Althouse: "They possess sufficient mental faculties and emotional life to justify their inclusion in the community of equals."

২৬ এপ্রিল, ২০০৬

"They possess sufficient mental faculties and emotional life to justify their inclusion in the community of equals."

"They" being apes. (Via Memeorandum.)

৪০টি মন্তব্য:

Icepick বলেছেন...: Does this mean when they catch the perps in this case we'll have to put them on trial? And will they be treated as adults, or "the same as those of minors and the mentally handicapped of our species."

The good news is that since it happened in Sierra Leone, we don't have to worry about this becoming a case for the Supreme Court to review.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৮:৩৪ AM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: I guess that means they get the right to vote, too. That should be interesting.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৮:৩৬ AM
Bruce Hayden বলেছেন...: The 98.4% same DNA claim, while technically true, is somewhat misleading. A lot of the shared DNA is "junk" DNA, that doesn't seem to have any real use, or falls into the category of DNA shared by all mammels. If we were to eliminate all that, my memory is that we would probably only be sharing some 75%-80% with the chimps.

But, interestingly, their claim does have some validity. Chimps and Pygmy Chimps are closer to us genetically than many other species within a common genus. Thus, the claim, in a book titled "The Third Chimpanzee" by Jared Diamond, that we should be considered the third chimp species (or, more accurately, they should be considered two more species under the genus "Homo", given the precedent that the first named genus prevails).; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৮:৫৮ AM
Bruce Hayden বলেছেন...: And, sorry Ann, but this is more evidence that we really do have a significant animal nature, given the amount of shared chimp DNA.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৯:০০ AM
Bruce Hayden বলেছেন...: Final thought for awhile - this isn't really a reason for concern, except from a slippery slope perspective, because even if all apes were given the vote, it wouldn't really matter much, because most, if not all, of the othe ape species are dying off thanks to the actions of the dominent ape species, us.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৯:০৩ AM
Ann Althouse বলেছেন...: What's the problem with giving apes the vote? They won't exercise their right.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৯:২৩ AM
Freeman Hunt বলেছেন...: Bah. We were just figuring out where to put pre-op transsexuals who go to jail, and now along come the apes.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৯:২৫ AM
MadisonMan বলেছেন...: Did anyone else do a double-take when reading the headline, and accidentally read 'Sociologists' for 'Socialists'?

I take it the Spanish Socialist party is trying to become (more of?) a laughing stock by introducing this bill. But I guess if they wrap up the Ape vote, maybe they can get an extra seat in Parliament. Apes may not vote on their own, Ann, but I'm sure the socialists can bus them to the polling places.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৯:৪১ AM
A.J. Romens বলেছেন...: I think we should treat chimps as equals, giving them the right to vote, the right to free speech, etc. We should also prosecute them when they commit crimes.

It is all part of my plan to ensure that all the chimps in the world are eventually locked away in prisons or mental institutions.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৯:৪৩ AM
P_J বলেছেন...: "The PSOE's justification is that humans share 98.4% of our genes with chimpanzees, 97.7% with gorillas, and 96.4% with orangutans."

Yes, and we share 100% of our DNA with fetal humans. How about including them in the community of equals and affording them "the same protection as minors and the mentally handicapped"?; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৯:৪৪ AM
P_J বলেছেন...: Dear Abby,

You're not going to believe this, but I've found a woman who is 98.5% exactly like my wife! They look alike, they laugh at the same jokes - everything! Weird, huh?

Well, here's my question: Since they're so close in so many ways, do you think it would be okay if I treat this other woman exactly as if she were my wife? I'd like to take her on dates, sleep with her, use her checkbook, celebrate "our" anniversary together. I know some people will probable be close-minded about it, but since this other woman is so remarkably like my wife, don't you think this would be okay? I really like her.

Sincerely,
Confused in Portland; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৯:৪৯ AM
Ann Althouse বলেছেন...: AJ: Excellent point. Animals -- nonhuman animals -- are the worst criminals on the face of the earth. Stealing, raping, murdering -- nothing is beyond their evil, evil minds. Call 911!; ২৬/৪/০৬, ১০:০৪ AM
SippicanCottage বলেছেন...: এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।; ২৬/৪/০৬, ১০:২৮ AM
Smilin' Jack বলেছেন...: Merely recognizing them as equals is hardly enough. The effects of countless millenia of speciesist oppression must be overcome. We must institute ape affirmative action programs, integrate them into our housing, and bus them into our schools. And then there's the matter of reparations....; ২৬/৪/০৬, ১১:২২ AM
Al Maviva বলেছেন...: Pumpkins, h3ll. Fruitflies are roughly 93% human by DNA composition. That's more than my brother-in-law.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ১১:৪১ AM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: Another step closer to the abyss by Western civilization....; ২৬/৪/০৬, ১২:০৩ PM
MaxedOutMama বলেছেন...: Isn't it awfully humano-centric to grant rights to animal species based on the percentage of DNA that they share with us?

