Rand, Paul Ryan. Or Herman. Same shit, whatever color it is
@garage--Your deep insight about who pays the SS tax is hilarious, in light of your completely opposite view of who pays state employees' retirement benefits.
Hint: The answer is the same in both cases.
In case you can't see that unaided, here's some help:
Right now an employer writes a check to the IRS that represents the sum of the "employer's share" and the "employee's share" of SS taxes. You think that means that the employer and employee are sharing the SS tax equally.
OK, then, suppose the law were changed, thereby requiring that employers pay the full 15%. What do you think would happen? The same thing that you have previously (and correctly) argued happens when the State of Wisconsin picks up the full tab for its employees' health insurance. Workers' "income" as reported on their W-2 forms would fall by the amount of the employer's extra share, but their take-home pay would remain exactly the same. Nothing at all about the employment relationship is affected by alleged allocation of the tax shares; the check the employer sends to the IRS is unaffected by anything that doesn't change the combined employer/employee rates.
The way in which the full tax is ultimately shared between workers and employers depends on their respective behavioral responses to the pre-tax and after-tax wage. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the way that the SS tax check written to the IRS is arbitrarily split into an "employer's share" and an "employee's share."
Didn't we have a black man four years ago-- with relatively little political experience-- build his candidacy for President around bold plans and transparent government? And didn't this black man, once he got elected, pursue the same-old same-old status quo policies?
Why will this new black man do any differently?
I think these black guys have us Americans figured out. Say what you need to say to get the power. Then suck it up, America, 'cuz the Black Priests of the Status Quo rule your fuckin' ass.
Besides, didn't Cain kill Abel, and isn't he the first murderer of all existence? Combined with 9-9-9 upside down and Bachmann logic, and the fact that this incarnation of Cain is a negro, the only possible sensible Republican conclusion is that Cain is the Antichrist.
That was a good performance by Cain. One reason I think he would make a good President is that he is accustomed to working for his place at the table and proving himself. One disadvantage to being a political outsider is that once you are elected, you have to work with the insiders who in all likelihood will look down their noses at you and think you are not worthy to be their boss. Based on his history, Cain should be able to handle this kind of situation well. He's a black man who rose to positions of leadership in companies in the South during the early days of civil rights. He had to prove himself again and again and he evidently was able to do that successfully without making enemies. In other words- I think the guy is used to working successfully with people who underestimate him.
I was watching and was hoping Cain would have told Gregory that he and his colleagues are part of the uninformed, closed minded group.
"The way in which the full tax is ultimately shared between workers and employers depends on their respective behavioral responses to the pre-tax and after-tax wage.”
Cain assumes that every employer would pass the “employer portion” savings from abolishing FICA...on to the employee. I doubt many would but I also doubt we’ll ever find out.
David said Ultimately all takes fall on people, not on companies.
This is exactly what Herman Cain knows since he has looked at business plans. Taxes are treated just like rent or electricity in that they are considered costs. The price of goods sold therefore reflect rent, electricity and taxes, amongst other items.
Unlike the average lifetime office holder, Cain knows that corporations are tax collectors, not tax payers and that all taxes are ultimately borne by persons.
If anyone cares to do the thought experiment, it can be quite illuminating: What are the ramifications if the government taxes what I spend rather than what I earn?
Imagine if it were a clean slate and ponder the results.
* Illegal immigrants would not be able to by-pass paying taxes to the same degree as currently. This would mitigate the costs of hosting them, though not completely.
* The current tax code provides incentives for certain activities or ways of life. With a sales tax, any such incentives would be much, much more transparent, and thereby easier to bring to the public forum.
* Gay and think you should get a marriage credit? No problem. Sales tax doesn't look at your orientation.
* Taxing spending vs. earning provides a heavy incentive to save. There's no penalty for putting your money in the bank and earning interest off of it. Or a money market, or the stock market, etc.
* If you really start to look at proposals like the FairTax (with an open-minded, 'let's just imagine what-if' POV), eliminating hidden taxes would be a big plus. That goes for any proposed system. Right now, the widget I buy at the store has several taxes built-in to it. As the consumer, I don't see that price as being made up of taxes, but they're there.
* Continue on, if you wish.
Dead Julius...I know Herman Cain and you can relax. Herman is not now and never has been the Antichrist.
Antichrist is a substitute replacement for Christ who will exercise super natural powers and receive worship.
Herman's got no super natural powers, and he does not need or ask for worship. His natural intelligence and leadership style is all that he needs.
Guess again.
Gawd, I could go for some nice authentic Mexican enchiladas right now. Mmmm....
"That’s because two of Cain’s three 9s – the income tax and the national sales tax -- would disproportionately impact the 47% of tax filers who don’t pay any federal income tax under the current system – many of whom are elderly or poor."
But the working poor do pay payroll taxes. The left protests the factoid of 47% of Americans not paying income taxes when it's convenient to do so- since they pay FICA, but don't protest when it's not convenient. FICA is rolled into to 9% income tax under 999.
And what percentage of the poor's spending is really them paying for corporate taxes? If those go down, it could be beneficial.
That LA Times take is what I was referring to when I criticized the criticism of 999 so far. I would like to see a non-partisan analysis of the plan. Anyone have a link?
Democrats are fully supportive of several regressive taxes: the payroll tax, alcohol & tobacco excise taxes, various energy taxes, and the home mortgage deduction (they're with Reps on the last one). I don't see how that have any moral standing to complain about regressivity in general. The media rarely addresses these.
