Althouse: “Whatever Israel does, Amnesty is still going to say it was acting illegally/violating human rights.”

June 3, 2010

“Whatever Israel does, Amnesty is still going to say it was acting illegally/violating human rights.”

David Bernstein paraphrases.

198 comments:

bagoh20 said...: "Q. If Amnesty claims that there’s an occupation there should be a definition of when there’s no occupation. Amnesty claims that Israel needs to open all the crossings for free movement from Gaza to Israel and remove the sea and land siege on Gaza, meaning let Gaza be open to the entire world with no connection to Israel, but under those circumstances the occupation no longer exists. So why is there a need to transfer supplies to Gaza? Does Amnesty by the same logic demand the American forces in Afghanistan to help the Taliban? And take care of the sick among the Taliban? That’s the question, when does the occupation end?

A. I admit that I don’t understand the question. I’m unclear as to what kind of answer you expect."

You mean we should think about our position before we spew it to see if it makes any sense even to us?

The answer is simple: Israel must stop occupying Israel.; 6/3/10, 10:12 AM
Fred4Pres said...: The answer is simple: Israel must stop occupying Israel.

We have a Amnesty International winner!; 6/3/10, 10:14 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: The answer is simple: Israel must stop occupying Israel.

That pretty much sums up the default position of the 'international community'.; 6/3/10, 10:15 AM
Anonymous said...: The only solution is the destruction of Israel and the forced departure of the Israelis.; 6/3/10, 10:19 AM
garage mahal said...: Human Rights. LOL; 6/3/10, 10:22 AM
Triangle Man said...: Israel must stop occupying Israel.

bogoh20 wins the thread!; 6/3/10, 10:24 AM
Alex said...: Human Rights. LOL

Jews eat babies.; 6/3/10, 10:28 AM
Alex said...: Specifically Neocon Likudnik Zionist Jews eat Palestinian babies.; 6/3/10, 10:30 AM
GMay said...: I love the comments section over at VC. The lefties and anti-Zionists are much higher class over there.

Summing up the post and the comments, you basically get down to the standard lefty/anti-zionist flaw: you have to ignore one absolutely crucial bit of information over and over and over for your argument to work. In this case, it's the fact that Gaza shares a border with Egypt.; 6/3/10, 10:34 AM
Tank said...: Don't forget they also drink the blood of small children.; 6/3/10, 10:34 AM
traditionalguy said...: The Muslim position has always been to kill all Jews unless they acknowledge that allah is a greater god by paying a tax to the Muslims. The area ruled by Turkey thru absentee landowners not yet purchased by Zionists and called Palestine was cut into three pieces: 60% was added to Jordan, 20% was to becalled an Arab state of Palestine and 20% was called a Jewish state of Israel. The next morning after the UN vote 5 Arab armies attacked to kill all the Jews. The Arabs in Israel's 20% ran away temporaily to be safe during the war of the jewish slaughter, and they are still waiting to go back when the slaughter the Jews is over... and now Obama has given them the word to do it while he sets up Israel to surrender their strong points to "Make Peace" even as they are under attacks that will not end until they are to slaughtered. Sorry Obama, the jews in Israel know that every word out of your Kenyan mouth is another lie, and they will fight to win.; 6/3/10, 10:35 AM
Steve M. Galbraith said...: Remember: some knuckleheads (if not worse) carrying racist signs at a Tea Party protest means the entire movement is corrupt and sinister.

But the leaders of Hamas calling for the destruction of Israel doesn't tell us anything about the nature of that movement.

I'll repeat: the Arabs and Muslims who live in Israel enjoy more human rights and greater freedom than they do in any other country in the Middle East.

Sorry if those facts disturb you Garage.; 6/3/10, 10:37 AM
Steve M. Galbraith said...: In this case, it's the fact that Gaza shares a border with Egypt.

And, of course, the Palestinian territories share a border with Jordan.

A lefy posted here that Israel "confines the Palestinians their entire lives."

Israel controls none of the West Bank or territories outside of Gaza. The Palestinian people can come and go as they wish (except for those that want to set off bombs in Tel Aviv).; 6/3/10, 10:42 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: But the leaders of Hamas calling for the destruction of Israel doesn't tell us anything about the nature of that movement.

Well for those who go through their whole lives in a state of denial no it doesn't.

The entire Israeli-Arab peace process can be summed up by that classic scene in Goldfinger

Bond: Do you expect me to talk?

Ulrich Goldfinger: No Mr. Bond I expect you to die!; 6/3/10, 10:45 AM
Joe said...: I'm still trying to understand the concept of "occupying" another country by controlling it's border.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."; 6/3/10, 10:45 AM
Steve M. Galbraith said...: The American Right is thirsty for blood, as always, and the more blood is spilled the more they cheer!

Excuse me, but we on the "American Right" are not cheering or defending the group that calls for the destruction of an entire people.

One side calls for the destruction of the other. The other side wants to live in peace.

I know what side I'm on.; 6/3/10, 11:00 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: The American Right? For them, Israel can do no wrong. For them, the facts don't matter

What facts were those? That the Hamas sympathizers deliberately ignored the blockade and then attacked the Israelis trying to enforce it? Those facts or the ones you make up as you go?

The American Right is thirsty for blood, as always, and the more blood is spilled the more they cheer!

Yes that's why the American Right backs Hamas which openly calls for the destruction of Israel. What a tool you are.; 6/3/10, 11:02 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: One side calls for the destruction of the other. The other side wants to live in peace.

Well like I said before, when Hamas rhetoric is indistinguishable from the Nazi Party than I am quite comfortable siding with the Israelis.; 6/3/10, 11:04 AM
GMay said...: Dead Julius,

Wow, I guess since you had a flag up in your dorm room and post screenshots that were scribbled on with digital crayon, I'll change my mind right now!; 6/3/10, 11:07 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I mean I really, truly have to wonder at the mentality of those who decry a blockade as 'immoral' which is designed to prevent weapons from reaching a group of people who openly call for genocide of another group. I mean really people what parallel universe does this actually make sense to you?; 6/3/10, 11:10 AM
Steve M. Galbraith said...: when Hamas rhetoric is indistinguishable from the Nazi Party than I am quite comfortable siding with the Israelis

Yes, but we must remember than when Israel defends itself against the likes of Hamas that ordinary Palestinians often suffer too.

That, of course, is the problem they face. The radical Islamists use the Palestinians as cover for their aggression. And when Israel tries to prevent that aggression, sometimes the average Palestinian suffers.

So, I'll defend Israel when the facts are on their side. But if they don't have the facts, I'll criticize them.

But always with the understanding that they are facing an adversary that doesn't care about ethics or morals.

The left in America has some stick up their asses about Israel. Logic and facts don't sway them.; 6/3/10, 11:11 AM
GMay said...: Peace loving, tolerant, loving activists. But the American right is just so hateful!; 6/3/10, 11:23 AM
Unknown said...: Julius never got the word that you are killed just as dead by a lead pipe or a knife as by a firearm (if in doubt about slings - just ask that famous Palestinian, Goliath).

Not to mention the possession of stun grenades, which are kind of sophisticated weapons for "peace activists".; 6/3/10, 11:25 AM
Cedarford said...: Traditional guy spews 3 Big Lies the Zionists have shoveled down the mouths of less-educated Christian Zionist dupes for decades:

(1)The area ruled by Turkey thru absentee landowners not yet purchased by Zionists and called Palestine was cut into three pieces: 60% was added to Jordan, 20% was to becalled an Arab state of Palestine and 20% was called a Jewish state of Israel.
(2)The next morning after the UN vote 5 Arab armies attacked to kill all the Jews. (3)The Arabs in Israel's 20% ran away temporaily to be safe during the war of the jewish slaughter, and they are still waiting to go back when the slaughter the Jews is over...

1. Jordan was split off in 1922. Zionist claims that Jordan is the "real home" and somehow was the real Partition homeland was shown to be a lie back in the early 50s. As diplomats who devised the Partition said the Jews were lying, Jordan was never a consideration for Palestinian homeland. Not part of the Partition at all.

2. The "5 Arab armies" is a hoary Zionist lie. What happened was a month after Partition, when the full extent of Zionist cleansing of Palestinian Muslims and Christians became known - 5 nations called for volunteers to fight and defeat the Jews. They were to reconquer lands that the Jews had taken from Arabs in contravention to the Partition Zionists lie to this day about "We accepted, the Arabs rejected". Poorly organized, without heavy weapons - the volunteer Arab groups were outmanned and outgunned by the Zionist forces.
(continued); 6/3/10, 11:26 AM
bagoh20 said...: I saw in the video a "passenger" stabbing an Israeli in the back with a knife repeatedly. The soldier did not return the violence. He just took it, like all good Israelis are expected to. He's one of the good ones.; 6/3/10, 11:27 AM
Cedarford said...: 3. Perhaps one of the juiciest lies swallowed by dumb Christians in America is the Zionist "Secret Radio Broadcast Theory". First concocted by IDF in the 50s, this was central to Israel's claim it did not have to compensate the Christians and Muslims it stole land and possessions from - because they "voluntarily left, told to be Arab radio broadcasts, so that it would be easier for 'vast' Arab forces to slaughter all the Jews."
Unfortunately for the Zionist Big Lie, many Israelis had written about how they committed a number of atrocities in Christian and Muslim villages, then had the survivors flee to other villages...so they would flee and make "reclaimation of the sacred soil for the true Sons of Zion" easier.
To help settle this, as Jews were still lying about this into the 60s, the Brits allowed scholars access to all the SIGINT they and the Americans had compiled in the 1948 War. What they found was no Arab radio station ever broadcast any message for Palestinians to flee. To the contrary, the broadcasts continually urged Palestinians "stay and fight, at least do not flee - we are trying to get Muslims and Christians in other countries to help you, and we are demanding the UN enforce safe treatment of civilians by the Zionists".
While they were doing this, they also uncovered many battlefield communications between Ben-Gurion and field commanders that indicated, in euphemistic, coded language, that ethnic cleansing was policy, and was a strategic objective of the Zionists and had been planned well before Partition to "help reclaim all the soil to the legitimate heirs of it."

The whole story of how the Brits uncovered this Zionist lie by 1964 is covered in Christopher Hitchens remarkable essay detailing the investigation - called "Broadcast". Caught in their lie, the Zionists denied it from the 60s up to the 90s - and continued feeding it as "plucky Israeli truth" to the yokels at Alabama fish fry lunches at churches. Still do.
Eventually, in the 90s, perhaps in acknowledgement even the Soviets had fessed up at that point to Katyn Forest, Israeli scholars led by Benny Morris detailed the Arab cleansing and eradication program did exist was a strategic objective before Partition, and the strategic plan to reclaim all land for Jews and Jews alone was drafted back in the 1920s.
That some 400 villages were cleansed, and all trace of the villages systematically eradicated from 1948 - 1954 over protests that many buildings be preserved for new Settlers making Aliyah.(Right of return and settlement for all Jews); 6/3/10, 11:27 AM
lemondog said...: And look here! Israel shot an American citizen five times! He's dead, dead, dead... because that's what happens when you bring an army with guns to a stick fight!

And has it been proven definitively who killed him dead, dead, dead? A campaign to use a young American as a martyr to influence the media and further sway US opinion?

Their thirst for martyrdom isn't exactly unheard of.

Turkey honors 8 slain activists, including US teen

ISTANBUL — Mourners hoisted coffins above their heads Thursday to cheers of "God is great!" as they honored activists slain during an Israeli commando raid, and the father of the lone American killed praised his teenage son as being a martyr for a just cause.; 6/3/10, 11:28 AM
bagoh20 said...: C4,

The spot where you are sitting is likely formerly Native American land. I suggest you move or walk into the ocean. It's the right thing to do. Stop your occupation!; 6/3/10, 11:32 AM
rhhardin said...: It's from a-mnesty, without memory.; 6/3/10, 11:32 AM
KCFleming said...: American anti-Israeli Jews are like the Jewish Nazi collaborators.

