Althouse: "George Tiller, a Wichita doctor who was one of the few doctors in the nation to perform late-term abortions, was shot to death on Sunday..."

May 31, 2009

"George Tiller, a Wichita doctor who was one of the few doctors in the nation to perform late-term abortions, was shot to death on Sunday..."

"... as he attended church.... Wichita police said that the shots were fired from a handgun in the church lobby during the morning service."

274 comments:

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Fred4Pres said...: This is very bad news for pro lifers. A few criminal zealots creating martyrs is a very stupid strategy.

It is also completely morally wrong.; 5/31/09, 12:42 PM
Fred4Pres said...: I am sorry to Dr. Tiller's family. I disagreed with him on late term abortions, they should be banned with very limited exceptions. But this is very wrong.; 5/31/09, 12:44 PM
Kensington said...: Just to keep things in perspective, because I'm sure the media and the Left won't: you can still count the total number of abortionists murdered in America on the fingers of two hands.

I think Tiller makes 8.

That doesn't make it okay, but it's hardly a trend, and the pro-life movement is not responsible for this.; 5/31/09, 12:47 PM
OhioAnne said...: Absolute tragedy.

I disagreed with the man, but murder was not the solution. The person(s) responsible should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.; 5/31/09, 12:47 PM
Peter Hoh said...: the pro-life movement is not responsible for this

And the basis for your claim is what?; 5/31/09, 12:52 PM
Palladian said...: "the pro-life movement is not responsible for this

And the basis for your claim is what?"

Do you blame all Muslims for September 11th?; 5/31/09, 12:54 PM
The Dude said...: Killer must not have known that the church was a no-gun zone.; 5/31/09, 12:56 PM
Kensington said...: "And the basis for your claim is what?"That the pro-life movement is filled with millions of people, and only a crazy handful have ever killed anyone.

Look around you, the pro-life movement is already falling all over itself to denounce what this obscene monster did today (the murderer0.; 5/31/09, 12:56 PM
Peter Hoh said...: No, but I'll blame those clerics who inflame young men with calls to martyrdom and promises of paradise.; 5/31/09, 12:57 PM
Palladian said...: Get ready for the death of the Second Amendment.; 5/31/09, 12:57 PM
Palladian said...: "No, but I'll blame those clerics who inflame young men with calls to martyrdom and promises of paradise."

Can you point me to statements by credible leaders of the pro-life movement that advocate killing doctors?; 5/31/09, 12:58 PM
Zachary Sire said...: Well, if the killer gets the death penalty, it'll be like the Circle of Life or something, right?!?; 5/31/09, 1:03 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: So, today is a day when the pro-life movement and the pro-choice movement can come together in honoring the sanctity of human life?; 5/31/09, 1:05 PM
Peter Hoh said...: I think it would be easy to claim that clerics who encourage suicide bombers are not credible Muslim leaders, so keep that in mind.

Because they have taken a radical position, I'm sure you'll want to insist that Advocates for Life Ministries is a fringe group and are not "credible" leaders in the pro-life cause, but here's an article linking them to an abortion doctor hit list.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1023-221054.html; 5/31/09, 1:05 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Yes, Freeman, and I'm good with that.

It is hard to change the Constitution, but it's a hell of a lot more appropriate than shooting those with whom you disagree.; 5/31/09, 1:07 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/31/09, 1:08 PM
Zachary Sire said...: We sure do love to kill people in the good ol' USA! As a liberal, I would be willing to make a compromise with all you gun nuts: I'll agree to outlawing all abortions if you agree to ban guns. Deal?; 5/31/09, 1:09 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: It is hard to change the Constitution, but it's a hell of a lot more appropriate than shooting those with whom you disagree.

True. Also more appropriate than sticking scissors in people's heads... not that you need to change the Constitution to do that.; 5/31/09, 1:09 PM
Kensington said...: I think it goes "Thou shalt not kill."".

Actually, it really doesn't. The commandment is Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder, drawing a distinction between just and unjust killing.

This distinction is irrelevant to the events of today but still important enough to get right.; 5/31/09, 1:14 PM
Zachary Sire said...: Also, know that I'm not opposed to abortion because I believe life begins at the moment of conception or for any moral or religious reasons... I'm opposed to abortion because I think you should take responsibility for your actions. Unless of course you were raped. That would be a total bummer to raise a rape baby. But hey, you never know. Your rape baby could end up being a really cool person.; 5/31/09, 1:15 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: For anyone who didn't understand my reference to scissors.; 5/31/09, 1:17 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Freeman, are you attempting to suggest that I'm in favor of that practice?; 5/31/09, 1:18 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Peter, absolutely not.

But some are, and Tiller was one of them.; 5/31/09, 1:19 PM
Kensington said...: "Your rape baby could end up being a really cool person.".

Well, yeah. Why wouldn't it have as much of a chance of that as any other baby, assuming it was raised by loving parents?; 5/31/09, 1:19 PM
Matt Eckert said...: Here we separated; they to go to Harper's Ferry, I to Rochester. There has been some difference of opinion as to the propriety of my course in thus leaving my friend. Some have thought that I ought to have gone with him; but I have no reproaches for myself at this point, and since I have been assailed only by colored men who kept even farther from this brave and heroic man than I did, I shall not trouble myself much about their criticisms. They compliment me in assuming that I should perform greater deeds than themselves.

Such then was my connection with John Brown, and it may be asked, if this is all, why I should have objected to being sent to Virginia to be tried for the offense charged. The explanation is not difficult. I knew that if my enemies could not prove me guilty of the offense of being with John Brown, they could prove that I was Frederick Douglass; they could prove that I was in correspondence and conspiracy with Brown against slavery; they could prove that I brought Shields Green, one of the bravest of his soldiers, all the way from Rochester to him at Chambersburg; they could prove that I brought money to aid him, and in what was then the state of the public mind I could not hope to make a jury of Virginia believe I did not go the whole length he went, or that I was not one of his supporters; and I knew that all Virginia, were I once in her clutches, would say "Let him be hanged."

Before I had left Canada for England, Jeremiah Anderson, one of Brown's men, who was present and took part in the raid, but escaped by the mountains, joined me, and he told me that he and Shields Green were sent out on special duty as soon as the capture of the arsenal, etc., was effected. Their business was to bring in the slaves from the surrounding country, and hence they were on the outside when Brown was surrounded. I said, to him, "Why then did not Shields come with you?" "Well," he said, "I told him to come; that we could do nothing more, but he simply said he must go down to de ole man."

Anderson further told me that Captain Brown was careful to keep his plans from his men, and that there was much opposition among them when they found what were the precise movments determined upon; but they were an oath-bound company, and like good soldiers were agreed to follow their captain wherever he might lead.

Frederick Douglas on John Brown; 5/31/09, 1:20 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Oh, now we're going to hear that those who kill abortion providers are the modern-day equivalent of abolitionists. And I thought moral relativism was the province of the left.

Look, it's not as if there are insurmountable obstacles to changing the constitution. Those opposed to abortion have never made a serious effort to do so.; 5/31/09, 1:24 PM
Anonymous said...: Kansas doctor George Tiller killed today!
WICHITA, Kansas - Media reports say that abortion provider Dr. George Tiller has been shot and killed at his Wichita church. Tiller has been among the few U.S. physicians performing late-term abortion. His clinic has repeatedly been the site of protests for about two decades. He was acquitted in March of misdemeanor charges stemming from procedures he performed, but moments after the verdict the state’s medical board announced it was investigating allegations against him that are nearly identical to those the jury had rejected.
The video from the scene:Dr. George Tiller-video; 5/31/09, 1:30 PM
Steve M. Galbraith said...: They compliment me in assuming that I should perform greater deeds than themselves.
OT: What a brilliant retort.; 5/31/09, 1:30 PM
Big Mike said...: @Zach, banning all abortions would take us back to back alleys and bloody coat hangers. Banning all guns would create a wildly lucrative line of business for the mob. Can't imagine why you suggest something quite as foolish as your comment at 1:09.