"* Taxing spending vs. earning provides a heavy incentive to save. There's no penalty for putting your money in the bank and earning interest off of it. Or a money market, or the stock market, etc.”
This is very true and it is appealing to me. It could also be a massive job killer.
Dead Julius said...
Didn't we have a black man four years ago-- with relatively little political experience-- build his candidacy for President around bold plans and transparent government? And didn't this black man, once he got elected, pursue the same-old same-old status quo policies?
No, that one was a machine politician who had never accomplished anything on his own in his life, spent a dozen years voting "Present", and built his campaign on the sort of flim-flammery heretofore reserved for medicine shows and Bernie Madoff.
To add to Cpt. Spaulding's observations, a consumption tax has some export advantages as well.
The price of goods includes taxes, such as corporate taxes. But, sales taxes are not applied to export sales (as I assume is the case in the 999 plan).
Hence, with lower corporate taxes, the price of goods produced will drop and those goods can be exported at the lower price.
This has given VAT-driven countries an export price advantage over the US practice of taxing income so shifting to a consumption tax would help export sales.
Cain is definitely getting the right wing whining and victimhood down pat. I'm a victim. Clarence Thomas is a victim. Conservatism is a victim. Good advisors.
@t-guy-
Well, you are really running with this "I know Herman Cain" bit in this here comment section.
He's already got my vote, man... I mean, in the general election that is, not in the primary because I already promised my primary vote to Ron Paul in an ancient Elysian cum libertarian blood ritual.
“The Negro's great stumbling block in the drive toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice.”
-- Martin Luther King
Cain is able. He's not perfect. Just significantly better.
LOVE Cain.
And, the 9-9-9 proposal is just that - a proposal. It will have to be mulled over, and make its way through the legislative process, perhaps be tested in limited areas to find out what works and what doesn't.
The way Health Insurance (Obamacare) should have been. With everything on the table. Tort reform, etc.
Do you even imagine that this intelligent, thoughtful man would EVER allow a debacle like Pelosi and Reid's ramming it through without that process? Without discussion. Without even reading it. Deeming it passed. Never.
Compared to Obama, Herman Cain is Solomon. Wise. Considerate, Respectful of both the Constitution and the structure of our nation.
2012 cannot come fast enough.
And David Gregory - pffffffftttttttt. Laughable.
A Long String of Seemingly Unrelated Letters and Numbers said:
Cain assumes that every employer would pass the “employer portion” savings from abolishing FICA...on to the employee.
Rather than claim to be able to read Herman Cain's mind, I'll just refer you to NYT economics blogger and prominent academic economist Casey Mulligan, who estimates that a every 1 percentage-point cut in the payroll tax would stimulate employment by about 1 million jobs.
Dead Julius: Didn't we have a black man four years ago-- with relatively little political experience-- build his candidacy for President around bold plans and transparent government?
Shelby Steele would say we elected an African man four years ago, and only now are we talking about electing a black man, the first one in the history of our country.
Resale shops will make a killing.
Workers only pay half of the 15% payroll tax, or 7.65%. So it's a tax hike.
Bullshit.
That's one of the word games leftists play to persuade people who lack critical thinking skills.
If all of the money were considered the employee's wage and taxed at 15.3% it would flow exactly the same way it does now -- the employee would see none of it, and the employer would remit exactly the same amount to the government. The only difference would be that the employee would be reminded every pay period that he's paying 15.3%.
The whole idea is to get people to accept the tax by telling them their employers pay half of it. Sadly so many Americans are innumerate that it works.
David Gregory =s polished journalist? Ya gotta be kidding he's a know it all partisan hack. No surprise a guy like Cain wiped the flor with him.
mishu: One problem with the 999 plan is that it's going to encourage more imports and drop production of goods here in the US. Every time a manufacturer or even a farmer incurs a normal expense such as buying raw materials, feed or seed, they are now going to incur a 9% premium.
I believe I heard Cain say that American ingredients would be exempt from the 9% tax.
On Cain generally- I though he did very well on MTP today. But I disagree with Ann on one thing. I thought he didn't actually know what "neo-conservative" meant. He's shown similar blind spots before, and here I'm referring to when he didn't know what "right of return" meant in the context of an Israeli/Palestinian discussion. It may be ok for a candidate not to know every term in every controversy, but Obama the policy wonk could score some points against him in a debate.
Also Cain's pronouncements on Muslims have been rather extreme.
I'm intrigued, but not sold.
Dead Julius,
Why will this new black man do any differently?
Because this new black man has the good character that the black man from four years ago completely lacked.
In the end it really does boil down to character, and American voters have disregarded that fact to our detriment.
Garage is a typical liberal who loves all black people but cant stand individual blacks, especially those who dont conform to what he believes is the right way for blacks to think or act Very typical of liberal racists.
Mitochondri-Allie: Resale shops will make a killing.
It will also make more sense for people to purchase things which last a long time and can be resold. Quality products that are made in America rather than the flimsy things you get from China.
“The Negro's great stumbling block in the drive toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice.”
-- Martin Luther King
King was wrong.
The biggest stumbling block to Negroes is Negroes who are more devoted to feathering their own nests at the expense of other Negroes, than they are to freedom.
"Rather than claim to be able to read Herman Cain's mind, I'll just refer you to NYT economics blogger and prominent academic economist Casey Mulligan, who estimates that a every 1 percentage-point cut in the payroll tax would stimulate employment by about 1 million jobs”
Bruce Bartlett (and many other economists) believe that while in some economic circumstances this would be the case, the current lack of demand would negate this.