I won't entertain the psychology behind it, but simply say they can go straight to hell.; 6/3/10, 11:33 AM
sean said...: Prof. Althouse is really becoming a right wing enthusiast, isn't she? I like it!; 6/3/10, 11:40 AM
Trooper York said...: "Pogo said....
American anti-Israeli Jews are like the Jewish Nazi collaborators."

True dat. They are also the same guys who always take the terrorist side against America. You know the Greenwalds and Ezra Kleins and their ilk.; 6/3/10, 11:46 AM
Anonymous said...: Julius never got the word that you are killed just as dead by a lead pipe or a knife

Shhh! You weren't supposed to click through and see the knives!; 6/3/10, 11:51 AM
Cedarford said...: Hoosier Daddy said...
I mean I really, truly have to wonder at the mentality of those who decry a blockade as 'immoral' which is designed to prevent weapons from reaching a group of people who openly call for genocide of another group.

I'm afraid Hoosier is ignorant of the true nature of the blockade. It is not designed to block weapons, but to punish a million and a half people. Any belief that the blockade is simply a security matter of "stopping weapons" makes Hoosier another victim of Zionist deception.

In 2005, Israel and Egypt agreed that they would control the Borders of Gaza and prevent weapons smuggling as conditions for ending direct Israeli occupation of Gaza. That included inspecting ships for weapons and materials that could be used to construct bombs.
The election of Hamas in 2007, an organization Egypt also hates, led to tighter controls. But the Israelis determined to take it one step further and substantially modify the blockade into a collective punishment to "break the back of political support for Hamas". So the blockade became far more than just weapons to an exercise in inflicting deprevation and misery on the civilian masses.

Always under the usual Israeli rubric that anything banned was banned because it would "help the terrorists". Cement and rebar and all lumber was banned because "terrorists could build bunkers from it", and roof waterproofing could use asphalt, so that had to be banned too. Electrical equipment banned because the more electricity was available - the more weapons the terrorists could make. Water purification equipment banned because terrorists drink water, too, and the sicker the population got, the sicker the "evildoers" became. Medicine could fall into terrorist hands if it was permitted in outside UN control.

Food was a critical element in the new blockade - like certain WWII camps and the Gulags theory of control - the Israeli rationale was arrived at that the less food, the less energy people have to fight back.
So Gazans were put on a bare sustainace diet by the blockaders. Meat, spices, fresh vegetable and fruit imports were banned. Canned goods banned on grounds the terrorists could take cans and fabricate missile parts from the sheet metal and tin solder.

As for why the Gazans elected Hamas, it was an early tea party thing. The rampant corruption and collaboration of Fatah (PLA) with the Israeli Occupier led to their mass repudiation in democratic elections, and Hamas as the odious, but honest force in Gaza with integrity - getting power. People tired of business as usual listened to Hamas saying they would govern better than the PLA, ending the graft and decay. That did not take much persuasion..

(And the world is rife with governments headed by people with terrorist roots, particularly after a struggle for independence. Both the Left and Right in America have favorite ex-terrorists and warlords they claim were "great leaders".); 6/3/10, 11:57 AM
lemondog said...: While they were doing this, they also uncovered many battlefield communications between Ben-Gurion and field commanders that indicated, in euphemistic, coded language, that ethnic cleansing was policy, and was a strategic objective of the Zionists and had been planned well before Partition to "help reclaim all the soil to the legitimate heirs of it."

Oh dear! You mean like the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who lead riots back in the 1920's to rid the land of Jews and his pal Hitler?; 6/3/10, 11:58 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Any belief that the blockade is simply a security matter of "stopping weapons" makes Hoosier another victim of Zionist deception.

Any the belief of collective punishment by the Israelis makes Cedar another willing believer in Hamas propaganda.

That's easy peasy!

Is there an embargo on the West Bank?; 6/3/10, 12:05 PM
Cedarford said...: Galbraith - "The left in America has some stick up their asses about Israel. Logic and facts don't sway them."

In this matter, the right wing "Israel uber alles" sorts are more deluded than the left. Decades of uncritical acceptance of Zionist propaganda have made Americans far less informed of actual ME facts.

Even normally good thinkers like Hoosier come out and say the blockade is only about stopping weapons...and of course SURELY the rest of the stuff is let pass!
Um, no, it isn't. Only basic sustainance food rations, clothing, and medicine under a UN agency control are routinely let in. The rest is turned back, seized for Jewish use, or destroyed by the Israelis as contraband.
Not even seeds for growing food are now let in, and the blockade also extends to Gazans being allowed to go out and fish.

World leaders, including Clinton, have called the blockade immoral and unsustainable.

It is also turning into a great way of drying up any support the US was trying to get for sanctions on Iran while the US is fighting for no sanctions, boycotts, trade embargos on Israel over Israeli nukes, ongoing Settler land grabs, and the depredation of the the Israeli-Egypt blockade.; 6/3/10, 12:10 PM
bagoh20 said...: The history is so full of lies that it is useless. Everybody believes what they want. Sure there is a truth, but nobody is gonna change there mind just because you show it to them.

What's important is that peace is up to the Palestinians. If they want it, they can have it. But we all know they don't chant in the streets: "give peace a chance". That's the problem and it's THE problem that prevents peace. There can be no negotiation with people who want you dead more than they want peace. Who teach their children that hate from infancy. Who daily strap guns and bombs on their small children as some kind of honor. Where is the Israeli equivalent? The history is irrelevant in the face of that chasm. Until the world demands that Palestinians act civilized, there is no peace possible.; 6/3/10, 12:13 PM
Night2night said...: I think Israel is the good guys and I think they might have been played. That being said this is another entry on a theme that I might call "Depends on who's looking". People died on the "Peace and aid flotilla". Were they really peace and aid? I doubt it, but the Israeli folks knew this and could have done a better job deflecting it without the present PR damage or the casualties. Meanwhile, allies are still allies, and enemies are still enemies, but some people inbetween may see something else.; 6/3/10, 12:21 PM
Steve M. Galbraith said...: Decades of uncritical acceptance of Zionist propaganda have made Americans far less informed of actual ME

If you think the American news media simply regurgitates "Zionist propaganda" then there's nothing I can say to persuade you. And if you think the right isn't exposed to critical views of Israel in academia and elsewhere, I'll again remain quiet.

That there are those on the right who uncritically defend Israel is true.

Just as there are those who uncritically defend the enemies of Israel.

But my point remains: the left, both here and internationally, which is so keen to protest oppression of gays and minorities and women seems completely unbothered by the fact that they're defending groups who care not a bit about women or gays or minorities.

Yep, a big stick.

And one more time: Arabs and Muslims in Israel have more rights and freedoms than they do anywhere else in the Middle East.; 6/3/10, 12:22 PM
Anonymous said...: The Left and the Islamists..the Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Pact of the new century, BFF.; 6/3/10, 12:25 PM
David said...: And look here! Israel shot an American citizen five times! He's dead, dead, dead... because that's what happens when you bring an army with guns to a stick fight!

Well, someone shot him. We don't know yet who shot who. Any possibility the people on the ship had guns?; 6/3/10, 12:29 PM
AC245 said...: Dead Julius, I'll make you a deal:

Me and 20 of my friends get to be armed with the same types of non-offensive, ineffective "weapons" that the "peace activists" had.

We get to beat your ass with them for 10 minutes.

Afterward, if you're still alive, you can use my laptop to log on to Althouse and lecture everyone about how safe and ineffective slingshots, pipes, saws, crowbars, bats, and chains are when used as weapons.; 6/3/10, 12:30 PM
garage mahal said...: Well, someone shot him. We don't know yet who shot who

The people with guns!; 6/3/10, 12:30 PM
David said...: One of the reasons I rejected conservatism growing up in the 1950's and 60's was the anti semitism of numerous right wingers, especially of the older variety.

That's now reversed--and it isn't the older generation on the left that's leading the charge.

There. I said it. "The radical left in the United States has become anti semitic."; 6/3/10, 12:35 PM
David said...: Once again Garage brings clarity to the discussion. Thanks, Garage.; 6/3/10, 12:36 PM
Steve M. Galbraith said...: Certainly more than Arabs in Gaza. Your point?

Since Gaza is run by Hamas and not Israel, I have no idea as to what your point is.

My points: (1) For a nation that is accused repeatedly of committing genocide and oppression against Arabs and Muslims (see the comments by your lefty friends here), Israel is sure enacting some strange policies to attain those goals.

Point (2): Why the marches and protests against Israel and the near silence about the oppression of gays and minorities in the rest of the Middle East?

It's understandable why people think anti-semitism is behind much of this criticism of Israel. The double standards are just astounding.

If Israel layed down all of its guns and weapons, it would be destroyed within 24 hours.

If the Arab nations and groups surrounding Israel layed down all of their weapons, nothing would happen.; 6/3/10, 12:37 PM
Kirby Olson said...: That situation is like the Gulf Spill only its blood spilled.

If BP can resolve it, they should be absolved of their other mess.; 6/3/10, 12:41 PM
lemondog said...: World leaders, including Clinton, have called the blockade immoral and unsustainable.

Immoral, huh. Was it this Clinton or some other Clinton?

In other words, over the past eighteen months the United States and United Kingdom have rained down some 400 tons of bombs and missiles on Iraq. Blair has been dropping deadly explosives on the country at a rate twenty times greater than Major. What explains this escalation? Its immediate origins are no mystery. On 16 December 1998 Clinton, on the eve of a vote indicting him for perjury and obstruction of justice in the House of Representatives, unleashed a round-the-clock aerial assault on Iraq, ostensibly to punish the regime in Baghdad for failure to cooperate with UN inspections, in fact to help deflect impeachment.; 6/3/10, 12:46 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Liberal dogma:

USA pre-Obama = bad
Israel = bad
UN = good
Iran = shows promise
N. Korea = Bush's fault
Islamic radical = say what?; 6/3/10, 12:51 PM
jayne_cobb said...: "If the Arab nations and groups surrounding Israel layed down all of their weapons, nothing would happen."

SMG,

I must disagree with you on this, as they would almost certainly be destroyed within a day or two.

Not by the Israelis mind you, but by their peace and freedom loving neighbors.; 6/3/10, 12:51 PM
Mian said...: C4, Your anti-Zionism is well known and long exhibited. But tell me, were you an antisemite first and an anti-Zionist second, or was it the other way around?
Or do you come from a position (like many in the Anti-Israel community) that your anti-isms are interchangeable so you can't even remember which one came first?
Did a Jewish person poop in your soda when you were in wood shop? Is that why you hate the Jews so passionately??; 6/3/10, 1:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Let's speak plainly. Past supposed transgressions by either side are irrelevant. What is the current state of play? Israel will not ease the blockade of Gaza; whatever its secondary motivations might be, its primary motivation is security. Israel will not negotiate with Hamas. Israel will not cede East Jerusalem. Israel will not negotiate with Hezbollah. Israel will not tolerate a nuclear Iran.

Iran knows that Obama is weak. Iran knows that Europe has no claws and that Europe is a slave to the Straits of Hormuz. Iran knows that the U.S., under current leadership, will not strike them militarily, but they might tolerate an Israeli strike; hence the Iranians are racing to go nuclear while doing everything possible to weaken Israel.

When Israel has no more options and no more time, probably sometime in the next six to twelve months, they will strike Iran unilaterally.

Turkey is slowly moving toward Tehran because they perceive weakness in the west. It's not too late to move them back, but not with current leadership. Saudi would play ball with a strong west, and so would Turkey and Egypt.

Perhaps, these discussions are underway, and perhaps the Gaza Kabuke is just a sideshow to give Turkey cover in case the Israeli strike fails.

We'll know soon enough, and God help us all.; 6/3/10, 1:01 PM
themightypuck said...: I'm pretty much pro-Israel in the sense that they are between a rock and a hard place and nothing they do even approaches the kind of human rights violations the other actors in the region routinely engage in. That said, the interview just sounds like lawyerly argumentation.; 6/3/10, 1:14 PM
Cedarford said...: bagoh20 said...
The history is so full of lies that it is useless. Everybody believes what they want. Sure there is a truth, but nobody is gonna change there mind just because you show it to them.

