Althouse: "And so you look at something like the 17th century Brandenburg Gate and you think

December 12, 2010

"And so you look at something like the 17th century Brandenburg Gate and you think – oh my, how splendid."

"Until you think about who passed through its gates and why. And you can’t help but recall all things having to do with military strength and conquest. And how are you supposed to process it? Are you supposed to smile for the camera? Pose, and with a person making a Euro by imitating a German soldier? On this cold day there are several such 'soldiers' for you to choose from: from the wars of the past century, from the post war Soviet presence here – pick your poison. In the alternative you can stand next to a bear."

57 comments:

Chad said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 12/12/10, 9:21 AM
Bob_R said...: Berlin has a lot of strange contradictions. I was there for a few weeks a year or so after the wall came down. They were building a shopping mall where checkpoint Charlie had been. No marker at the place where Karla dropped Smiley's lighter.; 12/12/10, 9:24 AM
tim maguire said...: God forbid you note something of historical importance. History is violent, wouldn't you know? "People suffered! The horror!"

Is it wrong to visit Rome knowing that Christians were fed to the lions? Oops, I mean knowing Caligula had sex with his sister. Oops, I mean lions were mistreated prior to eating the Christians?

Yeah, can we visit Rome knowing Lions were mistreated?; 12/12/10, 9:30 AM
Joe said...: (The Crypto Jew)
More bleeding heart liberal drivel. Heard it all before.

Gee Chad, would you care to explain? I doubt I’m a bleeding heart liberal and I could have given you the SAME travelogue…

Go stand on the podium in Nurnberg, that was the focus of Riefenstahl’s “Triumph of the Will”…as a non-German…it’ll send a shiver up your spine….
So anyway Chad, how do we know she’s a liberal and what so incenses you about the entry? My Life Partner gets tired of this melancholy tourism, but it’s not because it’s too liberal, just that it detracts from the joy of the moment. But your objection seems different…; 12/12/10, 9:34 AM
ricpic said...: The Brandenburg Gate was built by Frederick William between 1688 - 1691. Its structure was based on the gateway to the Acropolis. After the defeat of Napoleon the gate was enhanced with additional symbols of Prussian power. All these things mean nothing to a smug self-satisfied essentially ignorant and shallow modern person. German history was not only the Nazis. And glory, yes glory, was once the great motivation behind the immense feats achieved by western man in every sphere of human endeavor.; 12/12/10, 9:44 AM
chickelit said...: Nina seems to hold several grudges at once. Is she the only person you know from around there?

The soldiers and men from both sides offer complex and interesting stories: Helmuth James von Moltke for one. His family name is associated with a bridge spanning the river Spree just west of the Reichstag. And of course with much else. He was most active in Berlin.

Full disclosure: Rome and Berlin are my favorite European cites, history-wise.

wv "arcegur"
Sound like some sort of anal douche.; 12/12/10, 9:47 AM
Chad said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 12/12/10, 9:48 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Is it wrong to visit Rome knowing that Christians were fed to the lions? Oops, I mean knowing Caligula had sex with his sister. Oops, I mean lions were mistreated prior to eating the Christians?"

Caligula? The Columbia political science professor?; 12/12/10, 9:57 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Nina seems to hold several grudges at once. Is she the only person you know from around there?"

From around where? Warsaw? Yes!; 12/12/10, 9:58 AM
chickelit said...: From around where? Warsaw? Yes!

Ah! My bad. I thought you were offering her up as some sort of expert on Berlin.

Cue Merry Minuet; 12/12/10, 10:01 AM
Joe said...: (The Crypto Jew)
And glory, yes glory, was once the great motivation behind the immense feats achieved by western man in every sphere of human endeavor.

Glory, glory looks a little different when you’re a drummer boy smashed to a pulp at the Battle of Leipzig, or a Spanish peon dying of starvation during the Peninsular Campaign, or a Tommie or a member of the Kaiserheer drowning in the mud of Passchendaele or one of the 6 week volunteers mowed down at Das Kindermord or a Canadian drowning in their own fluids from a Chlorine attack, eh? The Brandenburg Gate may commemorate the “Glory” of the KING’S View of war, but it domes up a little short of summing up the rest of it….