At any rate banning guns would not necessarily have saved the doctor's life -- instructions on how to make a pipe bomb are supposedly readily available on the Web (I haven't looked) and Muslims do quite well with beheadings.

That the doctor was murdered because of his propensity for performing late-term abortions is a reasonable thing to surmise, but I'd like to remind people that at this point we don't have much in the way of facts as to his murder's motive.; 5/31/09, 1:32 PM
rhhardin said...: It's great for the news cycle, which is what makes all this possible in the first place.

They'd sell the whole country out if it meant viewers, and have.

It's a news cycle business story, not an abortion story.; 5/31/09, 1:33 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Why hasn't there been a credible effort to amend the constitution to overturn Roe?

Rather than putting this up for a vote, the political arm of the pro-life movement has been willing to fan the flames of rage against abortion. They get votes and money, but they aren't doing anything to put an end to abortion.

I ran across at least one pro-lifer who didn't think it was possible to amend the constitution in order to overturn a previous Supreme Court ruling. I wondered how someone so passionate about the issue could be so misinformed.

Roe could be overturned by the Court itself, of course. For some time now, a majority of the justices have been appointed by pro-life presidents, but that hasn't been enough. Somehow, it will always happen after one more election. Some might conclude that the GOP is stringing along pro-life voters.; 5/31/09, 1:38 PM
Peter Hoh said...: aser, you might want to give a little context for that exclamation point, lest you give the impression that you approve of today's events.; 5/31/09, 1:40 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Wouldn't the context be that it's major news?; 5/31/09, 1:41 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Remember the old admonition that no one ever lays on their death bed and wishes they had worked more.

I wonder if Dr. Tiller had even a split second before he died to ponder his life's work?; 5/31/09, 1:45 PM
Peter Hoh said...: The default for an exclamation point is excitement. If one does not wish to give that impression, and he or she does nothing to dispel that impression, then he or she is a sloppy writer.; 5/31/09, 1:45 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: I wonder if Dr. Tiller had even a split second before he died to ponder his life's work?

I hope so. Plus another split second to repent of it.; 5/31/09, 1:47 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: The default for an exclamation point is excitement.

Is it? I have to disagree.

Fire!
Extra! Extra! Read all about it!
He's been shot!
That's terrible!

Etc.; 5/31/09, 1:48 PM
Peter Hoh said...: AJ, I know someone who, when lying on her deathbed, might well wish that she had spent more time teaching people the correct use of "lay" and "lie."; 5/31/09, 1:50 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Freeman, announcing a death with an exclamation point is not the same as exclaiming "Fire!" or "He's been shot!"

If Scalia kicks the bucket, you gonna give me a pass for entering a thread to write "Scalia is dead!"?; 5/31/09, 1:54 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Peter- I never can remember which to use. I swear I gave it some thought!; 5/31/09, 1:56 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Unless you followed that up by writing that you were happy about it or unless you'd made it known in the past that you hated his guts, yes. It would be very big news.; 5/31/09, 1:57 PM
Palladian said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/31/09, 2:03 PM
tom faranda said...: Tiller is the third abortionist murdered. The murderer of the first one was executed n FL. a few years back, and the second killer, who said he wasn't trying to kill the abortionist, in Rochester, NY, has a life sentence.

Tiller was doing evil things, but that doesn't justify his murder. It's a very bad day for the pro-life movement.; 5/31/09, 2:04 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Fair enough, Freeman. I don't want to get hung up on aser's punctuation.

AJ, "lay" and "lie" give a lot of people grief. My MIL hates it when nurses get it wrong, and has done her best to teach those who are close to her.

Here is a handy primer. I especially like the tip to write all 6 words out.

Over and out for now. I'm heading to the garden.; 5/31/09, 2:05 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: I wonder if President Obama will be able to resist making a comment on this story?; 5/31/09, 2:13 PM
hombre said...: Peter Hoh wrote: Oh, now we're going to hear that those who kill abortion providers are the modern-day equivalent of abolitionists. And I thought moral relativism was the province of the left.

I don't think anybody here is condoning the murder of abortionists. Quite the contrary.

On the other hand you don't appear to be troubled by the 45 million abortions since Roe.

Moral relativism is the province of the left.

Peter Hoh wrote: Why hasn't there been a credible effort to amend the constitution to overturn Roe?

a. It is incredibly difficult to amend the Constitution. b. If the Constitution had any particular significance to pro-abortion judges, Roe wouldn't be the law.; 5/31/09, 2:15 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: I wonder if President Obama will be able to resist making a comment on this story?

I bet he doesn't want to go near it.; 5/31/09, 2:15 PM
Unknown said...: I'll agree to outlawing all abortions if you agree to ban guns. Deal?

I would take that deal, yes.; 5/31/09, 2:16 PM
Fr Martin Fox said...: Peter Hoh:

How about the following as a measure of whether some group or individual counts as a "credible leader" in the pro life movement:

> A substantial following -- memberships or subscriptions (feel free to offer a number that counts as "substantial."); I think website hits doesn't count so much, since I've watched some pretty odd videos on Youtube--doesn't mean I agree with them.

> Does this group or individual get invited to meetings with politicians or other prolife groups?

Maybe others can offer criteria.

Look: if you want to find someone who thinks murdering abortionists is a good idea, you'll find that person; you will find a "group" (a website does not a "group" make) if you poke around.

Consider that flaky "Baptist" preacher Fred Phelps who pickets soldiers' funerals. I haven't noticed anyone who expected any of the Baptist denominations had to apologize or wring their hands over him--everyone pretty much knows he doesn't represent any other Baptists, just himself and a few other followers.

The facts are the same with prolifers. If you go to Washington D.C. for the annual March for Life--where obviously you're going to get the most passionate and devoted, since they have to go to great lengths to attend a march in pretty bad weather--you will see a sea of peacefully and conventionally rowdy people and I think if you talk to the police who work that rally, they'll tell you it's a family crowd.

If we want to compare crazy quotients, I think many other movements have a larger share of those prone to violence than the prolifers. Not to say those other groups are to be blamed either; it's just a fact of life. Legit movements attract some troubling people.; 5/31/09, 2:17 PM
hombre said...: Sorry I missed you, Peter.

May God have mercy on George Tiller's soul.; 5/31/09, 2:18 PM
jeff said...: Our family doctor retired when I was 4 or 5 so we switched to a young Dr Tiller just starting his family practice. He fixed my knee in 71 or 72. I remember sitting in the waiting room full of obviously pregnant women. I tried to make an appointment with him in the mid 90's when I came down with a severe case of the flue and was told that I was no longer a patient of his, and that he was no longer accepting new patients and would not be releasing my records to me so I could move to a new Dr. Pretty sure his business model was accepting plenty of new patients. He made a ton of money in his specialty. They have already scheduled a candle light memorial for him tonight downtown. Personally I found him a jerk and have already seen the canonization begin. However in this country, being a jerk shouldn't be a death sentence and I hope whoever did this gets whatever the maximum is these days be it the death penalty or the hard forty.; 5/31/09, 2:21 PM
Joe M. said...: An ugly thing.; 5/31/09, 2:26 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Be interesting to see what Dr. Tiller was worth.

Maybe he provided a lot of free medical care cause he believed in expansive abortion rights? Nah that is not likely.; 5/31/09, 2:28 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: AJ, I think he believed in expensive abortion rights.; 5/31/09, 2:31 PM
somefeller said...: "If we want to compare crazy quotients, I think many other movements have a larger share of those prone to violence than the prolifers. Not to say those other groups are to be blamed either; it's just a fact of life. Legit movements attract some troubling people."