Some wisdom there. There is a substantial amount of irrationality in both the Israelis and palestinians and the backers of each.
When blatant lies of the Palis or Zionists are pointed out, the supporters response is "so what" then they resume their rah-rah cheerleading. Both sides are locked into a belief system that their guys are the good guys, and any criticism is met by accusations of Islamophobia or anti-semitism.

Still, in this, most people of the world are bystanders, with no religious bone in the fight. This includes many Americans who should know better, but find it easy to swallow arguments such as the more Muslims admitted to America, the more diverse we will be, and the better we will be. Or that simply find it easy to swallow deceitful Zionist propaganda part and parcel.

As they do on other issues where they throw the dogma of belief into the argument:
(1)The Earth is melting, Gore will save us, and green jobs are everywhere once we stop looking for and using evil carbon fuels.
(2)Free trade automatically creates great high tech jobs, and where high profits are created from destruction of US industries sent elsewhere, all that money eventually trickles down to residents of Buffalo and Cleveland and New Haven.
(3)Palin/Obama/Ron Paul/Noble Algore. Good, pure! Any criticism is "hateful", true or not..that is not important compared to worshipping their cult of personality.

BUt I do think that American objectivity has been compromised by long decades of Jews in the media pushing the optimum Israeli propaganda and the lies the Zionists have managed to implant in Evangelical Christian groups. In the same way that Muslim masses have been poisoned by decades of Islamist propaganda of the plight of noble Palestinians as defining how good or bad a Muslim they are by how they react to the Palestine issue and how much they support the Palis.

Maybe both America and the Arab Muslim countries need to step back and see how distant nations with no stake in it, or Jews or Arab Muslims manipulating national opinion - see the situation.
How does Japan see it? Uruguay? Australia? India?

Maybe Americans and the Arabs could learn by listening to more objective party's take on the ME situation.; 6/3/10, 1:19 PM
KCFleming said...: I am long past reading anything about Israel in the press. The hatred directed their way is no different than the anti-American slant in the US and world press, and arises from the same poisoned well.

I figure that given a worldwide economic recession, riots in Greece, rattling of nuclear sabers by Iran and NoKo, increasing Middle Eastern animus towards the West, and Central American state entropy, this is not going to end at some big conference table by signing on the dotted line.

Except in surrender, after some bloodshed.; 6/3/10, 1:25 PM
KCFleming said...: Who gives a damn what Japan, Uruguay, or Australia says about Gaza?; 6/3/10, 1:27 PM
KCFleming said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/3/10, 1:27 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Certainly more than Arabs in Gaza. Your point?

Arabs living under the rule of Hamas have it pretty crappy. Should be obvious.; 6/3/10, 1:40 PM
Hagar said...: There will be peace in Palestine when the combination of non-militant Jews and "Arab" Israeli citizens clearly are about to become a majority of the voting public.
Until then, outside meddling on either side will just extend and exacerbate the violence, hatred, and general misery.; 6/3/10, 1:44 PM
traditionalguy said...: For what it is worth, the British forces co-operated with the Arab forces supplying them with arms and ammunitions in 1947. The Jewish State was done by Truman who snook it past Marshall and got a UN Security Counsel vote declaring it when the Russians had walked out to protest. The method of attacking by the Arab Armies was to send word that if you were still in a neighborhood the next day, then you would be taken away and killed. Flight by night leaving everything behind was the only way to survive. This information comes from my discussions with a non-Jewish man who lived there in Jerusalem at the time. The miracle was that the Jews beat the British advisors as well as the Arab armies using the British equiptment.Also, the custom of conqurors was followed which was for the Arab soldiers to gang rape all captured Jewish women and girls before killing them.; 6/3/10, 1:49 PM
Fred4Pres said...: This is to all of you who want to defend Hamas on this issue.

Israel does have the right to conduct a blockade of Gaza to prevent weapons and missiles from coming in that will be used on Israel. That is called self defense. A certain Democrat did this once too, albeit with higher stakes.

The way you enforce a naval blockade is to 1) repell ships from it, 2) board and search ships and let them through if they meet criteria, or 3) sink or disable them if they try to run the blockade.

Now you Hamas lovers can go back to picking lint out of your navels and conduct your own blockade of keeping any of your genital lice from finding a home there.; 6/3/10, 2:02 PM
The Scythian said...: They just hit the IDF soldiers with metal bars, wooden clubs, stun grenades, and firebombs, and stabbed them with knives. What's the big deal? They're just Jews.

I mean, haven't you been to college? Don't you understand anything about colonialism or knapsacks full of privileges? It's OK to bash Jews, in both the literal and figurative senses of the word.

In fact, it's not only OK to bash them, it's our duty to do so.

Yesterday, Garage complained that I played the Hitler card without realizing that I played the Goebbels card, in an attempt to illustrate how Jew hatred actually works.

No self-respecting Jew hater wants to be a sub-literate skinhead hurling antisemitic epithets. Jew haters want to appear progressive, forward thinking, and essentially humanistic.

They want to tell us that it is our duty to oppose the Jews. They murder children and peaceful activists routinely, and the truth never gets out because they control the media, the entertainment industry, and even Congress!

They're speaking truth to power, don't you get that?

Just like Goebbels, who found Hitler's overt Jew hatred distasteful, but had no problem with the Nazi program because he was taking down the capitalists who were exploiting the good and pure people of Germany.; 6/3/10, 2:07 PM
A.W. said...: Cedarford

The jews had been regularly massacred for decades prior to the creation of isreal. During WWII, the Grand Mufti of Palestine asked hitler to open a death camp in Jerusalem. At some point, a people have a right to do what they need to defend themselves, period. There is a reason why the jews had to rebel.

> 2. The "5 Arab armies" is a hoary Zionist lie.

Actually what you said about it is a lie, even down to the claim that the poor whiddle arab nations barely had an military.

> Unfortunately for the Zionist Big Lie

Were they lying about the holocaust, too? I mean if all the jews get together and lie about one thing…

Seriously, do you expect anyone but an anti-Semite to believe in your “massive groups of lying jews” theory?

> Food was a critical element in the new blockade

Bullsh--, humanitarian supplies get through.

As for the rest, assuming you are not lying—or repeating other peoples’ lies—yeah, I guess is sucks when you elect a government that refuses to make peace. Gee, its almost like as if the Palestinians should vote for someone else.

> As for why the Gazans elected Hamas, it was an early tea party thing.

Right, and they couldn’t find someone as an alternative to hamass who didn’t go in for all the genocide.

But you are right. See they voted out a corrupt organization that was dedicated to the destruction of isreal, for an organization that had not proven to be corrupt, but also dedicated to the destruction of isreal.

> It is also turning into a great way of drying up any support the US was trying to get for sanctions

Right, version 5.2 of the “if only we just let them genocide the jews, everything would be better” theory.

Lemon

> A campaign to use a young American as a martyr to influence the media and further sway US opinion?

Its Rachel Corrie all over again.

Garage

> The people with guns!

Which includes some of the terrorist sympathizers.; 6/3/10, 2:09 PM
The Scythian said...: Fred4Pres,

You can't reason somebody out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place.

What you have to do is take out your screwdriver, pop the maintenance panel, and show everybody else how the machine works.; 6/3/10, 2:12 PM
AC245 said...: Hamas blocking entry of flotilla aid into Gaza:
"Hamas will not allow goods from an aid flotilla raided by Israel to enter the blockaded Gaza Strip, a spokesman for the Islamist organization said Thursday.

Ahmed al-Kurd, Social Welfare Minister in the Hamas government which rules Gaza, said Hamas would block the aid cargo until Israel met all of the group's conditions. "

For Hamas, taking actual steps to solve the "humanitarian crisis" appears to be much less important than milking the anti-Israel PR machine.; 6/3/10, 2:30 PM
kent said...: The rest is turned back, seized for Jewish use, or destroyed by the Israelis as contraband.

Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Palestinian sources confirmed that trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid.

That fearful WHOOOOOSHing you all heard, just now, was the sound of one of Cedarford's sillier faux talking points combusting, spontaneously.

Whoopsie. ;); 6/3/10, 2:32 PM
kent said...: Drat! AC245 beat me to it by two minutes! ;); 6/3/10, 2:33 PM
paul a'barge said...: GMay is right.

Gaza shares a border with both Egypt and Israel.

Where's all the outrage about Egypt?

And why didn't the flotilla proceed to Egypt?; 6/3/10, 2:39 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: And why didn't the flotilla proceed to Egypt?

Because that would not have caused a crisis and as you know, that's simply not something to be wasted.; 6/3/10, 2:42 PM
Anonymous said...: It's always a wonder how some people can argue it's perfectly legal for Israel to enforce a blockade but an outrageous insult that the Freedom flotilla would try to break it.

I also still don't understand all the ships, planes, helicopters, submarines and Zodiacs. Why didn't the IDF didn't just allow the ships to dock. Then the local harbor master could walk up the gangplank and have a cup of tea with the captain to talk about the need to check for contraband. In the meantime, the IDF communications staff, instead of seizing videos, could have made themselves useful setting up a welcome tent for the passengers on the sand with donuts and coffee. That would have impressed the world a lot more than sending hotshot commandos rappelling down ropes in the middle of the night--unless of course your real aim wasn't to inspect the ship but rather to strike such fear and awe into the passengers that no one else would dare try it again. Also there would have been a lot less civilian blood to hose off afterward.; 6/3/10, 2:45 PM
Anonymous said...: "Having a Jewish heritage, I'm generally pro-Israel. I used to have an Israeli flag hanging in my dorm room in college.[...]

"...but now I am much too sophisticated to loyally side with my people. Rather, I live my life(having been taught well in my lefty academy classes) pretending that there is a solid middle ground between all sides in a dispute, and on which I can confidently posture to appear thoughtful, considered, reasonable and rational - indeed, an enlightened man of the modern world."

I can spot an American bigot or racist from 100 miles away just by looking at his "group", but I can't see the evil, murderous fanatic in front of my very nose.; 6/3/10, 2:46 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: It's always a wonder how some people can argue it's perfectly legal for Israel to enforce a blockade but an outrageous insult that the Freedom flotilla would try to break it.

I don't think it was an insult as much as an act of stupidty.

On the other hand, I think Freedom Flotila for a bunch of Hamas sympathizers is an outrageous insult to people who actually believe in freedom.

I also still don't understand all the ships, planes, helicopters, submarines and Zodiacs. Why didn't the IDF didn't just allow the ships to dock.

They would have at an Israeli port where the cargo would be inspected. But as was planned, that would not have created the crisis the Hamas sympathizers wanted.; 6/3/10, 2:55 PM
The Scythian said...: "I also still don't understand all the ships, planes, helicopters, submarines and Zodiacs. Why didn't the IDF didn't just allow the ships to dock."

The Israelis tried that, you disingenuous Jew hating fuck. The flotilla rejected this option.; 6/3/10, 2:55 PM
kent said...: In the meantime, the IDF communications staff, instead of seizing videos, could have made themselves useful setting up a welcome tent for the passengers on the sand with donuts and coffee.

Wouldn't it be infinitely more intellectually honest simply to baldly state "they [must] pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," instead?; 6/3/10, 2:55 PM
Automatic_Wing said...: The "5 Arab armies" is a hoary Zionist lie.

Oh dear, won't Sir John Bagot Glubb be disappointed to find out that his beloved Arab Legion was nothing but a filthy Zionist lie.

With a total strength of just over 6,000, the Arab Legion's military contingent consisted of 4,500 men in 4 single battalion-sized regiments, each with their own armored car squadrons, and seven independent companies plus support troops. The regiments were organized into two brigades. 1st Brigade contained 1st and 3rd Regiments while 3rd brigade contained 2nd and 4th Regiments. There were also two artillery batteries with four 25-pounders each.