Chad I must have missed the part where she said those who fought were “scum.” And truly I might have, just point it out please.; 12/12/10, 10:01 AM
Unknown said...: Just think, if Angie Merkel hadn't had a bigger pair than The Zero, you could also get your picture taken with a guy who looks like the recently abdicated POTUS.

PS If he does resign, think about who's next.; 12/12/10, 10:02 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Ah! My bad. I thought you were offering her up as some sort of expert on Berlin."

There are some weather problems in Europe.; 12/12/10, 10:05 AM
Clyde said...: I have fond memories of painting graffiti on the Berlin Wall by the Brandenburg Gate in January 1989, just before leaving the city where I'd lived for 3-1/2 years. And yes, I painted "PISS ON THE WALL" in bright red letters and then proceeded to do just that, as a political statement.

I had three cans of spray paint, one that I'd bought for myself and two others that I'd received as a Christmas present. I started at Potsdamer Platz, which had been a bustling commercial area before the Wall went up -- and is now again. In '89, though, it was a no-man's land hard by the wall.

I was doing my graffiti under cover of darkness, which comes early in Berlin in the dead of winter. At one point, I was stopped by a British military police jeep patrol and told, "It's against regu-lye-tions to pint on the Wall," so I told them, "Well, I guess I won't need this, then," and tossed my spray-paint can in a nearby trash can. They drove off and I retrieved my paint and went back to work.

Ah, those were the days!; 12/12/10, 10:05 AM
ricpic said...: Hey Joe, we've all heard the commie view of history, it's practically the only view allowed nowadays and it's just as skewed as the view of kings.; 12/12/10, 10:06 AM
Clyde said...: It's understandable that anyone from Poland would have little love for either the Germans or the Russians. It's never good to live between two strong, militaristic neighbors.; 12/12/10, 10:11 AM
Automatic_Wing said...: She could process it by thinking about everything America did to keep the Soviet "presence" on that side of the wall. And reflect on how American strength and determination freed the rest of Europe without firing a shot.

I guess it's too much to ask for a citizen of the world like Nina to be proud of her own country's accomplishments for even a moment.; 12/12/10, 10:27 AM
chickelit said...: There are some weather problems in Europe.

There's always Skype.
_________________
ww = "neebel"
now that's fogblather!; 12/12/10, 10:36 AM
Fen said...: And you can’t help but recall all things having to do with military strength and conquest. And how are you supposed to process it?

Awww poor baby.; 12/12/10, 10:37 AM
chickelit said...: I guess it's too much to ask for a citizen of the world like Nina to be proud of her own country's accomplishments for even a moment.

I Like Lech; 12/12/10, 10:40 AM
tim maguire said...: Yes, Prof., that was the reference. I'm not suggesting he's Caligula (who was hated primarily for executing people willy nilly), but it fit the "pick your poison" narrative I was working with and the juxtaposition amused me.

Besides, one can say that Hitler was a vegetarian without suggesting vegetarians are Hitler.; 12/12/10, 10:44 AM
reader_iam said...: What do people here have against Nina in recent times? I'm honestly puzzled. Every time she comes up on the blog, there seems to be such hostility. Somehow, I missed the inception and the history, so it never really makes sense to me.

I enjoy Nina's blog for various reasons. One of them is that she reminds me in some ways of an aunt who was born and raised in Europe (though in Western, not Eastern). They share some of the the same sensibilities, which are interesting to me.; 12/12/10, 10:54 AM
Fen said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 12/12/10, 10:58 AM
Joan said...: I read Nina every day, have for years. The assumptions the commenters here are making about her and her philosophies are laughably ignorant.

Nina's travel posts are brilliant and thought-provoking, and her Berlin post was among her best. Nina's blog has provided me with many virtual vacations.

I'm sorry to see so many come out with knives sharpened just because Nina points out the absurdity of being able to pose with someone dressed as a German soldier -- or a bear! -- next to such a historically significant piece of architecture.; 12/12/10, 11:01 AM
Fen said...: Maybe we see her name and think Nina Totenberg of NPR? I know I did.; 12/12/10, 11:01 AM
rcocean said...: I love her blog, great pictures. People are probably getting tired of the "I visited Germany & I thought of Hitler" meme.; 12/12/10, 11:20 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "People are probably getting tired of the "I visited Germany & I thought of Hitler" meme."

