tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post7843220196449301606..comments2024-03-19T05:34:51.425-05:00Comments on Althouse: Suing your own abortionist for making you witness the murder of your accidentally delivered child.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger187125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4533622468055699082009-02-08T17:29:00.000-06:002009-02-08T17:29:00.000-06:00The defense would be that our new President was ju...The defense would be that our new President was just fine with it while in the Illinois Senate. This is just what follows from a radical pro-abortion <A HREF="http://whyimnotademocrat.blogspot.com/2009/02/infanticide-in-america-is-reality-and.html" REL="nofollow">Liberal</A> world view.Blue Collar Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06405341351988210669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56051929928799817792009-02-07T19:50:00.000-06:002009-02-07T19:50:00.000-06:00Of course a non-licensed person doing what she did...Of course a non-licensed person doing what she did should be prosecutable (I would think) even without this girl's lawsuit.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Do you know Roe?<BR/>http://www.roeiqtest.com/Nella @McDonald's In Heavenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02324910265728062898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-13562670239424223372009-02-07T09:28:00.000-06:002009-02-07T09:28:00.000-06:00feministj:but my gut feeling was that this one cro...feministj:<BR/><BR/><I>but my gut feeling was that this one crossed the line into something other than an abortion. </I><BR/><BR/>No shit.<BR/><BR/><I> I don't pretend that this is an easy ethical question. </I><BR/><BR/>In this case? It's pretty fucking easy.<BR/><BR/> <I>Sometimes when a question isn't easy, "18 inches" is all there is to be able to make a decision. Further, upon reflection, I'm not sure what the legal answer should be and perhaps murder was too strong a word.</I><BR/><BR/>No, <I>murder</I> isn't too strong a word to use at all. Neither is <I>idiot.</I>Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16517956537865658903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88185224786056295332009-02-06T22:56:00.000-06:002009-02-06T22:56:00.000-06:00Revenant said... "So why, in America, are atheists...Revenant said... <BR/>"<I>So why, in America, are atheists less likely to be murderers than Christians are?</I>"<BR/><BR/>Uh... Because there are <I>fewer of them?</I>Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-63425289020794076012009-02-06T22:41:00.000-06:002009-02-06T22:41:00.000-06:00To be fair, Rev, do the murders who are Christian ...To be fair, Rev, do the murders who are Christian actually believe in supernatural punishment, or do they just identify as Christian? If they did, it ought to be just as persuasive as punishment in the here and now. (OTOH, if you believe your God is actually going to reward you, then it's obviously not an inhibiting factor.)<BR/><BR/><I>Left to their own, all men and all women see murder as a convenience and a tool to get what they want.</I><BR/><BR/>In any case, I think you agreed with this part, yes?Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78723319997369960082009-02-06T19:02:00.000-06:002009-02-06T19:02:00.000-06:00The dicussion of Murder is inherently an issue bet...<I>The dicussion of Murder is inherently an issue between men and their God. Left to their own, all men and all women see murder as a convenience and a tool to get what they want.</I><BR/><BR/>So why, in America, are atheists less likely to be murderers than Christians are?<BR/><BR/>The main factor restraining human violence isn't fear of the supernatural, but fear of the entirely natural: other human beings. Murder is less common in places where the social fabric is strong and murderers are harshly punished.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28415171959434157402009-02-06T19:01:00.000-06:002009-02-06T19:01:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88742416762154246342009-02-06T18:58:00.000-06:002009-02-06T18:58:00.000-06:00If you don't regard abortion as the taking of huma...<I>If you don't regard abortion as the taking of human life, as many don't, then there is no moral decision involved.</I><BR/><BR/>As Michael Vick could tell you, society places moral value on a wide range of NON-human lives, too.<BR/><BR/>If you bought a dog and then decided you didn't want it anymore, would you kill it? Maybe you would, but many people would consider that morally wrong. It might even be illegal in some parts of the country; I don't know.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36972896867615226002009-02-06T17:25:00.000-06:002009-02-06T17:25:00.000-06:00Such an extreme position does nothing to prevent a...<I>Such an extreme position does nothing to prevent a situation such as the one here. I think both 'sides' agree a situation like this one should never happen.</I><BR/><BR/>The difference between what was *supposed* to happen at that clinic and what *did* happen at that clinic was cosmetic, at most.<BR/><BR/>To be honest, I know I said that the girl should be able to sue, and probably ought to win, but I really don't care that she had a bad day.<BR/><BR/>I really *really* don't.<BR/><BR/>Protecting what was *supposed* to happen at that clinic in order to prevent what *did* happen is like telling a vegetarian that if what they eat doesn't LOOK like meat, then it's actually a vegetable.<BR/><BR/>The events of the day resulted in exactly what the events were supposed to result in. An ended pregnancy and a discarded fetus.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-69395209443509235712009-02-06T16:36:00.000-06:002009-02-06T16:36:00.000-06:00Synova, yes, and men who molest their daughters gi...Synova, yes, and men who molest their daughters give the same rationale.<BR/><BR/>feministj:<BR/><BR/>"Also, Laura asked:<BR/><BR/>"Also, how are you going to have all these safe, etc. abortion clinics nationwide if decent people don't want anything to do with abortion or abortion after the first trimester?"