I think this is terribly politically incorrect. Some advanced thinkers like Peter Singer should go over there and bring them up to date.

Do apes really want equal rights in Europe? Given the trend toward euthanasia for those humans with a poor "quality of life", I would think they might be put down on the basis that they'll have short, animal-like lives!

Thanks for the laugh, Ann!; ২৬/৪/০৬, ১:০৯ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: I can't let the cat see this article...; ২৬/৪/০৬, ১:৩৫ PM
bearbee বলেছেন...: What the heck, it's another tax base....

Now we need a political party symbol....hmmm....donkey, elephant. Nope already been done. Need something that walks upright....hmmm.....; ২৬/৪/০৬, ১:৩৭ PM
Tibore বলেছেন...: " The chimpanzee, the gorilla, and the orangutan are our species's closest relatives. They possess sufficient mental faculties and emotional life to justify their inclusion in the community of equals."

It seems like they're taking this a bit too seriously. The term "community of equals" is so nebulously defined -- if, indeed, it's defined anywhere -- and feel-good talk like this is really nothing more than patting ones self on the back for their high moral stance.

On the other hand, it seems as though we're taking this a bit too seriously too. "moral and legal protection" can be interpreted quite narrowly, if they choose to do so, and only end up buttressing the current anti-abuse laws that may already exist on the books there.

This seems to be much ado about nothing to me. Mere posturing by some folks. Yes, extending "moral and legal protection(s)" to animals is a laudable goal, but this specific act doesn't seem to be much more than busybodied posturing. I mean, what is the Congress of Deputies? And what force does such a declaration as they're proposing have? Would that actually have the force of a law? Or would that be no more than other "Declarations" of support that legislative bodies like our Congress pass all the time: Statements that illustrate a stance, but do nothing active towards realizing that stance?

On the other hand, and as a humorous note, if we take a hypothetical situation to an extreme and postulate the possibility of electing an Ape to their government... wouldn't that be funny? I can see the headlines now: "Chimp vs. Chump". It might actually be entertaining.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ২:২৮ PM
bearbee বলেছেন...: MaxedOutMama said...
"Isn't it awfully humano-centric to grant rights to animal species ...."

It is presumptuous to think animals want our granting of rights to them. Each species has its own societal norms, laws and methods for electing its leaders. What they need to have is protection against us.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৩:০৩ PM
SippicanCottage বলেছেন...: এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৩:০৪ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: Leading indicator of mass insanity is what this is. Reminds me of the effort by someone years ago (I think they took out full-page ads in the NYT and/or WSJ) to proclaim the high moral need to convert all carnivores to vegatarians. Including lions, tigers, bears, snakes, hyenas, vultures, dogs, and maggots... It was this person or group's moral vision that we would be an immoral planet until such time as all the world's creatures ceased eating each other.

Personally, I thought they were nothing but speciest bigots. After all plants are people too - or chimps as may be the case.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৩:১৩ PM
Bruce Hayden বলেছেন...: F15c

Of course, the problem with turning cats of any type into vegitarians is that they are obligate carnivores. They have to regularly eat meat to stay healthy and survive. We, as omnivores, have a choice. Lions, tigers, et al., do not.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৩:৫৪ PM
bearbee বলেছেন...: " to proclaim the high moral need to convert all carnivores to vegatarians.."

Taliban; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৪:১৯ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: "We need legislation NOW!"

In the name of something decent for Thanksgiving dessert, can we outlaw pumpkin pie right now?

(Marghlar, in these PC times, I'd watch those little humanonormative slips like "my main beef is..."); ২৬/৪/০৬, ৪:৩৩ PM
Gahrie বলেছেন...: geoduck2:

Mahi Mahi is not related to dolphins. They are fish, and dolphins are mammals.

However the fish Mahi Mahi is called in many areas (Florida for instance) dolphin.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৬:৫৮ PM
SippicanCottage বলেছেন...: এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৭:০০ PM
Maxine Weiss বলেছেন...: Ross: You should go to the Los Angeles Zoo sometime. Both the Orangutans (sp?) and the Gorillas are very camera-aware. Constantly posing and begging for their picture to be taken....except for this one that I've had my eye on for years, who eats his bananna with backed turned to us----then flings the bananna peel over the shoulder at the audience.