Nothing to see here, just a rag-tag group of volunteers.; 6/3/10, 2:56 PM
miller said...: "It's always a wonder how some people can argue it's perfectly legal for Israel to enforce a blockade but an outrageous insult that the Freedom flotilla would try to break it."

I know you're just baiting here, but really - the stuff in the flotilla was rejected by Hamas. So why not just truck it in by the usual route?

You can admit it that you just hate Jews. Garage has already done so, and is happy to join C4 in Jew-hatred.

Just be honest - you want Israel to be subject to super-double-secret-judgment, but you could not care less about any terrorism done by Arabs. (I'm pretty sure you don't get worked up about the rape and murder in Darfur, because it's just blacks getting killed.)

I so liked what you and garage and others said when I heard it in the original German.; 6/3/10, 2:57 PM
The Scythian said...: Hush now, Paul A'Barge! Don't you dare point out that Israel's critics single out the predominantly Jewish nation involved in the blockade for vocal criticism while ignoring Egypt's role.

If you do that, the critics hatred of the Jews will be on full display. And we can't have that, because then they'll start whining about how any criticism of Israel is antisemitic (while ignoring the fact that their own double standard is what identifies them as Jew haters).; 6/3/10, 3:00 PM
HKatz said...: Oh dear, won't Sir John Bagot Glubb be disappointed to find out that his beloved Arab Legion was nothing but a filthy Zionist lie.

And the Arab Legion from Jordan was just one of the forces fighting

(also considered one of the best trained of the forces at the time); 6/3/10, 3:04 PM
lemondog said...: The jews had been regularly massacred for decades prior to the creation of isreal.

Decades?

Timeline; 6/3/10, 3:05 PM
garage mahal said...: You can admit it that you just hate Jews. Garage has already done so, and is happy to join C4 in Jew-hatred.

Nah, I did admit I hate retards like you though. Deep down you think little schoolyard taunts like calling someone a Jew hater hurts deep down, because you don't have the emotional maturity yourself to sustain the same taunt. It's why the right wing thinks name calling and talking tough somehow works on people around the world, and also why the right wing shits their pants when some tin pot dictator across the world with barely an army taunts them. Because it works on them.; 6/3/10, 3:09 PM
kent said...: Nah, I did admit I *snip*

Oooooh! Kitty claws!!!; 6/3/10, 3:14 PM
Cedarford said...: Kent - That fearful WHOOOOOSHing you all heard, just now, was the sound of one of Cedarford's sillier faux talking points combusting, spontaneously.
Whoopsie. ;)

Nope, the whooshing noise was Israel's government now in deep doo-doo over this like the Dubai assassination...trying to get off the hook by making a "generous one-time humanitarian boon" exception to the blockade - without changing the blockade policy.

Then once the media heat was off them, Israel could return to business as usual of throttling the Gaza Palestinians and the destruction of their society until they elect people Israel endorses.

Hamas, Gazans, aren't going to let the ham-handed Zionists off the hook. They want a permanent end to the blockade being used to collectively punish the Palestinians for who they democratically elected.

===============
Old Dad - When Israel has no more options and no more time, probably sometime in the next six to twelve months, they will strike Iran unilaterally.

1. Israel lacks the ability to do a sneak attack on Iran using conventional arms that would be effective in stopping a nuclear program.
2. Hope that America "would have no choice" but to become fully complicit and also bomb Iran on behalf of their Special Friend once Israel launched a sneak attack was a neocon fantasy. Only with America throwing nearly the full might of it's AF and naval assets at Iran would a conventional attack prevail.
But such an attack would trigger a global Depression, a wider ME war on unprovoked aggression by the Zionists and their puppets, America. With America receiving full global blame and perhaps another oil embargo as it's due and proper reward to help really cripple the USA.

3. Israel nukes Iran! Several million dead Iranians in an unprovoked nuclear attack would guarantee the world saw Israel as a dangerous mad dog needing to be put down. Nukes could come down on the Zionists from Pakistan, China, even Russia or France - and no one would stop it.; 6/3/10, 3:19 PM
The Scythian said...: Shorter Garage:

Hey guys, in order to draw attention away from my use of an objectively antisemitic double standard to defend savages who seek to murder the Jews, immagonna derail the thread now, 'kay? Thanks!; 6/3/10, 3:24 PM
AllenS said...: Pakistan, China, Russia, France ain't nukin.' anyone.

This WV is tough to decipher.; 6/3/10, 3:27 PM
The Scythian said...: Cedarford wrote:

"Nukes could come down on the Zionists from Pakistan, China, even Russia or France - and no one would stop it."

In this thread, Cedarford makes up absurd scenarios to jerk off over the thought of Europeans immolating the Jews... again.; 6/3/10, 3:28 PM
kent said...: Hamas, Gazans, aren't going to let the ham-handed Zionists off the hook.

So, in other words, then... either:

1.) ... the blockaded supporters of Team Hamas aren't really suffering any sort of deprivation, food- or medicine-wise, as they can readily do without oft-bruited "emergency" shipments of same, simply in order to stage mulish li'l media-friendly tantrums, en masse; OR --

2.) ... said supplies genuinely ARE legitimately scarce and vitally necessary; but Hamas (along with their more enthusiastic cheerleaders, such as yourself) are perfectly willing to... y'know... sacrifice a few dozen (or hundred) (or more) of their more heart-wrenchingly photogenic female, minor or geriatric "pawns," in service of a planned propaganda victory. Gotcha.

Seriously, do you even pause to think before tapping out piss-ignorant codswallop such as the example provided, above... or are you merely working on autopilot, at this point?; 6/3/10, 3:30 PM
HKatz said...: I follow up kent's comment with this:

Here, courtesy of the Palestinian Ma’an news agency, is a report on Gaza’s new Olympic-sized swimming pool . (Most Israeli towns don’t have Olympic-size swimming pools. One wonders how an area that claims to be starved of water and building materials and depends on humanitarian aid builds an Olympic size swimming pool and creates a luxury lifestyle for some while others are forced to live in abject poverty as political pawn refugees?)

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/05/25/fancy-restaurants-and-olympic-size-pools-what-the-media-won%E2%80%99t-report-about-gaza/; 6/3/10, 3:46 PM
miller said...: Yourish and (I think) Totten both have pictures showing the deprivations of the Gazans with their fully stocked markets. It's amazing how they can't seem to stop hating Jews long enough to build a nation and raise their kids in peace.

And of course any nonsense on how the despicable Jews are inflicting this blockade is simply rubbish given that the Egyptians are also blockading the Gazans. I don't see any crocodile tears for the suffering the Egyptians are causing.

Leads me to believe it's just Jew-hatred.; 6/3/10, 3:47 PM
1775OGG said...: Bagoh20: What the international community and AI really meant is that "they" have to dig their own graves first and then the "occupation" may stop!

Cheers!; 6/3/10, 4:06 PM
Cedarford said...: HKatz - "Oh dear, won't Sir John Bagot Glubb be disappointed to find out that his beloved Arab Legion was nothing but a filthy Zionist lie."

Actually, another great Zionist lie was that the plucky little Israelis took on and defeated the Arab Legion.
In truth, the Jewish Agency had met with King Abdullah and cooked up a deal. In return for money and the Jews agreeing to allow Jordan to annex the West Bank, Adbullah said that the Legion would not attack Jewish areas in the soon-to be announced Partition.
Abdullah kept his promise not to attack the Jewish state, and the Arab Legion was limited to defending Arab areas of Jerusalem and those parts of the designated Arab state that Jewish forces invaded.
The Legion did go into action against the Zionists when the Zionists broke the agreement to keep Jerusalem an International City. They defeated the Zionists in a 10-day battle, retook the Arab Quarter from the invaders, and also tossed the Jews out of their Old Quarter as punishment for lying.
The Legion also held an important strategic position on the Coast to Jerusalem road against a far superior Zionist force.
In other battles retake land seized from Arabs awarded it under the Parition Plan, after the temporary truce, the Legion was less successful. The Zionists had smartly dug in and received a trove of top of the line Czech weapons from Skoda arms work due to the influence of Soviet Jews during the June-July truce.

However, the Legion also routed new Zionist attacks for new land conquest on other Arab areas on the West Bank that the Zionists later told King Abdullah were "misunderstandings".; 6/3/10, 4:08 PM
garage mahal said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/3/10, 4:09 PM
kent said...: Yourish and (I think) Totten both have pictures showing the deprivations of the Gazans with their fully stocked markets.

From yesterday's Legal Insurrection:

"A good example is a story I linked to yesterday, in which a Danish journalist traveled to Gaza earlier this week to check out the food and other shortages, and found just the opposite. The journalist interviewed a Palestinian woman who insisted that there were food shortages, as she stood among stalls in the market filled high with food."

Absolutely incredible, ain't it...? ;); 6/3/10, 4:10 PM
A.W. said...: Wow, Cedarford, i had no idea you were such a paranoid "Joooos control the world" bigot. Good to know.; 6/3/10, 4:10 PM
Cedarford said...: Hamas, Gazans, aren't going to let the ham-handed Zionists off the hook,

Kent then blusters that blockade deprivations MUST be lies, otherwise, how could Hamas refuse this one-time boon to make an exception to the blockade by the generous, compassionate Israelis??

Easily. The Zionists look like complete tools and are reaching at anything to turn the PR situation around.
And Hamas and the Gazan Palestinians won't give them a face-saving way out of the fiasco. They want the Egyptian Border open, travel again allowed to Gazans, fishermen allowed to fish again, and end to the naval blockade of any item the people need that is not a weapon or potential weapon.

Next up, an Irish-flagged ship is to arrive around Friday off the Gaza Coast full of prohibited items like lumber, cheese & milk products, and medical supplies.; 6/3/10, 4:17 PM
The Scythian said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/3/10, 4:17 PM
garage mahal said...: We stand with Egypt!

/wingers; 6/3/10, 4:20 PM
The Scythian said...: I'm still trying to draw attention away from the objectively antisemitic double standard I employ to defend bloodthirsty terrorists who seek to murder the Jews!

/Garage Mahal; 6/3/10, 4:26 PM
A.W. said...: Btw, no Cedarford, the people of gaza apparently want genocide. which is why they elected people who preach for genocide. and you are the one who looks like a tool--their tool.; 6/3/10, 4:27 PM
garage mahal said...: You stand with Egypt first Youngblood. I'll stand with America first.; 6/3/10, 4:29 PM
Revenant said...: Wow, Cedarford, i had no idea you were such a paranoid "Joooos control the world" bigot. Good to know.

You didn't know that? Dude, where have you been? He's famous for it! In fact, when they're not busy praising him for his condemnations of Israel, lefties like to cite him as an example of the Althouse blog's notoriously right-wing and bigoted commenters. :); 6/3/10, 4:29 PM
Revenant said...: You stand with Egypt first Youngblood. I'll stand with America first.

Both the American government and the majority of American citizens consider Israel to be a democratic ally and Gaza to be a failed state ruled by terrorists.

You can't stand with Gaza and with America. You have to pick one.; 6/3/10, 4:30 PM
AC245 said...: Given your comments on this topic, garage, I doubt anyone is confused about where you really stand.; 6/3/10, 4:32 PM
Steve M. Galbraith said...: I'm lost trying to understand those who think the US should align itself with the likes of Hamas and other radical movements.

Move away from Israel? Okay, I can understand the foreign policy benefits of taking that course. Realpolitik and all that.

But moving towards those who wish to return the Middle East back to the 13th century - literally - makes no sense strategically at all.

Unless one wants to give up on the idea that Arab and Muslim people deserve freedom and human rights.; 6/3/10, 4:34 PM
Anonymous said...: Next up, an Irish-flagged ship is to arrive around Friday off the Gaza Coast full of prohibited items like lumber, cheese & milk products, and medical supplies.

Which, if docked at Ashdod, will likely be promptly inspected and immediately trucked down to Gaza.

But Israel haters' refusal to choose a perfectly acceptable alternative shows that this isn't about aid, this is about confrontation.