Really? How many other "legit movements" have active terrorist wings that commit murders and bombings on a semi-regular basis? I certainly haven't seen many anti-capital gains tax advocates doing that. Face it, the pro-life movement is one of the very few domestic political movements in this country that has an active terrorist wing. (And before someone mentions Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, yeah, they have done a lot worse, and they too should be stamped out - however Islamic fundamentalism is more of a hostile foreign threat that has operated in this country than a domestic political movement.)

Does that mean that pro-lifers support terrorism? Of course not. But let's not go into head-in-the-sand mode regarding this sort of thing, and these sorts of acts provide the context for laws like the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act and the need for high security at pro-choice political events. Like it or not, terrorism is a part of the pro-life movement in America today.; 5/31/09, 2:33 PM
Skyler said...: I don't condone this crime at all.

But nor do I feel the slightest pity for the murderer who was murdered.

@Zach, banning all abortions would take us back to back alleys and bloody coat hangers.

But if abortions are banned, the people going to those back alleys and using those coat hangers would be recognized by the law as the murderers that they are, so why should we care?; 5/31/09, 2:37 PM
DADvocate said...: It is reasonable to think Tiller was shot by an anti-abortionist but until the guy is caught we don't know for sure. Many originally thought the Oklahoma City bombing was by Muslims.

Late term abortions are horrific but I find them acceptable if truly needed to save the life of the mother.

BTW - Malcom X was a rape baby.; 5/31/09, 2:38 PM
somefeller said...: "AJ, I think he believed in expensive abortion rights."

Oh, what a knee-slapper, Freeman! Such a rapier-like wit you have.; 5/31/09, 2:45 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: I know. I kill me. Ha ha ha. Ha.; 5/31/09, 2:46 PM
somefeller said...: Showing your usual level of class, I see. You must be a lot of fun at parties at the trailer park.; 5/31/09, 2:50 PM
Unknown said...: @Zach, banning all abortions would take us back to back alleys and bloody coat hangers. Banning all guns would create a wildly lucrative line of business for the mob. Can't imagine why you suggest something quite as foolish as your comment at 1:09.

Given the numbers it's a net win for life.; 5/31/09, 2:51 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Certainly not as much fun as the humorless, liberal scold. :); 5/31/09, 2:52 PM
UWS guy said...: Shorter freeman hunt:

"I don't condone his murder in the house of our lord...by the way the bastard got what was comming to him and is now in hell."; 5/31/09, 2:53 PM
UWS guy said...: Even shorter freeman hunt:

"Allah Akbar!"; 5/31/09, 2:56 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: UWS Guy: I haven't written anything like that.

People shouldn't be murdering people. That goes for Tiller and his murderer.; 5/31/09, 2:57 PM
somefeller said...: I've got a great sense of humor, as partially evidenced by the fact that I don't usually deploy it at the expense of people who were murdered earlier in the day. But, as they say, class will out.; 5/31/09, 2:57 PM
Unknown said...: "A little murder, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants."; 5/31/09, 3:02 PM
Revenant said...: That the pro-life movement is filled with millions of people, and only a crazy handful have ever killed anyone.

Is it "crazy"?

Many, if not most, people in the pro-life movement claim that abortion is murder. Is it "crazy" to kill a mass-murderer whom the police not only refuse to arrest, but help protect? Especially when doing so will likely prevent future murders (so few doctors perform late-term abortions that some pregnant mothers will probably end up not getting them now)?

I'm pro-choice, so I think the killer was wrong and ought to be punished. But was his reasoning really "crazy"? To me it seems crazier to think that abortion is murder and NOT form lynch mobs to deal with abortionists.; 5/31/09, 3:04 PM
Unknown said...: To me it seems crazier to think that abortion is murder and NOT form lynch mobs to deal with abortionists.

Only if that approach had any chance of long-term success. It seems to me that such lynch mobs would be suppressed with considerable force.; 5/31/09, 3:09 PM
UWS guy said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/31/09, 3:11 PM
UWS guy said...: Shorter mgc:

"we'd murder more if we could get away with it"; 5/31/09, 3:13 PM
dbp said...: If pro-lifers were militant, I think that they could kill or intimidate a total end to abortion. But then what? Every interest group would use murder to get their way and society would dissolve into chaos.

The very rareity of these murders tells me that pro-lifer's first commitment is to the rule of law. The institutions that make up our civilization are more important than any one cause.; 5/31/09, 3:20 PM
jeff said...: "I've got a great sense of humor, as partially evidenced by the fact that I don't usually deploy it at the expense of people who were murdered earlier in the day. But, as they say, class will out."

No doubt. How about more slams at people who live in trailer parks?; 5/31/09, 3:20 PM
Peter Hoh said...: I should have made it clear that while I wanted to challenge Kensington on the quick "the pro-life movement is not responsible for this," I'm not suggesting that the pro-life movement is responsible for this murder.

All too often on these comment threads, the actions/words of a left-leaning wacko are taken to represent the height of liberalism, while the actions/words of a right-leaning wacko are summarily dismissed.

Using fringe characters to draw sweeping conclusions about people who may hold a few similar opinions is poor rhetoric.; 5/31/09, 3:22 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: somefeller, did you feel such solemn and reverential respect for the people he was killing everyday? Murder is wrong, both against him and by him.; 5/31/09, 3:24 PM
Unknown said...: Wow, I've been out of touch today. I hadn't heard a thing about it.

And I was within a couple miles of that church when it happened and drove right by it an hour or so later. (I didn't notice any police there.); 5/31/09, 3:25 PM
Unknown said...: Shorter mgc: "we'd murder more if we could get away with it"

UWS guy, quit being a dickweed. My response is simply a challenge to Revenant's claim that it is somehow illogical for someone who thinks abortion is murder to engage in defensive homicide. The fact is that killing an unborn child is legal and killing the killer of that child is not. That alone changes the logic.; 5/31/09, 3:25 PM
Peter Hoh said...: elHombre, I have not said anything to suggest an opinion on abortion. Stop trying to read minds.; 5/31/09, 3:26 PM
Jennifer said...: How awful.

To me it seems crazier to think that abortion is murder and NOT form lynch mobs to deal with abortionists.

Clearly, the vast, vast majority disagree with you. As do people who believe the Bush lied, people died rhetoric and never tried to assassinate the President or troops. As do people who believe the federal government created AIDS to kill off black people and never tried to murder whomever would be responsible for that one. Etc...

Not to compare pro-lifers with either of the aforementioned groups.

I'm pro-choice, so I think the killer was wrong and ought to be punished.

I keep seeing statements like this. The pro-life movement is on the tips of its toes, shouting from the rooftops that they find this act heinous and completely antithetical to their values. Seems likely that I'm part of 99.9% of the population, so I think the killer was wrong and ought to be punished. is more accurate.; 5/31/09, 3:28 PM
mariner said...: somefeller:
But, as they say, class will out.

But, it hasn't yet.; 5/31/09, 3:31 PM
somefeller said...: "somefeller, did you feel such solemn and reverential respect for the people he was killing everyday? Murder is wrong, both against him and by him."

I don't consider abortion to be the equivalent, or even on the same continuum, as murder, so the very premise of your question is flawed. But, that having been said, I also don't generally go around making abortion jokes either.

In any case, I notice no one has been able to come up with examples of legitimate domestic political movements whose fringe members act out with violence with the same level of frequency and intensity as pro-lifers. The animal rights / radical environmentalist types are probably at best, a very distant second, with no one else really coming in third.; 5/31/09, 3:32 PM
Revenant said...: Only if that approach had any chance of long-term success. It seems to me that such lynch mobs would be suppressed with considerable force.