But my point wasn’t about unemployment rates. And I wasn’t trying to reading Cain’s mind. Cain stated that under his plan, the tax burden would be reduced for most people since corporations would be passing along tax savings to consumers and employees. I was questioning whether those savings would indeed trickle down.
Mitochondri-Allie said...
Resale shops will make a killing
That occurred to me too. I'm a habitue of thrift shops, and I have never bought a new car. Never will. I was raised by bargain hunters.
For the most part, I like Mr Cain. I do not like the national sales tax:
-Why should retailers be more of a tax collecting agency for the government? Why should they pay credit card fees on the 9% sales tax they are forced to collect?
-Do you really think smaller concerns (not your typical business) will report all taxable sales? It will be like a flea market.
-Don't like adding 9% to the purchase price of all goods.
Chip S.
A Long String of Seemingly Unrelated Letters and Numbers said:
Let's just nickname him "UUID", since that's what the string represents.
Garage, if you took the trouble to learn the backgrouns of Thomas and Cain you would know that victimhood is not in their marrows. You would also learn the difference between their and our President's upbringing. You will not trouble yourself however and will continue to made absurd assertions and reveal your distaste for black individuals.
I agree that Cain did a good job in the interview, and tax simplification is a worthy goal, but I really don't want a VAT. Once that precedent is set, it'll be easy to raise the rates (just as it has been in Europe where the VAT started out low but didn't stay that way).
Jason (the commenter) said...
Dead Julius: Didn't we have a black man four years ago-- with relatively little political experience-- build his candidacy for President around bold plans and transparent government?
Shelby Steele would say we elected an African man four years ago, and only now are we talking about electing a black man, the first one in the history of our country.
Actually, 4 years ago, we elected a Hawaiian man - don't believe Barry ever spent a day in Africa in his life.
But your point is quite valid.
PS Funny, but, after 2 Democrats claiming to be the country's first black President, the Republicans just might elect the real thing.
I love eBay, I used to frequent resale shops hunting for antiques, found quite a few over the years. I agree buying well made items that last are a great idea.we have been a throw away society , times are a changing.
Oh, one more regressive tax policy Dems love: the tax break on "green" cars. What is it- 8k tax break on a 40k or more new hybrid or electric car? I come from generations of working class Americans who almost never buy new cars. Tax breaks like those are obscene to me.
You will not trouble yourself however and will continue to made absurd assertions and reveal your distaste for black individuals.
I criticized his dopey economic plan. Which isn't his own economic advisors plan of choice. Maybe you're not bright enough to see the difference between economics and race, but that's not my fault.
Actually not dopey if you think the tax code needs to be rewritten in favor of the wealthy over the poor and middle class.
I've been for a sales tax and ditching the income tax for YEARS.
If you got money and buy, you get taxed. If you don't buy, you don't get taxed.
The only non-taxable stuff will be FOOD and MEDICINE.
But if you buy a yacht, you pay mucho tax. You buy a Mercedes, you pay mucho tax. You buy a canoe, not much tax. You buy a cheap Toyota, not much tax.
It is simple as that.
And the IRS, instead of snooping at 300 million Americans AND millions of business, can now just snoop on the businesses AND GET OUT OF OUR LIVES.
Oh, but no I ain't voting for Cain. He has ZERO experience dealing with a congress (something a Governor does), and being a CEO he is used to being a dictator of sorts.
So no, I don't want Cain, but a national sales tax to replace the income tax? YEP!
My interest meter barely twitched.
But I read them all anyway, these what-if scenarios, because they're interesting in themselves.
This plan is never going to happen.
I think what Gregory was saying is that if you add 9% federal sales tax on top of the already existing state and local sales tax, people are going to make their purchase decisions looking at maybe a 17% sales tax. Isn't that going to be horrible?
This is one of my concerns about the 9-9-9 plan. When you start putting Federal sales taxes on top of already high 8.25%, in my area, sales taxes it becomes a burden and will cause many people who are in lower income earning tiers now considerable hardship.
This doesn't also take into consideration that the State personal income tax in some states is quite high already too and they have State Corporate taxes and you are subject to a minimum "Your corporation is subject to an annual $800 minimum
franchise tax if it is doing business in the state, whether your
corporation is active, inactive, operating at a loss, or filing a
short period return for less than 12 months." or 1.5% whichever is higher
So in Ca you are looking at a potential
10.5- 18- 17.25 plan if you are a business owner.
I think the idea is good, but too simplistic.
On the other hand, it IS one way to make sure that everyone pays something towards the overall Federal tax burden.
Back on September 29, we were discussing manliness and the Professor was trying to figure out what makes a man a "man's man." Herman Cain was never mentioned in that comments thread and I think that was an error.
After this interview with David Gregory this morning, I think it's clear that, not only is Cain a "man's man," but he is a woman's man. And a profoundly good man.
(Also, any friend of traditionalguy is friend of mine.)
Actually Cains plan favors the poor over the wealthy.
Sales tax on Wrangler jeans at Fleet Farm or Walmart....$3.50.
Sales tax on Jeans at some trendy mall or hipster store...$16.00.
Meade, there is something about Cain and his background I like. doesn't neccisarly make him a good President, but his very modest background, Navel contractor work, business experience a growth.
Even the criticism that a Black man can't run for President if he didn't march in protests. Instead of marching down the street carrying a sign, he chose to excell in life. Work hard and never look back or ask for pity.