And I condemn them for that alone.; 6/3/10, 4:35 PM
garage mahal said...: You can't stand with Gaza and with America. You have to pick one.

I don't have to stand with Gaza or pick any country. I pick this one, which seems completely lost on right wingers like you. Israel best interest aren't always our best interests. I don't even see where they are on ally, we give, and get nothing in return. What kind of ally continually spies on us?; 6/3/10, 4:42 PM
Anonymous said...: What kind of ally continually spies on us?

Well, the French kind for another example. Do you condemn France, Cedar?; 6/3/10, 4:45 PM
kent said...: Kent then blusters

Only three words in, and Epic Fail. No "blustering" involved, Chumley; merely a simple exercise in basic, elemntary logic, which any schoolboy should be able to routinely handle. In any situation where the only two potential solutions to a given problem remain steadfastly and unalterably opposed, your only options are either "A" or "Not-A... the petulant drumming of angry li'l feetsies on the linoleum in tantrum protest notwithstanding.

Hamas and the Gazan Palestinians won't give them a face-saving way out

Again: then Hamas (along with those such as yourself) are either perfectly willing to allow innocent crones and babes to suffer -- and, ultimately, perish -- in monstrous, calculated service of nothing more noble or defensible than simple, naked Jew-hatred... or else the blockaded supplies in question are surplus goods, period, end of sentence, end of paragraph.

Either way: ain't the motivations and voluntary tactics of those dastardly "Zionists" that end up being revealed as unutterably rancid and awful in the eyes of any living creature with an actual, working soul, as a result. The E-Z takeaway optic, in the end, remains:

ISRAEL: "Here. You say your people are starving, and need medicine. Take this, gratis."

HAMAS (pouty): "No. Don' wanna."

Makes you unhappy? Learn a good coping mechanism.; 6/3/10, 4:45 PM
Anonymous said...: sorry, garage, not cedar; 6/3/10, 4:46 PM
The Scythian said...: Garage,

Over the last two days, you've consistently employed an antisemitic double standard to front for a regime that has codified its desire for the extermination of the Jews (not the Israelis, the Jews) into its charter.

Everybody can see exactly where you stand. Taking poorly aimed cheapshots at my patriotism won't change that.

You have demonstrated, in your own words, that you stand with Jew haters against the Jews.

Welcome to Cedarford country, buddy.; 6/3/10, 4:47 PM
The Scythian said...: "I don't even see where they are on ally, we give, and get nothing in return. What kind of ally continually spies on us?"

I was more right than I realized!

Now he's recycling Cedarford's arguments!

Cedarford country indeed.; 6/3/10, 4:51 PM
Revenant said...: "What kind of ally continually spies on us?"

Well, the French kind for another example.

A shorter answer would be "all of them". And we continually spy on all of them. After all, just because someone is your ally today doesn't mean they won't side with your enemies tomorrow. Turkey and France did it to us in '03, we did it to the UK, France and Israel in '56, etc.; 6/3/10, 4:55 PM
Revenant said...: I don't even see where they are on ally, we give, and get nothing in return

We get plausible deniability. They attack our enemies, we scold them for it and then give them money and supplies.

This is more than we've gotten out of, say, France for the last 220 years or so. :); 6/3/10, 5:01 PM
garage mahal said...: You have demonstrated, in your own words, that you stand with Jew haters against the Jews.

You can say until you're blue in the face but it doesn't make it true. I just stated I stand with this country, no other. Give it a try sometime. Then, you can condemn any country's actions and behavior that could potentially harm this country's interests.

What's funny is the whining we always hear from the right wing about the left playing identity politics, yet they simply cannot make an argument without it. "JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS" "JEW HATER".

So fucking dumb.; 6/3/10, 5:01 PM
miller said...: We don't need to say it 'till we're blue in the face.

It's not that hard.

We just point out your double-standard of applying one set of moral norms to Jews ("Off to the chambers, go!") and another to all other nations.

You are simply a Jew-hater. I don't know why you are ashamed of that. It is, after all, your identity.; 6/3/10, 5:13 PM
The Scythian said...: Garage, when you front for the architects of the infamous Sbarro's bombing by making objectively antisemitic arguments, I'm going to point out that it looks like you hate the Jews.

And then when you start recycling Cedarford's positions in an attempt to defend yourself... well... fuck it. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together for warmth on a chilly night can see that you're a disingenuous Jew hater.; 6/3/10, 5:13 PM
Anonymous said...: Cedarford,

Here's the bet. No one who matters wants a nuclear Iran except the disenfranchised radical Islamist fringe--not Russia, not France, not Pakistan--no one. The "international community" is putting Israel in a box and forcing them to do the dirty work of disarming the mad mullahs. Don't pretend to know the capability of the Israelis. This threat is not new to them. They're intelligence is excellent. They're technology is superb. History suggests not to bet against them.

The world will passively allow Israel to defang Iran and then roundly condemn them--sort of like, oh hell, I don't know, the Peace Fraud Flotillagate.; 6/3/10, 5:19 PM
garage mahal said...: We just point out your double-standard of applying one set of moral norms to Jews ("Off to the chambers, go!") and another to all other nations.

This is for the last time. I condemned Israel's ridiculously stupid, unnecessary, and botched raid on the flotilla. Egypt didn't raid the ship, therefore I didn't condemn Egypt. Is that really that hard to follow? Most thinking people in the world can see this, but you.

But, since wingers are so used to defending any ridiculously stupid, unnecessary, and botched military efforts I should have assumed that in the first place and moved on.; 6/3/10, 5:20 PM
Peano said...: "The American Right? For them, Israel can do no wrong. For them, the facts don't matter."

No, for us, the terrorists who posed as "peace activists" can do no right.; 6/3/10, 5:21 PM
miller said...: I wouldn't mince words with "disingenuous." That's putting a nice face on a flat-out blood libel.

Unfortunately for him, he's not able to reach the honesty of C4.

Too bad. Maybe he still wants to be able to look in a mirror.; 6/3/10, 5:22 PM
kent said...: This is for the last time.

If only.; 6/3/10, 5:23 PM
The Scythian said...: Shorter Garage:

It's all about the wingers! Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!; 6/3/10, 5:24 PM
The Scythian said...: Anyway, about that whole spying on Allies thing...

Everybody does it. Everybody gets caught doing it. The US has been caught spying on France, France has been caught spying on the US. Britain has been caught spying on France. Shit, about two weeks ago, President Obama very publicly forced Dennis Blair to step down because he wouldn't spy on France.

Yet Cedarford (and now Garage) want us to believe that those sneaky Jews are the only ones who engage in such nefarious activities.

There's that whole pesky objectively antisemitic double standard thing again.; 6/3/10, 5:32 PM
Alex said...: Youngblood - I think C4 would want proof that France has spied on the US in the last 10 years.; 6/3/10, 5:33 PM
William said...: I don't know if Cedarford's facts are accurate. Perhaps they are. Nonethless you have to overlook a huge mountain of atrocities, crimes and stupidities committed by the Arabs to argue that only such facts are the salient ones.....Still, if it weren't for Cedarford, I would think anti-semitism was some kind of Jewish plot. See Dead Julius above and this Sunday's op-ed pieces written by Israelis in the NYT.; 6/3/10, 6:20 PM
Revenant said...: I think you people accusing Garage of antisemitism are barking up the wrong tree. He doesn't hate Jews; he hates anything conservatives like. It doesn't even matter if liberals like it too -- if conservatives like it, he hates it.

Garage hates Israel because conservatives like it. That's honestly all the thought he puts into the issue. With Cedarford, yes, it's all about the judenhass. With garage, Israel-bashing is just a proxy for conservative-bashing.; 6/3/10, 6:23 PM
Andrea said...: I was going to say that Duscany's comment broke my stupidity-meter but then garage came along and started painting in his own feces so now my stupidity-meter is not only broken, there's nothing left of where it was but a scorch mark on the shelf.; 6/3/10, 6:23 PM
traditionalguy said...: Being anti semitic is a European habit and an old line church social tradition here too. But WWII changed that here. That change is stalled when the haters have some agreed myth that the non-haters just go along with to get along. It takes a strong and bold challenge to stand up to the haters.There is a price to pay for that in friendships and popularity. But having nothing to say lets the haters rule the field. I recall dealing with a man like C-4 in my office that mentionned that he hated the Jews and didn't I agree. The diplomat would have changed the subject, but he was not a client but a seller of land. I remember replying that I did not hate Jews but I did hate people who hate Jews.; 6/3/10, 6:50 PM
Metamorf said...: I realize C4 is just a bigot, but it's worth pointing out that he's a garden-variety tin-foil-hatter as well. The symptoms of the latter are the airy but lengthy concoction of historical "facts" without so much as a link, and the glib dismissal of anything contrary to his fantasies as Zionist (read Jewish) "lies".

No doubt he believes he's been abducted and "probed" by the evil alien "Zionists" as well, but doesn't think we're ready to hear that Truth quite yet....; 6/3/10, 7:21 PM
The Scythian said...: Revenant,

I'm open to the distinct probability that Garage is bashing Conservatives by proxy in his twisted little mind. His constant attempts to deflect criticism by lashing out at the Right give credence to that position.

But so what?

If Garage adopts inherently antisemitic arguments to run interference for a terroristic regime that is unapologetic in its desire to murder Jews, then what's the difference?; 6/3/10, 7:41 PM
chickelit said...: Sorry Dead Julius but that Turk is about as American as my wife is Canadian-accident of birth only.; 6/3/10, 8:26 PM
1775OGG said...: C4 and Garage shouldn't view this link cuz it'll twist their minds(Such as they are!):
http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/06/a-bit-of-humor.php; 6/3/10, 8:39 PM
GMay said...: Cedarford just reminded me of a CODOH guy. Uses most of the more sanitary arguments from over there. Sticks with most of the usual counterfactual anti-zionist screeds, but he's a dead ringer fo a CODOH clown.

I thought those clowns would have faded away by now.; 6/3/10, 9:12 PM
garage mahal said...: C4 and Garage shouldn't view this link cuz it'll twist their minds(Such as they are!):

See that's what you just can't get - I can look at the link, laugh at it and move on. You guys can't. Your worldview is so narrow and confining. I would feel hopelessly boxed in.; 6/3/10, 10:56 PM
Anonymous said...: But, since wingers are so used to defending any ridiculously stupid, unnecessary, and botched military efforts I should have assumed that in the first place and moved on.

I always wonder about why anybody concerns themselves with this theorizing shit. Let me try to simplify this.

The jihadis plan to set off a nuclear device at some point in the future in Manhattan. I spend a lot of time there. There's no doubt in my mind about the intent of the jihadis.

The terrorists live in the Gaza strip. They're the enemy. I have no sympathy for them at all. Kill them any way you can.

Israel is the friend. They might help us.

This stupid shit of caring about the jihadis... what's it all about? I don't care about the enemy. The more of them the Israelis kill the better.

I already watched these SOBs murder 3,000 New Yorkers.

This is what it's all about. The rest is hot air.; 6/3/10, 11:36 PM
Anonymous said...: See that's what you just can't get - I can look at the link, laugh at it and move on. You guys can't. Your worldview is so narrow and confining. I would feel hopelessly boxed in.

Maybe, when the jihadis kill you and stuff you in a coffin, you'll feel even more boxed in.

You've lost the common sense to tell an enemy from a friend. How did you get that stupid? How did you convince yourself that being this stupid is intellectual?

It's amazing.; 6/3/10, 11:38 PM
kent said...: Maybe, when the jihadis kill you and stuff you in a coffin, you'll feel even more boxed in.

"Keep hope alive!" ;); 6/4/10, 12:41 AM
Anonymous said...: I wish American presidents would at least act a little more distressed when foreign countries kill American citizens. Israeli commandos put four bullets in the brain and one in the chest of an American-born teen on Memorial Day and Obama doesn't even raise an eyebrow.

He's not unique. Bush didn't object when Rachel Corrie got run over by a bulldozer. And LBJ suppressed an investigation into the Israeli torpedo attack on the USS Liberty that killed 34 sailors.