How much "long-term success" does it really need, though? There are only a handful of doctors who perform these procedures. New doctors aren't exactly lining up to follow in their footsteps *now*, and presumably would be less so if there was a good chance of being killed.

Sure, it would mean some pro-lifers would go to jail, or maybe even to death row. But isn't that a worthy sacrifice, if they truly believe what they say they do?; 5/31/09, 3:32 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Some of these people who now whine about your comments Freeman were wishing (if not praying heh) that Cheney's pacemaker failed.; 5/31/09, 3:33 PM
jeff said...: "Using fringe characters to draw sweeping conclusions about people who may hold a few similar opinions is poor rhetoric."

According to Comments on Crooks and Liars Teller was taking his life in his hands living is such a backwards city as Wichita and Foxnews, Republican's and people such as myself who live in what they call The American Taliban city are responsible.; 5/31/09, 3:34 PM
Jennifer said...: But isn't that a worthy sacrifice, if they truly believe what they say they do?Don't they say they believe that life is sacred and it isn't for people to decide when and how to end it for their own personal reasons?; 5/31/09, 3:35 PM
Revenant said...: Seems likely that I'm part of 99.9% of the population, so I think the killer was wrong and ought to be punished. is more accurate.

My point is that the portion of that 99.9% that thinks abortion is murder is, in my opinion, using questionable reasoning when they condemn this.; 5/31/09, 3:36 PM
Revenant said...: Don't they say they believe that life is sacred and it isn't for people to decide when and how to end it for their own personal reasons?

Some do, certainly. But I think the number of "pro-life" people who are truly against ALL killing is very small. Take, as an example, a man preparing to shoot and kill a child. Most "pro-life" people would say that shooting the *man* in order to prevent that death is not only morally acceptable, but morally necessary.; 5/31/09, 3:40 PM
jeff said...: They arrested the guy up near Kansas City. In the small city that my cousin lives in. News conference in about 15 minutes.; 5/31/09, 3:46 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Father Martin Fox: I don't disagree with your list of what defines a credible leader.

I accept the idea that credible leaders of the pro-life movement are not calling for the murder of abortion doctors.

That does not get the political arm of the pro-life movement off the hook for agitating without a credible plan for changing the law. Thirty-plus years of marches on Washington have resulted in what, exactly?; 5/31/09, 3:48 PM
jeff said...: "Thirty-plus years of marches on Washington have resulted in what, exactly?"

Well, a recent poll claims that more people in this country tend pro life. But to your larger point, are you claiming that if you have a political viewpoint that is a minority one, you should basically shut the hell up and get over it?; 5/31/09, 3:52 PM
Peter Hoh said...: No, Jeff, I am arguing that it's wrong to fan the flames of rage when there isn't any credible effort to do the one thing that will satisfy the demand that abortion end.

Instead, those on the fringe are left to imagine that it's up to them to take this matter into their own hands.

Yes, amending the constitution is hard. Does that mean it can't be done? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

The political arm of the pro-life movement has been raiding the pocketbooks and plucking the votes of people who care about this issue, but they aren't getting anything in return.; 5/31/09, 3:57 PM
TitusIsAbsolutelyGlowing said...: What a night fellow republicans.

I was on fire.

I would say about 3 or 4 times a year I have these type of nights.

Walking into every room at every activity we attended heads turned, brief silence and then came the reviews, compliments on arms, hair and clothes, paths were actually made for me to walk through crowds, like Moses did with parting the sea or something like that.

I really was stunning.

The Coup de Grois or is it Pas de Bras was the man I was with for 5 minutes. His name was Naziz or Aziz or Nasir or something like that.

He was one of the most beautiful men I have ever had...for 5 minutes...and we didn't even have sex. But he wanted to and that is what is important.

We took off our shirts, kissed, pulled out our hogs, his was unremarkable but I am not a size queen and I could care a less about the hog. His body was remarkable though. Absolutely perfect. I was intimidated. He had amazing arms, shoulders, back, ass, stomach tris, glutes, calfs bis, and flutes. I felt him from top to bottom. My shirt was off, his shirt was off and are pants were around our ankles. He pulled my pants down hard all the way to the beer soaked floor of the bar.

His hair was delicious. Jett Black with a few long strands down around his forehead, the rest was slicked back.

We messed each others hair up. We like being a little crazy like that. Other guys walked by and were trying to grab my ass as he was against the wall and my ass was out for the entire club to see. But that made him angry. He doesn't like it when other guys touch my the ass. That's just the way we are with each other, we don't like playing around, were better one on one.

His nose was also oh so yummy. A little big and kind of muzzie like but it was absolutely divine.

His teeth were beautiful, straight, white. His lips were a little big, they were like like a sumptious strawberry that you want to suck the juices from.

And then suddenly I left....I was scared. He was too beautiful and had too perfect a body. I could not compete. At some point I would be rejected. He would get to know me and not like me.

My friends said the entire bar was watching us. Other people were doing similar activities around us but they were not receiving the type of accolades that Naziz or Aziz or Nasir or something like that were receiveing. I was a star. I will cherish last night for the rest of my life.

Thank you.; 5/31/09, 4:00 PM
TitusIsAbsolutelyGlowing said...: When I was running out of the bar like Madonna in the Justify My Love video one guy said thanks for the show and a group of guys actually clapped=I am not making that shit up either.; 5/31/09, 4:08 PM
Fen said...: So, today is a day when the pro-life movement and the pro-choice movement can come together in honoring the sanctity of human life?
Spot on. A teacher of mine told us how war protesters in the 60s would burn a puppy alive on the steps of some courthouse. When met with outrage, they would ask "so how can you support the same thing being done to children in Nam?"

But I do wonder how many children Geroge Tiller murdered. Or are we going to pretend that anything late-term is "subhuman"?

Yes, of course its wrong to retaliate by ending his life. I wouldn't give the order, but I'm not sure I'd report the perp for doing it.; 5/31/09, 4:18 PM
SGT Ted said...: Interesting that having legal, peaceful rallies against abortion is "fanning the flames of hatred". I challenge you to prove that assertion.; 5/31/09, 4:20 PM
TitusIsAbsolutelyGlowing said...: Let's focus on love and happiness today.

I hope you are all happy, well fed, have a safe roof over your head and are filled with love and friendships.; 5/31/09, 4:22 PM
UWS guy said...: Shorter Fen...

"My words represent what all the other prolife readers on this blog feel."

Those of you who are prolife and let Fen's words stand are damned by your silence.; 5/31/09, 4:25 PM
TitusIsAbsolutelyGlowing said...: How do I find Naziz or Nasir or Aziz or something like that?

He said he lives in Quincy, Mass.

Help me.

I need to find him.; 5/31/09, 4:27 PM
Peter Hoh said...: SGT Ted, in my mind, the graphic posters of dismembered fetuses and calling abortionists "baby killers" rise to the level of fanning flames. Do both of those things happen during the Washington marches? Maybe not, but they happen often enough. Repeated for 30 years? They create a sense that good people are powerless in the face of this terrible evil.

Put seriously, what's the plan to end abortion? Surely someone could draft an amendment that this new majority of pro-lifers can rally around.; 5/31/09, 4:29 PM
TitusIsAbsolutelyGlowing said...: The guy drove a powder blue Taurus, natch.; 5/31/09, 4:29 PM
TitusIsAbsolutelyGlowing said...: I would be devastated if the guy was driving a Black BMW 328XI.; 5/31/09, 4:32 PM
Big Mike said...: @UWS, you could have started reading the comments from the top -- I think Fred4Pres put it properly for the pro-life and for people such as myself who think that abortion should be legal and safe, but much more rare than it is today and never used for trivial reasons such as gender selection.

