tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post7634739920070479908..comments2024-03-19T08:42:58.953-05:00Comments on Althouse: "A proposal by the Prince George’s County Board of Education to copyright work created by staff and students for school could mean..."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-38973214297178585862013-02-04T08:24:21.552-06:002013-02-04T08:24:21.552-06:00Teaching is a service profession. Teachers are pai...Teaching is a service profession. Teachers are paid to teach children. They are not being paid to create original materials, though some of them may do that as a means to the end of teaching students. I don't see why the school should own any of their work.Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-68147811622663032312013-02-04T07:44:41.504-06:002013-02-04T07:44:41.504-06:00Hush! You can't get all radical and start talk...Hush! You can't get all radical and start talking sense about copyright! That displeases the corporate overlords.Susannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05836224575041085431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-62338904917638155632013-02-03T23:52:21.621-06:002013-02-03T23:52:21.621-06:00Robin,
Creation of a lesson plan would be within ...Robin,<br /><br /><i>Creation of a lesson plan would be within the scope of employment of a teacher with little doubt.</i><br /><br />Of course it would. But would copyright in an entire suite of course materials, created by a teacher outside working hours and without using school resources, inhere in the school board? And what happens if the teacher is using the materials (that s/he developed entirely on his/her own time) at more than one school? At a private school as well as a public school? Michelle Dulak Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18041391162535875301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-10876730898875917082013-02-03T23:37:34.509-06:002013-02-03T23:37:34.509-06:00Bruce Hayden,
Look, Robin just used "copyrig...Bruce Hayden,<br /><br />Look, Robin just used "copyrighted" as a verb! Do tell him/her not to do that if s/he ever wants to get through a course in copyright. S/he might not realize. <br /><br />Michelle Dulak Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18041391162535875301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-18445284762845210542013-02-03T23:07:57.940-06:002013-02-03T23:07:57.940-06:00Creation of a lesson plan would be within the scop...Creation of a lesson plan would be within the scope of employment of a teacher with little doubt.<br /><br />However, a student's work cannot be copyrighted by the school district. That would be outright fraud by the school district if it attempted by notice or even worse registration to so claim. US Copyright statute and caselaw is very clear on this.Cincinnatushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10424218376882403880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-84058177362193940712013-02-03T22:15:36.034-06:002013-02-03T22:15:36.034-06:00Bruce Hayden,
Careless on my part? Sorry. See it ...Bruce Hayden,<br /><br /><i>Careless on my part? Sorry. See it so often, and saw it on the first line of the NYT article, that I made a mistake. Sorry. </i><br /><br />Enh, people making mistakes I get. People gently but publicly lecturing other people about how if they're taking a course in law, they mustn't ever, ever make particular mistakes <i>that they haven't actually made</i> is infuriating. <br /><br />What ever gave you the idea that I was likely to be as careless as the <i>NYT</i>? I mean, I have written for them a few times, but I did proofread my own stuff.Michelle Dulak Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18041391162535875301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-58460757285984747482013-02-03T20:34:26.226-06:002013-02-03T20:34:26.226-06:00If the verb is not "copyright," what was...<i>If the verb is not "copyright," what was your very gentle, very condescending lecture to me all about? </i><br /><br />Careless on my part? Sorry. See it so often, and saw it on the first line of the NYT article, that I made a mistake. Sorry. Bruce Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10815293023158025662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28968644061571877872013-02-03T20:20:10.749-06:002013-02-03T20:20:10.749-06:00Bruce Hayden,
Sorry to double-post on the subject...Bruce Hayden,<br /><br />Sorry to double-post on the subject, but I'm irritated.<br /><br />In the phrase "claim copyright in," which word is being used as a verb? <br /><br />If the verb is not "copyright," what was your very gentle, very condescending lecture to me all about? Michelle Dulak Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18041391162535875301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91024879407083330802013-02-03T20:01:29.341-06:002013-02-03T20:01:29.341-06:00cubanbob,
I wouldn't push the example of the ...cubanbob,<br /><br /><i>I wouldn't push the example of the teacher at home grading too far since that could open the employer to an overtime labor issue.</i><br /><br />That applies to hourly employees, not salaried ones. You don't get overtime pay if you are a public school teacher.Michelle Dulak Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18041391162535875301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-31632021829394987682013-02-03T17:52:51.788-06:002013-02-03T17:52:51.788-06:00Art schools have been doing this for generations. ...Art schools have been doing this for generations. Usually BFA candidates are 'asked' to give a work, chosen by the faculty, from their BFA show to the school. There are some schools who reserve the 'right' to 'ask' for works right off the easel. The unspoken rule is that if you say no... you graduate with a BA, not a BFA and usually that means no grad school.F. A. Alsbachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08270239407396223095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-81098687808396144482013-02-03T17:52:43.257-06:002013-02-03T17:52:43.257-06:00The school having copyright of the students work i...The school having copyright of the students work is BS.<br /><br />Music teacher: Jay the school is short on funds so your assignment this semester is to compose a symphony.<br /><br />Jay: Who owns the copyright?<br /><br />Music teacher: Why the school of course.<br /><br />Jay: I won't do it unless I own the copyright.<br /><br />Music teacher: You will fail the class if you don't do your assignment.<br /><br />http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-657713.htmlBob Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11864247983108770885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28516228288464340282013-02-03T17:48:49.402-06:002013-02-03T17:48:49.402-06:00Bruce Hayden,