I find it hard to believe that American presidents are so cavalier about foreign countries killing U.S. citizens.; 6/4/10, 1:47 AM
kent said...: Rachel Corrie got run over by a bulldozer.

Yes, the poor dear. Ran, gasping, the length and breadth of Israel twice over, relentlessly pursued by some malevolent Jew bastard who plucked the blameless li'l waif out of a crowd while she was heroically doing everything within her power and then some not to prevent the demolition of tunnels routinely utilized by Palestinians to target and butcher Israeli non-combatants.

Oh, wait. No. That's not right, is it...?; 6/4/10, 6:37 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: He's not unique. Bush didn't object when Rachel Corrie got run over by a bulldozer.

What's he supposed to say? Don't stand in front of a moving bulldozer?; 6/4/10, 6:38 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I pick this one, which seems completely lost on right wingers like you. Israel best interest aren't always our best interests. I don't even see where they are on ally, we give, and get nothing in return.

Garage you see Israel as the flashpoint whose problems get transferred to us. That's quite true so let me provide you with an analogy. You have a friend who is gay and there are a lot of anti-gay folks who dont like him and harrass him. Since you're his buddy you get harrassed too and occassionally the two of you get your ass beat from time to time from anti-gay bigots.

But you being you, you ask yourself, what am I getting out of this relationship? Hell I end up picking up the bar tab 3/4 of the time and my responsibility is to myself. So you tell Maurice you're done sayshaying down the street with him and you're moving on.

The thing is Maurice is a 4th degree king fu expert who while harrassed a lot holds his own and while getting a few bumps and bruises tends to kick the crap out his attackers. Once they came into his yard and stole his prized poodles so we went to their yard and kicked their asses only to find out they killed his poodles.

You being the anti-violent type joined in the chorus of the others condemning Maurice for escalating the situation.

That about sums up your world view. Think on that for a bit.; 6/4/10, 8:16 AM
Revenant said...: I wish American presidents would at least act a little more distressed when foreign countries kill American citizens. Israeli commandos put four bullets in the brain and one in the chest of an American-born teen on Memorial Day and Obama doesn't even raise an eyebrow.

Yeah, it IS weird how Obama didn't use Memorial Day to mourn the death of a traitor who perished while aiding an Iranian terrorist group. Its almost like he thought that might not be appreciated by America's veterans. :)

He's not unique. Bush didn't object when Rachel Corrie got run over by a bulldozer.

Yeah, oddly enough Bush wasn't big on mourning the deaths of terrorist supporters either.

And LBJ suppressed an investigation into the Israeli torpedo attack on the USS Liberty that killed 34 sailors.

It was investigated by the Senate, the House, the NSA, the CIA, the Navy, the Joint Chiefs, and quite a few newspapers. Which of these investigations are you claiming Johnson suppressed? :)

I find it hard to believe that American presidents are so cavalier about foreign countries killing U.S. citizens.

If US Presidents took the killing of Americans citizens seriously, we would have wiped Palestine, Syria, and Iran off the map decades ago. Honestly, now, you expect us to feel sorry for Corrie and whats-his-face when they're supporting the people who have murdered hundreds of Americans?; 6/4/10, 12:58 PM
Anonymous said...: "What's he supposed to say? Don't stand in front of a moving bulldozer?"

He could say, "I am the American president and it's my job to protect American citizens, or at the very least raise an objection to the idea that foreign countries can kill them whenever they want."

He could also say, by the way, your explanations for why you couldn't see the American flag on the Liberty are hogwash.

He could finally add, "As long as I'm president the interests of the United States and its citizens will always take precedence of those of any other country, ally or purported ally.; 6/4/10, 1:30 PM
Anonymous said...: "Which of these investigations are you claiming Johnson suppressed?"

The only one that that was in a position to uncover the truth--the Navy investigation.; 6/4/10, 1:34 PM
Anonymous said...: "Honestly, now, you expect us to feel sorry for Corrie and whats-his-face when they're supporting the people who have murdered hundreds of Americans?"

I expect American presidents to take the side of U.S. citizens over the rationalizations of people with dual loyalty issues.; 6/4/10, 1:40 PM
The Scythian said...: Duscany wrote:

"I expect American presidents to take the side of U.S. citizens over the rationalizations of people with dual loyalty issues."

Furkan Dogan was a citizen of both the United States and Turkey. His parents took him back to Turkey when he was 2, and he has lived in Turkey ever since. He will spend the rest of eternity in Turkey, since that's where he's going to be buried as he has no ties to the United States.

He died throwing his lot in with the Turkish "aid" group IHH, which has been linked to Hamas, Al-Qaeda, and the Muslim Brotherhood-linked "Union of Good". According to French intelligence, the Fateh Kamel cell was deeply embedded in this organization. You may not remember this, but the Fateh Kamel terrorist cell was behind the Millennium bombing plot.

So here we have a dual Turkish-American citizen who hardly spent any time in the United States getting killed while acting on behalf of an organization linked to to terrorist organizations, some of which (like Al-Qaeda) have killed large numbers of Americans and some of which (like the Fateh Kamel cell) have attempted to do so.

So you're right. Furkan Dogan did have obvious dual loyalty issues. I don't think that the president should buy the rationalizations of those who use his U.S. citizenship for propaganda purposes.

And you're still a fucking Jew-hating scumbag, by the way.; 6/4/10, 2:39 PM
AC245 said...: He's not unique. Bush didn't object when Rachel Corrie got run over by a bulldozer.

She should have stuck to just teaching Palestinian kids how to burn American flags and hate Jews. She seemed very proficient at that.

Stopping bulldozers from demolishing smuggling tunnels used by terrorists to bring bomb materials into Israel? Not so much.; 6/4/10, 2:49 PM
kent said...: the rationalizations of people with dual loyalty issues.

Interestingly enough, William A. Jacobson over at Legal Insurrection had a particularly devastating post just today, re: the unapologetic anti-Semites who routinely and reflexively slander anyone objecting to (or even simply noting) their naked and manifest Jew-loathing with the shopworn "dual loyalty" canard... such as that utilized by vermin such as (oh, say) Duscany, a mere post or two ahead of this one. A pertinent excerpt from same:

"According to the most recent Gallup poll, support among Americans for Israel over the Palestinians is at a near all time high. 63% of Americans (more than voted for Barack Obama) support Israel, while only 15% support the Palestinians, with 23% choosing 'both/neither/no opinion.'

"Despite this overwhelming support, which must come overwhelmingly from American Christians given the percentages, supporters of Israel regularly are smeared with the term 'Israel-Firster' by a wide spectrum of fringe players, from neo-Nazis to far leftists.

"The term Israel-Firsters is a favorite term of outright anti-Semites like David Duke, who seek to portray American Jews as disloyal. This is just a variation on the age-old anti-semitic theme that Jews cannot be loyal to any country [...] The reversion to ancient stereotypes and blood-libels is sickening, and reflects the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the left-wing of the Democratic Party."

There's a good deal more, and well worth reading in its entirety.

Uncanny, the eerie ease with which Professor Jacobson manages to capture and distill the exquisitely excrescent essence of posters such as Duscany, Cedarford and garage, with such apparent ease and aplomb; a rare and useful gift, that.; 6/4/10, 3:13 PM
Revenant said...: He could say, "I am the American president and it's my job to protect American citizens, or at the very least raise an objection to the idea that foreign countries can kill them whenever they want."

Well of course foreign countries shouldn't be allowed to kill Americans whenever they want. But when Americans assist a terrorist enemy against an allied military force, it is not only acceptable but desirable for our allies to kill them. It saves us the trouble of doing it ourselves, you know?

"Which of these investigations are you claiming Johnson suppressed?"

The only one that that was in a position to uncover the truth--the Navy investigation.

I'll spare myself the pain of asking which conspiracy theory you think supports a claim that Johnson suppressed the Navy investigation. Instead, I'll just ask... "the only one in a position to uncover the truth?" The Navy? The only people in a position to know whether or not the attack on the Liberty was a deliberate act by Israel are (a) the Israeli military and government and (b) people in a position to spy on the Israeli government. That means our diplomats, CIA, and NSA. Not the Navy. :)

The conspiracy theories surrounding the Liberty incident are a constant source of amusement to me. Our primary Middle Eastern military ally at the time was Iran (Israel was supplied by France), and we were neutral in the 1967 war. There's no theory that can explain why we would cover up a deliberate Israeli attack that can also explain why we weren't on their side in the first place.

Its silly, really. But ancient history, in any case.; 6/4/10, 4:17 PM
Anonymous said...: " 63% of Americans (more than voted for Barack Obama) support Israel, while only 15% support the Palestinians, with 23% choosing 'both/neither/no opinion.'"

These kinds of polls never give what to me seems the only sensible option--the hell with either side.; 6/4/10, 4:33 PM
Anonymous said...: Revenant: "Its silly, really. But ancient history, in any case."

I was in the Med on a navy ship shortly after the Israeli attack. The deaths of the men of the Liberty are not ancient history to me. Neither are they to anyone else I served with.; 6/4/10, 4:42 PM
kent said...: These kinds of polls never give what to me seems the only sensible option--the hell with either side.

From the very sentence cut'n'pasted by you, in response:

" 63% of Americans (more than voted for Barack Obama) support Israel, while only 15% support the Palestinians, with 23% choosing 'both/neither/no opinion.'" [emphasis mine]

Seriously, are your postings meant to serve as some peculiarly disassociative sort of online performance art, or what...?; 6/4/10, 4:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Kent

Please show where "the hell with either side" was a poll option.; 6/4/10, 5:02 PM
jr565 said...: Who, but those fully enclothed in Palestinian Pan-Arabist propaganda would constantly use the word 'zionist" or "zionism" to refer to Israel or Israelis. Sorry Cedarford.
I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't bring up the Protocols of Zion in your next diatribe against the evil Zionists as proof of the Jews plans to rule the world; 6/4/10, 5:06 PM
kent said...: Please show where "the hell with either side" was a poll option.

Asked and answered. Obviously.

If this isn't some sort of trollish equivalent of "phone pranking" or the like, and you're genuinely serious: seek help. Seriously.; 6/4/10, 5:09 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: That's one lazy ass dodge from addressing the real issue.

The fact is that "thinkers" like David Bernstein do not consider Palestinians to be human being on an equal par with Israelis.

Look at some of the inoccuous and necessary things that Israel prohibits from entering Gaza. Fresh meat? Seeds and nuts? Donkeys?

Their treatment of the Palestinians is simply inhumane. Their pretension that it's in reaction to Hamas violence is a farce.

But we are bankrolling this rogue nation.; 6/4/10, 5:29 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Darn. Used the wrong URL.

here you go

And here is the Economist editorial on the appalling actions by the Netanyahu government.

THE lethal mishandling of Israel’s attack on a ship carrying humanitarian supplies that was trying to break the blockade of Gaza was bound to provoke outrage—and rightly so. The circumstances of the raid are murky and may well remain that way despite an inquiry (see article). But the impression received yet again by the watching world is that Israel resorts to violence too readily. More worryingly for Israel, the episode is accelerating a slide towards its own isolation. Once admired as a plucky David facing down an array of Arab Goliaths, Israel is now seen as the clumsy bully on the block.

To put it very mildly.; 6/4/10, 5:32 PM
kent said...: Look at some of the inoccuous and necessary things that Israel prohibits from entering Gaza.

Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Palestinian sources confirmed that trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid.

So, in other words, then... either:

1.) ... the blockaded supporters of Team Hamas aren't really suffering any sort of deprivation, food- or medicine-wise, as they can readily do without oft-bruited "emergency" shipments of same, simply in order to stage mulish li'l media-friendly tantrums, en masse; OR --

2.) ... said supplies genuinely ARE legitimately scarce and vitally necessary; but Hamas (along with their more enthusiastic cheerleaders, such as yourself) are perfectly willing to... y'know... sacrifice a few dozen (or hundred) (or more) of their more heart-wrenchingly photogenic female, minor or geriatric "pawns," in service of a planned propaganda victory. Gotcha.

