২৯ জুন, ২০১১

Isthmus columnist Emily Mills slimes me over the Wisconsin Supreme Court "chokegate" story...

... without taking the trouble to link to or quote anything I said. Or should I say without daring to link to or quote anything I said? She cites the "the fires of victim blaming amongst Prosser supporters" and then says:
One of the more vocal among them is blogger and UW Law School professor Ann Althouse, who has gone to great and terrible lengths to excuse the alleged behavior, attack the credibility of only the anonymous sources with whom she disagrees, suggest that no arrests (yet) mean no wrongdoing, impugn the honor of Justice Bradley, and cast doubt on the very justice system of this state.
What? Emily makes no effort to back up that characterization of me. My posts about the Wisconsin Supreme Court are all collected here. Any fair reader can see that I'm endeavoring to understand the stories that have appeared in the press, critiquing the press, and asking a lot of sensible questions. It's not even fair to call me a "Prosser supporter," let alone assert that I've "gone to great and terrible lengths" to "excuse... attack... [and] impugn" anybody.

Emily Mills' dishonest assertions about me seem to reflect her desperation, her need to believe what she wants to believe, her reflex to plug her ears and go la la la la la. I mean, look at what I actually said.

When Bill Lueders first dropped the allegation that Prosser choked Bradley, I merely noted it and said "Hmmm." My second post linked to the presentation of the story on the lefty blog Think Progress, which was about the ways to oust Prosser from the court. I corrected the blogger (Ian Millhiser) for calling Prosser an "accused criminal" instead of a "person accused of a crime" — which is a point anyone who cares about the rights of the accused ought to find important — and I observed that we lacked the full context. I speculated about who Lueders's sources were and who would have the motivation to go to the press. And, most devastating to Mills's embarrassing statement about me, I said:
But sure. If Justice Prosser committed a criminal attack on another Justice, he shouldn't be on the court, even if he only lashed out after weeks or years of merciless bullying. 
In fact, if you search through my posts, you'll see that I've consistently said Prosser should resign if he choked Justice Bradley. I said:
I agree with Millhiser that if it's true Prosser reached a breaking point and started strangling Bradley, he should go. I doubt that's true, however, because there was no arrest. That's why we're getting the story in this unsourced, piecemeal form.
I'm struggling to figure out what went on. Yes, I do use the evidence of no arrest to suggest that Prosser didn't suddenly snap and launch into a strangling, but that doesn't mean I'm saying "no arrests (yet) mean no wrongdoing." It means — as anyone who reads that post with a calm, clear mind can see — that I'm guessing the situation was complex — and later reports confirm my guess.

That post is updated with a reference to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel report citing allegations that Bradley initiated the physical aggression — charging at Prosser with fists raised. Emily Mills deserves to have her own language turned back on her: She has gone to great and terrible lengths to excuse Bradley's alleged behavior and to impugn the honor of Justice Prosser and blah blah blah. It's so easy to be a hot-headed partisan. And so risky! Because you make it so easy for someone to show what you are.

My next post on the subject goes into more detail examining the new material in the Journal Sentinel article. That post, before updates, concludes:
I want to know not only what really happened at the time of the physical contact (if any) between the 2 justices, but also who gave the original story to the press. If Prosser really tried to choke a nonviolent Bradley, he should resign. But if the original account is a trumped-up charge intended to destroy Prosser and obstruct the democratic processes of government in Wisconsin, then whoever sent the report out in that form should be held responsible for what should be recognized as a truly evil attack.
I boldfaced another sentence for you, Emily. My first update includes the material that, I think, has touched off panic in the local ideologues:
Everyone who thinks Prosser must to resign if he attacked Bradley ought to say that if Bradley attacked Prosser, she should resign.
I was calling for even-handedness and consistency. And that, I think, was what was truly "terrible" to people like Emily Mills. After the burst of enthusiasm that came with Bill Lueders's hit piece on Prosser, there came the horrible realization that the dreaded conservative governor Scott Walker might end up with the power to name a replacement for one of the liberal justices. I pointed that out — in the context of critiquing the decision to give Lueders the ability to break the story the way he did. I was trying to analyze the reasoning and motivation of the Lueders's unnamed sources.

This led to my next piece, analyzing the political reasoning behind Lueders's attack. There, I noted how the Lueders piece inspired lefty bloggers to go all out attacking Prosser in ways that will now — after the Journal Sentinel piece — be used to leverage arguments against Bradley. I repeated my statement "if it's true Prosser reached a breaking point and started strangling Bradley, he should go." And I called for principled consistency (addressing the Think Progress blogger Millhiser):
All right, Mr. Millhiser, I appeal to you. Let's be unanimous about this and show that our political system has not broken down. I agreed with you that if Prosser did what Lueders's story made it seem that he did, Prosser should resign. By your own standard, will you say that if Bradley initiated the physical aggression, running at Prosser with raised fists, that the integrity of our political system demands that there be unanimous calls for Bradley to be removed?
This is what's so scary and what — I think — is making these partisan local columnists tear into me. I'm not a pro-Prosser blogger. I'm a law professor blogger, probing with questions about neutral principles, the actual facts, and political interests. Lueders lured lefties into making statements that are now quite inconvenient, and they don't know how to get out of the corner they've written themselves into. Don't lash out at me. That's childish.

I'm asking hard questions that demand thoughtful, careful answers. It's been my job for a quarter of a century as a law professor to frame questions like that. And I'm an expert at seeing when people don't want to answer the questions. Answer the questions, I plead with my students before they take my exams. You can only get credit for answering the questions.

In my next post, I deal with a comment that Lueders left on that previous post, trying to defend himself. I continue to critique him and demand precision about the various assertions and what constitutes spin. The post after that has a similar theme, trying to figure out who Lueders's sources were. Here's another short post, wondering about who had the motivation to go to Lueders.