If you are taking a copyright cours...Bruce Hayden,<br /><br /><i>If you are taking a copyright course, and, esp. if there is any grading, keep in mind that "copyright" is not a verb when describing any work created over the last 20-30 years in the U.S., and much longer in Europe and much of the rest of the world. </i><br /><br />I did not use "copyright" as a verb in the sentence you quoted; I wrote<br /><br /><i> I can't see how a school board can claim copyright in a child's work[.]</i><br /><br />If that word isn't functioning as a noun there, I'll gladly eat the dictionary of your choice. I'll own my mistakes, but I balk at owning others'.<br /><br />Michelle Dulak Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18041391162535875301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-59843543101001154902013-02-03T17:48:10.052-06:002013-02-03T17:48:10.052-06:00I wouldn't push the example of the teacher at ...I wouldn't push the example of the teacher at home grading too far since that could open the employer to an overtime labor issue. As for copyright ownership to prove ownership an application has to be filed and properly documented less it is deemed invalid. Even if unpublished the claiment has to show evidence of creation or assignment of rights. cubanbobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03746305669005611456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-63353422055494499832013-02-03T17:30:43.773-06:002013-02-03T17:30:43.773-06:00So if you work for government everything you do be...So if you work for government everything you do belongs to them. Consider what happens if Robert Cook's ilk (and Democrats eventually) get there way and there are no more businesses seperate from government. Everything you produce belongs to them. <br /><br />A glorious future. No doubt our great-great grandchildren will be highly motivated to say the least.testhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09478829894294731159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91505561080766771382013-02-03T17:05:05.828-06:002013-02-03T17:05:05.828-06:00And the students? They're required to be there...<i>And the students? They're required to be there, and then the school owns their work. What are they? Slaves?<br /><br /></i>Bears repeating. Spot on.MadisonManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01212179466758420208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-35129193646909548842013-02-03T16:22:10.386-06:002013-02-03T16:22:10.386-06:00Freeman,
"I don't know if we live in Cra...Freeman,<br /><br />"<i>I don't know if we live in Crazy Land</i>"<br /><br />Of course you know. Kirk Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05921711310191924997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-62378921328459862052013-02-03T16:00:34.129-06:002013-02-03T16:00:34.129-06:00I don't think the use of the iPad is significa...I don't think the use of the iPad is significant. I think, in terms of capital, that should be considered trivial. (Whether or not the law regards it as such, I do not know.) Say a novelist with a day job gets an idea at the office and scribbles it down on a sticky note. Should the company own the idea because the company owns the pen and the sticky note? Only in Crazy Land. (Again, I don't know if we live in Crazy Land. Maybe we do.)Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4828751267522379312013-02-03T15:50:35.441-06:002013-02-03T15:50:35.441-06:00"... while using apps on iPads that are schoo...<i>"... while using apps on iPads that are school property, ..."</i><br /><br />That is a significant specification, no?Hagarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653025261513705773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-50891788089454474262013-02-03T15:45:33.814-06:002013-02-03T15:45:33.814-06:00And the students? They're required to be there...And the students? They're required to be there, and then the school owns their work. What are they? Slaves?Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-59666172134454792452013-02-03T15:44:37.764-06:002013-02-03T15:44:37.764-06:00So the teachers are supposed to be serfs now? That...So the teachers are supposed to be serfs now? That'll help recruit the top teaching talent.Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-75827679635357836592013-02-03T15:34:17.133-06:002013-02-03T15:34:17.133-06:00Teachers are a bit different in that they are expe...Teachers are a bit different in that they are expected to do lesson plans, grading papers, etc. at home.<br />However, I would think that if they develop something that there is no expectation that they should even know what it is, then that would belong to them.Hagarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653025261513705773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-45592611855794109362013-02-03T14:56:59.535-06:002013-02-03T14:56:59.535-06:00Anyway, the Prince George County thing. I can'...