tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post8917132351692739569..comments2024-03-28T18:16:30.699-05:00Comments on Althouse: There's what the NYT calls an "ethnic divide" between white and Asian-Americans in "a high-achieving school district" in New Jersey.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger114125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-5475010337824285942017-02-12T10:30:11.773-06:002017-02-12T10:30:11.773-06:00This is not a racial issue, but a cultural one. Wh...This is not a racial issue, but a cultural one. When the town you have resided in for years, suddenly becomes unrecognizable, and when the school system culture shifts significantly based on cultural child rearing efforts, it is unsettling at best, and downright disturbing, at worst. Not every American parent wishes to raise their child<br /> based on Asian culture's bench mark. If they did, perhaps they'd choose to move to China or Japan, or to a location of upper caste India. The problem arises when people from other countries come to America, the great Melting Pot, yet refuse to "melt".aMUSEherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08861648676494477728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-23539539057794787972016-01-11T17:06:05.991-06:002016-01-11T17:06:05.991-06:00This is much later, but just for completion's ...This is much later, but just for completion's sake, over 30% of Asians and over 25% of whites get a 5 on the AP Calculus test. The numbers for BC are just over and just under 50% for Asian and whites, respectively. <br /><br />Since I'm a math teacher, I'm on conversational terms with any number of AP Calculus teachers. Many of them agree with me about the AB Calculus test being in some way too predictable, but they argue that the BC Calculus test doesn't suffer from the same problem. I'm skeptical, but I'll allow for the possibility. <br /><br />Incidentally, the high pass rates I'm skeptical of are not purely Asian. It's pretty clear the College Board renorms tests when the pass rates get too high. <br /><br />Oh, and by the way: it's "rote". <br /><br /><br />"Stuart Anderson came up with a term, the Multiplier Effect, to describe them"<br /><br />But the Japanese, after several generations, track very closely to whites. Which is kind of interesting, really.<br /><br />And as has been mentioned, if second generations are so extraordinary, why is there a "bamboo ceiling"?Education Realisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17292589550049244821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-68607262036415049302016-01-02T18:28:12.844-06:002016-01-02T18:28:12.844-06:00Interesting! What do you think of those extraordin...Interesting! What do you think of those extraordinary achievements accomplished by the second generation, many of whom are Asian American? Stuart Anderson came up with a term, the Multiplier Effect, to describe them. Do you also think their achievements are a result of cheating? By the way, the most ridiculous remark you made in a few comments above is regarding the AP Calculus exam. You seem to believe the current Calculus exam questions are mostly rogue formula memorization. You should tell more people who have taught AP Calc and see their reactions.<br /><br /><br />Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18192129674611053733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64717214422189294292016-01-02T13:57:04.514-06:002016-01-02T13:57:04.514-06:00Well, if you're going to dismiss people, do it...Well, if you're going to dismiss people, do it properly. Rush Limbaugh and the rest agree with you. They sneer at the New York liberals who don't want to compete. <br /><br />And since I write extensively on IQ and average racial differences in IQ, rest assured I have no problem with being intelligent. I also have no objection to hard work. <br /><br />But if you'd read what I wrote (and you clearly didn't), you'd see the accusations are that there is a lot of cheating (undisputed), that the kids in question, even when they don't cheat, do not have any of the knowledge that their resume suggests. If we define intelligence solely by "being able to store information long enough to reproduce it for a test that doesn't want analysis or opinions" then fine, but that's not traditionally what Americans value.Education Realisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17292589550049244821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-60170956554505975392016-01-01T23:12:16.190-06:002016-01-01T23:12:16.190-06:00Those comments asserting "Asians cheat" ...Those comments asserting "Asians cheat" makes me believe the commenters are avid talk radio listeners. Just as Limbaugh, Levin, Beck, et al often allude on their shows, if they (Asians) are better than us, they steal from us. Stop being so salty!!! Get busy! Get your priority straight. There is nothing wrong with hard work or being intelligent for that matter. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18192129674611053733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-38762102897457803732016-01-01T18:44:13.840-06:002016-01-01T18:44:13.840-06:00^ someone's salty^ someone's saltyNina the Squirrelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03480517921687607940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11811463467412909862015-12-28T10:37:24.465-06:002015-12-28T10:37:24.465-06:00Oh, please. Any below the richest whites, Asians, ...Oh, please. Any below the richest whites, Asians, Hispanics, and blacks in this country have no contacts, no family or friends or acquaintances to open the door for them to top schoos. They don't become obsessed about grades and test scores. They don't cheat constantly, and they certainly don't collaborate to cheat in organized fashion. They don't have businesses set up to help them cheat or game the system. <br /><br />All of this is cultural baggage brought from another culture, and Americans are right to reject it.