tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post9209565117351952226..comments2024-03-18T20:24:02.511-05:00Comments on Althouse: Anti-abortion man, who yelled from a tree at the Inauguration, is charged with a crime. Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger97125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56182470253968939022013-01-25T16:29:24.424-06:002013-01-25T16:29:24.424-06:00it's so obvious now that the “conversation abo...it's so obvious now that the “conversation about abortion” in our country has evolved into something like George Orwell's book “1984” and the “doublespeak” thing... where the meaning of words or phrases are completely turned upside-down... the real “war on women” in this country is being waged by the abortion industry: http://www.know7things.com/sin.html Chris Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10183066214035727300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90264731989533800652013-01-24T20:40:27.115-06:002013-01-24T20:40:27.115-06:00Althouse: What is the proper tax rate for the rich...<i>Althouse: What is the proper tax rate for the rich?</i><br /><br />That's a question the current administration can never answer. All it knows is, regardless of the current rate, it should be "more."Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10438099877519107411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-72108346670982689922013-01-24T12:43:25.975-06:002013-01-24T12:43:25.975-06:00Agreed. The current safety net is a hammock that h...Agreed. The current safety net is a hammock that holds the frail less comfortably than it holds the lazy.<br /><br />"People who truly care about the poor should help them to feel discomfort in their poverty." Benjamin Franklin<br /><br />TreyTMinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07221261635305430323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-44042183659523310202013-01-23T22:25:57.703-06:002013-01-23T22:25:57.703-06:00And it's about having an appropriate safety ne...And it's about having an appropriate safety net that isn't too comfy. Needs to be rational.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-89588332553073535222013-01-23T22:25:20.299-06:002013-01-23T22:25:20.299-06:00"But more importantly is that "righties&..."But more importantly is that "righties" believe voluntary giving aleviates the suffering better not for the giver only but for the needy. With state forced charity (taxation) the negative side effects ruin it. For example..."<br /><br />But leaving it to private giving results in lots of contributions to helping animals and blind people... too much skewed sentimentality. I would prefer rational taxing and spending. That's an ideal. How close to it can we get?Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37350661740523826582013-01-23T17:21:09.606-06:002013-01-23T17:21:09.606-06:00If a man has a servant, and he tells his servant, ...If a man has a servant, and he tells his servant, "Go into town and give money to this widow," and the servant does it, why should the servant boast? Christian charity is not rightly based on feeling good about oneself.Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-10991301424428253022013-01-23T17:12:03.875-06:002013-01-23T17:12:03.875-06:00I do understand the emphasis righties place on vol...<i>I do understand the emphasis righties place on voluntary charity, but I'm not sold on that, because it is so focused on the giver's feeling of doing good. Shouldn't the focus be on alleviating suffering?</i><br /><br />The focus should be on doing the will of God. As I understand it, that is for us to love God and love one another. One expression of that is to alleviate suffering. A more basic expression is to love your neighbor, to reach out to him, to get to know what he needs. That is, I think, why some people like outsourcing helping to the government. It sanitizes the whole thing. A person then thinks he can say, "Sure, I care about the poor," without actually knowing any poor people. And he, of course, ignores the fact that he causes so many of his brothers to stumble by encouraging them to lie or to give up to get on the dole. He apes loving rather than doing it.Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-31814922362040763632013-01-23T17:09:07.217-06:002013-01-23T17:09:07.217-06:00I've been wealthy and I've been dirt poor....I've been wealthy and I've been dirt poor. I don't see them as so different that one be treated as noble and the other as wanting, yet it seems culture, including the bible really make a big deal of it. I suspect that is partly due to the fact that people in past rarely moved from one to the other, and thus seemed to be very different people than they are in an upwardly mobile society. <br /><br />The rich may not want for material things, but in other areas they are just as lacking, and wealth is of little help.bagoh20https://www.blogger.com/profile/10915174575358413637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86980703039602003212013-01-23T15:58:08.694-06:002013-01-23T15:58:08.694-06:00I meant to say--regarding Samuel's prophecy--t...I meant to say--regarding Samuel's prophecy--that if you trace the history of the kings of Israel and Judah, they do end up being mostly a bad lot, and both kingdoms are destroyed. So what Samuel warns, early on, proves to be exactly right. Quite a lot of the Bible explores this very theme. Even the books of Maccabees (which Protestant groups generally don't treat as Biblical) support this.