<BR/><BR/>I disagree with the framing of your question. But, even accepting it, I think access to those types of abortions would be more readily accessible if those opposed to repo rights did not demonize the procedure,those that provide it, and those women that choose to undergo it. Such an extreme position does nothing to prevent a situation such as the one here. I think both 'sides' agree a situation like this one should never happen."<BR/><BR/>Actually, one 'side' agrees that the abortion shouldn't have been attempted in the first place. Your suggestion that we pro-lifers stop demonizing abortion is very nice. Would you like it if men told you to stop demonizing rape and rapists? How about we stop demonizing child molesters?<BR/><BR/>"whew...I have survived the foray so far...my college poli sci message board was much worse!"<BR/><BR/>Of course you survived. No one is going to reach through your computer screen and beat you up. Besides, I don't think we aspire to be "worse" here. There's no reason for it.Laura(southernxyl)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02880277733341078157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-77964040583791408632009-02-06T16:24:00.000-06:002009-02-06T16:24:00.000-06:00I also think it a poor argument that the woman has...<I>I also think it a poor argument that the woman has complete say over the child's life because the child is entirely within her body.</I><BR/><BR/>I once heard a man (he wasn't talking to me, but this is not a passed on story of something someone else told me about), I once heard a man say, when challenged about beating his wife, that what happened in his house was no one's business but his own.<BR/><BR/>I see this as nearly parallel... in both situations the supposed right to hurt someone depends on where that person lives.<BR/><BR/>I'm all for a woman controlling her own body, but abortion so often seems to be an insistence that she doesn't have to control anything.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-92114810945934830112009-02-06T16:20:00.000-06:002009-02-06T16:20:00.000-06:00The dicussion of Murder is inherently an issue bet...<I>The dicussion of Murder is inherently an issue between men and their God. Left to their own, all men and all women see murder as a convenience and a tool to get what they want.</I><BR/><BR/>Bullshit.Original Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01714345479248980398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-30599023663165563452009-02-06T16:01:00.000-06:002009-02-06T16:01:00.000-06:00The dicussion of Murder is inherently an issue bet...The dicussion of Murder is inherently an issue between men and their God. Left to their own, all men and all women see murder as a convenience and a tool to get what they want. The church has had the Raison D'etre of telling men what God has to say about our Evil thoughts and identifying murder as a sin. Since 100 years ago the church has abandoned its role so as to appear more educated than mere Bible Thumpers. Then social darwinism became a "Science" and no one said that's a sin leading to approval of many murders for convience and to get what men and women want under cover as an everyday right of the strong favored group in power. Unless the apostate Church speaks up for God's scriptural identification of murder as sin, there is no safety left in this world.traditionalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05706120413005530014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-10860466128018277052009-02-06T14:04:00.000-06:002009-02-06T14:04:00.000-06:00To go along with what a few others have pointed ou...To go along with what a few others have pointed out....I once heard an abortion clinic owner admit that if people saw the results of an actual abortion, it would end the practice.Donnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05298949062773413795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70450883393366742072009-02-06T13:45:00.000-06:002009-02-06T13:45:00.000-06:00Simon,Yeah, I wasn't as smooth as I would have lik...Simon,<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I wasn't as smooth as I would have liked to have been at oral argument. But Easterbrook did ask the US Attorney: what about our precedent holding that the factual basis for a guilty plea has to come from the defendant's actual admissions in the guilty plea? Yet, no mention or discussion of this precedent in the court's written opinion ruling against my client. [The reason it's so important for the factual basis to come from the defendant's actual admissions in the guilty plea is to ensure the voluntariness of the plea. See McCarthy v. US, 394 US 459 (1969) and US v. Frye, 738 F.2d 196 (7th Cir. 1984) -- the precedent I cited and discussed at length in the briefs which the court conveniently ignored in its written opinion.]<BR/><BR/>After Easterbrook asked that question of the US Attorney at oral argument, I thought we were golden.John Kindleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13897832130417651667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-38002994146970527562009-02-06T13:44:00.000-06:002009-02-06T13:44:00.000-06:00I also think it a poor argument that the woman has...I also think it a poor argument that the woman has complete say over the child's life because the child is entirely within her body. What's the average life expectancy in the United States? Seventy-eight years?<BR/><BR/>Let's see...<BR/><BR/>78 x 12 + 9 = 945<BR/><BR/>So, we've got an average of 945 months to live.<BR/><BR/>And we're each in our mother's body for 9 of those, less than one percent of the total.<BR/><BR/>So because she has the person in her body for 9 months, the mother gets to decide whether or not the person will ever get to see the other 936?<BR/><BR/>How about instead we tell the mother that she only has to carry the person for 9 months and after that, she can walk away from him for the other 936 if that's what she wants?Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-32690360960497130782009-02-06T13:28:00.000-06:002009-02-06T13:28:00.000-06:00Sycloria Williams was expecting a Disney abortion...Sycloria Williams was expecting a Disney abortion.KCFleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124201866124646626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28721167688868748742009-02-06T13:18:00.000-06:002009-02-06T13:18:00.000-06:00Criminey. We can't choose to smoke or choose to us...Criminey. We can't choose to smoke or choose to use old style light bulbs but a fetus we can undo, CTRL+Z style.