<br /><br />And remember--in many cases, the Asian immigrants didn't come here for jobs. In many cases, they come here solely to give their kids an education via this method of obsession/cheating/whatever, because they don't want to face the competition back home. They are knowingly using a system they see as a joke to be beaten to get their kids a leg up. <br /><br />This isn't striving. Education Realisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17292589550049244821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-27856856952664422602015-12-28T10:29:27.765-06:002015-12-28T10:29:27.765-06:00" Where there is cheating, who is cheating?&q...<i>" Where there is cheating, who is cheating?"</i><br /><br />And, to what extent does it actually work? Most of us have known academic cheaters who put a tremendous amount of effort into cheating yet, although it may have worked in the short run, it was seldom successful for long because (1) effort that could have gone into improved performance was instead channeled into cheating, and (2) cheaters cheat because they perceive that they lack the talent to compete honestly, and in this they're often correct.<br /><br />Perhaps cheating works in some domains but, even if academic cheating is sometimes rampant, to what extent is it actually effective?<br /><br />______<br />As for the story, to the extent it is true I'd be inclined to assume these white parents must be Liberal, for what self-respecting conservative would demand that rewards not go to those who combine talent with hard work?<br /><br />As Calvin Coolidge put it: "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan, 'press on' has solved, and always will solve, the problems of the human race."<br /><br />Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16099940931064117337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-44338429375332287802015-12-28T07:36:43.688-06:002015-12-28T07:36:43.688-06:00If you are a very bright Chinese- or Korean- or In...If you are a very bright Chinese- or Korean- or Indian-American high school kid, and you know you have to get SATs a couple of hundred points higher than the white kids to have an equal shot at an Ivy admit, wouldn't you work like crazy, too, to try to get through that little crack in the wall? Especially since you don't have the kinds of family friends, acquaintances, connections etc. that can open doors for you down the road and all you have to go on is your smarts? I read what some of the posters here said about how awful Asian American students are, how grasping and striving and caring only about grades, but I think that's all b.s. Cry me a river for all the anglo students who can't keep up. Douglas B. Levenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07916420802096618688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-16661791548139383352015-12-28T05:41:27.519-06:002015-12-28T05:41:27.519-06:00Even 20% is too much when (as you observe) the hom...Even 20% is too much when (as you observe) the homework is mindnumbingly long and stupid, so that the only kids who do it are kids certain they might not survive a grade lower than an A. <br /><br />Access to AP classes is usually done by grade, so kids who don't bother doing homework their freshman year are getting Bs, so they are locked out of AP classes.<br /><br />Assigning lots of homework to kids who have tutors allows teachers to increase the pace of the class (and they're under pressure to increase the pace of the class by the parents who pay for tutors). And of course, the kids who have taken the course before in summer private instruction have often already worked the problems, or have problem sets worked out for them.<br /><br />That's not the whole solution, but yeah, even 20% of the grade matters. Asian parents want homework to be a higher percentage of the grade. <br /><br /><br />As for "pure merit", while I'm definitely in favor of rewarding brains, the fact is that Asian immigrants have "broken" our test system, particularly the College Board side of things. I have no idea if it's just a gaming method of decoding the test, or if the cheating is so substantial it turns up in the scores. Certainly the AP Calc tests are too easy or too formulaic--the Bio test was just changed a couple years ago and scores dropped. Similar changes need to be made to the Calc tests. But the SAT scores---Asian scores have increased dramatically in the past 15 years, while every other race average has stayed roughly constant. That suggests something other than just hard work. <br /><br />The new SAT is dramatically different, much more like the ACT. Asian Americans have a 3:1 preference for the SAT (much stronger than the demographic preference for any other test). Asian internationals don't even bother with the ACT. Given the incredible cheating problems on the SAT, it will be interesting to see if the score gap is quite as substantial. I'm not predicting anything, just interested.Education Realisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17292589550049244821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-31906086393037984532015-12-28T03:28:11.406-06:002015-12-28T03:28:11.406-06:00Education Realist said...
