I'm afraid he's going to be boring! Did he say anything other than what we already know? There's a big economic problem. Mmm hmm. A fair amount of my attention focused on the almost-readable writing on that thing in the lower right-hand corner. Is that the pot that plant is in -- maybe it says "Arthur" -- or a separate plaque sort of a thing? Anyway, he said something about how the country can "rise again" and how we all need to sacrifice because we all "rise or fall" as "one people." All this rising and oneness...
ADDED: Given the Mad Magazine reference above -- at "Arthur" -- I feel compelled to add:
AND: Tigerhawk asks: "Did I hear the word 'malaise'?"
No... but he did go on at length about the extent to which everything sucks, and that we are going to need a massive new government-run energy program, and that it will involve a lot of "sacrifice." Sorry to say, I have not heard a politician sound so much like Jimmy Carter since, well, 1980.
পোস্টগুলি
১৬৭টি মন্তব্য:
That thing on the bottom looks like a signed basketball. No?
Perhaps the media needs to create a new acronym for President elect Obama. My suggestion is: PeOTUS! His signage should read: From the Office of His Oneness President elect Obama.
Jeez, perhaps He won't call his weekly pronouncements "Fireside Chats" as that would imply a danger to our economy, which must be made 99.44 percent green.
Reminds me of those boring droning health and safety films we were forced to watch in elementary school.
At least he could present some useful information
Is it just me or does Obama already look a bit tired around the eyes. Maybe the reality and responsibility of being President is setting in?
The great thing about George W. Bush is that he hated making speeches, and only did so when he had to. And then the media started ignoring him when he did say something. Those factors helped keep our lives refreshingly speech-free, at least as far as the President was concerned.
Unfortunately, the only thing Obama seems to be able to do is give speeches. So he'll do it a lot. And the media will be there to lick up every word, like a dog searching the kitchen floor for crumbs. Get used to hearing Obama's inspiring, audacious, hope-tastic drone, because you'll be hearing it a lot in the next 4 years.
Anyone tally up the "uh's" he muttered today?
It's just exactly what he did throughout his campaign......and before, during his previous gainful employment years as a public servant....said nothing about nothing. What a surprise huh? Hope is that he will change but reality is he is the same old empty suit.
Boring? Well we did not elect him to be "The Entertainer in Chief." I appreciate the seriousness that he is bringing to public life. While some who are comfortably cloistered away from the economic storm because of they have protected jobs might not see this, those of us who own small businesses (like myself) want the focus shifted away from the trivial to actually dealing with our long term problems.
Also, I am sure that when FDR said "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" some found it boring. History found it to be the making of a great president.
"YOUR Weekly Address from the President Elect"?!!
WTF? The audacity of weekly national messages from the junior senator from Illinois seems as inappropriate as his pre-election tour of the mideast and Germany. Has any other PeOTUS attempted to preempt a sitting, although lame duck president like this? It might be boring, professor, but it is also amazingly arrogant.
Professor, I think the sign on the pot says "Audrey 2" ("Feed me, Barack!").
I told you he was an asshole.
The Ein Volk line is the Goodwin rule of free-running empty rhetoric. Sooner or later every Nazi line turns up.
Ever notice how each of his phrase rises and falls? Strung together, it's like hearing a string of little oratorical humps.
Teleprompter was used so there were no duhs and uhs. I did not hear any meaningful soundbites either.
Obama may turn out to be just another boring white guy.
rrhardin - you shouldn't take credit for that.
rh, yeah but: e pluribus unum. It is our motto, thought up long before Hitler.
(Doesn't have "people," admittedly.)
Anyway, he said something about how the country can "rise again" and how we all need to sacrifice because we all "rise or fall" as "one people." All this rising and oneness...
Politicians always fall back on these moral-spatial metaphors:
I want to lift up, bring together, move forward.
My opponent wants to tear down, divide and roll back
Baby talk.
Palladian said...The great thing about George W. Bush is that he hated making speeches, and only did so when he had to.
No, the great thing about Bush's speeches was what he actually said.
What was all that stuff about Bush? Can't Obama use the power of the Unitary Executive-elect to enact that tax increase he's so obviously softening us up for?
Anybody that has spent time in a business knows that the sellers are horrible operators.
They start selling to the company itself, and things start to get really wobbly.
I was surprised to see that “The Office of the President-Elect” is for real. I was expecting a joke video.
But I soon settled in and paid attention. I felt myself become entranced and now I feel cautiously optimistic about our collective future.
President-Elect Obama inspires confidence.
Matters are well in hand.
I am retreating to my apolitical mode.
I do not listen to politicians on TV (oh wait, the only one I've seen on TV these days is PeO.)
My mute button works fine.
Seriously. I can find out what is necessay and important without practicing masochism. I have more creative ways to waste time.
He'll change his position if you think he has one in a NY minute anyway.
I have never been able to tune into his rising and fabulous oratory. The substance and delivery have always struck me as insubstantial. Read "boring."
That was wonderful Bissage. Heh.
Does he ever say anything? I got a little more than half way through.
All I heard was that we have to do something and that congress has to do something and if they don't do something now, he's going to make *it* his first priority - to make them do something?... oh, and did he actually say we should bail out the auto industry or did he say something that sort of sounded like that but wasn't quite actually distinct enough.
I don't *want* the auto industry bailed out. I want them to compete or die.
And yes, boring.
And Ann, I'm surprised you didn't say anything about the framing of the video, the desk not showing and the tall chair that made him look like a squashed down little boy. I wanted to get him a booster seat! And he is a very tall man.
What struck me most about Obama's video speech was the bland background and crimped frame.
An empty, veneer panelling behind him with no pictures or window to orient the viewer, all within a frame so cropped down you could detect only so much of his entire background or environment.
A perfect metaphor for the candidate-elect Obama, no?
Stylisitically, the missive reminded me of an al Qaeda video.
Couldn't do it. Couldn't click on to hear Mr. Platypus spout platitudes.
That looks like the setting for my fourth-grade school pictures. Flag to our right, books in the background. Is there a globe somewhere in the frame?
Yes, a total bore. Who pays attention to those radio addresses anyway? I think these sorts of speeches allow politicians to tell themselves they've done something.
