tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post7412027993166410318..comments2024-03-18T21:20:41.963-05:00Comments on Althouse: "It’s time to steel ourselves for the heavily advertised Bush-and-Condi show at Annapolis...."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-77820112298177195822007-11-28T14:11:00.000-06:002007-11-28T14:11:00.000-06:00And besides, I thought you claimed Iraq is not a t...And besides, I thought you claimed <I>Iraq is not a threat to us</I>? <BR/><BR/>Can't have it both ways Freder.Fenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16734571593963330215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-49346264503307162452007-11-28T14:06:00.000-06:002007-11-28T14:06:00.000-06:00Freder: Let's add it up. Troops in combat zones in...Freder: <BR/><I>Let's add it up. Troops in combat zones in 2001: 0<BR/>Troops in combat zones in 2007: 250,000<BR/>Extra U.S. troops in danger: 250,000.</I><BR/><BR/>So its not math, b ut reading comprehension thats an issue for you. Remember, the claim you are trying to counter is:<BR/><BR/>"America faces fewer foreign threats today than it did when Bush took office."<BR/><BR/># of troops deployed is an orange to that apple.<BR/><BR/>You're welcome to try again....Fenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16734571593963330215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36082965702583658522007-11-28T03:02:00.000-06:002007-11-28T03:02:00.000-06:00As inane as some of the fdl commenters can be, an ...<I>As inane as some of the fdl commenters can be, an uncritical worship of all things Bush isn't any better.</I><BR/><BR/>Can you actually <B>name</B> someone who expresses "uncritical worship of all things Bush"? Besides Bush himself and his immediate confidants?<BR/><BR/>Nobody in this comment section falls into that category. Nobody at the major conservative magazines or newspapers. None of the leading bloggers. Not even Rush Limbaugh, for crying out loud.<BR/><BR/>Who are these straw men who uncritically support Bush? I can think of a lot of people who always support him over the <B>Democrats</B>, but that says more about the Democrats than it does about Bush!Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-10393890827005999712007-11-28T01:40:00.000-06:002007-11-28T01:40:00.000-06:00As inane as some of the fdl commenters can be, an ...<I>As inane as some of the fdl commenters can be, an uncritical worship of all things Bush isn't any better.</I><BR/><BR/>And I agree with that as well.Brenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02480180418373862524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70378446891895446872007-11-28T00:06:00.000-06:002007-11-28T00:06:00.000-06:00Beth, I was talking about our sensibilities. It's...Beth, I was talking about our sensibilities. It's human nature to expect other people to have the same sensibilities as we have.<BR/><BR/>Do you think that the average person who sympathizes with Palestinians and their plight is aware that they are denied citizenship and have not been offered to be taken in by other Arab nations? <BR/><BR/>Imagine the United States refusing to take in Christian Europeans. That would actually be analogous.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91623716789300555492007-11-27T23:14:00.000-06:002007-11-27T23:14:00.000-06:00That was a little too snippy. Let me spell it out ...That was a little too snippy. Let me spell it out a little more:<BR/><BR/>There are very few Palestinian refugees anymore. The very youngest -- the ones who were infants when Israel was established -- are sixty years old now. The overwhelming majority of them were *born* in Egypt, in Saudi Arabia, in Syria, in Jordan, in what is now called "Palestine" -- you name it. The camps they live in are called "refugee camps" for reasons of pure propaganda.<BR/><BR/>We're not asking the Syrians (to pick one example) to take in countless refugees. We're asking them to let countless people <B>born in Syria</B> -- many of whose parents and grandparents were ALSO born in Syria -- to <B>become Syrians</B>. America does that to everybody. If you're born here, presto, you're an American. The Palestinian "refugees" living here are almost all full American citizens now; the only exceptions are the ones who fled here in the 1940s and never bothered getting citizenship.<BR/><BR/>You're conflating the issue of letting long-term residents of a nation become citizens with the issue of taking in refugees. The two things aren't analogous. What obligation we have to the Iraqi people we are more than fulfilling by building a better country than they have ever had before. We have NO obligation to the people who opt to cut and run instead of staying and helping. I'm sorry they feel they can't live in Iraq, but that doesn't mean they get to live in America. Not our problem, really.