Note to myself, reread posts and correct spelling before hitting publish.
Technically, Herman Cain is incorrect about the severability of state income taxes from federal income taxes -- simply because most states' tax code start with information contained on the current Federal Income 1040 and W-2 forms.
Indeed 9-9-9 would necessarily alter but not replace state tax policy.
Garage is a typical liberal who loves all black people but cant stand individual blacks, especially those who dont conform to what he believes is the right way for blacks to think or act Very typical of liberal racists.
Michael, has Cain made his birth certificate public? How are we supposed to know whether he's even a citizen of the US?
Garage. Your racism is your fault. You do not appear to be able to escape it. You do selectively ignore your own comments when it is convenient, however, and that is noted.
What Meade said.
Chuck, I was just about to say that.
Garage. Your racism is your fault
Ok, I think I get it. You're trying to be funny.
Antiphone. That is a very good question, but we do know that both his mother and father were black. I believe they are thought to be Americans. And since he was allefedly born in Memphis it will be pretty easy to check out.
Edu....I blame WEAC for my spelling problems. It's never my own fault.
Garage. No. I was not. I have noted numerous racist remarks on this blog and i am not inclined to pretend you didnt write them. And no i am not going to link. And yes your racism is your fault or the fault of your poor reasoning skills
Taxing spending vs. saving provides a heavy incentive to save...It could also be a massive jobs killer.
The exact opposite. Greater savings leads to greater investment (by savings institutions, i.e. banks, which make more loans to businesses that want to expand and to start-ups) leads to greater number of jobs.
Cain certainly disconcerts David Gregory, but I am driven toward him more by the way he disconcerts David Frum and Charles Krauthammer.
wv: recks-- J recks every thread he comments in.
I will bet anyone any amount of money that before he takes office, Cain will make public his birth certificate, as unnecessary as that gesture ultimately will be.
Is a national sales tax constitutional Althouse? Currently, we pay an 18 cents tax per gallon to the feds on our fuel purchases. I am not sure that is a sales tax though.
The barely-contained loathing and hostility of some of these journalists towards the republican candidates really is something to behold.
@Chuck66
1) You are not required to pay any credit card fees -- when you do not use credit cards.
2) It costs retailers very little to collect federal taxes since they already collect state sales taxes in all but a few states.
Can we get to some serious objections, Sir? And I do not mean objections such as the foregone conclusion that we will see a great increase in black market activity to replace the rampant cheating that goes on with current income tax filings.
J wrote:
Herman Frankencain--the Afro-American Ayn Rand. Really a stupid creature.
Congratulations, J! By offering an insult to a (shudder) black man you now qualify for membership in the Althouse chapter of the Knights of the Klu Klux Klan. Your membership card is in the mail. In fact since your remark is strictly a personal insult of the most base and frivolousness kind you further qualify for the style and title of Grand Illustrious Tyrant of the Knights of the Klu Klux Klan (or GIT, for short). Your official ID is in the mail.
As a clarification know that the regulation robe is stainless white and is traditionally made from K-Mart brand white muslin bed-sheets (king size sheets in your case). Be sure to purchase the plain white color without designs, stripes, etc. The sheets from your Garanimals Brand Safari Sleep Set are not acceptable.
Tyrone. I am sure his birth certificate is not held in some super secret lockup in a Memphis hospital. I would expect he was born in John Gadsen or Baptist Hospital and i am quite sure he will proudly display it. I also doubt if he had a passport until he was in his thirties.
"The exact opposite. Greater savings leads to greater investment (by savings institutions, i.e. banks, which make more loans to businesses that want to expand and to start-ups) leads to greater number of jobs.”
In theory, yes. In the current cycle? Banks are reluctant to loan and existing companies are sitting on record amounts of cash. Given this environment (lack of demand), how does putting money into a savings account spur employment? Consumption does so immediately. Plus the topic of discussion involves the psychological impact of highlighting new taxes that would increase the visibility (if not also the amount) of total taxes paid for new purchases.
IF taxes are the enemy of consumption/demand and IF consumption/demand are desirable, wouldn’t it be better to have taxes hidden than highlighted?
So criticizing a tax plan is racist. Good to know.
I will bet anyone any amount of money that before he takes office, Cain will make public his birth certificate...
If the Tea Party had as much influence as it's portrayed as having in the media, the GOP would require public disclosure of birth certificates for their candidates early in the process. Isn't this a no brainer?
How glibertarian trash works--why, you can't protest Cain's ludicrous Greenspan ish proposals, or you're..a racist! Perhaps call Cain a .....yid. Like his hero Alvie
That was one of the best Meet the Press segments I have ever seen.
Bravo, Mr. Cain.
You have my vote.
Tyrone the neo-con puto---dissent sucks doesn't it perp? Ruinin' your wannabe boola boola, eh (which you can't manage at all).You dont know jack about economics ,t-shirt boy. Cain doesn't have a chance in Hell either. Like you, trash
antiphone said...
If the Tea Party had as much influence as it's portrayed as having in the media, the GOP would require public disclosure of birth certificates for their candidates early in the process. Isn't this a no brainer?
Whether a politician's constituency includes birthers or doesn't include birthers, I think the candidates have all internalized the message that it's better to get that whole birth thing out of the way early.
Yr typical non sequitur, queerster. No n-word, puto. Im calling him an AYn Rand,regardlessof his skin-color. Like you--libertarian shit, whatever your race.
Cain stated that under his plan, the tax burden would be reduced for most people since corporations would be passing along tax savings to consumers and employees. I was questioning whether those savings would indeed trickle down.