He looks like a very ordinary man today, and the video is very unimpressive--this is the danger of YouTube--lots, perhaps millions of more interesting and entertaining videos.
I'll be impressed with the call to sacrifice when the PeOTUS and the members of Congress step up and talk about the tangible ways in which they personally will sacrifice.
Maybe the signed basketball is a globe?
What strikes me is the contrast between this type of address and the campaign rallies of the past months. Will Obama still make speeches where he gets the crowd involved and chanting "Yes We Can!" along with him? And if not, will he lose some of the excitement and enthusiasm he generated in his followers?
Cheap wood paneling. Hokey placement of old law books. Partial US flag. Hunched speaker.
Who filmed this? Certainly not someone with any skill.
And what's he giving speeches for anyway? Isn't he the one that stressed that we only have one president at a time.
One of the rules of the working world is that when you meet your boss for the first time, if he tells you that he's not a micromanager, stand back, he will micromanage you to death. If he tells you he likes creativity from people working for him, you can be assured that he will punish you for independent thought.
Obama has told us in his first statements that there is only one president. We can rest assured that he will do his best to influence the workings of the executive branch before inauguration. Note his command to do something about the economy now or after he takes office.
It's a petty observation, but nonetheless true. This man's ego knows no bounds. I suspect that only true believers will be able to stomach his ego three years from now.
How arrogant and graceless.
Oh, well...since he wants to appear to be taking charge, hopefully, if things get worse it won't be as easy to blame what happens between his election and when he is actually our President on Bush.
Of course, if things actually get better because of something Obama actually does, I'll be happy to give him credit for it.
Oops. Skyler said it better. :)
And what's he giving speeches for anyway? Isn't he the one that stressed that we only have one president at a time.
Yes, but The Messiah is above all.
rh, yeah but: e pluribus unum. It is our motto, thought up long before Hitler.
Wasn't the motto meant to refer to the uniting of many states into one nation?
Its been ages since high school US history,
Isn't he the one that stressed that we only have one president at a time.
Yes, and apparently he regards himself as it. I assume the meeting with GWB was to tell him and the dogs to pack it up, pronto.
Maybe we can use a different title. Instead of POTUS we can call him POMPOUS.
"That looks like the setting for my fourth-grade school pictures. Flag to our right, books in the background. Is there a globe somewhere in the frame?"
Haha. Next thing you know he'll be leaning on a wagon wheel.
"Will Obama still make speeches where he gets the crowd involved and chanting "Yes We Can!" along with him?"
I certainly hope not! Have we ever had a President that led chants? That would be quite unsettling.
Oh I don't know. It was kind of amusing when Bill Clinton led the crowd in chanting "Show us your tits."
Of course maybe it wasn't appropriate for the State of the Union but what are you gonna do.
WTF is that USA Flag pin doing in the lapel of The Oneness? I thought He'd said in the past that He don't wear flag pins because our flag was a slap in the face of other nations? Same question about His having an actual USA flag near His desk.
When will His dedicated followers in Moveon.org, ANSWER, and ACORN rise up in revolt against His displaying a centrist appearance?
"When will His dedicated followers in Moveon.org, ANSWER, and ACORN rise up in revolt against His displaying a centrist appearance?"
They won't because they know it's a ruse, just like when he pretended to have religious objections to gay marriage. They know he has to lie and play Patriotic American to delude Joe and Jane Plumber in Left Cupcake, Kansas. They'll say nothing. They'd only get upset if they thought he was serious.
Obama has a choice. He can bemoan everything economic and the economy will surely fail. Or he can be a little positive and maybe it won't fail.
His first test is to learn he ain't the opposition anymore.
Wow: "His first test is to learn he ain't the opposition anymore."
What are Rev. Jesse and Rev. Al going to do when they finally realize that He's the Man now?
So many ironic opportunities coming during this next 4-years and so little free time to chat about all of it!
Of course, once His "Shirts" hit the streets, we'll all be wondering where those fabled cobblestone streets are!
My street cry is: "54 40 or fight!"
Obama has a choice. He can bemoan everything economic and the economy will surely fail. Or he can be a little positive and maybe it won't fail.
Remember, the Obamas do not give Malia and Sasha Christmas gifts because they "want to teach some limits".
So Obama is going keep talking the economy down this Christmas, and teach us all some limits.
Truly, that was not very good. I thought Democrats and especially Obama were supposed to be good at making speeches. Well, Republicans were supposed to be good at cutting spending and giving freedom to market forces....Still if Obama bores just one Democrat to death it will all be worth it.
Ann quoting Tigerhawk: "...but he did go on at length about the extent to which everything sucks..."
You know, people must be having memory wipes.
Obama has always said everything sucks in America -- until he actually had to compete with John McCain and then America had some good potential to "get back" (to where, I was never sure).
It wasn't only Michelle who thinks America is "mean" -- (until we elected her husband. And that's becasue we wanted to be fixed.)
In both the answer he gave to the little girl about why he wanted to be POTUS and to Rick Warren, he said we are mean. His answer to Warren, which no one spent much time on (too much other good material) was to the effect that his mother would get angry (maybe he said "mad") at him if he was mean.... That was his answer to a question about WHY he wanted to be POTUS! So he could make sure America wasn't mean.
So when he talks about how everything sucks -- everything about America has always sucked for BHO unless he was working a particular part of the system (mean thing that it was) to get himself a place where at least everyone else knows who Barack Obama is. He's the President (elect) of the United States of America.
There. Now no more identity crisis.
Whether he'll fix how mean the most generous country in the world is, we'll see.
It all sucks, after all.
What!!!!!!!!!!
He doesn't give his kid's Christmas gifts.
You have got to be kidding me.
You guys really know how to throw a pity party.
DUDE!!!
If he really doen't buy his kids Christmas presents he really is a communist!
"What!!!!!!!!!!
He doesn't give his kid's Christmas gifts.
You have got to be kidding me."
Nope, it's true Trooper.
"Sen. Barack Obama tells People magazine in the issue out Friday that he and his wife, Michelle, do not give Christmas or birthday presents to their two young daughters."
Sure, Garage.
But it sure wasn't a pep-rally, was it.
You know... the sun will come out, we will overcome, we will prevail, nothing can stop us, the glass is half full, it's all up from here!