<i>Anyway, the Prince George County thing. I can't see how a school board can claim <b>copyright</b> in a child's work. It's not work-for-hire, as the students aren't paid and couldn't contract anyway. </i><br /><br />If you are taking a copyright course, and, esp. if there is any grading, keep in mind that "copyright" is not a verb when describing any work created over the last 20-30 years in the U.S., and much longer in Europe and much of the rest of the world. <br /><br />Prior to the mid 1970s, copyright in this country only existed when certain formalities were observed, such as fixation of the copyright notice and ultimately registration and deposit. In the late 1980s, the U.S. joined the Berne Convention treaty, and, as a result, since then, copyright is automatic upon fixation of original expression in a tangible medium (meaning that once you write it down, or key it into your computer, what you wrote is protected by copyright). The formalities still exist, but now are limited to providing some additional benefits to U.S. citizens and legal residents (foreigners from other Berne signatories get these advantages w/o our formalities). And, the period between the old copyright law and Berne compliant copyright law of about a decade was transitional and is termed the "Decennial" period due to when it was enacted. <br /><br />You routinely see this mis-usage of the word "copyright" as a verb, including in the first paragraph of the NYT article. Your problem is that since you are taking a class on copyright, you should make sure that you aren't caught misusing it, esp. in class and on tests. Bruce Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10815293023158025662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4249127293588245742013-02-03T14:45:01.099-06:002013-02-03T14:45:01.099-06:00It's important to keep them inside the system,...It's important to keep them inside the system, teaching their wards that the government needs to possess everything in order to ensure that no one gets more than her share. <br /><br />They can suppress anything that they don't like.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88368903276272611622013-02-03T14:42:46.432-06:002013-02-03T14:42:46.432-06:00HOw much filtration is required to determine that ...<i>HOw much filtration is required to determine that Windows 8 for dummies belongs to Wiley & Sons?<br />Could I write my own For Dummies books and not go through Wiley & SOns to publish them? </i><br /><br />Answer to the first question is that no filtration is required. First, because ownership of a copyright is a separate question from whether reproduction occurred, and secondly, since we are talking verbatim (or close) copying, you never get to filtration, which is really only relevant in determining whether or not something is a derivative work, and, really, only then, when the derivation isn't fairly obvious. (In other words, during litigation, P claims that D's work is derived from P's, and D denies that during litigation, and has some non-frivolous reasons to support that denial of derivation). <br /><br />Second question - yes, you could write your own Dummies book, but would likely have trademark problems if you used the "Dummies" title. The mere concept of such a book is considered a high enough level of abstraction that it is not protected by copyright.<br /><br />But, if you took the ideas from the original book, it would depend on how low the level of copying was. But, keep in mind that how things are organized, broken into chapters, etc. is considered original expression, and, therefore potentially subject to copyright protection. So, if you ever do want to do this, it can be done, but you need to work closely with an IP attorney to make sure that it is legal. Bruce Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10815293023158025662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37926598315321246172013-02-03T14:30:34.796-06:002013-02-03T14:30:34.796-06:00I dont actually think we are disagreeing much. Exc...<i>I dont actually think we are disagreeing much. Except with your assertion that INFO is free. Only if it abides by the terms of copyright or law. Using To Be or not to be may have been a bad example consering Shakespeare is generally considered in general use. But Random House's copy of the book published by Random House may not be (unless they are giving it away for free that is or the copyright ran out on their copy of the work and they are no longer publishing). So if Aaron Swartz distributed Random House's copy of Hamlet (in PDF form) that was on a server somewhere, he would not be entitled to do so.</i><br /><br />Back to my implied question. Is there a copyright in Random House's version of Hamlet? We don't know right now what someone did to create this version of the work, when it was done, whether they conformed to the proper formalities (if done more than 20-30 years ago), and whether Random House actually owns the copyright, or has sufficient license rights to sue. <br /><br />We do know a couple of things though. First, the original work, if created today, would be protected by copyright, but since it was created some 400 years ago, any copyright in the original is long expired. I think that we can also say that many versions today of Shakespeare's works are derivative works with sufficient additional original expression to qualify for their own copyright. This may be in the form of editing, or maybe modernization of some of the language. <br /><br />I think that maybe the issue here is the use of the word "information". To me, in the context of copyright law, it means facts and original expression. Original expression is protected by copyright, but facts are not. And, ties go to not being protected (sometimes facts and expression are so closely tied that they cannot be separated, and in that case, are considered facts, and not expression). Part of the reason for the entire discussion of filtration and levels of abstraction comes from the fact that facts are not protected by copyright, and so have to be removed before looking for copying of original expression, which is protected. <br /><br />There are limits on copying, distributing, etc. facts, but not in copyright law. It only protects original expression. Nothing more. Some of the limits on distributing facts include Trade Secret laws, contracts, and sometimes even patent law. Bruce Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10815293023158025662noreply@blogger.com