Corporations and non-corporations "pass along [payroll] tax savings" to consumers if and only if they increase their output. They increase their output by hiring more employees. They hire more employees when their cost of labor falls.
Workers are both employees and consumers (obviously), so they benefit in both roles when firms are induced to hire more of them. The bigger the boost to employment from a tax cut, the bigger is the reduction in consumers' costs.
Mulligan's estimates suggest that payroll-tax cuts will exert both output effects and after-tax wage effects, which means that workers will receive much, but not all, of the benefits. People who receive income in the form of interest and dividends will also realize some gains from a lower payroll tax through lower prices of goods.
An analysis of the effect of reducing the tax rate on corporate income is a lot more complicated. Offhand, I'm not sure how it would be split between interest/dividend income and wage/salary income.
The overall point is that the favorable effects of payroll tax cuts on workers do not occur because employers are kind enough to share some of their largesse through "trickle down" to their beloved employees. They occur because firms' owners are greedy enough to want to produce and sell more stuff when labor gets cheaper through lower payroll taxes.
@J
There are many here I don't agree with-- garage, Julius, Mitochondri-Allie, Crack Emcee, and many others. They are able to defend their positions using information and logic, faulty and scurrilous though it may be. They are also mostly able to be civil. You, on the other hand , have nothing but invective and foul language. You contribute nothing. Nothing. This blog would be vastly improved if you were banned, and once again I ask Althouse to do so.
Just watched the interview. Very powerful. Go Cain-Paul!!!
I noticed in this intro, as in many others, no mention of Cain's experience as a director of the Kansas City Federal Reserve Bank.
Seems to me that whether you think the Federal Reserve Board and/or the Federal reserve Banks are a good idea or not this would be a very powerful point on his resume.
This would give him a level of understanding of the Federal Reserve System that very few people have. None of the other candidates or even President Obie.
So why is it not mentioned? Not just in this case, it seems like it is rarely mentioned.
John Henry
Interesting. A lot of Canadians pay a high sales tax. The 9/9/9 tax structure would make the US more like Canada in terms of taxes. Although payroll taxes are less in Canada.
Yes, as noted, it is regressive, not progressive. And, yes, it is easier to raise taxes because everybody thinks that it is fair.
Goods cost more in Canada. But Canadians have much higher salaries, on average, then Americans.
Isn't a large part of our economic problem today that people aren't buying things, i.e. not enough demand in the economy? Doesn't it follow that a high sales tax will worsen that problem?
The left's complaints about the Obama birth certificate issue and the secret Muslim issue are themselves racist.
Those controversies didn't arise because Obama is black- they arose because of Obama's particular history. If the first (Democratic) black president had been Doug Wilder or John Lewis, say, neither of these would have been an issue.
I don't have much truck with the birthers or secret-Muslim folks, but to put it down to the fact that Obama's black is to ignore Obama's very particular East-African roots and experiences with Muslims- in the largest Muslim country too.
Not all African Americans are the same, and Obama is an outlier in many ways. To put these controversies down to racism is to insist that all black people can be lumped together- and should be.
The left's racist treatment of conservative blacks is part of this. A bit fascist too, I think. One people, one voice, all that. If you're not a part of that, you must be destroyed at all costs, and using racism itself against black conservatives is certainly not off the table. In fact, it's a very useful tool. (Same goes for other racial minorities, women, and gays who are on the right- ask Michelle Malkin about that.)
Chip Stupid, sounding like a supply- sider circa '85. The give-away doesn't work that way--in effect it mean..execs get a lot more money..and middle and lower classes, not,except for a few fortunate few (porsche mechanics)--and per Cain, their SS and HC benefits are most likely wiped out. Maybe look at some historical evidence instead of chanting the Teabag hype.
Isn't a big problem in our economy that people aren't spending, and won't a high sales tax worsen that?
Professor, you forgot one good thing about Cain: He has a MS in Computer Science. He can talk programs. It would be good to watch Cain and Perry talk. Perry will fall asleep. But, the White House wants Perry at all costs. What will Cain or Romney do?
J,
Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they are often full of shit.
Why is a Honduran expressing an opinion on our presidential candidates?
Perhaps it would be more helpful if you expressed an opinion on your murder rate:
"On Thursday, the Violence Observatory at the National Autonomous University of Honduras released a study indicating that the small Central American country of eight million was on course to break world records with its murder rate.
Honduras will reach 86 murders per 100,000 inhabitants by the end of this year, according to the observatory's coordinator Migdonia Ayestas."
Any thoughts on that?
John Henry
Tyrone , littleAZ phony-flunkie male nurse. You're nothing satanist. Shit, druggy perp--like yr hick mama. You don't know fuck abot economics. Maybe google Greenspan--tho a bit beyond you Im sure, dyslexic trash.
Yr headed to prison where yll soon be suckin dick for yr life.
even Ol Mr Ter**s agrees with that, perp.You buh bye
J said:
"Herman Frankencain--the Afro-American Ayn Rand."
I had not heard Afro-American since the 60's. Perhaps you are thinking of African-American? Cain addresses this in the interview.
In any event if he is an "Ayn Rand", that seems like it would be one more point in his favor.
I doubt that he is though. My may objection to Cain is that he is not liberal enough for my tastes.
I am a Ron Paul guy going back to the 80's. Paul is liberal enough for me.
I could live with Cain as Prez and Paul as VP running the Senate. I think Paul presiding over the Senate on a daily basis could get some really useful things done. Or, more importantly, stop a lot of non-useful things from getting done.