He won by agreeing with everyone that the US sucks rocks but that electing him would change everything. People wanted to be *allowed* to be happy again.
Now that he won, he's adjusting expectations downward at near the speed of light.
I'm not particularly surprised since I haven't noticed, much, any liberals that seem to understand that optimism and belief drive people to try, that thinking of yourself as the "good guys" makes people want to live up to that, or even that morale is vital and the confidence of allies essential during war.
No... it's all about being intellectual and *honest*, about facing the "truth" about America and the evilness of our country in the world, of having the courage not to be Pollyanna-ish rubes.
People *want* Hope and Change. They want to be told they are good people and will pull through on pure moxy if all else fails because the conclusion is never and has never been in doubt.
It's part of what makes a good leader... the ability to inspire people to rise up to the occasion and have faith in the future and in their own abilities.
I can't get it to play, but that's the fault of either my computer or Firefox, I'm never sure which. I know if I opened IE, I could see it, but I don't feel like waiting 10 minutes for it to load up.
My fear about Obama is that he speaks in platitudes publicly, and works out all the details, all of them, behind the scenes.
I voted for him in part because he seemed interested in making policymaking more transparent. Not because I'm a goo-goo who likes transparency so I can sue people, but because I believe policy benefits through a wiki-like process that our techology now allows.
Which brings me to my current bete noire: The auto industry bailout. What a mistake that would be on every level. What a waste of hundreds of billions of dollars. What a lost opportunity to really remake the auto industry in this country. And what an awful message to send to the CEOs of other crummy businesses -- that lobbying is the best route to survival.
The people are not interested in this bailout. I'm sure the reason we're not seeing any Newsweek or Pew Trust polls on the auto bailout is they've done some initial tests and public opinion is against it by 70 percent or more. They don't want to make it too clear too soon that Obama is taking his mandate in unpopular directions.
I'm ready to sacrifice, work together, all the stuff Obama says he wants me to do. But my 401-k, despite its many ailments, is barking at me, telling me I have no business subsidizing lavish, defined benefit, early retirement-incentivizing pensions just because GM management was dumb enough to cave into UAW threats. Let the holders of those absurd promises get in line all the other creditors, and don't put a dime of it on the taxpayers.
And I should add... *even if that faith in the future is unwarranted."
Can't Obama even *smile*?
The Republicans need to play up the black Alfred E. Newman/black Jimmy Carter meme.
And then they need to come up with a better product.
Ralph Pagano for President 2012!
Man I bet he doesn't even give those poor kids a puppy.
I mean I know he didn't have a dad, but maybe we can send his some Father Knows Best or My Three Sons videos so he can learn how to act like a human being for crying out loud.
Who doesn't buy their kids Christmas gifts?
So who do we write to to demand that they not bail out Detroit?
My dear boy, Muslims do not celebrate Christmas.
It sounds like they *do* get Christmas presents from *SANTA*.
Well of course make the fat white man pay for everything. That also
serves as his tax proposal.
It sounds like they *do* get Christmas presents from *SANTA*.
The Obamas are teaching their children that there are limits to what your parents can provide you, so you must rely on an outside, unrelated source to give you what you want.
"It sounds like they *do* get Christmas presents from *SANTA*"
Well Christmas is tough for leftists. On the one hand there's the Christian Messiah and all the religious junk that goes with it, on the other side is the obese Capitalist Messiah. Both teach children wrong-thinking.
They usually end up choosing Santa because for all his associations with capitalism and racism and patriarchy and running toy sweatshops full of non-union elves and exploitation of animals, at heart he's exactly what lefties want: a magical entity that comes down the chimney (purely decorative, since burning wood is definitely not carbon neutral) and gives people stuff for free and who you only have to pretend to believe in.
I always felt sorry for Santa.
I mean he only comes once a year, and that's down a chimney.
Only humorless scolds would deny their kids presents under the tree.
How sad if the story is true and accurate.
Yeah but he comes down millions and millions of chimney in one night!
I guess it's ok to say that Santa bought the presents. I feel a lot better now after I actually read the article.
But don't girls get to buy him an Old Spice after shave kit with the cologne and the aftershave. They can buy their mom an Avon gift set with perfume and lip stick and stuff. That's traditional man.
Well AJ, he must have a whole lot saved up if he has to wait for once a year.
What's up with Mrs. Klaus? She looks like a goer.
Don't buy it, troop.
He wouldn't be such a jolly old elf if it were once a year.
With apologies to rhhardin, I think Obama's motto should be "E pluribus anus".
Wow. That is a lot of hostility after your guy screwed up for 8 years while etc. civil liberties etc. torture etc. squandered 9-11 good will etc. Don't you think Obama deserves a chance to try without your pathological venom? Guess not.
Ann, how can you stand these people?
One of the things I expect from Obama is that he will inspire us to rise above our parochial needs and achieve something as a nation. This is not his greatest effort, but it is the idea.
"But my 401-k, despite its many ailments, is barking at me"
Don't worry. They have plans that will result in you not having to hear the barking anymore.
"your guy screwed up for 8 years while etc. civil liberties etc. torture etc."
I see you've not been following the news the past couple of days.
It's awful. It would be funny if it wasn't so goddam tragic - and leaning towards scary.
How do you feel about bailing out Detroit, Skaus?
Bad, bad idea.
Wow. That is a lot of hostility after your guy screwed up for 8 years
Well, now, you're assuming W was "our guy". I didn't vote for him.
Ann did, and I didn't notice any self loathing.
while etc. civil liberties etc. torture etc. squandered 9-11 good will etc.
Some of us reject the "etc" narrative. I know of no one who lost any real civil liberties, except over BCRA.
I'd also be willing to bet there was torture under Clinton, and there will be torture under Obama. In any event, three cases of waterboarding are not foremost on my mind.
Don't you think Obama deserves a chance to try without your pathological venom? Guess not.
Apparently W didn't deserve any vacation from the pathological venom that began on November 8, 2000, and has continued unabated ever since.
I predict that Obama's continuation of the very practices condemned by W's enemies will be met with apologism and outright praise for O's "pragmatism" as the hostess has it.
The President Elect is entitled to all the respect and deference that was show President Bush upon his election and not one ounce more.
Its not going to be pretty as he seems to be a really thin skinned pompous jerk.