<BR/><BR/>Fine.<BR/><BR/>But suing because your choice to macerate a proto-human <I>looks icky</I> just seems so goddamned arrogant and immature ate the same time, one is led to suspect that the plaintiff and her lawyer are both high school juniors.KCFleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124201866124646626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-74668353971812590062009-02-06T13:04:00.000-06:002009-02-06T13:04:00.000-06:00I get profoundly tired at the overuse of the word ...I get profoundly tired at the overuse of the word "choice" to justify abortion. Everything a person does is a choice. What does that have to do with whether something is legal or moral?<BR/><BR/>What if we said that from now on, husbands have the "choice" of whether or not to stone their wives to death for adultery? Would it make sense to tell a husband that his decision has profound moral implications and that he must "rise to the challenge?"<BR/><BR/>That would be utterly ridiculous. Where is the justification for having a choice as to whether or not you get to kill somebody else?<BR/><BR/>And no, one might as well not even start with the, "it's the woman's body" line. There's another body, the child's body. What about that body? <BR/><BR/>What a morally hollow society we live in that we allow this to go on and frame it in the way that we do.Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1408861760503991782009-02-06T13:02:00.000-06:002009-02-06T13:02:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-27562258599420489842009-02-06T12:55:00.000-06:002009-02-06T12:55:00.000-06:00Althouse said..."I know my position seems impossib...Althouse said...<BR/>"I know my position seems impossible to people who are convinced that abortion is murder."<BR/><BR/>I am convinced that abortion is murder, and I understand your position and do not think it impossible on the face of it.<BR/><BR/>It is, however, conditional on a couple of premises that I am convinced are false in most cases:<BR/><BR/>" I also only think the decision must be made by a person who has a high enough level of understanding and reason to think competently about what she is doing. "<BR/><BR/> --- Given that women undergoing abortions are under great stress and strong motivation for self-deception, and given the well-known motivation and efforts of abortion providers to shield them from total understanding, I submit that a very large number of women undergoing abortion are NOT thinking competently about what they are doing. <BR/><BR/>(And that's before you even raise an argument that no person with an intact sense of right and wrong could ever commit an abortion if they truly understood what it entailed.)<BR/><BR/> --- "I would like it if the right to have an abortion fostered personal responsibility: Here is a profound moral choice you must make: Rise to the challenge."<BR/><BR/> *Is* it your observation that the right to an abortion has fostered personal responsibility? I don't think it has.bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19206980573837703312009-02-06T12:54:00.000-06:002009-02-06T12:54:00.000-06:00In this "modern" society, isn't an abortion about ...In this "modern" society, isn't an abortion about the same as buying a dressed out chicken in a supermarket, but recoiling in horror at the thought of a slaughterhouse? It's all anonymous and sanitized.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-75371088996082363222009-02-06T12:37:00.000-06:002009-02-06T12:37:00.000-06:00feministj said..."I don't think all botched aborti...feministj said...<BR/>"<I>I don't think all botched abortions are murder, but my gut feeling was that this one crossed the line into something other than an abortion...based on the description I read.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Well, I suppose that if we stipulate, arguendo, that abortion is not itself murder, I agree that it follows that not all botched abortions are murder, because there are presumably many possible outcomes that come under the broad header "botched." One of those outcomes - the outcome here - is a live birth. A <I>birth</I>. Even if one accepts the morality of abortion in utero (or even partially in utero, as in IDX), if the child is actually <I>born</I>, I can't imagine what basis one could have for not concluding that to then kill it is homicide ("murder" may be the wrong term, since I'm not sure that one has malice aforethought in that situation; manslaughter might be closer to it, depending on one's point of view.)<BR/><BR/>"<I>Sometimes when a question isn't easy, '18 inches' is all there is to be able to make a decision. </I>"<BR/><BR/>Is that really enough, though?<BR/><BR/>"<I>[M]any pro-choice people think abortion itself is morally wrong, but support a woman's right to make that choice.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Indeed, that's where Althouse has positioned herself, so reasonable people can obviously take that position. Nevertheless, I think situations like this tend to demonstrate the frayed edges of that position; it's very hard for me to understand why a matter of seconds and inches makes the difference between homicide and choice.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-54606090922009947812009-02-06T12:31:00.000-06:002009-02-06T12:31:00.000-06:00"formulating to"? I hate when an editing job goes ..."formulating to"? I hate when an editing job goes awry!Darcyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05642443487136176511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-68953421497522973132009-02-06T12:28:00.000-06:002009-02-06T12:28:00.000-06:00(Since November, I've particularly been trying to ...(Since November, I've particularly been trying to read everything that Judge Wood writes because I assume she's a frontrunner for the next opening on the Supreme Court. As a rule of thumb, if Sykes or Easterbrook write, I read.)Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.com