And that's just about all Emily Mills could have read before lashing out at me. Now, it's possible that she didn't read anything I wrote, because after the paragraph of hers I quoted above, she says:
I won't go into why Althouse's arguments are wrong -- someone has already done a far, far better job of it than I ever could -- but her writings on the matter provide a fairly good overview of what so many Prosser supporters are now arguing.
She links to some blogger's long screed about me. Emily, that's quite a confession! That's a far, far better job than you could ever do? How dare you write about me the way you did without going through my writings yourself? Did you check that blogger's work? Are you adopting the poor reading and reasoning as your own? You call me on fairness and you write about me the way you did? Aren't you even afraid for yourself, that you will look like a stupid hack? Aren't you even afraid for your liberal cause, that you have lost the very credibility you will need to defend Justice Bradley (and the Chief Justice) as the facts unfold? You need to show that you are interested in the truth, in principle, and that you will deal with the evidence and the serious questions. Why would you be so careless? It smells like desperation and panic.

I have waited nearly a day to respond to Emily Mills's embarrassing attack on me. Yesterday, Meade went over there to participate in the comments. He wrote:
Shame on you, Emily.  You assert and smear without so much as linking to her posts. You fail to cite the passages in which you claim she goes to "great and terrible lengths," "excuses," "attacks" credibility of sources (you happen to want to believe), "suggests," and "impugn[s]." You do this without linking or citing the specific words and sentences you want your readers to believe are objectionable. All because, what, because you say so?

Weak.

And then you dish off the dirty work of trying to substantiate your charges to a verbose blogger whose only argument in smearing Ann Althouse relies on the notion that Justice Bradley was in fact choked - a fact that is still in dispute.

I've seen you do better, Emily.
Although Mills responded within 2 hours to the previous commenter, she has not responded to Meade, and more than 13 hours have passed. I was hoping Meade's relatively gentle push-back would have been sufficient. I don't really like slamming a young writer who could do much better. Even when I have been attacked, I don't like it. Because I feel like a teacher. I'm not a political ideologue. I don't even care that much about politics. I care about truth and the ability of human beings to reason and to interact with each other.

And I generally choose not to draw attention to attacks on me. But the statement that Emily Mills made about me simply cannot be allowed to sit there festering on the website of a newspaper — Isthmus — that is widely read in my town.

It's too much like the attack from Bill Wineke that I felt I had to respond to yesterday. Both writers are attacking me as a law professor at the University of Wisconsin. I think they would like to destroy my reputation in this town, where they so casually assume the benefits of inclusion in what is a political majority here. I think they carelessly and lazily believe that local readers will eat up the sloppy attacks they're serving, because local readers agree with their political ends.

As they rush at me from across town shaking their balled-up fists in my face, I feel I must extend my fingers in self-defense, and type out an exposé of their shoddy work for a larger audience.

CORRECTION: The writer of the column "Emily's Post" isn't "Emily Post." It's Emily Mills. I've corrected all the mistaken references to "Emily Post."

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Irene বলেছেন...

Looks like Emily Mills needs another 24 hours to figure out a justification for what she wrote in the first place and respond accordingly. And we'll love it, she promises, and that matters more than any pesky truthiness.

Readers of The Daily Page will love it. Emily's Post was voted Best Local Blog by . . . Isthmus readers.

She's just crazy about Madison, that "liberal lakeside paradise."

garage mahal বলেছেন...

Waukesha Cty is as partisan conservative as Dane Cty is liberal. BFD.

Lincolntf বলেছেন...

Emily touts her blog as "Thoughtful commentary on politics, current events and culture in Madison."

So very, very thoughtful of her to write a nasty article attacking Althouse and then having zero material to back up her claims. Apparently, "bottom-feeding" = "thoughtful" in Madison.

Carol_Herman বলেছেন...

Holy crap! Alinsky doesn't work!

It should'a worked.

But it's basically a man with a plan to screw things up.

This story just gets more and more "bemusing" every single day.

Can the left look any more ridiculous? If they're "winning" what's their margin? It's really hard to keep up with this without a scorecard. It's like playing golf with cheaters.

PianoLessons বলেছেন...

I love Carol Herman posts on this blog :-)

Every friggin one.

walter বলেছেন...

Truth can be a "a great and terrible" thing to behold.
But this is all getting so serious.

There's pig wrasslin' at Stoughton's upcoming fair. Instead of the 4 legged variety, give the Stoughton folks some real entertainment value by letting the Justices settle their differences in a more dignified manor. Make it pay per view with state endorsed betting to generate some revenue.

Irene বলেছেন...

Kathy, is your avatar an image of a Wisconsin Supreme Court justice??

নামহীন বলেছেন...

Ms. Althouse, may I join you in extending a finger to Ms. Mills and her ilk? Here it is Emily - notice I'm thrusting it as well. Have a wonderful day.

Lincolntf বলেছেন...

"Make it pay per view with state endorsed betting to generate some revenue."

I'd root for Prosser, but bet on Bradley. She's got the killer instinct.

নামহীন বলেছেন...

Heaven forfend Meade be taken seriously because he's an intelligent commenter. D.GOOCH

Michael Haz বলেছেন...

Emily Mills's post is still there. Why take it down - to attract fewer eyeballs?

http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=33933

Joe বলেছেন...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)



Congratulations Fellow Althouse Hillbillies, we’ve broken “200” and nary a mention of “Palin.”

KCFleming বলেছেন...

Prediction:
Tomorrow, Emily Mill's post will be a massive FAIL.

She made the mistake of setting high expectations, and she'll try and try to write a triumphant take-down.

But it'll be lame; the usual evasive nonresponsive accusatory namecalling bullshittery that passes for journalism in newspapers.

I'm embarrassed for her already.

Carol_Herman বলেছেন...

If Abrahamson had brains left, she'd be walking around shell shocked.