"You're likeable enough Hillary."
"I don't want to get into a Nancy Reagan thing here."
"They have to stop clinging to their guns and their religion."
"She was a typical white person."
Yes it is going to be an interesting four years. He is indeed a wordsmith.
It sounds like they *do* get Christmas presents from *SANTA*.
Phew. I have been hanging on to the fact that Obama looks like he's a great dad as some proof that he's human, and does have some warmth and some (non-scary) convictions in him somewhere.
Well, anyway we've narrowed it down. Obama is smart only behind the scenes.
"One of the things I expect from Obama is that he will inspire us to rise above our parochial needs and achieve something as a nation."
Like overthrow 2 evil dictatorships? Something like that?
Overthrowing dictatorships, restoring the right for girls to attend school and the right for women to train as health-workers in a country where, previously, women were banned from education and banned from being treated by male doctors, and elections and democracy only *count* if they're accomplished with fairy-dust.
There are other things, though. There is what the US has done in Africa, which gets no news time. There is also our good reputation in India, which is quite probably more important than our reputation in Europe. India just put a probe on the moon, after all.
Who IS this guy and what have they done with our messiah? That's not the CHANGE I want to hear. And where's the HOPE? Where's my PONY?
Is it just my monitor or is his head really not centered in the frame? I find that unsettling - like he's on BloggingHeads and can't get out of his head long enough to see the image he's transmitting. I half expected him to take a swig from a bottle of Mountain Dew halfway through.
we are just finishing up 8 years of a president whose speeches rarely reflected reality. you guys loved that shit, eh? never boring, although painful to watch from an English language point of view, but look where we are now.
This site has to have some of the most shallow and least intellectual contributors on the internet.
Obama's very first comments to America, before he's even been sworn in as Presidnet, and we've already got Ann and her sycophant fools ranting, raving and of course whining (their specialty).
What a bunch fucking poor losers.
Keep up the "tu quoques". See how far it gets you.
Woohoo! The German Valise makes an appearance!
Tell me what will Obama ask us to give up ? What will Obama help us to achieve as a nation?
How long will it take Obama to restore civil rights to those like Joe the Plumber whose rights were violated by at least 6 state agencies?
How long will it take Obama to restore civil rights to those like Joe the Plumber whose rights were violated by at least 6 state agencies?
We're at war. A different kind of war.
Very true. But now you are on defense.
HULK SMASH!
Garage:
You do nuance gooder than any other liberal I know.
Can I assume aj the dickwad and others here already have their advance orders in for Joe The Plumber's upcoming book?
Boy, I bet it's really, really good.
*aj...I've asked this before, but...do you even know what a valise is? And as for the German context...you might want to explain that to everybody, too.
Little minds...
Come on! Surely a smart little schmuckerooni like you can figure it out.
Here's a hint for you!
Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! ... Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
aj, your profile says you're over 50, but I find that hard to believe.
You sound more like a little kid.
I suggest you consider reading more and talking less.
Ahhh, and now palladian, the overweight pud who fancies himself an artist rears his uninformed and ugly head:
Your German is almost as bad as aj's intellect.
Palladian:
I don't know what you said but I still LOL.
I suggest you consider reading more and talking less, Gene.
Maybe try one of your psychology books.
AJ...
palladian, I'm afraid you've got me confused with someone else, I have absolutely no idea what the fuck you're talking about...and as for Python, I appreciate any association.
You two can't possibly be this dumb.
Lose some weight and get back to me.
Palladian:
A Gottdammerung classic!
"Like overthrow 2 evil dictatorships? Something like that?"
Yup. George W.'s exactly like FDR that way.
Except for the part where he wrecked the global order rather than build it and the part where he got the world to hate us instead of looking up to and respecting us.
Minor details, I'm sure, especially to the wing-nuts who prefer their politics as overdramatized as possible.
Oh yeah, and polarizing the nation for the shortest of short-term and ill-begotten political gains was a pretty inspiring achievement too. Forgot about that one.
"Global order"?
Is that when the UN gets takeout?
Not that I would ever think of questioning your skills as the consumate neoconservative master-diplomat, or anything, AJ, but if you want to dissolve the UN or consign it to irrelevance, you'd better be prepared to figure out how to organize your alliances. Perhaps that would take a better "strategery" than you've divulged here. But I'm sure Henry Kissinger's already aware of whatever brilliant plans you've drawn up.
Hush everyone, I hear the Obama Shirts marching down the street signing their anthem: The Diana Oughton Lied. It's such a sad song, about Obama's hero dying for the cause.
They look so nattily dressed in their Hawaiian Blue shirts with Powder Blue Berets and the rainbow "O" emblems on their shirts.
Michael, is that you out in front, cheering them onward?
squandered 9-11 good will
In the litany of Dread Bush Blunders, this is the most psychologically revealing.
People who thought the "good will" after 9/11 was something of value that could have been retained are in thrall of being a victim. Me, I hate being a victim. Even when I'm a victim, I try to wriggle out of it as fast as I can.
But some people really aren't fulfilled unless someone else is feeling sorry for them.
The way Bush could have avoided squandering all that yummy post-9/11 good will would have been to assert that some principles were of greater importance than protecting the lives of our citizens, and thereby proudly endured more attacks, persuading the citizens our suffering was noble.
Except for the part where he wrecked the global order rather than build it and the part where he got the world to hate us instead of looking up to and respecting us.
Two responses. First, read "The Prince." Secondly, evidence please? Particularly the "wrecked the global order" claim. What does that even mean? You're talking about his Dad's "new world order?" As far as I know, all the alliances that existed before 2000 still exist. We are still trading up a storm with Europe and Asia and helping in their defense. We haven't seen one military base closed at the request of a government that used to love us but now hates us. The Brits were our strongest allies before W, and they remain so, fighting alongside us in Iraq. What countries are you referring to? Keep in mind, in the last few years, candidates who were accused of being too close to the US won election in a number of countries, including France.
Don't cite polls -- that's just the result of manipulating public opinion via the foreign media which, to be sure, does hate us. Describe how this asinine allegation has any basis in reality -- some tangible change.
If there is "hate" of the US at this moment, it has more to do with Congress' refusal to pass fairly negotiated trade pacts with several Latin American countries. This is at the behest of labor-owned Democrats in Congress. I never hear anyone apologize for that, but that's clearly the biggest international embarrassment of our times.