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-38670703961259999652007-11-27T22:58:00.000-06:002007-11-27T22:58:00.000-06:00Exactly! Like we allow substantial numbers of Iraq...<I>Exactly! Like we allow substantial numbers of Iraqi refugees to immigrate to the U.S. </I><BR/><BR/>Say what? Iraqis HAVE their own country. Maybe you've heard of it. It is called "Iraq".Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24463897657664580292007-11-27T22:42:00.000-06:002007-11-27T22:42:00.000-06:00Synova, I'm well aware of the Arab hypocrisy in th...Synova, I'm well aware of the Arab hypocrisy in their treatment of the Palestinians. I took issue with your comment "because that's what we would do" because it makes no sense. Yes, we allow immigration. But we also let politics drive our policies, and we don't always do the right thing.<BR/><BR/>Since we invaded Iraq, Arab nations have been taking in hordes of Iraqi refugees who've fled the violence. We, on the other hand, have let in only a few thousand. Why? It would look really, really bad if the people we're congratulating ourselves for liberating were pouring into our immigration system. So what we do is sometimes laudable, and sometimes not.Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774002797359859550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22515035022060403672007-11-27T22:40:00.000-06:002007-11-27T22:40:00.000-06:00Watching Venezuela is like watching a train wreck ...Watching Venezuela is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. <BR/><BR/>I can't think of anything that would help. Maybe if *everyone* in the world started to publicly oppose Chavez he'd get a clue, but he might just cash in on being persecuted and strengthen his position.<BR/><BR/>Isolation, economically and politically, hasn't seemed to work *at all* with Cuba so I can't see it working with Chavez.<BR/><BR/>We could boycott all oil from Venezuela. <BR/><BR/>Or we could encourage American tourism there and offer lots of spots in our college economic departments.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4746299890680370832007-11-27T22:31:00.000-06:002007-11-27T22:31:00.000-06:00Oh for...But we *do* let Mexicans come across our ...Oh for...<BR/><BR/>But we *do* let Mexicans come across our border and we *do* let those from the middle east, like Palestinians, who come here become *citizens*. And yes, Iraqis too. I wasn't aware of a huge population of Iraqis living in our country while denied citizenship.<BR/><BR/>Or do you really *really* not see the difference between Arab states holding Palestinians in deliberate limbo and the way our sensibilities treat refugees?<BR/><BR/>Because lord knows we *do* assimilate refugees. The little mid-west town my parents live in is now predominantly Swedish and Sudanese. They even have a halal meat market.<BR/><BR/>Not even the nasty mean conservatives who think that illegal immigrants ought to go through legal processes oppose legal immigration and naturalizing just about anyone who wants to be a citizen.<BR/><BR/>Did you not *realize* that Palestinians living in Arab states were not given that option? On purpose?<BR/><BR/>I figured that most people didn't. It makes a difference in understanding the conflict, trying to figure out why refugee communities still exist after all these years and just why Palestinians still have it as bad as they do.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86300533490571970592007-11-27T21:21:00.000-06:002007-11-27T21:21:00.000-06:00Thanks, b, for the kind words. If Iraq suddenly be...Thanks, b, for the kind words. <BR/><BR/><I>If Iraq suddenly became a flamingly successful Democracy overnight, there wouldn't be enough space to print all of the hatred that would STILL descend on Bush from haters on the left.</I><BR/><BR/>So far, it isn't a flamingly successful democracy. So I'll hold off judgment on how the left will react until that happens. Democracy isn't by itself the best outcome. We should all be hoping fervently right now that the democracy of Venezuala doesn't democratically vote itself into tyranny by affirming Hugo Chavez as president for life. Democracy in Algeria resulted in an Islamic theocracy. Democracy isn't going to fix the problem of Israel and Palestine.<BR/><BR/>As inane as some of the fdl commenters can be, an uncritical worship of all things Bush isn't any better.Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774002797359859550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-40422334369309308652007-11-27T21:18:00.001-06:002007-11-27T21:18:00.001-06:00Or is Math a problem for you instead?Well for me i...