You know, I had a friend, once, who was a judge. She told us about an embarrassing experience. She had left the bench to go to the ladie's room. Unfortunately, her robe, in the rear, got stuck inside her pantyhose. And, NOBODY wanted to tell her. So she enters the court. Everybody sees her robes are inside her pantyhose. Her rear end is in view.

While no one thought it was appropriate to tell her! She even got to sit down in her chair. When finally, a sheriff walked over (and whispered in her ear.)

Yeah. She was mortified.

But only AFTER she was told!

I'll bet nobody's going near the two bat shit crazy ladies ... to tell them what they broke ... when the "confidences" that belong inside the rooms where justices meet ... got leaked out to the world!

Meanwhile, I'm sure Prosser is walking around this Wisconsin supreme court joint, with a step that indicates he is one happy dude.

He's been vindicated.

The loons who were pressing for a "Dr. Phil moment," where Prosser would be subjected to PC's etiquette rules ... has come to a dreadful end.

Or absolutely thigh smacking funny.

You know, nobody can force audiences to laugh.

Using Alinsky is an EPIC FAILURE!

Going to a journalist ... Oh, my gosh. On par with Obama's beer summit.

And, we all know when we saw the train wreck.

Pravda is probably covering this story better than the New Yoke Times.

Glad the story's still out there ... and not dropped down the memory hole. It's like Mr. Rogers sang "It's a wonderful day in the neighborhood!"

Plus, people congregating no longer have just the topic of the weather!

Now, if this was the Adventures of Pauline ... how many episodes yet ahead ... before those who abandoned logic and reason ... need to return to square one?

On "square one" you can't get back to PC.

Shanna বলেছেন...

Looks like Emily Mills needs another 24 hours to figure out a justification for what she wrote in the first place and respond accordingly. And we'll love it, she promises, and that matters more than any pesky truthiness.

She needs some time to actually read up about everything she commented on but didn’t read the first time.

starboardhelm বলেছেন...

If I have the math right:

((Bradley * #Choked!)WI / Prosser) + ((Weiner * #Hacked!)NY / Breitbart) = Exit * 2

Where both #Hacked! and #Choked! are imaginary.

PianoLessons বলেছেন...

Carol Herman - I used to work for a state senator in Wisconsin's Legislature and I had this same thing happen. I got a job in a Republican Senator's office (a female fiscal conservative and social liberal who I ended up ADORING) but I was a secret Democrat. I had a bathroom incident where my skirt was tucked in and no one in my office told me about it or warned me. An unaffiliated (as far as I knew) page gave me the heads up as I was walking into a committee hearing. Made me think - HMMMM - I was in the office for twenty minutes walking around grabbing files while these GOP aides never told me about my situation. This says volumes.

I have seven sisters. We always say we count on each other to tell each other when we have raspberry seeds stuck in our teeth.

Lesson: Trust your instincts as if you are a deer in the forest.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

I'm embarrassed for her already.

I bet she is glad though that you and so many others care about her little place in an obscure little college town website!

Scott M বলেছেন...

I bet she is glad though that you and so many others care about her little place in an obscure little college town website!

It's obscurity ended around February, wouldn't you say?

Joe বলেছেন...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)



Yes Little Emily, would be glad were she posted, prominently, at HuffPo or DailyKos, and were vanguard of the “journalistic wave” washing away Prosser…instead she’s here and at Instapundit, being ridiculed. For THAT, I’m sure she’s embarrassed. Funny it’s all good fun, in Garage’s mind, if it all works out as he and his Progressives desire, but it’s not a big deal, if it doesn’t..in fact those grapes were sour anyway, and who cares what anyone wrote about Prosser at the Isthmus!? It’s a dum’ole paper and you all are Poopie-Heads any way!

Lincolntf বলেছেন...

What's the matter GM, recognizing that the worst possible thing for Leftists is for people to actually read their "work"?
If Emily doesn't want critical commenters, then she shouldn't call people out by name in hit-pieces that are begging to be fisked and/or or (this is important, so pay attention) POST IT ON A PUBLIC FUCKING WEBSITE in the first place.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

Just wish for one second you could see how pathetic it looks.

Lincolntf বলেছেন...

I see exactly how pathetic it is. A website/blogger that actively seeks readers loses their shit when they finally get some. Not quite as pathetic as the fuckwitted Teachers with the swastikas, but pathetic nonetheless.

Stosh2 বলেছেন...

That was quite a lesson. It's obvious you've had experience with students who don't do their homework.

Joe বলেছেন...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

Just wish for one second you could see how pathetic it looks

Yes, we do see how pathetic “it” looks Garage, it’s why we laugh at you so much…

Yeah, Garage more and more your postings seem along the lines of “This was stooopit any way, and it’s not a big deel…who cares, you all are just Doodie-Heads.”

Remember, we’re not laughing WITH you, Garage….

Oh and Emily, sweetie, I wouldn’t call out Althouse, UNLESS you have a very, very good set of facts on your side…She being a well-known Blogress, with an “In” to Glenn Reynolds….It’s picking a fight you probably can’t win.

Ignorance is Bliss বলেছেন...

garage mahal said...

Just wish for one second you could see how pathetic it looks.

Fortunately the professor provided a link to her post, so we could.

Hoosier Daddy বলেছেন...

"...just wish for one second you could see how pathetic it looks..."

What? Your constant failsauce on all things lefty? We're used to it.

নামহীন বলেছেন...

Yet another hippie freak.

I've never seen a person who looked like a rooster before.

But this tranny is the spitting image of a fucking rooster.

Titus বলেছেন...

I agree with Troop.

Hugs Troop.

tits.

Titus বলেছেন...

Garage gets everyone worked up here.

Let's all take a deep breath, relax, assume the Lotus Position, and exhale. Find your third eye, say hello to it, maybe even tickle it, couchie coo, heehee.

Now lets all smile.

It's summer. Enjoy the bountiful joys that cum with summer. 500 days of Summer.

KCFleming বলেছেন...