"The fix is not: b...Education Realist said...<br /><br />"The fix is not: ban all Asians. The fix is: maintain American educational standards, stop rewarding effort, stop assigning barrels of homework, test on retained knowledge to penalize cramming and ruthlessly punish cheating."<br /><br />"stop rewarding effort"? Do you mean "stop rewarding student based on time put it, reward them based on quality of work"? Which I assume would be "Stop giving X hours / night of mind numbingly stupid homework, instead give far fewer problems, but ones that require actual understanding and insight to solve"?<br /><br />Or am I failing to understand. My HS was "College Prep", which mean that homework in non-writing classes was ~20% or less of the grade, rather than being 50%+ at most of the public schools in the area. Is that what you're lookign for?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-85794642934367928922015-12-28T03:18:56.061-06:002015-12-28T03:18:56.061-06:00"When that happens, it really does deserve th..."When that happens, it really does deserve the term racism."<br /><br />Really? But doing the same to favor black or Hispanic students is perfectly fine?<br /><br />Because the only difference between what those racists did, and what your racists are doing, is that your racists are promoting people with even crappier grades and SAT scores than the other racists.<br /><br />Screw the "Holistic" approach. Screw the BS about outside activities (which is currently making the lives of grade school and high school kids a living hell, since they're never allowed to have fun).<br /><br />By all means save some spots for jocks, save some spots for people whose parents gave a lot of money to the school, but other than that: let people in by academic merit. And if you don't do that, no student loans for your student, no gov't grants for your educators, no government money at all.<br /><br />End racism, don't "mend" it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90624808674630901752015-12-27T13:13:54.893-06:002015-12-27T13:13:54.893-06:00The New York Times had a front page article today ...The New York Times had a front page article today about dumbing down in high school:<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/27/us/as-graduation-rates-rise-experts-fear-standards-have-fallen.html<br /><br /><i> ...According to college entrance exams administered to every 11th grader in the state last spring, only one in 10 Berea students were ready for college-level work in reading, and about one in 14 were ready for entry-level college math. And on a separate test of skills needed to succeed in most jobs, little more than half of the students demonstrated that they could handle the math they would need.<br /><br />It is a pattern repeated in other school districts across the state and country — urban, suburban and rural — where the number of students earning high school diplomas has risen to historic peaks, yet measures of academic readiness for college or jobs are much lower... </i><br /><br />The high school featured here is in South Carolina, in Greenville.<br /><br /><br />Sammy Finkelmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05105012664741556033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-29209520109031269702015-12-27T11:12:34.739-06:002015-12-27T11:12:34.739-06:00A blogger I sometimes read shows up in the comment...A blogger I sometimes read shows up in the comments on a totally unrelated blog that I read every day. Unexpected! (Neat.)Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-89834083490407451862015-12-27T10:54:25.103-06:002015-12-27T10:54:25.103-06:00There's no reason they can't focus on mora...<i>There's no reason they can't focus on moral, social and emotional development, except in middle and high school they are choosing to not do so.</i><br /><br />That is because we no longer agree on what the proper moral, social and development is.<br /><br />There are parents and teachers who want to teach our children about explicit (and previously deviant) sexual acts in school.<br /><br />There are parents and teachers who want to force young girls to share locker rooms and bathrooms with confused young men.<br /><br />There are parents and teachers who attempt to indoctrinate our children into Leftwing ideology in our schools.<br /><br />No more prayer, not even a moment of silence, and the Pledge is entirely optional. (I am usually the only one in my room saying it, even though I do force the kids to stand and be respectful)Gahriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16795449308207016641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37245487246834643992015-12-27T10:46:57.425-06:002015-12-27T10:46:57.425-06:00@ Tari and Gahrie
My kids go to a school that pra...@ Tari and Gahrie<br /><br />My kids go to a school that practices Core Knowledge and <a href="http://www.corevirtues.net/" rel="nofollow">Core Virtues</a> through 8th grade (where the school ends). It is a charter school though; I've not heard of any public schools that actively do both.Bircheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00045640752795693223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-10970563955233581882015-12-27T10:39:10.963-06:002015-12-27T10:39:10.963-06:00Another example of cultural differences that have ...Another example of cultural differences that have permeated America and as usual we don't know the correct way to address the situation. My children attend and have graduated from a private Christian school where there are handfuls of Asian students. One of my daughters best friends is Asian and we have seen first hand the culture of "push" by the parents. It's as if they are checking off the box. Piano, Mandarian, math, tennis lessons weekly. Math competitions, internships as sophomores in high school, all AP and honors classes. It is all planned and orchestrated by the parents. This is all fine and good, IF the student has interest in such endeavors. In our experience most Asian parents, but of course not all, put a lot of pressure on their children to be the best at everything for no other reason than " it's what Asian's do" and have to been seen as intellectually superior. I think this is where the cheating comes in for a few, they are under enormous pressure to be the best at everything, instead doing the best at what they enjoy. That being said, every Asian family I encounter values education to a degree that is missing from other ethnicities, including whites.