A reason never to go to Germany, in my way of thinking about it. I've never wanted to go and I never will go. And I have German ancestry... people who got out before the 19th century. And I'm staying out.; 12/12/10, 11:26 AM
Anonymous said...: Nina and Ann, both law profs at Wisconsin, both divorced and with children, have very different blogs. I consider Ann's something like a debate blog (a blog of ideas), where Ann comments on whatever she notices around her or is reading, and then lets her readers respond, while Nina's blog is really a personal diary. She stays away from all mention of politics and news and current events. Reading Nina's blog, we follow the changes of the season, how her children are doing, her shifting from one living residence to another, her love of food, and her relationship with her "occasional traveling companion." Both blogs are worth reading, but their goals are very different.

*; 12/12/10, 11:30 AM
Irene said...: I second what Joan said. I don't travel any longer, and I truly enjoy Nina's accounts of her trips.

Some days, when I am feeling blue, I click on her sidebar to "visit" one of the cities she's described and photographed, and I escape for a few minutes.

Venice.; 12/12/10, 11:35 AM
HKatz said...: Until you think about who passed through its gates and why. And you can’t help but recall all things having to do with military strength and conquest. And how are you supposed to process it? Are you supposed to smile for the camera? Pose, and with a person making a Euro by imitating a German soldier?

Here's the full quote (earlier one commenter excerpted only part of it and left out the main point).

I love her observations about the absurdities she sees, the feel of the city, the way she tries to get a sense of Berlin these days, what it's like for children and young people who never lived through the 20th century turmoil in Germany. And the shadow of history over everything.; 12/12/10, 11:43 AM
reader_iam said...: I've never wanted to go and I never will go. And I have German ancestry... people who got out before the 19th century. And I'm staying out.

Heh. From that point of view, fortunately the Knochels--the German branch of my family--came in the same time period from a much-contested part of Germany, so it's now part of France. You ought to have chosen more regionally sensitive ancestors, Althouse! ; ); 12/12/10, 11:43 AM
Anonymous said...: By the way, even in Iraq there are personal-diary bloggers who, like Nina, never talk about politics. Here's a blog-entry introducing one of them, a guy who calls himself Shaggy:

Shaggy Daze.

Below the text you'll find a bunch of links to Shaggy's Excellent Adventures. Caution: many of them are wickedly funny.

*; 12/12/10, 12:03 PM
Clyde said...: Ann wrote:

"A reason never to go to Germany, in my way of thinking about it. I've never wanted to go and I never will go. And I have German ancestry... people who got out before the 19th century. And I'm staying out."

This is akin to saying that the legacy of slavery and segregation is a reason never to visit the southern United States.

The past is the past. Bad things have happened pretty much everywhere. If you restrict yourself to visiting places where nothing bad has ever happened, well, then you run the risk of having your Antarctic tour boat disabled by a rogue wave. And while penguins are scenic, they don't build castles or cathedrals, and the local cuisine is pretty much limited to fish and lichens.; 12/12/10, 12:24 PM
Joe said...: (The Crypto Jew)

The “commie view of history”, how about the HISTORY view of History? Read Just and Unjust Wars or Kagan’s The Face of Battle. Both of which point out that the 20th C. has been an era of MASS slaughter. The people dying in this century, in the War to End All Wars or the Great Patriotic War, were almost uniformly CONSCRIPTS, given little choice in their commitment to the slaughter. Further, the 20th C. has seen the bulk of all casualties, be CIVILIANS. So the “Glory” wears a bit thin, wouldn’t you say? A mass of unwilling conscripts is on a battlefield dying and killing, all the while millions of con-combatants are burning, starving, or simply expiring from disease. That ain’t the “commie view of history” that’s history.

Prior you MIGHT make a case for Fredrick Grosse, but really his army and the armies of his opponents may have been “volunteers” but really were they? “Glory” ceases when the participants cannot run away from the battle, i.e., Tribal Warfare. THEN all the participants have volunteered for the danger and VOLUNTARILY stuck around thru it, and hence there may be “glory.”