Garage, I wish her the best of luck, but she's come to a battle of wits armed with a pop gun.

And she's having trouble with the cork.

Titus বলেছেন...

This summer I all about quinoa, whey protein powder and flaxseed.

thank you.

Titus বলেছেন...

I'm Titus and I am a Taurus. I like rare clumbers and chinese noodles.

Let's meet and have a baby now.

I love B52's.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

Yes, we do see how pathetic “it” looks Garage, it’s why we laugh at you so much…

I'm laughing harder at the flying monkeys that ascended to Emily's column telling her how insignificant she is!

নামহীন বলেছেন...

I don't wish Althouse to be unfairly attacked in the media, but I do marvel at her thinking/writing skills when she feels the need to respond. A bit like Zorro finally becoming tired of the taunts of a blowhard, slicing off the idiot's pants with one well-placed sword stroke to the belt leaving the braying jackass as physically exposed as Althouse mentally exposes Emily Mills.

Joe বলেছেন...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

I love B52's.


I do too, especially the “D” Model with the “Big Belly” Modification….but we may not be talking about the same things here….

Brennan বলেছেন...

I'm laughing harder at the flying monkeys that ascended to Emily's column telling her how insignificant she is!

You can't even get that right. Sheesh.

Joe বলেছেন...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

I'm laughing harder at the flying monkeys that ascended to Emily's column telling her how insignificant she is!



All 22 comments, I’m sure Emily was crushed….by Flying Monkeys I’m sure you mean, those mean ole’ Doodie-Heads that pointed out that the Emily article was without much basis in fact or reason….Much akin to the definition of “lying @ssh0les” Garage has, you know people with whom Garage disagrees, and worse yet get the better of Garage in the political/intellectual debate.

I meant to point out Garage, all those H!tler mustaches and then the Union dood who explained Scott Walker equaled H!tler, no lying @ss-h0lery there.

নামহীন বলেছেন...

garage said:

"Just wish for one second you could see how pathetic it looks."

Don't beat yourself up, buddy. ED happens as you get older. Layoff the cold showers--and no one really wants to see how pathetic it looks--well, Maybe Titus, but I doubt it.

Joanna বলেছেন...

I never even promoted Prosser when he was running for reelection. I wrote about the campaign, but I didn't recommend Prosser. That's pretty damned even-handed of me.

By writing about the campaign and not promoting Kloppenberg, you were being biased. Obviously.

If you're not with 'em, you're against 'em.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

Don't beat yourself up, buddy. ED happens as you get older.

You would know old timer, I'll let you know if and when.

bagoh20 বলেছেন...

Cedarford said:
"Journalism is the only "profession" that requires no credentials."

and a bunch of other dismissive stuff about people without credentials.

I'd remind you that this whole kerfuffle is about some very credentialed persons acting like the spoiled children of cave dwellers.

Maybe credentials tell little of importance about important things.

bagoh20 বলেছেন...

Hi S,

Welcome to the best blog.

Scott M বলেছেন...

Welcome to the best blog.

If we do say so ourselves...


WV - gynesest

When love between two doctors who shared the same parents goes horribly right.

S. বলেছেন...

@bagho20

Thank you for the welcome message. You're correct. Best. Blog. Ever.

Carol_Herman বলেছেন...

Ya know? If Sherlock Holmes were a journalist. And, he was tasked with delving into this story. He'd go looking over to see how Abrahamson and Bradley are looking just about now.

Isn't it funny that neither two of these dames is seen happy with the reportage so far?

Only these two loose canons could have gone all in, and decided to get this story out.

And, this was after trying to coax their colleagues on the court to force Justice Prosser into "obedience training." Or whatever schmucky name that's given to "sensitivity training" these days.

Seems there's a dirth of stories about how Prosser had to go into hiding. Just to avoid taking his medicine.

There's also something else Sherlock Holmes would report. He'd detail how courts really work. How, when the robes are hanging on hooks ... and shirtsleeves are rolled up ... justices use the horn ... to save a colleague whom they hear is in trouble.

It works like insurance.

In other words, where are these phone calls going? You know. From senior justices. To help out one of their own?

Instead, this has been left to Emily Mills?

What purpose did Emily Mills serve in attack Ann Althouse?

Why, instead, wasn't she over at the courthouse ... whooping it up ... and celebrating with Abrahamson and Bradley?

Oh. You mean there's nothing for those dames to celebate?

Well, then. Welcome to Sherlock Holme's world.

Michael বলেছেন...

Garage: What was it our president suggested? Something about if they bring a knife?

garage mahal বলেছেন...

We'll see how that works out for you Michael. Would be a pity if the majority was lost when another case comes up before them, like, collective bargaining? Photo ID?

Carol_Herman বলেছেন...

Hello, Michael,

Sad, but true, Obama has no talent and leading anybody. Even if he thinks knives are good to bring to fights, he's never really confronted one. He's an affirmative action baby. If he'd just take his birth certificate off his forehead long enough to look at it ... he'd see right there. He was birthed out of the 60's affirmative action birth canal.

We're just lucky he didn't walk out of Harvahd with a medical degree. If that had been the case, he'd be dangerous. The knives he'd use incompetently, and stupidly, would be on unsuspecting patients.

Perhaps some day the passengers will ask ... "How did the bar to qualify get so low?"

Pity the sheep who gave up his skin to credential all these assholes.

george বলেছেন...

Congrats Ann, you have now had just the smallest taste of what Palin goes through every day of her life. I suspect Prosser could tell you a few things about the spot you are in as well. You and Bachmann are now the left's new chew toys.

With the country in the midst of a civil cold war you really don't have the luxury of not taking sides. It is foolish to think that you can get out of taking a stand. The lefties won't let you because being judicious and rational is just as injurious to their cause as if you were a partisan. Their positions are not reasonable or judicious ones. When you try to use logic or display decency you declare yourself their enemy.