To paraphrase William Blake quoting Numbers XI: Would to God that all the Lord's Democrats were John Stodders.
Here's a prime example of how flat out dumb AJ is:
AJ Lynch said...
"Global order"?
Is that when the UN gets takeout?
No understanding of the U.N., no historical knowledge of America's dependence on worldwide cooperation for military and economic success.
Crayons anyone?
palladian: "...all the Lord's Democrats..."
...are in control.
Did you miss the election...or did you just not vote?
I bet you didn't.
stodder: "People who thought the "good will" after 9/11 was something of value that could have been retained are in thrall of being a victim."
Another fucking moron.
The world was with us, you diot. It's when we basically told them to go fuck themselves, we're doing whatever we want...that they abandoned us.
What is with some here who don't understand how important it is for America's allies to support us???
And you wonder why McCain got his ass handed to him???
old grouchy dolt: Are you asking me if I'm "signing" or "singing?"
Duh.
Thank you to John for pointing out that the "good will" after 9-11 was pity, it was sympathy.
To *retain* that, we have to suffer continual loss.
As for our allies.
Obama is already squandering what we've got... making unclear statements to Poland about what they can expect, and pissing off India by saying he's going to fix their Kasmir problem.
The problem *now* isn't that we don't have allies... it's that our best allies are not white Europeans.
German Valise:
But my SAT scores were higher than Obama's. Cause I went to high school in Colorado.
Wait a minute. Why would that be a problem, if our best allies were "not white?"
Michael, you try hard but remain a complete idiot; must be a congenital condition.
BTW: You spelled idiot as "diot" cute, eh; use spell check!
Did you pass second grade? You don't know that cheering a group onward may assume many different forms and I didn't specify how you were trying to lead your pack of fools.
BTW once again: "Lied" is Deutsche (German for you!) for song!
Please crawl back into your Socialist hole and suck your little thumb!
What a maroon!
Michael --
"This site has to have some of the most shallow and least intellectual contributors on the internet."
That didn't happen in this thread until post 6:58PM.
...if you want to dissolve the UN or consign it to irrelevance, you'd better be prepared to figure out how to organize your alliances.
The UN, through incompetence and corruption, has consigned itself to irrelevancy.
As for organizing alliances, we still do it the way it has always been done, with bilateral or multilateral treaties.
Whether it is NAFTA, CAFTA, NATO, or mutual defense treaties, alliances have and always will be pursued between nations with or without the UN.
In short, the UN is not a necessity for the US or any other country. Every nation uses the organization when it is politically advantageous to do so, and they ignore the UN when it is necessary or expedient to do so.
Meade, it's because non-European allies are invisible.
Everyone seems to care what Europeans think. Starting when the complaint was that Bush was too loud, too gauche, too... unsophisticated. The obnoxious American you pretended not to know in the fancy restaurant.
India and China (and central Asia, possibly) will continue to be increasingly important.
Ugh... too much editing...
I think that our relations with Africa and Asia and East Asia are more important *now* than getting love from Europeans.
What happened to the hopey changey guy?
synova: And another fucking dolt has its say: "Obama is already squandering what we've got..."
Yeah.
"What we've got..."
C'mon, you can't be this dense...
Oli-Oli-Oxen-Free says: Nada.
AJ / Palladian: "Valise bumst mich."
There are few people who can pull of calling others shallow and, in the same conversation, criticizing them for being overweight.
Michael comes here to accuse people here of being "some of the most shallow and least intellectual contributors on the internet."
He then proves it by criticizing those commenters for their weight.
C'mon, give the guy some slack. He's in his first real job, OK? Hasn't even started it, to be precise. Of course he's going to sound inept. How good were you when at 18 or 21 or so you first went to work?
My first real job involved shoveling dirt at the mines, and it was a lot simpler than being POTUS and leader of the (sorta) free world, and I fouled up a few times. Cut him some slack! In 30-40 years he'll have the hang of things.
to continue in Bissage's vein (jugular): link
"Investments" means "taxes" friends.
bb
Dave Hardy said:
"Cut him some slack! In 30-40 years he'll have the hang of things."
We can only hope!
He says Congress must do something. Isn't he a member of the Senate? The Senate is only 100people. Can't he make an impact? He said two years ago that he couldn't think of running for President because he didn't even know where the men's room was in the Senate. Maybe he is too ashamed to admit taht he still doesn't know his way around the Senate. Why start now to be a Senator.
Office of the President Elect?
WTF?
He looks like he's giving the statement in my grandparents utility room.
"What is with some here who don't understand how important it is for America's allies to support us???"
Well we found out our "allies" were opposing us in Iraq because they were being paid off by Saddam. In fact the entire UN is a slush fund.
Let's see how our allies respond to our request to increase their defense spending and upping the ante in Afghanistan.
Let do lunch in a year and a half.
jdeeripper--
RE: Ralph Pagano for President 2012!
Hey I knew Ralph Pagano. He was on the Reading (Pennsylvania) School Board briefly back in the 1980s, but I knew him better as our school janitor.
Everytime I passed him in hall, he'd smile and say "hey doll."
Nice guy, but terrible politician. I think he might have even run for mayor.
TRundgren said..."Well we found out our "allies" were opposing us in Iraq because they were being paid off by Saddam. In fact the entire UN is a slush fund."
What in the world are you talking about?
Are you drunk or just plain dumb?
TRundgren said...: "...upping the ante in Afghanistan..."
You must mean where we should have concentrated out efforts in the first place?
Right now: 10 BILLION A MONTH in Iraq.
Do you get newspapers or books in your neck of the woods?
And the high-pitched WHINE continues.
Obama won...McCain and dumbshit lost.
Deal with it.
Michael sagte: Valise bumst mich
Ehrlich? im Arschloch? hat sie dir nicht weh getan?
Michael
You seem very sure of global opinion before and shortly after 9/11. I'm just wondering -- have you ever lived outside of the US?
I have. In the last 20 years I have lived in London, Tokyo, Singapore, Toronto and Vancouver; and worked in many, many more.
Global attitudes to the US during the Bush administration are pretty well unchanged. They marched in the millions against Reagan remember.