<br /><br />And this, of course, fits nicely with our Lord saying, "My kingdom is not of this world."Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-61259722716863699942013-01-23T15:54:31.297-06:002013-01-23T15:54:31.297-06:00Professor:
To give a more serious response to you...Professor:<br /><br />To give a more serious response to you...<br /><br />There are passages in the Old Testament that would bear more directly on the question of taxation--the sections about tithes, extra tithes, and helping the poor--but they aren't entirely helpful, because they pertain to a society in which our distinctions between "secular" and "religious" would not make sense. But even then, the Mosaic covenant could not be stretched to say a 50% tax.<br /><br />Also, as someone noted, you can see the sermon of Samuel, to the people of Israel, when they ask for a king "like all the other nations have" (note: this is a key line to understanding this whole issue), as a warning against out-of-control government. However, that wasn't it's primary purpose. <br /><br />Samuel's warning serves as a prophecy of the disaster that would envelop God's People by seeking a king--to be like all the other nations. God's People had been called to be something very different from all the other nations--that's a theme that runs from the call of Abraham right through the entire Old Testament, into the New. <br /><br />So as much as small-government types might like Samuel's warning, he wasn't trying to be a Ron Paul of his time.<br /><br />The New Testament takes a different tack--very little in the New Testament even addresses the subject of government policy. Our Lord simply didn't concern himself with it. "My kingdom is not of this world." If the Romans took 100%, it's not that Jesus would have said that was good; I rather doubt he would. But what he did say was, leave it all behind. Or, as that great theologian Janis Joplin said, "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."<br /><br />Now, some people emphasize a "low Christology"--meaning they emphasize the Lord's humanity, and the limits that go with that--while others take a "high" Christology and emphasize his divinity.<br /><br />For those in the latter camp, we would say that our Lord knew well how legal and political theory would develop out of the spread of the Faith and the emergence of Christian society. That's not to say he intended everything that resulted--just that he was leaving some of these questions for later. They weren't the things he wanted to emphasize.<br /><br />Does the passage in question intend to show that Zacchaeus's response is a generous one--or simply a just one?<br /><br />I think you will find scholars argue over that one. But one of the points people will make is that Zacchaeus' response is rather extravagant, in terms of putting things right. He seems to go beyond what the demands of the Law would ask him to do--at least, depending on which OT passage you look to, regarding restitution. On this one, I'd want to dig a lot deeper into rabbinic commentary before I said more on that.<br /><br />But the image of a seemingly "worst" sinner actually showing himself to be an exemplary convert is a frequent one in the Gospels, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's what Matthew is trying to do with Zacchaeus here.<br /><br />But that doesn't work if the point isn't that Zacchaeus was extravagant in his response--but merely paying his due.<br /><br />So, in short, I'd say no, the Gospel passage you cite does not imply anything about an appropriate level of taxation for anyone.Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-20334616351038246152013-01-23T15:25:29.654-06:002013-01-23T15:25:29.654-06:00Jesus didn't say anything about the moral posi...<i>Jesus didn't say anything about the moral position of people whose profession was military.</i><br /><br />That's true, but Jesus didn't say anything about the moral position of slave-owners, either. You can't take his lack of comment about the political structures of his day (or our day!) as tacit approval of them. His agenda is not a political agenda, but a spiritual one.Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-61535545572317115742013-01-23T15:19:25.083-06:002013-01-23T15:19:25.083-06:00Jesus always seems to me to be anti-authoritarian ...Jesus always seems to me to be anti-authoritarian in spirit. He was in constant conflict with the authorities, until he was executed.