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-45754853528639944402015-12-27T09:29:57.497-06:002015-12-27T09:29:57.497-06:00My children also attended a west coast high achiev...My children also attended a west coast high achieving HS that has about 35% Asian students. I myself am 1/2 Chinese 1/2 white though I was raised in an east coast middle class area with virtually no other Asians and speak only english. The situation with the Asian students is far more complicated than discussed in the article and a very serious problem. Many of the Asian students in our school are the children of foreign high tech parents and in other cases the parents have sent the children here to rent a room alone in the district just to attend the school. There children completely self segregate themselves for the rest of the school, rarely play sports, and help each other cheat at a very high rate. Yes they are high achieving but many of them take the math or science class the summer before the local college and then try to get the teachers to skip the information they already know. Quite honestly the local teachers mostly despise the Asians because of their singular goal of getting an A. My children are 1/4 Asian but they don't know but one or two Asians in the entire large school. Initially I was angry at my children when they complained about the weird Asians but over time I came to see that this new influx of Asian student is unhealthy and the the colleges are probably correct not to admit sole based on grades and test scores. At the honor awards when my daughter graduated around 80% of the students were Asian and the only time these students actually talked to my daughter is after they found out she was accept to a HYPS school. Then they hounded her to find out her secret formula when in truth she had no idea exactly why she was accepted. There will be no easy solutions to this problem. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409039957373084511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-31883378877137963062015-12-27T08:16:12.697-06:002015-12-27T08:16:12.697-06:00I completely agree that there's rampant discri...I completely agree that there's rampant discrimination against Asians, but which came first? I wrote about this in one of the essays linked in (https://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/asian-immigrants-and-what-no-one-mentions-aloud/):<br /><br /><i>The universities look at the resumes of all Asian kids—recent immigrants, long-established natives, nationals—and know that many of them are fraudulent. They know that many of the kids they accept will not be able to function on their campus, whereas others will be able to get great grades so long as they cheat. They know that many of the students don’t have the inquisitive mind, genuine interest in intellectual pursuits that universities like to see in students (or pretend they do). But the universities want the great, if often fraudulent, stats to puff up their numbers for the rankings systems, to offset the athlete, the legacies (for privates), and the Kashawn Campbells (for publics). And so they try to minimize it, while still getting what they want—an improved profile, out of state fees for four years, instead of just one, while not overloading the campus with too many Asians.</i><br /><br />However, Polymath is incorrect. This is *not* what "forces" the parents to do x, y, and z. The behavior came first. The discrimination came later, for many reasons, but a good deal of which is caused by the fact that the Asian parent pressure produces kids whose abilities simply make a lie of their resumes.<br /><br />I've taught enrichment English at an Asian academy for many years. I run into kids all the time who got the highest level, Advanced, on their end of year state tests who simply don't have anything approaching the vocabulary or writing skills to back these scores up--and this is simply not the case for whites, blacks, and Hispanics with similar scores (or later generation Asians). I know lots Asian immigrants with 2400 SAT scores, and I know a few whites with same, as well as Americans of all races with over 2100 totals. Again and again, the Asian immigrants are simply ordinary swots, often having forgotten the information they crammed for. The others with equivalent scores are not.<br /><br /><i>the amount of work now given to students in districts like this is much larger than it used to be AND much larger than is necessary to actually learn the subjects well and be prepared for college work.</i><br /><br />Again, this only seems to happen in Asian schools, and it's in part a result of poor teaching. The Asian kids seem capable of keeping up, so keeping up becomes a differentiator. My point is that they aren't really keeping up.<br /><br />Again, I am speaking broadly--many Asians don't have great scores, many others are bright.<br /><br />The fix is not: ban all Asians. The fix is: maintain American educational standards, stop rewarding effort, stop assigning barrels of homework, test on retained knowledge to penalize cramming and ruthlessly punish cheating.<br /><br />Education Realisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17292589550049244821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-17072246026989731982015-12-27T07:36:48.608-06:002015-12-27T07:36:48.608-06:00Ann, you are looking at this backwards. I am a mat...Ann, you are looking at this backwards. I am a math teacher who tutors high school students in these very towns and I can tell you exactly what is happening.