You just gotta love the insanity Obama has unleashed on this country. Violent flash mobs running down the streets attacking people physically, mobs of "journalists" attacking people rhetorically, union thugs threatening and intimidating, government agents wiping out entire industries... it is all of a piece and perfectly predictable.

You don't realize it Ann but you voted for this. You chose this. This is always what happens in socialist countries where all of the power is concentrated and all paths to success lead through the government. Obama made no bones about what he was going to do if you had just bothered to listen and to think about what his past history was telling you. You are as guilty of projecting your unrealistic version of Obama on him as Ms. Post is of foisting the one she has of you on her readers.

Even so, this isn't nearly as bad as things will be soon. You don't just paper over the sort of fiscal problems we have. Paul Ryan hasn't come close to proposing the level of cuts it is going to take to regain our solvency as a nation. And the left will scream bloody murder every step of the way. They will use every tactic at their disposal and woe to you if you get in their way.

As the president says, let's be clear about this, you are not being attacked over anything you said or any violation of logic or decency you committed in examining the Prosser/Bradley conflict. You are wasting your breath and missing the point if you engage them on that basis. You are being attacked because the left lost the political battle over the union bargaining rights and they perceive you as an obstacle to getting their revenge.

This is all plain to everyone else even if you can't see it.

Now I think I will go over to the Isthmus and defend your honor --- if I can find a comment section there. It is always great fun to let them know that no one is buying their bullshit. They are so used to everyone thinking alike that it is amusing to see how they react when confronted with reality.

Michael বলেছেন...

Garage: I frankly don't give a shit about what your state does to itself and a large part of me hopes that you potlatch yourselves to financial oblivion. If you are so coddled and stupid that you actually believe that your rights are being ripped from you by virtue of the fact that you can't require the taxpayer to fund extravagant pensions in an environment where millions are without work then you deserve to be both an object of ridicule and a broke person pretending to be solvent. Observe Greece if you want to get a view of what you look like to the rest of America. It's over, pal. Whining about photo ID and chokeholds and on and on is getting you nowhere. Losing side of history, my good man.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

Blah blah garble garble union blah garble garble Greece garble blah blah. You too fucking stupid to know public employees here in Wisconsin pay 100% of their pension from their wages. It (was) the best pension system in America.

Get some new material.

Carol_Herman বলেছেন...

Emily Mills farted out an opinion.

This one rose above her usual readership levels.

As to what's missing?

Well, how come if Prosser was going to be exposed as needing "sensitivity training" ... and it wsn't enough for Bradley's request to be shot down in a meeting with her colleagues ...

So, in an effort to "dial things up" ... this story appeared.

It still didn't have its desired effect, ya know?

Meanwhile, I'd bet Prosser, once the facts became public, got a great payoff in vindication.

And, once, again ... comments fly off the charts!

Do you know to get to the bottom, I have to click on "newer and newest?"

Every time the counter goes above 200 ... It's a hit list. Requiring readers to tap onto the additional string.

Seems to me, Ann, that's gotta make you smile.

Automatic_Wing বলেছেন...

You too fucking stupid to know public employees here in Wisconsin pay 100% of their pension from their wages.

So where do their wages come from, garage?

Dust Bunny Queen বলেছেন...

You [sic] too fucking stupid to know public employees here in Wisconsin pay 100% of their pension from their wages.

Really??

Please explain how you have come to this conclusion. I'm fascinated to hear the logic behind this statement.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

Their wages come from the same place private employees receive theirs - the people they work for. As Jeremy would say, duh.

Phil 314 বলেছেন...

Not sure what's up with Wisconsin Republicans, they are the biggest lying assholes in the country.

Well there you go.

Sums it up; case closed.

Next issue.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

Please explain how you have come to this conclusion. I'm fascinated to hear the logic behind this statement.

They work. They get paid. Part of that pay is deferred and goes to their pension. Did you seriously not know how that works? And you handle peoples money?

Automatic_Wing বলেছেন...

Their wages come from the same place private employees receive theirs - the people they work for. As Jeremy would say, duh.

Really, private employers in Wisconsin pay their workers with taxpayer money? Wisconsin's farther down the road to socialist paradise than I thought.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

They get paid from the people they work for. Shouldn't be too hard to grasp, I would think.

Roger J. বলেছেন...

William pretty well nails it, imo--the wisconsin supreme court is clearly , ahem, dyfunctional.

And I am in agreement with seven machos--nothing will come of this other than even more disrepect for the legal profession and judiciary.
No charges filed, no resulting investigation summary, nada zilch.

A sad story all around--Its the Jerry Springer show in black robes.

Dust Bunny Queen বলেছেন...

Their wages come from the same place private employees receive theirs - the people they work for. As Jeremy would say, duh

No....you said 100% of their pensions come from the employee's wages.

How do you figure this when they only pay a small percentage of their wages towards their pensions and the rest of it comes from taxpayer funds.

Please explain how you think thate 100% of pension contributions come from the employee's paycheck.

SunnyJ বলেছেন...

As an instructor I recognize fully, the angst and projection that comes when you actually ask readers/students to reason the answer for themselves...instead of puking out the Yes/No and providing them with a mulitple guess test format to puke it back.

They, like Ms Mills and Mr Weneke, become so uncomfortable with the answer they are coming up with, because it is counter to their dogma...it must be your fault, the evil questioner has framed them into arriving at the wrong right answer!

There is no loyalty among thieves Professor. This may be your town, your reputation unimpeachable in law and instruction, your questions posed with carefully honed objectivity, your discussions perfectly balanced and your sources and links impeccable...but, if you prompted the intellectually dishonest to come up with the wrong right answer?

Well, social justice must be served and the enlightened worshippers of diversity will use the techno edgy tools available to them...shunning. How Amish of them.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

How do you figure this when they only pay a small percentage of their wages towards their pensions and the rest of it comes from taxpayer funds

Not sure what you mean. Instead of taking the cash, now, they send it to the pension fund where it's invested instead. After they receive that pay, it's not the taxpayers money anymore.