The world will never "look up to America." It's not in the cultural DNA of any nation to look up to a powerful country. It's the same all over the world: NZ and Oz, Korea and its neighbours, Singapore and hers, etc.
The most a powerful country can expect of its neighbors is to be grudgingly respected, and that's basically what the US has today.
America gives an awful lot to the world and gets much less in return. That many in the world remain resentful of the US is really a problem they need to deal with, not a problem the US should alleviate by getting down on bowed knee.
Wow! This is the last time I post a comment on Althorse on a Saturday evening. A lot of people with more time on their hands than I did at this late weekend hour.
That said, I think John Stodder's response is a bit more well-reasoned than the typical boilerplate offered by the other ditto-heads, and deserves response.
Look, I know what Machiavelli's about. I went through all the same motions as the arguments you're echoing here demand back when the neocons had credibility. This is not about denying that the United States and every other nation - and every other organization - act out of self-interest. Nor is it a denial that they will cooperate with us out of that same self-interest regardless of how our actions in other regards are perceived abroad. But the fact of the matter is that no one can tell whether or not the intervention in Iraq was a mistake at this point or not. Even W. says ya gotta wait 50 years b'fore histr'y can judge it. He knows that much. So before we go on an ego spree about how our position in the world is just as strong as it was before, let's admit that the cost-benefit analysis from setting the precedent of pre-emptively invading sovereign nations, contributing to the sentiments that spur terrorism, and the like is far from settled.
We can each cite evidence until the cows come home. Until then, I'm not sure that either one of us are experts on this. Perhaps it's fallacious to appeal to authority in an argument, but sometimes it's all people have to go on. To that effect, I'll take what Francis Fukuyama has to say about hindsight any day. Until then, I'd appreciate it if people would separate their base feelings (which apply equally to "we're making them hate us more" as they do to "we're really awesome for spreading democracy!") from arguments and analyses that most historians are uncomfortable siding with you on.
Oh, and diplomacy does matter. I don't think even Machiavelli would disagree with that. Bush's lack of social skills may not bring the world to a standstill, but like the other numerous tools missing in his incredibly limited skill-set, it sure doesn't help.
The road ahead will be long and hard...
He keeps saying that.
Hey John - your reference to The Prince has inspired me to go back over its precepts. I'm especially enjoying the parts about avoiding flatterers in your advisors (or as critics of the Bush administration would call them: "Yes Men"), the part about being both loved and feared, and the part where he advises against hiring mercenaries.
Very relevant lessons to The Decider.
Still, I don't see how The Prince should be revered as some Holy Grail of leadership and politics. Others have had as much to say about these matters subsequently.
You can believe that goodwill abroad didn't suffer under Bush if you want to. The obvious and abysmal sense of approval of him at home isn't something that Machiavelli would have looked upon very highly.
And I'll have to disagree with the notion that goodwill obtained initially from sympathy can only be maintained by retaining sympathy.
Unless I'm terribly mistaken, John Stodder is a Democrat/liberal who voted for Obama.
As for the rest...
At least armies are honest when it comes to violating sovereignty. Obama has made numerous statements about what he's going to do to fix other countries problems. India is wondering how much of a pest he's going to be, and Poland is pissed because after years of being one of our best allies, Obama is sending mixed signals. Pakistan, well... bold statements that they'd better do what you want or else, hardly makes friends.
I doubt that the usual suspects see any more problem with this than with his calls for a civilian security force the same magnitude as the US military, with the same budget and organization, (to do what?) and his talk about volunteer requirements for high school and college graduation.
People who care about sovereignty, otoh, the personal sort or the national sort, are looking at the guy and thinking to themselves, "Who the fark made You the boss of Me?"
John Stodder said- The people are not interested in this bailout. I'm sure the reason we're not seeing any Newsweek or Pew Trust polls on the auto bailout is they've done some initial tests and public opinion is against it by 70 percent or more. They don't want to make it too clear too soon that Obama is taking his mandate in unpopular directions.
Doesn't this collusion bother Obama supporters? Is it just accepted and ho-hum?
Blogger Ann Althouse said...
"One of the things I expect from Obama is that he will inspire us to rise above our parochial needs and achieve something as a nation."
Like overthrow 2 evil dictatorships? Something like that?
6:01 PM
Ann, remind me sometime to tell you what "grimy" means in Italian gangster slang. This comment was grimy.
How could you a) think like this, b) vote and advocate Obama, c) be surprised at him and his followers?
I detect whoredom in it, or at best some rather empty advocatus diaboli. It would really be impolitic to expound further unless you care to explain yourself.
Hey, you guys elected these lawyers. They're doing all that lawyers can do, being mentally and morally shackled to mediocrity as lawyers are: They're talking. It's all they are superficially good at, but when you peer beneath the surface, you find that there's no there there. Just gutless cowards who hide behind the skirts of the law.
Seen enough? To bad so sad, because you have over four years of this drivel to look forward to... and Biden has yet to begin speaking. HA!
I don't guess people will ever learn that lawyers are the lowest form of functional human life and have no business running anything, much less a country.
> Oh, and diplomacy does matter.
Oh really?
Name three times that a country did something that was not in its perceived self-interest because of "friendship", "diplomacy", or any reason.
Since that doesn't happen, you get to argue that "diplomacy" affects perceived self-interest - good luck with that.
The Euros are pissy because they feel safe. When they figure out that Obama might let the Russians have them, they'll be friendly.
Blogger montana urban legend said...
"Like overthrow 2 evil dictatorships? Something like that?"
Yup. George W.'s exactly like FDR that way.
- I'm glad we agree, and that he didn't wait as long as FDR to get into the war.
Except for the part where he wrecked the global order rather than build it
- You don't understand. The world order was a rotting corpse animated by strings pulled from various capitols and financial centers.
- The genius of the Bush Administration was in realizing at once, perhaps in those seven much-mocked minutes while reading My Pet Goat to the kids, that the status quo was in fact unsustainable. President Bush hit the reset button on the Middle East, which was long past due. Like we should prop it up instead?
- Do you think that merely going into AF and the border regions, and even let's say getting OBL and his top three guys, would have ended the war? Is that your big idea? Plus some The Unit-style global bug-hunting? Just a yes or no would suffice, but feel free to elaborate.