It is not we who are shamed by Fen. Acquaintances of mine who are vehemently pro-abortion rights have in the past taunted me that if I really believed abortion to be tantamount to murder of the helpless then I should myself attack abortion clinics. Perhaps someone took your side up on the taunt? At any rate it is not we who are shamed, but the pro-abortion rights people who should, in a just world, be shamed by you.; 5/31/09, 4:38 PM
TitusIsAbsolutelyGlowing said...: There is this posting on one of the gay rag websites where you can post if you saw someone somewhere and want to get a hold of them for a date

The postings are hilarious. "I glanced at you on the Subway, you sandy blonde hair, prada bag, great smile, me 20ish, backpack, baseball cap, reading Baldwin. Our hands touched inside the subway car and are eyes locked. Would love to meet for coffee or lunch. I cant stop thinking of you....please respond to mailbox 14545440.

Maybe I should take one of those postings outs. "We were butt naked in a bar making out and feeling each others hogs, everyone was watching, other guys were trying to feel my ass but you told them to back off, Would love to get together so I can see you in the ligh do you like minature golf. I can't remember you name, is it Naziz? Please respond to mailbox 33353150.; 5/31/09, 4:41 PM
UWS guy said...: Shorter bigmike:

"Pro-choicers should be ashamed that they made our side shoot a man in a church"; 5/31/09, 4:45 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Many man lefties loved to say Bush lied and people died. Some said even worse things.

Would liberals agree those people would have been guilty of fanning the flames if Bush had been killed?; 5/31/09, 4:46 PM
Jennifer said...: I concede your point, to an extent, revenant. Although the rule of law carries enough weight that I can't agree that it's "crazy" not to murder abortionists.

UWS, your challenge is irrelavant until you concede every liberal flame that's ever been thrown here. That said, I don't agree with Fen's comment.; 5/31/09, 4:50 PM
jeff said...: "Yes, amending the constitution is hard. Does that mean it can't be done? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? "

assuming that amending the constitution is the only way to change it. Every time a Republican is President and has a slot on the SC to fill I hear how abortion is on the verge of being outlawed. Which, of course, is silly as it would just revert back to the states.

I missed the comment from Fen and feel no obligation to go find it. Seems like a silly standard to take to gauge my viewpoint.; 5/31/09, 4:55 PM
Anonymous said...: Oh, Freeman, that reference is heartbreaking.

This murder today is awful in every respect. Cable news and their political allies will go berserk. Let's hope the country does not follow.; 5/31/09, 4:58 PM
Unknown said...: How much "long-term success" does it really need, though? There are only a handful of doctors who perform these procedures. New doctors aren't exactly lining up to follow in their footsteps *now*, and presumably would be less so if there was a good chance of being killed.

Sure, it would mean some pro-lifers would go to jail, or maybe even to death row. But isn't that a worthy sacrifice, if they truly believe what they say they do?

Well, I think I was talking past you a bit.

I don't know anyone personally, and I haven't heard of anyone, who are focused solely on late-term abortions. I don't know of anyone who would be satisfied solely with a complete end to all partial-birth abortions. Most pro-lifers consider a much wider subset of abortions to be murder, if not all of them.

A strategy that employed violent means to squelch only late-term abortions would very likely to be detrimental to the overall cause of ending the greater practice of abortion. Indeed it might serve to reduce sympathy for the pro-life cause and increase the number of abortions overall.

So I'm just not seeing a valid calculus here for sacrificing oneself for the cause of reducing the number of abortions.; 5/31/09, 5:04 PM
Unknown said...: By the way it looks like someone is in custody.; 5/31/09, 5:06 PM
Jeremy said...: Kensington said..."Just to keep things in perspective, because I'm sure the media and the Left won't: you can still count the total number of abortionists murdered in America on the fingers of two hands. I think Tiller makes 8."

Be sure to pass that onto the Tiller family, and any of the women who are still alive because of his surgery.

Asshole.; 5/31/09, 5:09 PM
UWS guy said...: Actually matt yglesias has a good post on this subject. Since there were only 2 doctors in Kansas who performed late term abortions this murder has quite a profound effect.

I will say here, that if christianists keep this up, I wouldn't condone a tit for tat murder of say, an evangelical Christian leader, but how did Fen put it?...I wouldn't turn him in either.; 5/31/09, 5:10 PM
Jeremy said...: I've asked this before and never get a reasonable answer:

If your own wife's life was on the line and you had to choose between her or your unborn child...who would YOU choose?; 5/31/09, 5:11 PM
jeff said...: "Be sure to pass that onto the Tiller family, and any of the women who are still alive because of his surgery."

Point. Head. Swish.; 5/31/09, 5:13 PM
Jeremy said...: Fen - Do you consider your friends or relatives who have had abortions...murderers or accomplices to murder?; 5/31/09, 5:14 PM
Jeremy said...: Jeff - Sorry, need clarification.; 5/31/09, 5:15 PM
KCFleming said...: If the killer did so because of the abortion issue, he fell into sin in a way Nietzsche decribed well:
"Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one."

A reprehensible act is met by another reprehensible act, much as the two men will meet again in hell.; 5/31/09, 5:16 PM
Jeremy said...: Jeff - "I tried to make an appointment with him in the mid 90's when I came down with a severe case of the flue and was told that I was no longer a patient of his, and that he was no longer accepting new patients and would not be releasing my records to me so I could move to a new Dr."

Bullshit.

Doctors don't have the right to retain your records.

I don't believe you.; 5/31/09, 5:18 PM
Unknown said...: I've asked this before and never get a reasonable answer:

Really? You must not have asked many people.

If your own wife's life was on the line and you had to choose between her or your unborn child...who would YOU choose?

I've already had this discussion with my wife. I'd pick her in a heartbeat, and it's not even close. But what does that have to do with anything? Abortion for the sake of truly preventing the imminent death of the mother isn't even remotely controversial.; 5/31/09, 5:18 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: So is the vaunted economics expert, Matt Yglesias, suggesting Tiller's sole competitor may be a suspect?; 5/31/09, 5:19 PM
jeff said...: "Bullshit.

Doctors don't have the right to retain your records.

I don't believe you."

I don't care.; 5/31/09, 5:21 PM
Jeremy said...: Jeff - You don't have to "care" to be a liar.

You're lying.; 5/31/09, 5:24 PM
UWS guy said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/31/09, 5:25 PM
jeff said...: "Jeff - You don't have to "care" to be a liar.

You're lying."

Coming from you that means.....nothing.; 5/31/09, 5:30 PM
Jeremy said...: mcg said..."I've already had this discussion with my wife. I'd pick her in a heartbeat, and it's not even close. But what does that have to do with anything? Abortion for the sake of truly preventing the imminent death of the mother isn't even remotely controversial."

Really?

Then you believe late term abortions are related to the health or imminent death of the mother...and should be legal?

That would be news to the Christian right and anti-abortionists because they don't think it's the least bit necessary under any circumstances.; 5/31/09, 5:30 PM
Jeremy said...: Jeff - You're lying and you know it.; 5/31/09, 5:31 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Libtards think everything must revolve around trying to score some points. That explains why they are phony, humorless scolds.; 5/31/09, 5:33 PM
Unknown said...: Then you believe late term abortions are related to the health or imminent death of the mother...and should be legal?

Don't put words in my mouth. I said imminent death. Nothing about "health".

That would be news to the Christian right and anti-abortionists because they don't think it's the least bit necessary under any circumstances.

No, it wouldn't. Again, you moved the goalposts on me. As I have stated it, it's not controversial.

Secondly, the problem with partial-birth abortions is that they aren't even necessary to save the life of the mother in those cases---full premature delivery is also feasible. (Let's face it, if you're going to deliver the baby live that far you can finish the job.); 5/31/09, 5:35 PM
Elliott A said...: Uhhh Jeff.....The Germans did not bomb Pearl Harbor.; 5/31/09, 5:37 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Im 120 percent committed to the pro life cause.
So when somebody is killed it follows that commitment is in some measure assaulted.