BJM বলেছেন...

Holy Moly! I've been busy paying for that new jet and just dropped in to see what kerfuffle was in motion today.

Astounding.

Fail is spreading through Madison like the stench of a road-kill skunk on a hot day.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

It's true I believe if the pension fund comes up short, the taxpayer is on the hook. The pension fund in WI is almost 100% funded though.

Or, if the employee lives longer than the plan anticipated, the taxpayer would be on the hook as well.

Fen বলেছেন...
এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।
Fen বলেছেন...

I'm comforted by the fact that Emily Mills is a 3rd tier hack in a dying "profession" that has no future.

"Would you like fries with that?"

Start practicing, Emily.

Because when we find you, we'll tell your manager that you tried to choke us. We'll even write corporate a nasty complaint that uses your "standard" of proof.

Chip S. বলেছেন...

Instead of taking the cash, now, they send it to the pension fund where it's invested instead. After they receive that pay, it's not the taxpayers money anymore.

In that case, they shouldn't object at all to switching to a defined-contribution pension plan. I'm sure there'd be no Republican opposition to that.

Consensus!

Michael বলেছেন...

Garage: It works exactly the same in Greece. I think you are beginning to get it? No, probably not.

Dust Bunny Queen বলেছেন...

Me: How do you figure this when they only pay a small percentage of their wages towards their pensions and the rest of it comes from taxpayer funds

Garage Not sure what you mean. Instead of taking the cash, now, they send it to the pension fund where it's invested instead. After they receive that pay, it's not the taxpayers money anymore.



I know you are not understanding. Let me explain it. I will type very slowly.

The pension fund is a Defined Benefit Plan. The employee NOW pays a small (SMALL) portion in before tax income towards their pension plan. Meaning that if they make 1000 dollars in wages they pay 12% of their salary or 12 dollars towards the pension plan.

Because the benefit guaranteed is much more than that mere $12$ will provide, the employer (in this case the government funded by tax revenues) contributes the rest. This money is not the employees wages and is not in their paycheck and never touches their hands until retirement.

The employees are not taxed on this money and it is not even reflected in their paychecks or their wages. The employees are NOT paying 100% of the cost of their pension plan. The difference between what they do pay and what goes into the plan is basically a GIFT (extorted) from the taxpayers to the teachers/employees.

When the plan falters because the investement in the portfolio suck or because more people are retiring than are paying in....the government....the taxpayer...has to put even MORE money into the plan.

However, in now way, no how, no form are the employees paying 100% of their pension costs. More like 10% when you count the additional deposits required just to keep the plan from going bankrupt.

I know...I know.... I'm talking to a rock or a person with the level of understanding of a 3rd grader.

Dust Bunny Queen বলেছেন...

oops typo

Make that $120 dollars for the $1000 dollars in pay.

Still not enough to cover the GUARANTEED pension for life.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

DBQ
Public employees in Wisconsin pay 100% of their pension and health care benefits. They collectively bargained a total compensation package, and collectively decided how to divvy it all up i.e. paid vacations, wages, retirement, etc. This is an indisputable fact, and you are simply wrong.

I admit to not knowing exactly how other states run theirs. The pension fund in this state is nearly 100% funded.

KCFleming বলেছেন...

Shorter GM:

"I don't get it.

Type slower.
"

Roger J. বলেছেন...

Really and truly: Garage simply does not understand how a pension plan works--genuinely sad.

Michael বলেছেন...

Garage: My dear man, please, I beg you, stop. Please stop. Please.

Brad বলেছেন...

"Not sure what's up with Wisconsin Republicans, they are the biggest lying assholes in the country."

Says the ......

Roger J. বলেছেন...

and worse, continues to argue!

the employee pays a small amount; the total retirement compensation less the pretax contributions from the worthless public sector employees is funded by the taxpayers of wisconsin.

but at least they still have the packers and allens

Dust Bunny Queen বলেছেন...

Public employees in Wisconsin pay 100% of their pension and health care benefits.

/throws up hands in disgust.

(Truly, he doesn't get it at all.) I hope you don't do your own taxes or your own investments.

Roger J. বলেছেন...

Liberals are just fucking stupid--Abjectly stupid--and the proof is here on this very thread--well, at least one liberal. Two if you count the "journalist"

Chip S. বলেছেন...

One issue, garage, is how to measure the cost of a defined-benefit pension fund. "Fully funded" means that the estimated future returns on the portfolio of assets held by the state pension fund match up with current estimates of future benefit payments. Notice the importance of estimates here.

As recently as 2008 it was claimed that California's pension fund, Calpers, was completely sound. Two years later, it was impossible to deny that the state faced a public pension crisis.

There's no way to avoid the riskiness of future investment income, but that risk can be borne in different ways. In a defined-benefit plan, workers bear the risk that the system will simply not be able to meet its obligations if returns fall too low. In a defined-contribution plan, they face uncertainty over the exact value of their pension assets at retirement.

The main difference between the two is the risk that a public-pension meltdown will cripple the entire government budget. That means, of course, that public workers are having their risk subsidized by taxpayers. If they're truly public-spirited civil servants, they'll agree to a switch to a defined-contribution plan.

Are they?

Automatic_Wing বলেছেন...

They get paid from the people they work for. Shouldn't be too hard to grasp, I would think.

Yes, garage, they get paid by the people...the people who elected Scott Walker.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

(Truly, he doesn't get it at all.) I hope you don't do your own taxes or your own investments.

I certainly wouldn't have you do them. Stick to a state you know something about, if that state exists.

They negotiated a total compensation package. If you cannot understand this then I feel sorry for you.

Roger J. বলেছেন...

And the Greeks negotiated a total compensation package--that hasnt worked out real well--To keep focused on the issue: the tax payers of wisconsin are on the hook to pay the pension--the workers are NOT paying the full --you are

garage mahal বলেছেন...

the tax payers of wisconsin are on the hook to pay the pension--the workers are NOT paying the full --you are

It's becoming a fail parade now.