- Oh, and if we had put all the resources of OIF into Afghanistan, do you think we'd be a) farther ahead, b) done, c) not embroiled in a wider war at the very freaking end of our global reach, d) more or less pleased with the casualties?
and the part where he got the world to hate us instead of looking up to and respecting us.
- Children always hate the icky medicine. Every innovator is hated by the mundanes. If Bush is "An Enemy Of The People," more honor to him. Obama will give us all a nice warm bath.
Minor details, I'm sure, especially to the wing-nuts who prefer their politics as overdramatized as possible.
8:05 PM
- You know, since I generally don't use words like "moonbats," I feel conversationally naked. May I ask you to be so kind as to try to avoid epithets, or should I take my measures? You see, this is at the very heart of how I think uncivil conversation poisons the debate.
Frankly it would be quite accurate to replace your word "moonbats" with "people." It would be even more true. But it would be less useful to you. Is that your standard?
Blogger montana urban legend said...
Oh yeah, and polarizing the nation for the shortest of short-term and ill-begotten political gains was a pretty inspiring achievement too. Forgot about that one.
8:08 PM
- Umm...two to tango? Do you really mean to pretend that Bush started it?
BTW Monty (montana urban legend, if you prefer), I hit you back on the thread where we talked civilized vs polite society.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6329595&postID=4879798949308586609&page=1
"What is with some here who don't understand how important it is for America's allies to support us???"
I'm not sure who you're talking about, but the question isn't whether allies and world opinion are important. Of course they are. The question is how the US goes about gaining this support.
Despite his many blunders and deficiencies, the Bush Administration managed to retain, at a minimum, the ability to work with the intelligence forces of Europe's major powers, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Russia, Indonesia, Australia and more. From what I can tell, most of those relationships were enhance during this period. That is the true post-9/11 esteem that matters -- that these varied countries, not all of them "allies" in the traditional sense, thought it was a good idea to work with us to smash up Al Queda and other Islamic fanatic terrorist networks.
As someone said above, we couldn't crack through Saddam's bought and paid for support from France and Russia, but nonetheless received substantial support in Iraq from the UK, Poland, Australia and other countries. Snark-meisters talk about how few soldiers some of those countries sent. In a typical lack of logic, they overlook that most of these countries have very small armed forces. Indeed, most European countries have abysmally small armed forces and are nearly defenseless. Who fills in for what their taxpayers don't want to pay for? We do. If Bush had ruined our alliances and destroyed our international reputations as is so often claimed, these countries would be arming themselves, enlisting more soldiers, and working assiduously to stop depending on the US. Or they would be looking to ally themselves militarily with Russia or China. None of that is happening.
As someone pointed out, I am a dem. Liberal in some, not all areas. Certainly at odds with the Democrats' current policies when it comes to foreign policy and defense, although (in a strange kind of tribute) Obama hasn't really called for significant change in homeland security, the military or intelligence. Other than the nebulous and buzzwordy promise to consult with allies more, his real difference with Bush in these areas is historic. He wouldn't have started the "dumb war" with Iraq. Okay. Good to know. My theory on Obama and Iraq is that he was lucky enough to be a state senator, not a US senator, from a very liberal district, and not a state like New York, North Carolina, Connecticut or Delaware, where some folks have a higher opinion of the US military. That luck translated into him having the ability to point a finger at his Democratic rivals, to distinguish himself from the field. By the time of the general election, he wasn't talking about Iraq much at all anymore, and he had become rather spongy on Iraq. That sponginess permitted me to vote for him, along with the fact that by the time he takes office, the war will be so close to won that it would be political suicide for Obama to reverse field.
Look, while I think the alleged damage Bush did to the US reputation is grossly exaggerated and contradicted by the relevant facts, I also happen to think Obama will be good for the US brand. He is a far better articulater of US values than Bush. I believe in his essential moderateness, and I believe he knows that the pose of moderation is why he was elected. He does not want to be associated with the Michael mindset -- it would cripple his presidency. But my vote was given warily, and was as much of a statement of my disgust with the Republican party in general these days, and with McCain's lack of aptitude for the job.
For me, Obama really is the "hope" candidate. I hope I didn't make a mistake. I hope he's as politically skilled as he seems. I hope the good will outweigh the bad. And I hope he's not dumb enough to give into the unions on the automotive bailout and card check. Clinton maintained his high approval ratings by avoiding economically damaging policies and embracing growth. Obama would be well advised to study that example.
Where's my PONY?
LOL
if you want to dissolve the UN or consign it to irrelevance, you'd better be prepared to figure out how to organize your alliances.
There is this li'l thing called NATO. And the UN has nothing, NOTHING to do with "alliances."
I'm especially enjoying the parts about avoiding flatterers in your advisors (or as critics of the Bush administration would call them: "Yes Men")
I think Bush's problem was something like the opposite--he had (mistaken) loyalty to some advisors/employees who didn't deserve it. The war went so poorly in Iraq for so long precisely because he stuck by his military advisors who kept saying "we don't need more troops." He only abandoned their advice when things became dire.
Rumsfeld, by all accounts, was around way too long. Scott McClellan was hardly a "Yes-Man, " and did (I think) considerable damage as Press Secretary because he obviously had no taste for being disliked by the press.
And I don't need to point out that Powell was never a yes-man. He and his contingent obviously differed with Bush on Iraq. That's how Bush ended up with that asshole Armitage who made us all suffer through the Plame affair, when he could have spoken up and ended it all right away.
The great thing about President Bush's speeches is that they were generally strong. President Bush is not the most fluid speaker, but he believes in American exceptionalism; plus, he generally told us what he was going to do and did it. If you go all the way back to his early speeches, you have a man who is being honest and forthright with the American people. He told us what we would hear, and he told us there was stuff we would never find out cuz that's the nature of the business. The people who say that President Bush has lied to us for the past 8, they are the liars. Never once has President Bush given us the kind of vague, simplistic, diarrhoeal mush to which Obama has subjected us and will subject you all (I don't listen to him; I can't. His voice irritates the heck out of me.) over the next 3.5 year.
"But my 401-k, despite its many ailments, is barking at me"
Don't worry. They have plans that will result in you not having to hear the barking anymore.
Would Obama, Dems Kill 401(k) Plans?