<br /><br />1) there is an extremely severe discrimination against Asian kids in college admissions to top schools that is purely race-based, all the talk about "holistic admissions" is a lie to cover racial discrimination because the Asian kids are penalized despite being creative and well rounded and good at English and having great personalities and attitudes, none of the stereotypical qualities that are attributed to them are actually capable of being used against them, it's purely race<br />2) THAT is what forces Asian kids in high schools to be insanely competitive and for Asian parents to put pressure on the school districts <br />3) the amount of work now given to students in districts like this is much larger than it used to be AND much larger than is necessary to actually learn the subjects well and be prepared for college work. Simply graduating with an A average, which used to be achievable by all smart kids who were willing to do a couple of hours of homework a night, now requires three times as much work. There is extreme emphasis on speed and accuracy so that, in courses like Calculus, the tests are twice as long as they used to be with the same amount of time to do them. A smart student who practiced calculus for 5 hours a week would be able to get 100% on the old tests but would have to practice 15 hours a week to get fast enough to get 100% on the new double-size tests WITHOUT ACTUALLY LEARNING ANY NEW CONCEPTS. There is extreme emphasis on having seen every possible problem type many times because there is no longer time to simply FIGURE THEM OUT BY THINKING ABOUT THEM. This is a waste of effort because the only point of making the tests longer is to create more competition between students.Polymathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12332963337386407840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79812401387984712392015-12-27T03:05:29.683-06:002015-12-27T03:05:29.683-06:00They should ban asians from attending white schoo...They should ban asians from attending white schools and white universities. <br />Hopefully that will encourage asians to self deport and open up more diversity spots for blacks and Hispanics. <br /><br /><br />Asians have not contributed anything to America other than pearl Harbor, Vietnam, korea and stealing American jobs.<br /><br />The asian race is culturally incompatible with white culture. <br /><br />Keep in mind these subhuman gooks eat cats, dogs, fetuses, tiger penises. They are a savage and untrustworthy race.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10921478436785072221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-18772756962329512522015-12-27T00:51:45.382-06:002015-12-27T00:51:45.382-06:00It's like Robert Cook. He or she declares igno...It's like Robert Cook. He or she declares ignorance of a fact which would destroy their argument. They make brave noises about wanting more information. Information is given. Crickets thereafter.Nichevohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591460407621898458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78325798473969025262015-12-27T00:41:30.698-06:002015-12-27T00:41:30.698-06:00CWJ, it's Saturday night. And Education Realis...CWJ, it's Saturday night. And Education Realist's answers (which ere much more thorough than the earlier ones, came at least after dinnertime, and possibly after 9. (I'm not sure how blogger does timestamps.) Many people have other things to do besides answer blog comments on a Saturday night. Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389602137217799305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-87357040307516952012015-12-27T00:31:33.622-06:002015-12-27T00:31:33.622-06:00A simple defense against cheating is to have uniqu...A simple defense against cheating is to have uniqueness in the examination. The SAT already does this by having multiple versions of its exams so that cheating off someone else is unwise.<br /><br />In the academic arena, at least with courses that lend themselves to it, oral examination is a helpful way to cut down on cheating. I had that once in study abroad, 15 minutes mano-a-mano with the professor, and my experience is that it is very difficult to maintain a conversation for 15 minutes on anything without sufficient knowledge. It also relieves the professor of having to examine dozens of exam booklets with poor handwriting.<br /><br />For courses that require a more traditional exam, a good anti-cheating mechanism is to either mix up the order of questions between each exam or have completely/partially different exam versions. Particularly with modern computer software, it should not be too much effort to simply ask a computer to randomly generate the necessary number of exams from the pool of questions and also the answer keys for them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91617285541411694172015-12-26T23:31:57.089-06:002015-12-26T23:31:57.089-06:00Balfegor - In China, most students apparently thin...Balfegor - In China, most students apparently think it's perfectly normal to plagiarize, to copy homework, to cheat on an exam. I've even read about tenured professors whose published works were largely plagiarized. The scale of cheating goes far beyond a few big exams - although the biggest exam in China, the college entrance exam, is mostly if not completely free from cheating scandals. That said, I have found that the vast majority of my students here in China, once they understand the rules at our school, don't cheat, and they want the faculty to crack down on the few students who do. I don't think this is a "Chinese" or "Asian" problem. At least here, it seems to be a "communist" problem. All I know about Korea is what I read in the newspapers and from talking to my Korean colleagues, and from that distance cheating in Korea doesn't sound like anywhere near as big a problem as in China. Douglas B. Levenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07916420802096618688noreply@blogger.com