Having said that.

I just want to point out that people get killed everyday.
This is nothing but a rush to judgement on the part of the media.

They dont provide one piece of evidence suggesting this was done by some pro life zealot.

They want it to, but so far I see no hard evidence.; 5/31/09, 5:41 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Elliot:

I bet you never saw John Belushi in the movie, Animal House? Suggest you watch it sometime.; 5/31/09, 5:41 PM
Unknown said...: Jeremy, allow me to clarify/correct myself: under no circumstances is it acceptable to kill an unborn child that is viable, even prematurely. Doctors have to consider this all the time in the case of high-risk pregnancies or sudden traumas, often requiring the premature delivery of a child in order to save the life of the mother.

That's not the same as an abortion whose purpose is to terminate the life of the child.

Again, your specific scenario said that it was either the life of the child or the life of the mother. I have a feeling that for some of the scenarios are imagining, this is a false choice: a third option is the emergency delivery of the live child, albeit at heightened risk to the child's health, in order to save the mother's life.; 5/31/09, 5:42 PM
jeff said...: "Uhhh Jeff.....The Germans did not bomb Pearl Harbor."

Uhhh ElliotA....never said they did. Someone else did and they were not serious.; 5/31/09, 5:43 PM
jeff said...: "That would be news to the Christian right and anti-abortionists because they don't think it's the least bit necessary under any circumstances."

Who wants to tell the Christian right and anti-abortionists they have a new spokesman?; 5/31/09, 5:44 PM
Elliott A said...: AJLynch- Saw it in the movies many years ago. My wife (then girlfriend) was afraid my college fraternity was similar. Unfortunately, no. Have you watched Dexter? A deranged person will murder in a heartbeat, and not for a cause. What harm did John Lennon ever do?; 5/31/09, 5:46 PM
Elliott A said...: Jeff- Sorry...Not enough sleep and too much driving today.; 5/31/09, 5:47 PM
Fen said...: UWS Guy: Shorter Fen...

"My words represent what all the other prolife readers on this blog feel."

Huh? Where the hell did I even imply that? You dishonest little weasel.; 5/31/09, 5:53 PM
jeff said...: "What harm did John Lennon ever do?"

Unleashed Yoko Ono on a unsuspecting world.

Agreed that the guy that shot him was nuts. And that shooting him was contemptible.; 5/31/09, 5:54 PM
Jeremy said...: mcg - "I have a feeling that for some of the scenarios are imagining, this is a false choice: a third option is the emergency delivery of the live child, albeit at heightened risk to the child's health, in order to save the mother's life."

That is exactly what the anti-abortionists say.

As if the doctors who perform late term abortions do so as some kind of "elective" choice, as if they could handle matters in another way.

This is not so. Late term procedures are only done in the case of an imminent threat to the mother's life.; 5/31/09, 5:56 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Elliot:

Then you should remember the Germans Bomb Pearl Harbor reference.

Dexter is a super-organized avenger in his own mind anyway.

I don't get your John Lennon question?; 5/31/09, 5:57 PM
Jeremy said...: Lem said..."I just want to point out that people get killed everyday.
This is nothing but a rush to judgement on the part of the media. They dont provide one piece of evidence suggesting this was done by some pro life zealot."

Would you like to bet?; 5/31/09, 5:58 PM
Jeremy said...: AJ Lynch said..."Libtards think everything must revolve around trying to score some points. That explains why they are phony, humorless scolds."

And this relates to the Tiller killing how?

Are you saying it's okay to take the law into your own hands or to murder another human being?; 5/31/09, 6:00 PM
Jeremy said...: Fen - Do you consider your friends or relatives who have had abortions...murderers or accomplices to murder?; 5/31/09, 6:01 PM
Elliott A said...: John Lennon was a public figure murdered by a nut.; 5/31/09, 6:04 PM
Fen said...: Jeremy: Fen - Do you consider your friends or relatives who have had abortions...murderers or accomplices to murder?

Yes.

As for George Tiller, why so much concern for him not the other dozens of George Tillers he slaughtered?

Oh right, they're subhuman. Like slave and savages, the unborn become disposable once you categorize them as Less Than.

Which explains why you guys are always comparing conservatives to Nazis.

Go away Little Brownshirt.; 5/31/09, 6:06 PM
Jeremy said...: Fen said..."Yes."

Have you told them so? Do you you still associate with them?

Of course not.

Hypocrite.; 5/31/09, 6:10 PM
Jeremy said...: Fen - "Oh right, they're subhuman."

Not subhuman, fool. Fetus.

Skip those biology courses?

Skip school entirely?; 5/31/09, 6:11 PM
David said...: Fen--I was around in the 60's and fully conscious, since I did not do drugs. I remember no incidents of war protestors burning puppies, on courthouse steps or elsewhere. They killed a few people by blowing up buildings (some protestors did, not all, really not all of them), but puppies? Even the most vicious SDS radicals did not burn puppies. You had to draw the line somewhere.; 5/31/09, 6:19 PM
dbp said...: UWS Guy: I will say here, that if christianists keep this up, I wouldn't condone a tit for tat murder of say, an evangelical Christian leader, but how did Fen put it?...I wouldn't turn him in either.

5:10 PM

Now who is fanning flames? By your own "logic" if an evangelical minister is killed, you as much as pulled the trigger.; 5/31/09, 6:19 PM
Jeremy said...: Randall Terry, Operation Rescue Founder, Says He's More Concerned About Obama's Reaction Than Tiller's Murder.; 5/31/09, 6:20 PM
Jeremy said...: David - Fen is full of shit, and evidently feels his friends and relatives who have been unfortunate enough to have to have had abortions are all murderers, but doesn't have the guts to tell them how he feels.
(It's his own little secret.)

He'll say literally anything to further his nonsensical arguments.; 5/31/09, 6:25 PM
jeff said...: "I will say here, that if christianists keep this up, I wouldn't condone a tit for tat murder of say, an evangelical Christian leader, but how did Fen put it?...I wouldn't turn him in either."

I hear Hitler was a vegetarian. When do you propose we round up all the vegetarians for their crimes against the Jewish people?

I think you need to call the Wichita police dept and give the names of the 'christianists' that you know are involved in this so they can be prosecuted.; 5/31/09, 6:25 PM
EnigmatiCore said...: Whoever killed him should be subjected to the exact same thing they thought he performed on his 'victims'--- he or she or they should be pulled apart without the benefit of any drugs.; 5/31/09, 6:33 PM
The Exalted said...: burning puppies on courthouse steps? where would i find information on this thoroughly fantastic charge? (besides the recesses of your imagination); 5/31/09, 6:37 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Late term procedures are only done in the case of an imminent threat to the mother's life.

Not true. It's life or health, and health is a very broad term indeed. So broad, some would argue, as to make the restriction meaningless.; 5/31/09, 6:39 PM
KCFleming said...: The federal imposition of a right to abortion by fiat was regrettable for many reasons, including pernitting late term abortion, but also in denying states the ability to construct solutions satisfactory to their voters.

Violence is fomented by the negation of the voter' voice. Lacking the means to decide for themselves what approach best fit with each state, marginal actors begin to see the state as illegitimate and decide to make their own laws.

The left risks further delegitimizing the goverment by their stance against the 2nd amendment and their horrendous overspending.

So more violence is likely.; 5/31/09, 6:42 PM
Jeremy said...: Freeman, get back to us when you actually have to make the choice between a loved on or an unborn fetus.