Cain too were he VP
John Henry
(Proud Liberal)
Isn't a large part of our economic problem today that people aren't buying things, i.e. not enough demand in the economy?
No. Or do you think that >> trillion-dollar deficits just aren't big enough?
There's convincing evidence that the two big impediments to a robust recovery are (1) the numerous distortions of the labor market that have been imposed in response to the mortgage-default crisis and then to the long duration of unemployment and (2) pervasive and massive uncertainty about their future labor costs under Obamacare.
Hey, thanks, J, for proving my point.
C'mon folks, is this guy great, or what?
Keep babbling away, sock-pup. You don't know fuck about economics, obviously ,as is the case with the rest of trailer park Ayn Rands here. Greenspan loved Rand--ergo,so does Cain
Dope test time,and ..more
I don't know what a "neoconservative" is either. I do know that there were a few people who called themselves neoconservatives and they seemed to have a meaning. The way the term is used most of the time these days is just an epithet. It has about as precise a meaning as calling someone a "shithead". Seems to me it says more about person calling someone a neoconservative than the person being called that.
Lots of people like to argue abut the so-called neoconservative manifesto "Project for a New American Century". Virtually nobody that talks about it seems to have any idea what it is about.
Not that they are mininterpreting it, they all seem to think it is about something completely different than it is.
Yes, I have actually printed out and read the document.
John Henry
"Isn't a large part of our economic problem today that people aren't buying things, i.e. not enough demand in the economy? Doesn't it follow that a high sales tax will worsen that problem?"
Not everybody thinks demand is the problem. Some argue the problem is confidence, regulation, policy confusion, or structual changes in the economy and employment pattern.
If you don't think demand is the problem, then a sales tax makes sense.
If you think the lack of consumer demand is hurting the economy, it follows that adding a sales tax would slow the economy.
Edutcher said:
J needs to go back to the Speedy Gonzales marathon for more Looney Tunes Spanish.
+++
Actually, her Spanish is not that bad. It is not really Spanish. It is really more of a Creole mix of Spanish and Indian (Mayan and other) languages.
English speakers from different countries and even different parts of the same country speak differently.
Same thing with Spanish. We speak differently here in PR than in Cuba. Mexicans speak differently than Hondurans.
And so on.
J's Spanish is typical of Honduras.
John Henry
"grimacing in a way that really lacks the usual polished journalist quality. "
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The left's complaints about the Obama birth certificate issue and the secret Muslim issue are themselves racist. Brian O'Connell
I brought up the birth certificate issue on this thread the same way I did in an earlier discussion of Rick Perry, with no reference to race whatsoever. You played the "race card" to score political points.
Hey Tyrone, want to go into a T shirt venture with me? We can compromise our political differences in honor of mutual dislike of J. Of course being a dirty hippy , I will depend on you to come up with the seed money.
Trad Guy,
Wouldn't the 9% tax apply to political contributions?
Not at the time of giving, perhaps. The Koch brothers might not pay sales tax when giving a direct contribution.
The politician receiving that contribution would presumably use it to pay campaign expenses (print, TV ads, travel expense etc) and it would be taxed normally at that point.
John Henry
@Mitochondri-Allie
Hey, I know how to silkscreen! I would have to dust off my equipment though.
In the meantime, and I intend this seriously, I propose to boycott J. The little creep feeds off our annoyance. I understand Althouse's reluctance to ban even such subhuman slime, but as for me, I will never sink to his gutter maundering again. I ask all of you here to join me.
"Not everybody thinks demand is the problem. Some argue the problem is confidence, regulation, policy confusion, or structual changes in the economy and employment pattern.”
Supply-siders believe that supply creates its own demand. Current circumstances do not seem to support that theory. These circumstances are being felt around the world...to blame the EPA or the ACA for global unemployment trends is bizarre to me.
Meade...Thanks for that thought.
I have felt uncertain whether or not to testify for Herman Cain. All of his friends here are in shock over his recent success. We advised him not to run.
But I find myself drawn in again and again to defend him.
One lesson that my life has taught me the hard way is that the best defense to a carefully made slander is always your friends who have known you.
They cannot slander us all at once, and they lose big if they try to.
I also never understood the concept that Jurors could not know the parties in the case. How else do you know who is telling the truth?
BOYCOTT!! What self respecting dirty hippy wouldn't go for that? I'm in!
John...I was half kidding about sales tax on contributions to campaigns, but after all the contributors think that they are buying something.
How else does Gov.Perry raise 15 million dollars in 4 weeks in Texas?
GIT J wrote:
Yr typical non sequitur, queerster. No n-word, puto.
I did not accuse you of using the n-word. I accused you of racism by its effective meaning.
Also, you wouldn't know a non sequitur if if bit you in your generous ass.
Will the 9% sales tax apply to property, cars, boats, and stocks?
If not, it is not equitable.
'I brought up the birth certificate issue on this thread the same way I did in an earlier discussion of Rick Perry, with no reference to race whatsoever. You played the "race card" to score political points.'
I wasn't referring to you. That's why I said "the left's complaints" rather than "antiphone's complaints". I have no idea what your stance on that is. Since the Constitution requires the president to be a natural-born citizen, there ought to be a relatively simple, agreed-upon way to establish that that test is met.
And if calling others out on playing the "race card" is itself playing the race card, then I'm guilty- but otherwise not.