No wonder you guys hate teachers and unions. You don't understand how they work.

Chip S. বলেছেন...

They negotiated a total compensation package. If you cannot understand this then I feel sorry for you.

The unions have already claimed that they're willing to accept cuts in their compensation, but not limitations on the collective bargaining process through which their total compensation package is negotiated. If you've paid any attention at all to the arguments of the conservatives here and elsewhere, you know that it is the ultimate political corruption of this negotiation process that is fundamentally at issue. That's why all your buds in Madison have been making asses of themselves all spring, and why Walker and his allies haven't budged a bit.

Curious George বলেছেন...

Seven Machos said...
I heard Emily Mills likes Limp Bizkit and the whole nu-metal scene.

Dunno. Most surely likes whisker biscuit.

Roger J. বলেছেন...

Tell you what Garage--when the state of wisconsin is required to pay the compensation, and runs out of money, what happens

What happens when the state is out of money? The pensions get paid?
really? as Jeremy would said: GFL

Like DBQ: not worth continuing this discussion.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

not worth continuing this discussion.

Agreed.

Michael বলেছেন...

Garage: There are people commenting here who are experts on pension funds. Experts. Why would you at least not try and learn something from them? Why would you not open your mind to the possibility that what you think you know about the Wisconsin Public Employees Pension program is not correct? I am astonished that you would confuse what you think you know with what DBQ and others in fact know.

Roger J. বলেছেন...

we probably can agree on the packers too :)

test বলেছেন...

" I'm not a political ideologue. I don't even care that much about politics. I care about truth and the ability of human beings to reason and to interact with each other."

And yet a vote for Obama was a vote to support these very people.

Roger J. বলেছেন...

Michael--as Mr Rumsfeld noted about known knowns, known unknowns, unknown known etc, is probably applicable

garage mahal বলেছেন...

Garage: There are people commenting here who are experts on pension funds. Experts.

Who?

Here is an article which our resident pension experts may want to read.

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

David53 বলেছেন...
এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।
Chip S. বলেছেন...

There are three distinct issues here. One is a labor-compensation issue, about which garage is correct--or, rather, he would be correct if the pensions were of the defined-contribution type. Of course, they're not, which is why the issues of risk-bearing and political considerations are so important. The link garage provided only addresses the first issue.

Given your complete failure to address the issues that are unique to defined-benefit pensions, garage, I conclude that you haven't been able to find any suitable talking points at the usual lefty sites.

There's a good reason for that.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

Roger
I would rather wish you good health than argue with you honestly. I will say your perception of Madison and the unions is seriously distorted purposely by reading about it on this blog. Madison is a beautiful city and a great place to raise kids, we have had? real good schools. I was through TN a few times last month, but on on the other side, if I was nearer I wanted take you out for some ribs.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

ChipS
You raise valid arguments, its exceedingly rare to see anymore, so thanks. It is true if the WPR collapsed through some calamity taxpayers would be on the hook. Of course the cynic in me thinks Walker just wants at that money in the pension funds to give away.

Roger J. বলেছেন...

Garage: and thanks--good health to your daughter as well--hope she is doing well--

I am doing OK. And can we agree on the packers? a great superbowl win for a classy team

take care.

doesnt mean of course we cant argue about politics, but if you play your cards right you may get some more ribs :)

Chip S. বলেছেন...

Of course the cynic in me thinks Walker just wants at that money in the pension funds to give away.

Hell, the cynic in me suspects that of every politician. That's why I tend toward libertarianism. I think that without the full-immersion-liberalism that living in Madison seems to entail, you might tend toward libertarianism yourself.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

Roger
Oh yea, the Pack is gold. And they'll get half of their team back from injuries. Just hope they don't get too full of themselves. If there's a season that is.

Carol_Herman বলেছেন...

Wow! More than 300 comments "along this line."

And, nobody is reporting that Abrahamson hasn't broken a sweat, yet.

Me thinks she has.

Augustine বলেছেন...

http://www.emilymills.org/about.html Does this even require comment?

Michael বলেছেন...

Garage: there is a little linguistic trick in the article you proffered. It defines the state's contribution (including shortfalls)as being the employee's money only deferred. So the teacher making 100k per year is really making 150k per year and not paying tax on the "deferred" piece. I somehow don't think the IRS would concur with this reasoning. What is accurate is that 100 cents of every dollar contributed by the employee is the employee's contribution. LOL.

And by the way, Wisconsin's plan is no different than many states, there is no secret sauce only understood by Wisconsinites.
DBQ would be an expert in pension and profit sharing plans if you cared to read what she writes.

garage mahal বলেছেন...

What is accurate is that 100 cents of every dollar contributed by the employee is the employee's contribution. LOL.

They really aren't contributing anything, they decided how to receive a compensation package they negotiated with the state.

Michael বলেছেন...

Garage: "They really aren't contributing anything, they decided how to receive a compensation package they negotiated with the state."

Stick with this version since it appears to absolve you from thought.

Dust Bunny Queen বলেছেন...
এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।
Dust Bunny Queen বলেছেন...

there is a little linguistic trick in the article you proffered. It defines the state's contribution (including shortfalls)as being the employee's money only deferred. So the teacher making 100k per year is really making 150k per year and not paying tax on the "deferred" piece. I somehow don't think the IRS would concur with this reasoning.

Defined Benefit plans are based on compensation, earned income. In order for the compensation to be EARNED income it must show on your check or W-2 as earned income. The employee contributions come out pre tax and are considered part of the employees wages, just as Garage managed to drool.

The cost of the benefit packages of health insurance etc, are not even shown anywhere on the employee's W-2 or paycheck (with the exception of group life insurance over a certain level of compensation) because the employee is not taxed on the benefit. It is NOT part of compensation.