It's easy to talk the talk but when the actual decision has to be made, I would venture to guess 99% of the people here, and even the hard core anti-abortionists, would choose their loved one over the unborn, whether it be a wife, mother, sister or daughter.; 5/31/09, 6:43 PM
Unknown said...: I would venture to guess 99% of the people here, and even the hard core anti-abortionists, would choose their loved one over the unborn, whether it be a wife, mother, sister or daughter.

Of course, and I don't think anyone disagrees. Your problem is that you're immediately moving the goalposts to include false choices.; 5/31/09, 6:45 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: That's not the choice, Jeremy. That's a ridiculous canard.; 5/31/09, 6:46 PM
Jeremy said...: Pogo said..."The federal imposition of a right to abortion by fiat was regrettable for many reasons, including pernitting late term abortion, but also in denying states the ability to construct solutions satisfactory to their voters."

Right...and if we leave it up to the states, try to imagine the rights every American citizen is entitled to being voted in. If you had a vote right now, there are states that would vote to exclude gays, Hispanics and blacks from living within their borders.

And if it were YOUR wife, mother or daughter you would choose the unborn?; 5/31/09, 6:47 PM
OhioAnne said...: Jeremy said...
mcg - "I have a feeling that for some of the scenarios are imagining, this is a false choice: a third option is the emergency delivery of the live child, albeit at heightened risk to the child's health, in order to save the mother's life."

That is exactly what the anti-abortionists say.

As if the doctors who perform late term abortions do so as some kind of "elective" choice, as if they could handle matters in another way.

This is not so. Late term procedures are only done in the case of an imminent threat to the mother's life.

Not sure that I can agree with that statement.

First, "imminent" threat is not required to my knowledge.

Second, given the risks of late term abortion - infection, etc - delivering the child live is not a "false" choice. At that point in a pregnancy, which option is "least worst" is the question. In individual cases, delivering the child live just may be the safer (not safe) choice.; 5/31/09, 6:47 PM
Jeremy said...: Freeman - You actually think late term abortions are elective? That they're not performed to protect the life of the mother?; 5/31/09, 6:48 PM
Unknown said...: I will say again, I have absolutely no problem with an abortion that is absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother. But I also believe that happens far less than folks like Jeremy would like to believe. As evidence for that he immediately moves the goalpost to "life or health" as soon as such a concession is acknowledged. In particular, it must mean that a live delivery, through the birth canal or by c-section, cannot save the mother's life.

Again, under those conditions, I am totally fine with it, and I dare say nearly all anti-abortionists are. But I'll bet we could could those instances annually on our fingers.; 5/31/09, 6:55 PM
Jeremy said...: Why would anybody believe a doctor would arbitrarily perform a later term abortion if he or she did not believe there was a life at stake?

What would their motivation be?

And why would anybody think a woman would ask for such a procedure unless she felt her own life was at imminent risk?; 5/31/09, 6:56 PM
jeff said...: "Whoever killed him should be subjected to the exact same thing they thought he performed on his 'victims'--- he or she or they should be pulled apart without the benefit of any drugs."

"Not true. It's life or health, and health is a very broad term indeed. So broad, some would argue, as to make the restriction meaningless."

Tiller made his name by doing late term partial birth abortions right up to actual date of birth. He changed from the partial birth to digoxin induction where the fetus is poisoned and labor is induced a day or two later. In 93 he botched one of those and the baby was born alive and eventually was give medical treatment. She was adopted and died 5 years later due to complications of the abortion attempt. Google Sarah Brown Tiller. I don't think the quote marks around victim are appropriate. The state of Kansas requires certain information and based on Tiller's reporting, 1/4 of his late term abortions were due to problems with the fetus. The other 3/4 were healthy and viable. The health reasons for all of the late term abortions were mental health. I lean towards the pro choice side, but to a point. Late term, for me, is beyond that point. To think most or all late term abortions are due to health of mother, or defects of the fetus are just not true. Before having an opinion, one should know something about the subject.; 5/31/09, 6:57 PM
Cedarford said...: I guess this was the 1st killing of an abortionist in 11 years.
In the previous decade, 7 people were killed at abortion clinics they worked at or outside them..

The problem is the same as with the Dredd Scott decision. If you truly believe something is an awful abomination, you may respect the Will of the People as wrong but final as the ultimate expression of the democracy and lefitimacy of our nation..But not the opinion of 5 Justices opposing 4 Justices of opposite opinion intruding on enormous consequential social policy best debated and decided upon by The People. But once SCOTUS has interfered in a controversy where both camps have numerous adherents, our system is set up to end all debate as futile...since there is no recourse to "change the Constitution by Amendment". Any attempt to Amend can easily be blocked unless an overwhelming public consensus exists.

That leaves only the violent or non-violent resistance of such abominations as a tactic. Such as abolitionists, anti-reconstructionists, farmers revolt against Eastern Interests and Trusts, the union movement, and civil rights movement employed.

America is not set up to be like Muslims blindly obeying legal clerics enforcing Sharia on every aspect of life. Nor as overly legalistic Jews who hold law and legal authority higher than democracy. Jews who believe the Final Word on disputed belonged to the Sanhedrin of high lawyer-priests in ancient times, the present Israeli Supreme Court which is placed above the Israeli Parliament and Executive, and Jews in the US who believe SCOTUS is superior with the final word over The People and their elected Representatives serving in the Executive and Legislators at the State and Federal level.

The Jews and Muslims are wrong, IMO. And should seek what they want in other countries, but not America. And various other activists that see courts as a means to bypass democracy are also wrong...

Sometimes, when the courts block all democratic debate and any action to ovveride them - people will engage in violent armed resistance.
That was what followed the Dredd Scott case. The oft-violent tactics of the Underground Railroad led participants to be labeled thieves and murderers. Some were hanged as criminals.

Prominent, wealthy abolitionists in the North armed and funded John Brown's gang.
"When Brown was hanged after his attempt to start a slave rebellion in 1859, church bells rang, minute guns were fired, large memorial meetings took place throughout the North, and famous writers such as Emerson and Thoreau joined many Northerners in praising Brown.[3]

Historians agree John Brown played a major role in starting the Civil War."
Browns strongest argument, his elite followers said, was that the Supreme Court had left no recourse..but violent resistance.

And Brown and his followers killed over a dozen men.
Were tried, and seven hanged.

Brown and other past violent American resistors who went so far as to kill for their cause are considered heroes to some, and villains to others to this day.

I am sure that abortionists that killed late-term babies and the people who then killed the abortionists will have similar non-consensus amongst the general public 100 years from now.

And part of that debate will have to account for the aggressive use of RICO against anti-abortionists barring them from non-violent resistance tactics the Feds freely allowed unions and civil rights protests (and anti-war protests in recent years that blocked traffic and shut down recruiting stations).; 5/31/09, 6:57 PM
Jeremy said...: mcg said..."I will say again, I have absolutely no problem with an abortion that is absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother. But I also believe that happens far less than folks like Jeremy would like to believe."

I never said anything of the kind.

My comments relate to late term abortions.

Period.; 5/31/09, 6:58 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Jeremy, Jeff just answered your questions to me.; 5/31/09, 7:01 PM
EnigmatiCore said...: My god, peeps. This is not an abortion debate. The guy was a murderer, period.

Shame on those trying to defend, or attack, the pro-life side.; 5/31/09, 7:01 PM
Jeremy said...: Jeff - You're just another crazy right wing anti-abortionist fool.

If you had to make the "choice" between your mother, wife or daughter's life, and that of the unborn...who would YOU choose?

The fetus over a living, breathing human being?; 5/31/09, 7:02 PM
Jeremy said...: EnigmatiCore said..."My god, peeps. This is not an abortion debate. The guy was a murderer, period."

Not according to the law.; 5/31/09, 7:03 PM
Unknown said...: Well, we'll just let everyone else judge for themselves what you meant when you said this, Jeremy:

If your own wife's life was on the line and you had to choose between her or your unborn child...who would YOU choose?