@UUID--Funny how Canada has somehow managed to avoid being stymied by this alleged worldwide collapse of demand.
Back in the fall of 2008 Canada was also in a recession. Canadian liberals demanded "stimulus," and leveled the usual charges of "stupidity" against the conservative government that refused to go down that path:
Liberal finance critic John McCallum said he doesn't trust the Conservatives to make proper plans in their budget to shore up the slowing economy.
"I still think they don't get it," he told CBC News, citing a Clinton-era slogan: "It's the economy, stupid."
"The fundamental point is that whereas other countries like England, France and Japan are pouring tens of billions of dollars into stimulus, and China and the U.S. hundreds of billions, what does this government do? Nothing. All it does is cut."
The result? 7.1% unemployment in Canada vs. 9.1% in the US. And it's not as if the Canadian economy is generally unaffected by the US economy.
When will the hardy band of Keynesian holdouts just admit that there's no evidence to support their theory?
Lisa wrote:
Will the 9% sales tax apply to property, cars, boats, and stocks?
Not on stocks. These need to be as liquid as possible.
The Neo-conservative label came from W's policies under attack.
W built his Middleeast policy on the truths from Natan Sharansky's writings about how police states are influenced by democracies.
The tacit part of Neo-Conservative label is that you are a Zionist Stooge.
Well Herman is neither a Stooge nor a Zionist, so he refused to be trapped into making a gotcha answer.
The man can think on his feet!
“The result? 7.1% unemployment in Canada vs. 9.1% in the US. And it's not as if the Canadian economy is generally unaffected by the US economy.
When will the hardy band of Keynesian holdouts just admit that there's no evidence to support their theory?”
Canada averted (or at least postponed) a housing collapse. They have more stringent lending and banking regulations.
"The result? 7.1% unemployment in Canada vs. 9.1% in the US. And it's not as if the Canadian economy is generally unaffected by the US economy."
Not so much, actually.
Granted, I'm right worried about the Eurozone, but right now we're at 5% unemployment hereabouts.
John said...
Edutcher said:
J needs to go back to the Speedy Gonzales marathon for more Looney Tunes Spanish.
+++
Actually, her Spanish is not that bad. It is not really Spanish. It is really more of a Creole mix of Spanish and Indian (Mayan and other) languages.
Ya learn something new..., as they say.
It's just that something like, "Capichay", sounds like a cross between what you'd hear in a John Wayne movie set in Mexico and a bad "Godfather" rip-off.
It was nice that you were more open-minded about Cain. I think he's sharp and tough. He has a math degree. Cain is Able. The communist media types can get the more flappable flappers to flip out. That's what they did to Sarah Palin. It's an excruciating gauntlet that the communist media types set up.
Cain remains on message.
He is going to win unless they can get him to go completely crazy.
He's got another year or so of increasingly vicious taunts to endure. I think he's right to emphasize the experiential side of his background. Obama has had a complete pass from day 1, going back generations, too. His father was among the most privileged of Kenyans, and his mother among a very proud of privileged set, too.
Obama basically learned nothing from his experience, and it shows.
Thank you for an excellent and very insightful post
But there does seem to be something of a miunderstanding.
Harper did run a stimulus plan to offset the American economic problem.
More importantly, the banks didn't need a bail out, housing didn't crash, and Canada has a lot of oil to sell.
HA HA HA would have been a better message. I think there are German's who now thing we've lost our minds. Given "how" "9" translates "over there."
You want a successful campaign?
First, you have to strike a poster-face as good as Hope & Change.
No. You didn't have to vote for obama! Which should teach you a lesson or two about politics.
People you vote for don't generally win elections.
That's also been my story.
But I don't confuse my choice with what the majority of American pick.
Karl Rove is like Bill Clinton.
Both knew lots more fame than they've got now.
And, both drop everything ... to be painted in orange face makeup. So they can go on TV during prime time.
Neither guy knows how to dance.
You know, what? I don't even think Cain will be picked for veep!
Veeps don't have tax plans.
And, they're not supposed to take away from the president's limelight.
Their job is to basically attend funerals. Maybe, some also do parades? Do we still have them?
I have purchased a home in Tennessee, where I will one day retire. Tennessee has no state income tax. It has a 8% sales tax on nearly everything, food and shelter being exceptions.
My home is in the Great Smokey Mountains, near Gatlinburg. It is wroth as much as my home in Wisconsin. My home in Wisconsin carries an annual property tax burden of about $9,500; my home in Tennessee $1,300.
I already pay a 5.6% sales tax on most things I buy In Wisconsin. Increasing it to 8% and nearly eliminating my property taxes inexchange would keep me here.
In strict usage, neo-conservative is only correctly applied to a group of political writers, liberal pundits who underwent conversion to a philosophy distinct from "paleo" conservatism, beginning in the middle sixties. The founders of neoconservatism included Irving Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, Nathan Glazer, Daniel Bell, James Q. Wilson, and Seymour Martin Lipset. Later adherents were Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle. The neos are somewhat less anti-statist than the paleos in domestic policy, believing that we need to be weaned off the government tit rather than cut off cold turkey, and rather more interventionist in foreign policy.
One problem with the 999 plan is that it's going to encourage more imports and drop production of goods here in the US.
What country do you live in where imported goods are not subject to sales tax? I want to move there.
Slang--the grunt of the human hog (Bierce).
Grunt away Hoghouse
to blame the EPA or the ACA for global unemployment trends is bizarre to me.
You must be new around here.
Carol Herman said:
Their job is to basically attend funerals. Maybe, some also do parades? Do we still have them?