I don’t dispute “honour,” “bravery,” or “necessity” in war. Audi Murphy was a brave man, an honourable one who would not leave his unit in the lurch, and he fought in a “necessary” war…but I dispute the “Glory” of it. And as to the Pour le Merite I imagine that went to officers, not the people doing the bulk of the dying, the Potsdam Grenadiers. So I question the “glory” of the Seven Years War, too.; 12/12/10, 12:52 PM
jungatheart said...: Bob R:
"Berlin has a lot of strange contradictions. I was there for a few weeks a year or so after the wall came down. They were building a shopping mall where checkpoint Charlie had been. No marker at the place where Karla dropped Smiley's lighter."

Great post, Bob. I wonder for how many years people will pass by and comment, 'that's where Checkpoint Charlie used to be'?

Great story, Clyde. :); 12/12/10, 12:56 PM
Joe said...: (The Crypto Jew)
Great post, Bob. I wonder for how many years people will pass by and comment, 'that's where Checkpoint Charlie used to be'?

Or who Smiley and Karla were…..; 12/12/10, 1:14 PM
chickelit said...: Althouse said:
A reason never to go to Germany, in my way of thinking about it. I've never wanted to go and I never will go. And I have German ancestry... people who got out before the 19th century. And I'm staying out.

Sounds like you're ashamed of your own ancestry (I wonder if just your paternal ancestry?) when you shouldn't be.

That's gotta hurt.; 12/12/10, 1:33 PM
rcocean said...: People tell me Germany is a great place for beer and good white wine. And the Rhineland and Bavaria are quite pretty.

I wouldn't mind going, but a lot of Europe seems more interesting. After all, how many Frenchmen, Austrians, Spaniards, Swiss and Italians vacation in Germany?; 12/12/10, 1:44 PM
jungatheart said...: @ Joe: dear, dear Smiley.; 12/12/10, 4:17 PM
Zach said...: Proof that visiting Vacationville is different from living in a city. I live in East Berlin, and I don't find it charming in the least.

Berlin is grim in the winter. The sun is up from about 10 to 3:30, and it never gets brighter than twilight. The buildings are huge, ugly and crumbling. Every business closes at 6 PM, so there's nothing to do after work. You have to go to Mitte to find a coffee shop.; 12/12/10, 5:42 PM
chickelit said...: @Zach:

How can you go on living?; 12/12/10, 5:47 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Sounds like you're ashamed of your own ancestry (I wonder if just your paternal ancestry?) when you shouldn't be."

No, I'm not. I'm descended from people who were persecuted and got out before the 19th century, as I already said. Pennsylvania Dutch. I'm not at all ashamed of them.

As for going to the south, I did avoid it for a long time. But traveling around the U.S. is quite a different thing for me than going to some distant country. I have to really want to go to go somewhere in Europe. Why would I pick Germany? I barely want to leave my country anyway. If I'm going somewhere, it's not going to be Germany. Part of going to Germany would certainly have to be thinking about the Nazis. I don't need that kind of vacation. If I need to do my time contemplating Nazis, I'll read a book.; 12/12/10, 8:13 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "People tell me Germany is a great place for beer and good white wine."

So is the liquor store.; 12/12/10, 8:14 PM
Andrea said...: Re thinking of Hitler when going to Germany:

"A reason never to go to Germany, in my way of thinking about it. I've never wanted to go and I never will go."

Gosh. I went to Germany in 1981. I didn't think of Hitler once, not even when we passed several World War 2 battlefields. There were just so many other things to think about. For one thing, the wall was still up -- we only went to West Germany. For another thing, we were in friggin' Europe, surrounded by history, good and bad. Hitler was just a blip, if a rather large one.

I don't know. The whole obsession with Hitler seems to have passed me by. Sometimes I think people keep dredging him up as a way to make themselves look profound. Unless you deliberately went on a WW2-themed tour, it mostly just makes you look like you get your sense of history from tv.; 12/12/10, 8:22 PM
Beth said...: It's nice to hear from reader_iam, Joan and Irene on this. Some of the knee-jerk assholedome in these comments reminds me of the dogs in Up - only instead of "squirrel!" it's "liberal!" that sets them drooling and running in a pack.; 12/12/10, 8:23 PM
reader_iam said...: Every business closes at 6 PM, so there's nothing to do after work.