<br /><br />Honestly, I prefer the Gospels to the rest of the Bible, by far. Just way more interesting and provocative.Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-21688230247284163762013-01-23T15:03:22.866-06:002013-01-23T15:03:22.866-06:00That is a good discussion, like I said earlier I t...That is a good discussion, like I said earlier I took the Christian pacifist position on the matter in a Sunday school debate using Tolstoy's arguments.<br /><br />I would never argue that we have to support a war simply because the government has declared a war. <br /><br />And I'm not arguing that God has ordained any particular state or government.<br /><br />What I am arguing is that the concept of government itself comes from God.<br /><br />God does not want humanity to live in a state of anarchy.<br /><br />Given that, then the use of force to maintain order is permissible.<br /><br />To me, the real issue is just how much force and for what ends is permissible.<br /><br />The answer to that question, to me, is the least amount of force possible to enforce the smallest number of rules needed to enable society to function.<br /><br />And yep, that last paragraph allows for lots of personal interpretation. ron winkleheimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07682886145531485741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-35268827063154008852013-01-23T14:58:51.406-06:002013-01-23T14:58:51.406-06:00Ann Althouse: I do understand the emphasis rightie...<b>Ann Althouse:</b> <i>I do understand the emphasis righties place on voluntary charity, but I'm not sold on that, because it is so focused on the giver's feeling of doing good. Shouldn't the focus be on alleviating suffering?</i><br /><br />Yes, that should be the focus, and charity* alleviates suffering better than redistribution precisely <b>because</b> of what it does with the giver's feelings.<br /><br />*"voluntary charity" is redundant - it's not charity if it's involuntarySeanFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09697328067457248454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-49408312697647987942013-01-23T14:53:08.713-06:002013-01-23T14:53:08.713-06:00@bagoh20,
you can learn a lot about Jesus and the...@bagoh20,<br /><br />you can learn a lot about Jesus and the disciples by reading the Gospel according to Matthew. (Or Mark. Or Luke. Maybe even John.) It's not a hard read, though there is a lot of interpretation that is inferred from the tradition of Christianity and from historical research.<br /><br />As a note: Jesus sent out the disciples in pairs during one phase of his ministry. In those instructions, he told them to depend on the generosity of the leading person in each town.<br /><br />@Saint Croix, <br /><i>I have a theory that Christian societies cannot function in our world. For instance, Christianity calls on us to love our enemies, and not to kill anyone.<br /><br />So how do you reconcile that with an army, for instance?</i><br /><br />You might want to begin reading the letters and writings of the church leaders from the generation following the Apostles.<br /><br />For example, one of those men did some commentary on whether Christians could morally be members of the Roman Army. He noted that John the Baptist's teaching was the opening of the Gospel, and that this teaching did not encourage soldiers to leave the Roman Army. Instead, John encouraged them to do their jobs fairly, and not use their position of power to cheat or abuse others.<br /><br />Similarly, Jesus had several good things to say about the Centurion who came to him requesting healing for a child. Jesus didn't say anything about the moral position of people whose profession was military.SJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12043843405366080460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86212250124731104082013-01-23T14:49:20.724-06:002013-01-23T14:49:20.724-06:00I have always had issues with authority so these a...I have always had issues with authority so these are some of the toughest parts of the Bible for me.Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-68074875639445823182013-01-23T14:46:57.799-06:002013-01-23T14:46:57.799-06:00Let everyone be subject to the governing authoriti...<i>Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.</i><br /><br />Ralph, that is not the same thing as "ordained by God." Is it?<br /><br />Pretty nice discussion <a href="http://www.loveyourenemies.org/romans13.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-58528559873785925072013-01-23T14:38:50.311-06:002013-01-23T14:38:50.311-06:00The movie Witness is a really beautiful film about...The movie <b><i>Witness</i></b> is a really beautiful film about this conflict. Wounded policeman with a gun hides out among the Amish, and the bad guys come looking for him. <br /><br />His name is John Book, by the way. I love that name, it's awesome. Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-13038460555499761752013-01-23T14:37:26.999-06:002013-01-23T14:37:26.999-06:00Romans 13:1-7 Let everyone be subject to the gove...Romans 13:1-7 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.<br /><br />6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.<br /><br />As a liberal, I would think you would like that passage. <br /><br />And nope, doesn't mean we can do immoral things just cause the state says it is legal. For instance Christians should not have abortions (that is kill babies.) <br /><br />Christian thinking on the issue is that Christians are obligated to obey lawful authority as long as the law does not require they do things contrary to natural law or scripture, for instance being forced to fund abortions via a health insurance law.<br /><br />And yes, Christians can and do disagree about the details concerning just what natural law and scripture requires from them.ron winkleheimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07682886145531485741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-8048788867075433512013-01-23T14:25:47.381-06:002013-01-23T14:25:47.381-06:00this is why I'm not a Christian. It's too ...<i>this is why I'm not a Christian. It's too hard.</i><br /><br />Wimp!Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-40617785823294159462013-01-23T14:20:41.274-06:002013-01-23T14:20:41.274-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-69254268484306435892013-01-23T14:19:19.834-06:002013-01-23T14:19:19.834-06:00First of all, the Bible does not say don't kil...<i>First of all, the Bible does not say don't kill, it says don't murder. No extra-judicial killing.</i><br /><br />On that theory we can kill babies, own slaves, and exterminate the Jews. As long as the state says it's okay, we're good to go?Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19678768782285115612013-01-23T14:13:38.202-06:002013-01-23T14:13:38.202-06:00it also informs us that the state is ordained by G...<i>it also informs us that the state is ordained by God</i><br /><br />What?Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-53798055401721365752013-01-23T13:43:55.703-06:002013-01-23T13:43:55.703-06:00TMink - that is what I said. The first part of the...TMink - that is what I said. The first part of the post is a quote from further up the thread.ron winkleheimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07682886145531485741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-47601299013650584892013-01-23T13:43:17.858-06:002013-01-23T13:43:17.858-06:00Ann Althouse:
That perspective implies a presumpt...Ann Althouse:<br /><br />That perspective implies a presumption of guilt (i.e. judge a person by their skin color rather than the content of their character). Only God is omniscient, and presumably still defers to individual conscience in life and the post-mortem. Mortal beings, with constrained insight, practice risk management in order to preserve individual dignity.<br /><br />Voluntary exploitation, including charity, free from bilateral fraud, serves the interests of both the provider and receiver.<br /><br />It is in the interest of society to help individuals who momentarily falter, or who are mental and physically incapable of productive contribution. It is also in the interest of society to control progressive corruption through dissociation of risk. A central, physically and morally isolated governing model does not engender accountability and does promote corruption.<br /><br />Entitlements should be contributory. Welfare should be reformed to focus on rehabilitation. The exception given to individuals who are both physically and mentally incapable of productive contribution to society or family. Involuntary exploitation, including taxation, should be limited with a focus on promoting the general Welfare. It should be neither regressive nor progressive. It may be recharacterized to be comprehensive, but not to the extent it provides disincentive to productive enterprise, and incentive to corruption.<br /><br />The reality is that resources, both natural and human, are finitely available and accessible. We must acknowledge this inherent limitation.<br /><br />That dissociation of risk causes corruption. That dreams of instant (or immediate) gratification motivates its progress. We must acknowledge this inherent limitation.<br /><br />That the goal, for many or most of us, is to reconcile our principles with the limitations that reality imposes upon us.<br /><br />We cannot reject our principles (e.g. individual dignity, sanctity of human life), distort reality through manipulation of perception, and still hope to realize positive progress.n.nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04252447117532342957noreply@blogger.com