+++++++
That is what they do. It is not what their job is supposed to be.
The VP is *president* of the Senate. As such, they can assume the chair at any time. When in the chair they can recognize or not recognize senators wanting to speak, allow/disallow agenda items, rule on points of order and a number of other powers.
Each by itself might be fairly small. Together, to the Senate President (VP) who wants to use them, they can be pretty powerful.
Palin realized this when she as VP candidate.
Hopefully whoever the next VP is will recognize this as well.
John Henry
Cain sure beats the H out of Romney. Romney will SAY whatever he thinks works with this audience. Romney wants to be "President." Cain wants to lead America. There is a big difference.
I've never voted based on who's offering me the most money.
Irrelevant to if they will throw accusations out in the future, and irrelevant to if said accusations will find sway.
According to J. "the Laugher (note: that's "Laffer," you ad hominem creep) curve BS (which Cain alludes to at times) has been refuted numerous times."
Really, numerous times? BY Keynsian die-hards, no doubt. The FACT is that tax revenues shot UP dramatically after the Reagan tax rate reductions, and after the GW Bush tax rate reductions. So, sorry J., your bald assertion is flatly wrong.
"You assume business aren’t hiring because of high taxes. But businesses are sitting on record levels of cash reserves."
Unpack that.
Taxes are high, so doesn't it make more sense to have a larger reserve? Why, yes it does. Add uncertainty about taxes going up or regulations changing and a prudent person keeps more cash reserves.
Your point, isn't.
"What if business aren’t hiring because of low demand?"
It's a vicious circle. People don't have work or are, themselves, insecure, so demand goes down. Government can't make you buy something (or shouldn't be able to make you buy something) so the only way government has to put more money into the process so that businesses can hire more people, is to give some sort of tax relief.
More people working means more demand because more people have a bit of money. The cycle can at least start going the other way.
But lets just punish the businesses and corporations sitting on that cash so that they *rightly* feel even more insecure and less willing to expand or take any sort of risk.
Cuz that will work.
J. -- How is your trial going? Will it be an insanity plea or not? Please keep up updated.
Re demand:
A couple weeks ago I was at PackExpo in Las Vegas. This is the major show for builders of packaging (manufacturing) machinery. I am good personal friends with the owners of several companies and they told me about their sales.
2 large companies told me that their sales through August were more than total sales in 2010.
Several others, without getting quite so specific, told me similar stories.
So why are they not hiring? Because they do not know why their sales are doing so well. They don't know if this it a bubble or the beginning of something bigger. Until they feel confident that it is not a bubble, they will sit on their cash reserves.
I had a long lunch last week with a business owner in Chicago. He builds manufacturing machinery and had 40-50 people in manufacturing. He has them scheduled to work 55 hours a week (10hrs/day plus 5 Saturdays) until March. He has zero available production capacity until then. If he includes orders he thinks he will get, he has no capacity until May or June. At 55 hours a week.
He is looking for some $75-80m/yr mechanics and can't find them to hire.
Other than that, he is sitting on his cash until he figures out what is going on.
I spoke on packaging line design at PackExpo. I had almost 100 people in my session. That was double the number in the next biggest session. People don't spend $125 to hear me speak unless they are thinking of new lines.
I think there is tremendous pent up demand out there. I also think people are not going to act on the demand until they have some confidence in the future.
John Henry
"Didn't we have a black man four years ago-- with relatively little political experience-- build his candidacy for President around bold plans and transparent government?"
Not only did Obama have next to no political experience, he had no other experience either.
His lack of experience was such an outright farce that he claimed managing his own election campaign as one of the major areas of his executive experience. He wrote a book!
Cain obviously has very little political experience. But it's silly to equate his lack of experience with Obama's lack of experience without that qualifier "political".
And Cain does have executive experience in a realm where there are real consequences for screwing up.
Michael Haz, sprechen sie Swabisch? Donauschwaben are extinct now, kind of sad isn't it? The old ones here in WI are all dying off.
"But lets just punish the businesses and corporations sitting on that cash so that they *rightly* feel even more insecure and less willing to expand or take any sort of risk.”
Tax rates are down. Total 2010 tax revenue (as a percent of GDP) is lower now than at any point since 1950 according to the Heritage Foundation. The notion that high taxes are killing growth does not square with recent history. Employment was thriving in the 80’s and 90’s when tax rates and receipts were larger.
@J:the Laugher curve BS (which Cain alludes to at times) has been refuted numerous times.
You mean the Extreme Value Theorem? Which is what the "Laffer curve" is if applied to anything but taxes. No, it hasn't been refuted. You'll find it in the table of contents of every calculus textbook.
Revenue as a function of potential tax rate forms a continuous, real valued, and nonnegative function, with R(0) = 0, because no taxes are collected, and R(100%) = 0, because people will not do the thing that is being taxed. Therefore, the maximum value of R(r) is somewhere between r = 0% and r = 100%--and consequently, for some values of r, decreasing r will increase revenue.
Whether CURRENT values of r are less than or greater than the value of r that yields the maximum is debatable, and consquently so is whether a tax cut from today's rates will increase revenue, but that doesn't refute the "Laffer curve", which is a straightfoward application of calculus.
John Henry:
There is a huge confidence deficit in America. Your anecdotes are evidence of it. Victor Hanson just wrote an OPED predicting a post-Obama renaissance. I agree with him but only if we get the right admin & a new prez who will lay out a common sense plan and cut govt and cut govt red tape.
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