And then when I answered, you then said this:

Then you believe late term abortions are related to the health or imminent death of the mother...and should be legal?

And it's quite rich that when Jeff provides you with objective verifiable evidence that happens to contradict you, you simply dismiss him as a tool. Nevermind whether or not what he said is correct.; 5/31/09, 7:04 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: From Tiller's site on late term elective abortion:

"At Women's Health Care Services, we specialize in "late" abortion care. We are able to perform elective abortions to the time in the pregnancy when the fetus is viable. Viability is not a set point in time. Viability is determined by the attending physician and is based on sonogram results, physical examination and last menstrual period date (if known). Our telephone counselors will ask you a number of medical questions to determine if you are eligible for an elective abortion. If you have visited another clinic or physician, we will ask for the results from a recent ultrasound.

Kansas law allows for post-viability abortion procedures when continuing the pregnancy is detrimental to the pregnant woman's health. Each person's circumstances are reviewed on a case-by-base basis. Please call so that we can discuss admission criteria with you."; 5/31/09, 7:04 PM
Jeremy said...: Freeman - I notice you couldn't answer my question.

That's standard.; 5/31/09, 7:04 PM
EnigmatiCore said...: Jeremy, I was convinced FLS was the dumbest lefty on here.

I was talking about the shooter, as would anyone with a brain or a soul would have realized.; 5/31/09, 7:05 PM
Unknown said...: Jeremy: you're misunderstanding EnigmatiCore. He was acknowledging that the person who killed Tiller is a murderer. (Which is of course correct.); 5/31/09, 7:05 PM
EnigmatiCore said...: Actually, I think that anyone with a brain would have realized it.

Jeremy is a troll as many have suspected. But he's a troll from the right.; 5/31/09, 7:06 PM
rhhardin said...: There's a theory, offered by Imus in Mark Chapman's favor, that he was actually trying to kill Yoko, and Lennon just bent over at the wrong second. ``Here, let me pick that up for you.''; 5/31/09, 7:06 PM
Unknown said...: Don't insult FLS like that, EnigmatiCore! I mean he has his moments but he's no Jeremy Michael Olson.; 5/31/09, 7:06 PM
jeff said...: "Jeff - You're just another crazy right wing anti-abortionist fool.

If you had to make the "choice" between your mother, wife or daughter's life, and that of the unborn...who would YOU choose?

The fetus over a living, breathing human being?"

Still having the reading comprehension I see. I was unaware someone who leaned pro-choice was a "right wing anti-abortionist fool"

And your question assumes a complete disregard for facts. Par for the Jeromy course though.; 5/31/09, 7:08 PM
Unknown said...: Jeremy is a troll as many have suspected. But he's a troll from the right.

Now that's an interesting theory. You mean he's a right-winger posting as the dumbest possible left-winger so as to discredit his opponents? I mean it's compelling, but suffers from the fatal flaw that nobody could come across that whacked intentionally.; 5/31/09, 7:09 PM
EnigmatiCore said...: "Shame on those trying to defend, or attack, the pro-life side."

This line was not one subject to being easily misunderstood.

It clearly put those defending the shooter first on the 'nuh-uh' list.

And Jeremy 'misread' it.

No one, NO ONE, is that stupid.

He's playing people. He's a conservative pretending to be a conservative's wet dream of what a lefty is.; 5/31/09, 7:10 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Jeremy, your question isn't germane. Imminent life and death is not at issue.

I see that you have nothing to say about Jeff's comments or Tiller's own site, both of which rebut your comments.; 5/31/09, 7:10 PM
EnigmatiCore said...: mcg, you are probably right.

Maybe he really is that dumb. Because it is unlikely that a conservative would be that clever.; 5/31/09, 7:11 PM
EnigmatiCore said...: That wasn't nice of me. I apologize.; 5/31/09, 7:12 PM
Unknown said...: No apology needed :); 5/31/09, 7:13 PM
Unknown said...: After all, I've wondered similar things about Titus.; 5/31/09, 7:14 PM
somefeller said...: Pogo says: "Violence is fomented by the negation of the voter' voice. Lacking the means to decide for themselves what approach best fit with each state, marginal actors begin to see the state as illegitimate and decide to make their own laws. The left risks further delegitimizing the goverment by their stance against the 2nd amendment and their horrendous overspending. So more violence is likely."

It's funny, you usually talk about the horrible oppression that's coming from the (freely elected in open elections) Obama Administration and how there probably will be violence coming from the left as a result. Yet, as we see today and with the Tennessee Unitarian church shooting, the political violence one sees these days is coming from the Right. And you claim (with a certain shrugging of the shoulders) that more violence is coming as a result of the left's opposition to the Second Amendment (so - what Congressional action is contemplated on that front?) and because of the fiscal policy of the Administration, which by all accounts is pretty widely supported. Funny how you're quick to talk about the liberal demons under your bed, but get a certain analytic distance when it's conservatives doing the shooting.; 5/31/09, 7:16 PM
jeff said...: "He's playing people. He's a conservative pretending to be a conservative's wet dream of what a lefty is."

That was my theory two or three years ago for the very same reason. But other than the occasional name change, he has stayed in character for years.

"Maybe he really is that dumb. Because it is unlikely that a conservative would be that clever."

And the gratuitous insult to conservatives is in response to him?; 5/31/09, 7:17 PM
jeff said...: "That wasn't nice of me. I apologize."
We cross posted. I withdraw my comment.; 5/31/09, 7:18 PM
jeff said...: "the political violence one sees these days is coming from the Right."

Depends on the period of time you cherry pick your data. When is the next globalization conference scheduled?; 5/31/09, 7:20 PM
Unknown said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/31/09, 7:26 PM
Unknown said...: It clearly put those defending the shooter first on the 'nuh-uh' list.

I really don't think anyone is doing that, EC. I think we're all in agreement that the shooter is a murderer who deserves to be punished to the full extent of the law. And then we pretty much moved on immediately.

At that point an honest assessment of the victim is not entirely inconceivable. I mean, let's say for the sake of argument that someone just walked up and shot some random dude sitting in a cafe somewhere. He'd be guilty of murder, of course---even if we found out later that the victim's house was chock full of child porn of his own making. That later discovery wouyldn't change the culpability of the killer but it would change how sorry we felt for the victim.

If you have trouble understanding that, then consider the things that were said about Cheney the last time he had heart trouble. Then you'll get it.; 5/31/09, 7:28 PM
EnigmatiCore said...: "I really don't think anyone is doing that, EC. "

I don't either.

Which is why I am doing the math and think that Jeremy's mask slipped.; 5/31/09, 7:29 PM
Unknown said...: Or after the death of Jerry Falwell.; 5/31/09, 7:29 PM
Unknown said...: I don't either. Which is why I am doing the math and think that Jeremy's mask slipped.

Wouldn't be the first time Jeremy has erected straw men.; 5/31/09, 7:30 PM
EnigmatiCore said...: "I withdraw my comment."

You shouldn't have.

While I have my reasons for having said it, it was a dickhead comment. I appreciate the acceptance of my apology, though.; 5/31/09, 7:33 PM
Unknown said...: Wow, it's looking like the suspect they have in custody really is a nutjob. With multiple prior arrests and a 1998 conviction on bomb charges. The ADL has a mention of him (Scott Roeder). I wonder if Cedarford knows him?; 5/31/09, 7:34 PM
Unknown said...: (h/t Gateway Pundit); 5/31/09, 7:34 PM
traditionalguy said...: Maybe Jeremy was rubbing shoulders with intelligent conservatives around here so long that he woke up one morning with a newfound desire to use the truth in his arguments. It can happen.; 5/31/09, 7:35 PM