Don't know what it would take to make that guy happy. And they've spent a fortune on the Orangutan exhibit, these guys livin in luxury, climate control jungle forest ect....

The giraffes are even worse. If they see a camera, they charge.

Certain animals really are bred for the stage!

Peace, Maxine; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৭:২৮ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: "In a few centuries, the Spanish Socialists would become supermen."

A few dozen centuries maybe... Have you been to Spain recently? The men are pigs. Uh, of course, I mean pigs that "possess sufficient mental faculties and emotional life to justify their inclusion in the community of equals".

Not the good eating ones.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ৭:৪২ PM
David McDougall বলেছেন...: pumpkins and fruitflies prove the point - that a tiny percentage of difference genetically is an incredibly large gap - and is responsible for the great majority of self-consciousness, thought, language, society and culture in human beings.

the article in the (conservative) Madrid daily El Mundo says that the PSOE is asking that 3 rights be protected for great apes: "vida, libertad y no ser torturado" - life, liberty, and to not be tortured. the proposal is based on the Great Ape Project, which hopes to "obtain[] for non-human great apes the fundamental moral and legal protections of the right to life, the freedom from arbitrary deprivation of liberty, and protection from torture."

which sounds much less silly than giving them the full legal status of persons. Note also that this proposal is not eligible to become law, but is simply a vote in support for the goals of the Great Ape Project.

The Spain Herald is extremely conservative and has, I think, misrepresented the suggestion to make the PSOE look foolish (more foolish?). If you're reading the SH then you don't speak Spanish, so they can get away with more twisting than Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly or Michael Moore would ever dare attempt. this editorial all but claims that the 2004 election there was stolen through a PSOE consipracy to conceal the truth about the March 11 bombing, which is kind of like claiming that '9/11 was an inside job'.; ২৬/৪/০৬, ১০:৩৭ PM
vbspurs বলেছেন...: Hyenas, apes.

My God, the memes! The memes!

Cheers,
Victoria; ২৭/৪/০৬, ১২:২৯ AM
bearbee বলেছেন...: VIVA!; ২৭/৪/০৬, ৭:০৫ AM
Dick O'Brien বলেছেন...: The Spain Herald is spinning this one a bit. Contrary to what it claims, the bill is not being introduced by the government. It’s being proposed by Francisco Garrido Peña, a member of the Green Party, which supports PSOE in Congress. Secondly, the bill is not draft legislation. There are several types of bills in Spain. This bill is a "proposicion no de ley", which is like a motion, calling on parliament to legislate or take action. Thirdly, the quotes used by the Spain Herald are not part of the bill. The full text of the bill reads:

"El Congreso de los Diputados insta al Gobierno a declarar su adhesión al Proyecto Gran Simio y a emprender las acciones necesarias en los foros y organismos internacionales, para la protección de los grandes simios del maltrato, la esclavitud, la tortura, la muerte y extinción."

"The Congress of Deputies calls on the government to support the Great Ape Project and to undertake the necessary action in international forums and organisations, to protect the great apes from mistreatment, captivity, torture, death and extinction."

While you might disagree with this proposal, it's a far cry from a government project to give human rights to monkeys. Instead, it's one party calling on the government to do something about mistreatment of these animals.; ২৭/৪/০৬, ৭:৩৪ AM
SippicanCottage বলেছেন...: এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।; ২৭/৪/০৬, ৮:২৬ AM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: "How do you know that Spaniards aren't good eating? Have you ever TRIED one?"

Most assuredly not. At least that I know of...

But I heard from a friend of a friend who knew somebody who said that they taste like chicken.; ২৭/৪/০৬, ১১:১৩ AM
bearbee বলেছেন...: Recipe; ২৭/৪/০৬, ১২:১৮ PM
SippicanCottage বলেছেন...: এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।; ২৭/৪/০৬, ১২:২০ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: "In a few centuries, the Spanish Socialists would become supermen.."

Manbearpig!!

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/south_park/index.jhtml; ২৭/৪/০৬, ১:৫৫ PM
নামহীন বলেছেন...: marghlar: "more likely, they in fact would taste rather like veal."

Whoa. More information on that page than I really wanted.

But you are right, veal not chicken. Sweet and just a little stringy. :(); ২৭/৪/০৬, ৬:০১ PM