Can't be "necessary things" AND "perfectly okay to withhold from one's own supporters, solely for propaganda's own sweet sake" simultaneously, obviously.

Again: it's precisely this sort of fundamental, Pavlovian dishonesty on the parts of dizzy little asshats such as yourself -- readily apparent to even the most casual observer -- that absolutely stone guarantees the majority in this country will routinely reject the leftover blood libels you so incompetently reheat and attempt to pass off as souffle.

So... keep up the good work!; 6/4/10, 5:45 PM
kent said...: Oh my, oh my. Look at this, will you...?

"The Free Gaza movement operating the ship [the Rachel Corrie] has announced that it will not stop if approached by Israeli ships, even though the Israelis offered to have the supplies transported by land to Gaza, setting up another confrontation at sea."

Withholding (*kaff*kaff*) "necessary food and medicine" from their own ostensibly needy, stricken supporters yet AGAIN, solely in order to vamp a suitably dramatic pose for their eager camp followers in the Associated Press?

Pffftt. Either soulless, or simply baldfaced (and shockingly incompetent) liars. Period.

No wonder they find such anxiously ready co-conspirators in the modern American left.; 6/4/10, 6:11 PM
jr565 said...: Cedarford wrote:
Jordan was split off in 1922. Zionist claims that Jordan is the "real home" and somehow was the real Partition homeland was shown to be a lie back in the early 50s. As diplomats who devised the Partition said the Jews were lying, Jordan was never a consideration for Palestinian homeland. Not part of the Partition at all. Whoare these diplomats saying the jews were lying. How about some names and quotes.
Yes, Jordan or TransJordan was given over to Abdullah in the 20's but didn't become independent until 2years before Israel. And until they did the League of Nations included Transjordan in its mandate. Official govt documents continued tocall Transjordan "Eastern Palestine".
Also, in 1948, just before hostilities against Israel commenced, Abdullah declared:
"Palestine and Transjordan are one, for Palestine is the coastline and Transjordan the hinterlands of the same country".

Further, when hostilities ended, it was Jordan that controlled the west bank until the 6 day war nearly 20 years later. Where were all the calls of occupation?

The league of nations had designated the land called "Palestine" to be for the Jewish natoinal home, east and west from the Mediterannean to Arabia and Iraq, and North and South from Egypt to Lebanon and Syria. That's the land that encompassses both Jordan, the West bank and Israel. And that whole designation was initially setup for the Jews. Then, to appease their Pan Arabic allies the Brits gave them Iraq and "Eastern" Paletine (and, why by the way is there never any mention of the illegitimacy of those countries considering Faisal and Abdullah are neither Iraqi nor Palestinian.).
75% of what was initially described as Palestine (the part east of the Jordan river) became Transjodan. It houses the majority of the land of historic Palestine, not to mention the vast majority of Palestinians.

Jordan has a right of return. All Palestinians are guaranteed citizenship by right UNLESS OF COURSE THEY ARE JEWS.; 6/4/10, 6:25 PM
jr565 said...: Alpha Liberal wrote:
Their treatment of the Palestinians is simply inhumane. Their pretension that it's in reaction to Hamas violence is a farce.

But we are bankrolling this rogue nation.
Hey, Alpha you do know that Egypt also is part of the blockade right? Why did they sign on board and why no negative talk about them and their role in the blockade against the poor, poor Palestinians. They're not Zionist enough to be worthy of your scorn?; 6/4/10, 6:29 PM
jr565 said...: Cedarford further wrote:
Zionist claims that Jordan is the "real home" and somehow was the real Partition homeland was shown to be a lie back in the early 50s. As diplomats who devised the Partition said the Jews were lying, Jordan was never a consideration for Palestinian homeland

You have it vackbwards. Because you're confusing Palstine with Palestinians. ANd in fact until Arafat there was no Palestinian identity. It's a modern construct. Those living in "palestine" during say the downfall of the Ottoman Empire didn't consider themselves Palestinians because there was no such thing. And in fact the Jews were often called Palestinians prior to the Palestians, taking that name. But I digress. Back when England was divvying up the Middle East they defined a region as "Palestine" and that region was defined as "east and West of the Jordan River from the Mediterranean to Arabia and Iraq and North and South from Egypt to Lebanon and Syria" by the League of Nations.
That land area was designated as a Jewish National Home and that the Jews would be invited to return to Palestine (as again, it was initially Jews who had the monicher of Palestinians). Arabs made out pretty well at the same time as they too achieved independent statehoods like say saudi arabia which had 865,000 square miles of territory deemed "Purely Arab".

Anyway, from this region that was marked as Palestine for the purposes of fefining a homeland for the Jews, the Brits, to assuage arab allies of the war carved a huge chunk of it out and gave it to him to rule. So how do you define a Palestinian? If you are to use the markings of historic Palestine as your guide then Jordan is a Palestinian state. And they considered themselves as such as well. Which is why Jordanian stamps at the time defined Jordan as the whole region of Palestine (including Israel) on their stamps, and why Palestinians have a right to return. Because EVERYONE recognized that Palestine as defined by them consisted of an east and a west. Incidentally the Jordanians got the far better deal. They have 75% of what was historic Palestine. For all the talk of zionism I don't hear too many jews demanding all of Jordan to complete their Palestine. Yet, you constantly hear the Palestinians constantly talking about reunification of Palestine, and what that means is returning the one piece of historic Palestine, not controlled by Arabs back to arab hands.
By you saying Jordan was never a consideration for Palestinian land you are only showing your ignorance and getting history ass backwards. There was a historic Palestine and it was carved up into two major chunks. The name east Palestine was changed to Jordan and what remained became Israel. But historically, it's all part of one region (though that region was never a country per se, and thus didn't belong to anyone).
Considering arabs got 865,000 miles of land that would be designated as solely Arab you'd think they wouldn't begrudge Jews from getting a tiny sliver of land. How about Christians? How about Kurds? If theres ANY group being stingy with the land and if there is any group being an agressor it's the arab world.; 6/4/10, 7:02 PM
Anonymous said...: Youngblood: "Furkan Dogan was a citizen of both the United States and Turkey. His parents took him back to Turkey when he was 2, and he has lived in Turkey ever since."

So what are you saying? Since he doesn't live in the US anymore it's okay then if commandos shoot him four times in the brain?

And my earlier suggestion still stands. Israel could have let a ship full of wheelchairs and medicines peacefully dock at Gaza and then sent the local constable up the gangplank to talk to the captain. There was no need to land commandos on the deck of an unarmed ship at night and blast everything in sight (and then seize all the videos of the attack).

It's not just Israel's reputation that is in tatters now. The US looks like her accomplice because our government doesn't have the guts to speak out against acts like these. Thankfully some American commentators are speaking out. Here's a link to a column by Glenn Greenwald:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/index.html; 6/4/10, 7:07 PM
jr565 said...: Further,Cedarford, Yasser Arafat declared that Jordan is Palestine. When he waged war against Abdullah in the 70's during the period know as Black September it was deemed as a civil war and not a war against foreign terorists. Why? Because until Arafat tried to take out Abdullah and wage war against him he operated their freely. Why? Because Jordan was Palestine. Abullah said, of figting back against Arafat during Black September "It was a final crackdown against those of his people (Which people cedarford? Palestinians) whom he accused of trying to establish a "SEPARATE Palestinian state" (why separate? Because he already ruled a Palestinian state) under Palestinian rule instead of his own, "criminials and conspirators who use the commando movement to disguise their treasonable plots, "to destroy the unity of hte Jordanian and Palestinian people". Why treasonable? Because Abdullah considered them one people. Now, Arafat and Palestinians may have a point about why a non Palestinian is ruling a country that is majority Palestinian, but that would mean that those suggesting that the Palestinians need their own state already have one, so that will never happen; 6/4/10, 7:17 PM
miller said...: I like how you continually hold Israel to a different standard than any other nation.

Not even Egypt - which ALSO blockades Gaza - gets your attention.

You just hate Jews.

I don't know why you can't admit it. It's not like you're ashamed of that.; 6/4/10, 7:53 PM
kent said...: You just hate Jews.

I don't know why you can't admit it. It's not like you're ashamed of that.

Lot of that going around just lately, huh...?; 6/4/10, 8:13 PM
GMay said...: That's ok kent, she gave a liberal non-apology so everything's ok now.; 6/4/10, 9:08 PM
jr565 said...: Is Helen Thomas Cedarford in disguise?
Seriously, I'd love to ask Helen Thomas who the Israelis are occupying and who does the west bank belong to? If Helen notes Israel got it after the 6 day war, but prior to that it was controlled by Jordan who annexed it (illegally) after the war in 1948. So should Israel give the West Bank back to the Jordanians?
It would make some sense, as Jordanians are majority Palestinian and had no problem with the West Bank being part of Jordan when it was controlled by them. But then wouldn't Jordan be guilty of occupying land, since they seized it illegally themselves? And since Jordan was occupying the west bank for 20 years, I'm sure we'll find plenty of footage in Helen's younger days of her decrying the illegal occupation of the west bank by Jordan. Right? Or, more likely, does prune face just hate jews, and is simply repeating standard lefty boilerplate logic about Israel.; 6/4/10, 9:09 PM
Revenant said...: I was in the Med on a navy ship shortly after the Israeli attack. The deaths of the men of the Liberty are not ancient history to me. Neither are they to anyone else I served with.

That's sad. You've spent forty-three years filled with hate and bile over an incident that didn't affect you and which both parties involved agree was an accident. So deep is your hate that you assign blood guilt to the entire Israeli nation, even though everyone in the Israeli government who could plausibly have been responsible for the attack is long dead. This hatred has further led you to side with Palestinian terrorists and their supporters, who have by their own admission murdered hundreds of Americans -- far more than the 39 Americans you're trying to blame the Israelis for. It's pathetic.; 6/4/10, 11:44 PM
Revenant said...: Their treatment of the Palestinians is simply inhumane.

The behavior of the Palestinians is simply inhumane. Honestly, how much sympathy am I expected to muster when people who celebrate suicide bombing die? Isn't that win/win? They get to be martyrs and I get to not live in the same world with them.; 6/4/10, 11:47 PM
Revenant said...: So what are you saying? Since he doesn't live in the US anymore it's okay then if commandos shoot him four times in the brain?

Since he was participating in a mission in support of Hamas it is ok if commandos shoot him four times in the brain. Everyone who supports Islamist terror groups should die in screaming agony at the earliest possible opportunity. :); 6/4/10, 11:49 PM
Anonymous said...: Relevant: "This hatred has further led you to side with Palestinian terrorists and their supporters, who have by their own admission murdered hundreds of Americans."

Because I don't automatically side with Israeli terrorists you claim I therefore side with Palestinian terrorists. As I told another poster the only reasonable position in this interminable and intractable conflict (and therefore the one I practice) is "the hell with either side."

Still I feel it's a duty to defend innocent victims such as 21 year old American art student Emily Henochowicz who lost an eye to an IDF teargas canister the other day while protesting Israeli's commando raid on a civilian flotilla. The other even more egregious case is that of Furkin Dogan, a boyish 19 year old high school student, born in America, whom trigger happy commandos shot four times in the skull at close range, a practice known in rogue army units as "confirming the kill."

But that of course is the problem. Israel never should have sent commandos against civilians in the first place. Commandos are taught to kill. That's all they know how to do. And when things go sideways the only other trick in their repertoire is to kill harder.

If Netanyahu had the commoon sense of an ordinary ground squirrel, he would have just allowed the ships to land in Gaza, Then he could have sent the local constable up the gangplank to drink tea with the captain, while explaining Israel's desire to check the wheelchairs and medicines in the cargo hold for contraband.

In the meantime, he could have brought in a catering service to put a tent, with tables and chairs, soft drinks, hummus and cucumber salad. The international press would have eaten it up. It would be a propaganda coup of the first magnitude for Israel--"See, we're not such mad dogs after all."; 6/5/10, 6:35 AM
Anonymous said...: Kent: "Please show where "the hell with either side" was a poll option.