There are IRS limits on how much of your EARNED income you can defer. Read Publication 414 and 415 for starters.

http://www.irs.gov/govt/fslg/article/0,,id=181694,00.html

"For the employee contributions to be deemed picked up by the employer and therefore to be characterized as “employer contributions”, certain tests must be met. A series of rulings by the IRS established that only amounts that the governmental employer pays but does not withhold or otherwise offset from the employee’s salary are considered employer contributions, and are therefore excludable from gross income."

The employer pick up or employer contribution is not part the employees wages.

The IRS has limits on how much the employee can exempt from gross or taxable income. Exceed these limits and you are in BIG trouble with the IRS and your plan may even be invalidated.

THIS is why the lions share of the pension plan contribution for the employee is paid for BY THE EMPLOYER and not the employee.

Plus if the plan fails to meet actuaraial testing the employer NOT the employee is on the hook for making up the short fall.

DBP are going the way of the dinosaur in the private sector. It is only in the public sector that they continue because the cash cow....the taxpayers...are held hostage to the unions.

The only ONLY people that I set these plans up for were professional firms (like lawyers and doctors where the principals were highly compensated and wanted to make the contributions) who didn't have many employees or had family members as employees.

THIS is what I used to do before retirement.

Garage is a moron.

Cedarford বলেছেন...

George - "With the country in the midst of a civil cold war you really don't have the luxury of not taking sides. It is foolish to think that you can get out of taking a stand."

The problem is both Parties have highly unpalatable positions. And candidates. And whoredom to special interests, many that have Fealty from both parties. While voters vote to the detriment of the nation overall on who gives them the most government goodies (be it welfare, free prescription drugs, ability to outsource their jobs to China, neocon wars, etc)Which forces people in the middle to take the least bad "side".

If things really collapse in the next 5 years, the answer may be a military junta to reform America. A Convention to fix the fatal flaws in the Constitution. And set up a new, limited franchise American Democracy that won't fail like the last one did in the 2,000-2020 era.

Michael বলেছেন...

DBQ: A moron you can feel sorry for. Garage is stubbornly stupid, resolute in his refusal to consider that he might be wrong.

Nutty fucking place they live in,no?

I always read and appreciate your posts.

B বলেছেন...

garage mahal said...
"They really aren't contributing anything, they decided how to receive a compensation package they negotiated with the state."

You are a fool. I hope your wife handles all the finances in your house.

I read your link. In it's entirety. And applied a modicum of critical thinking to what was said. What you consider the basis for your claim, is distilled in the author's statement:

'The labor agreements show that the pension plan money is part of the total negotiated compensation. The key phrase, in those agreements I read (emphasis added), is: "The Employer shall contribute on behalf of the employee." This shows that this is just divvying up the total compensation package, so much for cash wages, so much for paid vacations, so much for retirement, etc.'

The author is a jackass. The last sentence in the quote - it shows no such thing. Saying that immediately after the preceding sentence makes him an clueless jackass. As are you for buying into his nonsense. One of the commenters to that article summed this up rather nicely:

'This is sophistry. By this logic, employees always contribute 100% of their benefits, even if they actually contribute a lower percentage than that. Consider a private sector worker who has 40% of the cost of his health insurance premiums deducted from his paycheck. Would you say he actually pays 100% of the cost of his health insurance, because he accepted the 60% employer contribution in lieu of increased wages?'

The rest of the knowledgeable comments to that article also quickly establish the solid basis for considering the author's stance asinine.

You are utterly fucking stupid.

B বলেছেন...

BTW, garage.

The author is not a private sector financial consultant, nor tax professional, nor contract professional...he is a teacher. He teaches the tax, property and regulatory law of the ancient world at Syracuse University College of Law and Whitman School of Management.

Of the ancient world.

JorgXMcKie বলেছেন...

I had to give up before reading all the comments, but I do think you guys fail to understand the effort it must take to both write complete sentences and still pretend to be as stupid as Garbage.

Seriously. The dude is earning his Soros money. I'll bet after a session on a thread like this he's totally exhausted.

Michael Haz বলেছেন...

I'm going to bed early tonight in order to be fully rested for the unveiling of Emily Mills's totally kick-ass post tomorrow morning in which she forever refutes everything Althouse has posted about the Bradley-Prosser rumble, opens Al Capone's safe, and tells Meade exactly where he can plant his garden.

This is gonna be so cool.

Alex বলেছেন...

In garage-world, Althouse is always the villain and liberals are always the saints.

Alex বলেছেন...

Another hit piece on Prosser

sarge বলেছেন...

sarge here miz althousefrau protests too much harharhar

নামহীন বলেছেন...

The leftists are on the run. Release the dogs.

Will বলেছেন...

Emily Mills' new blog post up here: http://is.gd/9DjVJ7

She acknowledges error only in not linking.

Scott M বলেছেন...

Is that an actual picture of her with the drum?

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নামহীন বলেছেন...

Emily Mills makes dishonest assertions all the time. I`m glad that you and others point this out. Partisan politics is the meal of the decade.



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নামহীন বলেছেন...

This led to my next piece, analyzing the political reasoning behind Lueders's attack. There, I noted how the ephedra Lueders piece inspired lefty bloggers to go all out attacking Prosser in ways that will now — after the Journal Sentinel piece — be used to leverage arguments against Bradley. I repeated my statement "if it's true Prosseradipex reached a breaking point and started strangling Bradley, he should go." And I called for principled consistency

নামহীন বলেছেন...

What? Emily makes no effort to back up that characterization of me. My posts about the Wisconsin Supreme Court are all collected here. Any fair reader can see that I'm endeavoring to understand the stories that have appeared in the press, critiquing Generic Cialis the press, and asking a lot of sensible questions. It's not even fair to call me a "Prosser supporter," let alone assert that I've "gone to great and terrible lengths" to "excuse... attack... [and] impugn" anybody.

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