You will get a govenment gurantee plan, just like the unfunded social security.
How do you feel about bailing out Detroit, Skaus?
Bad, bad idea.
How do you feel about....ta da.... American Express?
They are all lining up at the trough Washington's $5 Trillion Tab
Y'all know that rockin' country song "What Was I Thinkin'"? That's Obama now that he has won the election. Scrunched down? The dude doesn't have a clue about jack besides making our bloody lives miserable. He's got a dim as hell view of America and it comes out when he prates on.
Don't blame me. I voted Palin-McCain.
I used to be an English language teacher in another incarnation out west, and apart from a few mangled pronunciations, no malapropisms though, President Bush was a plain orator. What the hell, we need Shakespeare for a president? Since when is smooth delivery of find sounding phrases requisite for the office? Since when is it an indicator of character and intelligence? Y'all ever heard of talking loud and saying nothing? So President Bush said a few uhs and exhibited discomfort before the mike. So what? Y'all ever listened to the great métis hope? Gol-lee!!! And he's supposed to be smart!
Give me a plain speaking man any day of the week. I know where I stand with him. He says what he means and means what he says. Ask Poland, Russia, Israel, and the Arabs if they can say that about Obama.
You who like fluidly delivered but meaningless words, enjoy yourselves for the next 3.5 years.
John Stodder wrote: "I also happen to think Obama will be good for the US brand. He is a far better articulater of US values than Bush. I believe in his essential moderateness, and I believe he knows that the pose of moderation is why he was elected. "
Dude!!! What are you smokin'?
When has Obama ever articulated US values? He thinks America is the pits! His wife says it. His pastor says "G-d d*mn America!". His friends hate America. His friend bombed America. He thinks the Constitution sucks. What American values has Obama ever articulated?
Just get out of California, dude!
Okay, +5 on the Mad Magainze reference that's not in the picture.
Oh well, Nichevo. Since appearances and assertions without evidence are so important to you (both here and in the other thread), I'll choose to let you believe you have taken pwnership of what's been discussed here. To do anything less might threaten your proud sense of membership in the George W. Superfantastic Neoconservative Fan Club.
So go ahead and be as "uncivil" as you like. I mean, I'm not so sure that it's your conversational style that's keeping a green technology engineer like yourself from becoming the next American Enterprise Institute fellow to not follow in the footsteps of Robert Kagan, Fukuyama, and the other acolytes of your imagination. But at least their ideas were new and interesting when we first started hearing them over and over again five years ago. Recycling may be your speciality, but it's not the point of reasoned discourse - especially when most of those who did a much better job peddling their BS when it mattered have since addressed criticisms to it that you don't know how to allow for.
I'm always amused when an engineer proclaims himself an expert on human affairs.
Trooper wanted to know: "Who doesn't buy their kids Christmas gifts?"
Answer: Jehovah's Witnesses don't give Christmas or birthday gifts; Muslims don't give Christmas gifts. Many Jews don't give kids Christmas gifts, but then they self-consciously give lots of Chanukah gifts. Did he tell relatives and friends not to give too? How mean and Scroogy.
Do the Obama's celebrate Kwanzaa?
My original point was that there is value in having an inspirational leader rather than a oafish, plodding speaker as President. I'm sure you see the value in football pep talks or Anthony Robbins types or preachers. How is it satisfactory for the President just to project bluster?
On another point, thank God there are lawyers in charge again. The nonsense from Addington and Yoo was profoundly illegal and these business types have absolutely no basis to know that, not that they cared. This Administration may not have been saying "God damn America," but its attitude and actions have completely disrespected the foundation of our governmental system.
And finally, I did enjoy the humor of the commenter who implied that the civility problem on this site is the use of the term "wing-nut."
so montana, it is as I sispected; you cannot function deprived of your playbook of personalization. since you choose to misunderstand me deliberately, let me not waste your time with clarification. you are what you are and I am what I am, eh? btw my specialty is energy conservation & envt' control.
Skaus,
I agree that having an inspirational leader is good. It's one of the definitions of "leader".
So why is Obama trying so hard to be a downer? Where is the confident smile that goes with the statement that it's going to be hard? The "You can't keep America down, because you guys *rock*" that goes with the "we all have to work together?"
The Diana Oughton song, just for all you non-believers; for shame!
Diana Oughton Song Lyrics
(a.k.a. Flags Raised Skyward)
Flags raised, marchers aligned
Onward we Blue Shirts progress noisily
Comrades shot by the Reds, wounded mended
Forward march with her spirit in our ranks
The way is free for our Blues
The way is free for our Forces
Millions hoping looking upward
Our new day breaks for Him and Her
Now the call is made our bugle blown
For us the struggle continues
Soon our victory shall be clear
Slaves no more the enemy gone
Flags raised, marchers aligned
We march silently strong steps
Comrades shot by the Reds, wounded mended
March to the end, we shall prevail
All hail The Messiah she never met
Her yearning unfulfilled then
The blast was meant for another
Changed now with hope for all
BTW, montana, your syntax is so twisted I half doubt that even you know what you mean. It's a pity you never had a friend in your youth who would smack you upside the head whenever you spoke in circles. You'd be the better for it.
And it's a pity that your engineer-mind is too angular and linear to determine how your head got stuck up your posterior, Nichevo.
But your model for friendship explains a lot.
Now why don't you kindly remove your sad loneliness from everyone's sight so that the thread can die a merciful death, as it was intended?
Oh, cowboy, so you want the last word! Well, go ahead. Actually you wrote something not too bad on another post above so drop it - dead'un. Soon this will drop off the front page of althouse anyway.
(My friend was also fond of scatological metaphors. He had memorized one quip in Italian which I never quite caught but which he translated as "Remove the cork!" But "head up my ass," good one, novel, profit. You betcha!)
I guess the Cook's tour version of my earlier point was: obscenity and calumny narrow the mind, obstruct the flow of real thought. They become as binding as cliches (c.v. Orwell, Politics and the English Language) to the mind. When used intensively enough they assume the status of "Uh."
Oh and he loved to evade coming to the point, just like you. It was fun to drag him back to it, by the nose. And of course he was the better for it. If you can't come to the point in 25 words or less, why speak? Don't get me wrong, I loved him, but it was a tough love ;>
(private joke omitted)
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