<I>Or is Math a problem for you instead?</I><BR/><BR/>Well for me it isn't, apparently it is for you and Fen. <BR/><BR/>Let's add it up. Troops in combat zones in 2001: 0<BR/><BR/>Troops in combat zones in 2007: 250,000<BR/><BR/>Extra U.S. troops in danger: 250,000.<BR/><BR/>How do you and Fen measure these kinds of things? In my book the mission actually has to be accomplished (strutting around on the deck of an aircraft and having a banner that says it just doesn't cut it), before it counts.Freder Fredersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01498410102809290399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-67971921339136344612007-11-27T21:18:00.000-06:002007-11-27T21:18:00.000-06:00Because that's what we would do.Exactly! Like we a...<I>Because that's what we would do.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly! Like we allow substantial numbers of Iraqi refugees to immigrate to the U.S. <BR/><BR/>No, I'm wrong. That's what we don't do.Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774002797359859550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-42910966632191620152007-11-27T21:09:00.000-06:002007-11-27T21:09:00.000-06:00I wonder how many people actually realize that the...I wonder how many people actually realize that the Palestinians are not allowed to become citizens of other Arab states.<BR/><BR/>I think that most of us automatically figure that *of course* they'd get to be citizens if they wanted to because *of course* the other Arab states would take them in.<BR/><BR/>Because that's what we would do.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-34496614455493208612007-11-27T20:50:00.000-06:002007-11-27T20:50:00.000-06:00Did you read the text quoted in the selection, whe...<I>Did you read the text quoted in the selection, where Bush is quoted opining that if the Palestinians just get some democracy, those border issues won't mean so much to them? Jesus, if that's true, he really is foolish.</I><BR/><BR/>What do you expect him to do -- tell the truth? Because I don't think starting off the peace talks by saying "Peace will not be achieved until the Palestinians realize they will never be allowed back into Israel, so they might as well stop trying to kill the Israelis and figure out to do with the land they've got" would be terribly productive.<BR/><BR/>Besides, it is amazing how often the supposedly vital issues -- like "reclaiming" a land that you've never actually lived in -- fades into non-importance once you actually have some political control over the land you ARE living in. One of the reasons the Palestinians are obsessed with reclaiming the land of Israel is that they're powerless in the countries they're stuck in now. They imagine it'll be different if only they can get rid of the Jews.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86508777132900305892007-11-27T20:20:00.000-06:002007-11-27T20:20:00.000-06:00Beth,You are one of my favorite commenters here.Th...Beth,<BR/>You are one of my favorite commenters here.<BR/><BR/>That said, you said:<BR/><BR/><I>That's not the same as wishing for failure.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, it is.<BR/><BR/>If Iraq suddenly became a flamingly successful Democracy overnight, there wouldn't be enough space to print all of the hatred that would STILL descend on Bush from haters on the left.<BR/><BR/>You can disagree, yes. But c,mon, Beth. Read the last 7 posts on Firedoglake and then please explain to me how all of the commenters there - and especially the BDS mentally challenged Jane Hamsher - are not so full of hate that they can no longer see straight.<BR/><BR/>Which, kinda makes their whole "world view" invalid, doncha think?Brenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02480180418373862524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-7255956349983683502007-11-27T19:45:00.000-06:002007-11-27T19:45:00.000-06:00Ann, yes, I read it. I don't get from it that anyo...Ann, yes, I read it. I don't get from it that anyone wants the peace process to fail. Did you read the text quoted in the selection, where Bush is quoted opining that if the Palestinians just get some democracy, those border issues won't mean so much to them? Jesus, if that's true, he really is foolish. <BR/><BR/>I took the firedoglake blog entry to be a jaded, but probably accurate perspective that there's just not a lot to look forward to here. If they enjoy a few pokes at Bush along the way, so what? That's not the same as wishing for failure.Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774002797359859550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-85716765308834637342007-11-27T18:30:00.000-06:002007-11-27T18:30:00.000-06:00Hey Freder, rather than waste your time and energy...Hey Freder, rather than waste your time and energy on another good ad hom attack, why not show us how Rev is wrong?<BR/><BR/>You have <I>the cognitive ability to log onto the internet (and read and write no less)</I>, yes? Shouldn't be hard for you to refute:<BR/><BR/>"America faces fewer foreign threats today than it did when Bush took office."<BR/><BR/>Or is Math a problem for you instead?Fenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16734571593963330215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-7836616428070351682007-11-27T16:34:00.000-06:002007-11-27T16:34:00.000-06:00What really scares me, is that there are people, p...<I>What really scares me, is that there are people, people who own a computer and apparently at least have the cognitive ability to log onto the internet (and read and write no less), who actually believe this.</I><BR/><BR/>Smart people can be scary to the less intelligent. That's why nerds get beaten up in junior high. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-81761382970931146022007-11-27T16:23:00.000-06:002007-11-27T16:23:00.000-06:00America faces fewer foreign threats today than it ...<I>America faces fewer foreign threats today than it did when Bush took office. By the only standard that matters, his foreign policy has been a success.</I><BR/><BR/>What really scares me, is that there are people, people who own a computer and apparently at least have the cognitive ability to log onto the internet (and read and write no less), who actually believe this.Freder Fredersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01498410102809290399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-25903654328652242802007-11-27T16:13:00.000-06:002007-11-27T16:13:00.000-06:00Wouldn't it be nice if wingnuts would/could actual...<I>Wouldn't it be nice if wingnuts would/could actually argue that Bush's foreign policy has been a success, instead of just accusing liberals of "rooting for" his obvious failure?</I><BR/><BR/>America faces fewer foreign threats today than it did when Bush took office. By the only standard that matters, his foreign policy has been a success.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-85688515316746790252007-11-27T16:12:00.000-06:002007-11-27T16:12:00.000-06:00Mindlessly hawking his patented gun barrel democra...<I>Mindlessly hawking his patented gun barrel democracy as the curative for all of the world’s woes, Bush will, no doubt, swagger around the conference, spritzing everything and everyone in the room with White Phosphorus-Glo™ and OxiBomb™, insisting that just a dab of his miracle product is what’s needed to clean up all that spilled blood in the Middle East.</I><BR/><BR/>Apologies for not being able to make that tiny. It's as far as I got before turning away, there's only so much auto-fellation a guy can be expected to witness. Had to leave before any got on me.Chip Ahoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597726289890879627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-51896899528313646742007-11-27T15:59:00.000-06:002007-11-27T15:59:00.000-06:00I am not sure why Israel even shows up for these t...<I>I am not sure why Israel even shows up for these things.</I><BR/><BR/>I suspect for one reason, and one reason only. To placate the U.S. administration. <BR/><BR/>{snark}You know, the US administration who, if they would only lean on the Israelis, could wrap this mess up over the weekend.{/snark}Original Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01714345479248980398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-12026174292687424602007-11-27T15:48:00.000-06:002007-11-27T15:48:00.000-06:00I am not sure why Israel even shows up for these t...I am not sure why Israel even shows up for these things. I mean, the Israelis promise land for peace, the Arab's promise peace for land, then they say that they cannot control their own people when the rockets and mortars and suicide bombers start up again.<BR/><BR/>There is considerable money to be made in blowing up Israel. Lots of dollars, and it beats teaching school for a living I guess.<BR/><BR/>It will not change.<BR/><BR/>TreyTMinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07221261635305430323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-82432988936896013602007-11-27T15:18:00.000-06:002007-11-27T15:18:00.000-06:00and actually try and learn from my mistakes.How ma...<I>and actually try and learn from my mistakes.</I><BR/><BR/>How many websites are you banned from now, Freder? Have you learned anything?Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03071928294799081845noreply@blogger.com