Asked and answered. Obviously.

If this isn't some sort of trollish equivalent of "phone pranking" or the like, and you're genuinely serious: seek help. Seriously."

Well, I have sought help from my dad, often, when he was alive. And one thing he used to tell me is not to fold to people who don't have the cards. So under his standard, I'll give you one more chance. To save what little is left of your intellectual honesty, now is the time for you to post (i,e. quote) that part of the poll which gives people the choice of responding "the hell with either side."

Asked and answered is no response. If you have the quote please post it.; 6/5/10, 6:53 AM
GMay said...: Another average lefty troll waiting until the thread is dead to try and win by attrition. Dude, he did answer your question quite effectively. You're apparently not bright enough to see it. Or apparently not bright enough to understand the purpose of a blockade and why you shouldn't fuck with it if you're some dumbass leftist indoctrinated student, regardless of nationality.; 6/5/10, 9:17 AM
miller said...: You subject Israel to standards no other country must live to.

You are simply a Jew-hater without the integrity to so claim.

Grow up, admit your Jew-hatred. At least you'll be honest.; 6/5/10, 9:37 AM
jr565 said...: Duscany wrote:
As I told another poster the only reasonable position in this interminable and intractable conflict (and therefore the one I practice) is "the hell with either side."

Actually you can side with the side that's in the right. One, which is the only country in the entire Middle East that allows women to drive, allows "the enemy" to serve in it's govt, allows for human rights. Do you realize for example, that jews aren't even allowed in Jordan or Saudi Arabia? That in many of those countries they stone gays or women who get gang raped? That Muslims control 99.9% of the Middle East and don't allow any other groups to control anything?
Palestine was not a country that "Palestinians controlled and which was taken by the Jews. It was uninhabitable land that various farmers and nomads were living on. It was a region, like say the Mojave desert, not a country. The Jews had as much right to it as anyone esle.
Also consider, at the end of WWI ALL of the ME countries were essentially created by Britain and France. We don't hear much about how any of these other countries are illegitimate. Yet the Muslims did very well for themselves. Saudi Arabia, FAR larger than Israel or even the region of Palestine was given to Muslims SOLELY as a place for Muslims, and they've kept it that way for the longest time
If you look at a map of the Middle East you see how tiny Israel is in comparison to it's neighbors who don't allow any Jews (how many jews were kicked out of the various ME countries when Israel was formed who could never go back , nor would they want to considering how they were treated as fourth class citizens).
in respect to Israel and the Palestinians, I look at it as the Muslims already got the better deal. You have to go back to the beginning when the wester powers were discussing Palestine as a place for the Jews. If you look on maps it was the entire region tha encompasses Jordan, the West band and Israel and it was initially ALL going to go for the state of Israel (and even then that would still be a tiny sliver of land in comparison to that given to others). Then WWI happened and Britain was aided in it's effortsto fight the Turnks by Abdullah and his brother who were Hashemites. For their reward they were given control of Iraq and Transjordan. What was Transjordan? Transjordan was simply the region of Palestine (initially promised to the Jews) which was then chopped up, with 75% of it going to Abdullah who was not even a Palestinian.
But think about it. What is a Palestinian. If you define a Palestinian as one who resides in historic Palestine then Jews and Muslims were Palestinians. And the Muslims already control 75% of that land!
And they still want the remaining 25% to reclaim all of Palestine. For all the talk of the Jews being zionists how often do you hear the Israelis saying they need to reclaim all of Palestine? It's the Palestinians doing that. And they, despite Cedarfords lies to the contrary view Palestine as historic Palestine (as it was when the Brits were first discussing how to divy up the land) which is why their maps don't include Israel. It's the exact same land mass as historic Palestine.; 6/5/10, 9:44 AM
jr565 said...: -cont-

And the funniest thing is, until Yasser Arafat came along, there wasn't even a "Palestinian" identity. It's simply a made up construct designed to stoke anger towards Israel and force a claim on Israel that Israel took something from them. Not at all. As soon as Israel declared it's existense and was attacked for it Jordan controlled the West Bank illegallly. Does Jordan own the West Bank? Yet, there were no calls of occupation by the left nor by the "Palestinians" for those 20 years, because West Bank Palestinians are indistinguishable from East Bank Palestinians so there would be no reason to say they were being occupied. You could argue that Hashemites have no business controlling Jordan since they are a minority, but that is something for the Jordanians to work out. IN any case, the country that has the majority of Palestinians to this day and which encompasses most of historic Palestine is already under Muslim control. And the one remaining area at issue (the West Bank) was never officially owned by anyone, not the Palestinians and not Jordan. Yes, Israel is occupying it now, because they won it in a war (just as Jordan seized it in 1948) but who are they occupying it from considering it's ownership had yet to be firmly established.
So you can pick sides. Pick the side that affords human rights and which treats its muslim population better than most muslims treat their muslim population. Recognize that Israel for all the talk of zionism is a TINY country being surrounded on all sides by tyrannical despots who only want to destoy it, who were given tremendous amounts of land after WWI and who don't share well with others, and are fighting tooth and nail to drive the Jews into the sea. Israel for all it's strength is not the aggressor. It's the underdog.; 6/5/10, 9:45 AM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: With a name like "Furkin Dogan" is it any wonder the guy's family actually decided to raise him outside of the U.S.?

As far as this nonsense about what Israel can supposedly get "the local constable" in Gaza to do, well... I think that just speaks to how far gone Duscany is from reality.; 6/5/10, 9:50 AM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Our primary Middle Eastern military ally at the time was Iran (Israel was supplied by France), and we were neutral in the 1967 war. There's no theory that can explain why we would cover up a deliberate Israeli attack that can also explain why we weren't on their side in the first place.

This is a good catch, Revenant.; 6/5/10, 9:54 AM
Anonymous said...: Kent,

All you have to do is post the part of the poll (use actual quotes)that expresses the thought "the hell with either side." The fact that you haven't done it now after two tries shows that you can't do it. And the reason you can't is because it's not there. You can huff and puff all you want but the quote is not there. You made it up. Furthermore you know you did.; 6/5/10, 1:29 PM
Anonymous said...: Ritmo Brasileiro: "With a name like "Furkin Dogan" is it any wonder the guy's family actually decided to raise him outside of the U.S.?"

Israeli commandos shoot a teenage boy four times in the head (and once in the chest) and your response is to ridicule the kid's name?; 6/5/10, 1:36 PM
miller said...: My response to someone being on a boat that is full of terrorists is "you swim with the sharks, you get eaten by sharks."

It is sad in that it's sad when stupidity is rewarded so richly. But like Rachel Corrie who could not understand that bulldozers are big, hard-to-stop machines, this kid from Turkey thought that his mere moral presence would teach those Jews a lesson.

He didn't understand that he was siding with terrorists. Or, he understood and didn't think it was wrong.

Either way, he paid the price for HIS stupidity and moral insanity.

I know - one standard for Jews, another standard for terrorists.; 6/5/10, 2:29 PM
Anonymous said...: Miller: My response to someone being on a boat that is full of terrorists is "you swim with the sharks, you get eaten by sharks."

I think the folks who ate him were commandos from the White-Phosphorus-Over-Gaza brigade.; 6/5/10, 3:23 PM
kent said...: ... and, weaseling shamelessly, Duscany proves me a prophet:

"Simpering that you are still incapable of seeing what is both plain and manifest, at that point, will simply further cement your established status here as a particularly clumsy and ineffectual liar."

Quelle surprise.; 6/5/10, 6:31 PM
Anonymous said...: Show me the quote, Kent, if you can.; 6/5/10, 7:16 PM
kent said...: Duscany [hands over ears, eyes squeezed shut]: "LALALALALALA ICAN'THEEEEEEAAAAARRRRRRYOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUU -- !!!"

*snort*; 6/5/10, 7:23 PM
miller said...: If you hang around with terrorists AND you end up doing what terrorists are doing, it is NO SURPRISE when you get treated as a terrorist.

Was this Turkish guy waving his American passport and singing "Kumbaya"? Or was he in the crowd that was beating the soldiers with metal rods?

They were apparently expecting the Jews to lie down and take it. Not so much fun when the Jews fight back, is it?; 6/5/10, 10:17 PM
Anonymous said...: Miller: "They were apparently expecting the Jews to lie down and take it. Not so much fun when the Jews fight back, is it?"

No, it's not fun when commandos shoot a teenage boy four times in the head. But it's easy enough to understand why they did it. They were trying to establish the Zohan principle--"Israel is a mad dog too dangerous to mess with."

This may be emotionally satisfying to you--I read that as soon as the killings were announced raucous celebrations broke out all all over Israel--but I cannot see how this helps Israel in the long run. With this single assault Netanyahu has managed to put Israel on one side of the siege-of Gaza and the rest of the world on the other. It might not yet be clear to you but Netanyahu is going down and when he falls the Israeli siege of Gaza will collapse as well.; 6/5/10, 11:48 PM
miller said...: Oh now you're just playing. You've established the principle that you hate Jews.

It's OK for every other country in the world to protect its own national interest and sovereignty except the Jews.

You can continue to set up the one rule for Israel and another rule for all other nations.

It's simply Jew-hatred.

Go back to reading your Stormfront newspaper.; 6/6/10, 8:28 AM
Anonymous said...: Miller: "It's OK for every other country in the world to protect its own national interest and sovereignty except the Jews."

What is wrong, of course, is the way the Israelis went about it.

Netanyahu sent his trigger-fingered commandos rappelling down ropes to accost an unarmed civilian ship in international waters in the middle of the night. The US had repeatedly warned him against stunts like this but he wanted to provoke a confrontation. He wanted anyone who was possibly thinking of breaking the Gaza blockade to say to himself, “Holy crap. The Israelis are nuts. We better not mess with them.”

Well he got his wish. People all over the world are now saying “The Israelis are nuts.”; 6/6/10, 5:23 PM
miller said...: Except that you are wrong on the details, the facts, the set-up, and the results, why, Duscany, you are on a roll here.; 6/6/10, 6:01 PM
kent said...: an unarmed civilian ship

Video: Flotilla passengers threw stun grenades before troops boarded

Duscany busted for lying outright not once, but TWICE in a single thread.

Fancy that.; 6/6/10, 7:32 PM
Anonymous said...: Post the quote, Kent.; 6/6/10, 9:23 PM
kent said...: Duscany [hands over ears, eyes squeezed shut]: "LALALALALALA ICAN'THEEEEEAAAARRRRRRYOOOOOOUUUUUUUUU -- !!!"

Poor, dumb, pwned fuckwit. ROTFLMAO!!!; 6/6/10, 9:34 PM
miller said...: "an unarmed civilian ship"

Who said that?; 6/7/10, 10:33 AM
kent said...: Who said that?

That would be resident (and howlingly inept) bullshit artist Duscany, who will certainly find even his nearly preternatural ability to lie, straightfaced, sorely tested by:

HEAVY WEAPONS Discovered in Cargo of Mavi Marmara

"... (B)ehind the bags of flour were boxes of heavy weapons and ammunition: mortars, artillery shells, bazookas, without counting a trunk where more than one million euros was found intended for Hamas."

As they say in the newspaper game: " -(30)-." ;); 6/7/10, 1:56 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: It is worth noting that the link provided by Kent was a LIE and a HOAX.

Here is what is up on that page today:
"This email that is making the rounds today is a HOAX———–
(HEAVY WEAPONS Discovered in Cargo of Mavi Marmara)

This video is a hoax- the video was taken from a ship boarded in 2009."

Hoax, my ass. It's an intentional lie.

Meanwhile, FOOD is still blockaded from the Gaza Strip. Not all food but fresh meat, certain nuts, etc.

How is fresh meat a threat to Israel? It's not. They are collectively punishing the Gaza population - an illegal and immoral act.

Jews and Palestinians are human beings and equals.; 6/8/10, 1:15 PM
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