No cooking at home or with family, friends or neighbors. No reading at home or with family, friends or neighbors. No playing games at home or with family, friends or neighbors. No woodworking at home or with family, friends or neighbors. No crafts or making things at home or with family, friends or neighbors. No making music, or sharing music, at home or with family, friends or neighbors. No playing with pets at home or with family, friends or neighbors. No playing sports at home or with family, friends or neighbors. No taking walks at home or with family, friends or neighbors. No studying things of interest only to oneself, no making love with a lover, no taking joy at a child's learning. No raking grass, edging common grounds, worshiping God, standing head up, neck back, eyes focused on the cosmos.

And, goodness knows, no Internet.

[Etc. Amen. So help me.

/OT]; 12/12/10, 9:32 PM
reader_iam said...: No TV, no radio, no sewing, no mechanical tinkering. No chemical experiments, no fixing up. No poetry, no baking. No sports. No invention. No popcorn.

Alas.

[Etc. Amen. So help me.

/OT]

(For real, this time.); 12/12/10, 9:42 PM
reader_iam said...: What's better to contemplate: the splendid or the un-splendid?; 12/12/10, 9:57 PM
jungatheart said...: Jeeze, lighten up on Zach, Suzie Sunshines (chick and reader!) It sounds quite oppressive, as he describes it. Of course, to spy novel fans, it sounds quite cozy. ;)

Hang in there, Zach!; 12/12/10, 10:08 PM
reader_iam said...: Deborah: Heavy up on your sarcasm/irony meter. Zach, on the other hand, would do well to lighten up therein.

wv: rodicar; 12/12/10, 10:16 PM
rcocean said...: Some of the knee-jerk assholedome in these comments reminds me of the dogs in Up - only instead of "squirrel!" it's "liberal!" that sets them drooling and running in a pack.
_____________________________________

Beth exposes the liberal assholery that always seems to lurk beneath their seemingly reasonable surface.

Liberals, you see, no matter how much power they have, or how much they've imposed their will & beliefs on everyone else, are always the victims, or the set upon - but morally and intellectually superior - minority.

I could ask Beth to expand on her comment, but no doubt I'd get only emotion and vague comments about how we aren't sufficiently "sensitive".; 12/12/10, 10:24 PM
jungatheart said...: Reader, please clarify; should I be more or less sarcastic, or more or less sensitive to the sarcasm of others?; 12/12/10, 11:35 PM
reader_iam said...: Wow, another one bites the dust.

Life gets easier, in one way, the fewer people one feels compelled, based on experience, to respect as the first impulse in encountering their opinions on any topic.

So, thanks, rcocean. At least you surprised me as you deflated.; 12/12/10, 11:53 PM
reader_iam said...: Reader, please clarify; should I be more or less sarcastic, or more or less sensitive to the sarcasm of others?

You should be yourself, of course.; 12/13/10, 12:01 AM
nina said...: Thank you for the very generous comments here (to those who were the generous authors). I understand people may have different reactions to history. My point is that in Berlin that history is awfully fresh and in that freshness lies a potency that can overwhelm.

That is not to say that one cannot have other experiences there, too. Young people especially appear to love Berlin for its edgy, cosmopolitan face.

I'm not young and I am Polish, so Berlin and Moscow have additional layers of meaning for me. Which is why I titled the post "layers." There are many such layers to these cities and I think experiencing them and thinking about them and even writing about them is important.

So again, thanks to those who commented here (and on Ocean).; 12/13/10, 12:46 AM
Hanah said...: When I was at the Brandenburg Gate last summer, I posed for a picture with a guy dressed in a Star Wars Stormtrooper costume.; 12/13/10, 6:35 AM
Fen said...: Nina: So again, thanks to those who commented here

Sorry I knee-jerked and confused you with Totenburg. Thats what I get for not looking over your blog more carefully.; 12/13/10, 8:09 AM