tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post7042165821392900698..comments2024-03-18T21:02:33.523-05:00Comments on Althouse: "Large numbers of out-of-state protesters are expected to join those from Michigan."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger213125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-7372653337749082782012-12-12T07:04:59.948-06:002012-12-12T07:04:59.948-06:00leslyn said...
Because the employer will often m...leslyn said... <br /><br /><i>Because the employer will often make decisions that are personal and have nothing to do with the work or workforce.</i><br /><br />This can be true, and was true in the 1930's which are famous for union/management strife in the S.E. Michigan area. One of the most famous is the "Battle of the Overpass" where Ford's corporate (Harry Bennett's) thugs battle union thugs...neither having clean hands in the affair. <br /><br />Remember that Ford was the guy who doubled industrial pay and implemented the 40 hour workweek...<br /><br />Kirk Parker said... <br /><br /><i>... do you really mean to suggest that unions and governments aren't just as liable to do this?</i> <br /><br />Certainly they are, and the "Battle of the Overpass" was such an instance as well...where the UAW was using the proposal of a 6 hour 30 hour workweek and a 33% wage increase as an organizing campaign, not negotiation. The UAW thugs were as violent as the Ford/Bennett thugs. The thug & unrealistic promise organizing campaigns continued across the state, and even after Bennett was fired by Henry Ford II (Hank the Deuce) in 1945. <br /><br />The actions by IBEW "activists" in Lansing yesterday are more of the same, violence in furtherance of a personal cause of the union administrative leadership...it is all about dues and the compulsion to collect them for the Agency Shops. IIRC IBEW was an active proponent of Proposal 2 as well, a fundamental attempt to super cede both state and federal labor laws, and by pass the legislature, executive, judicial branches of government, not to mention the federal NLRB. A leadership decision to reach too far. Period. <br /><br />As a skilled trades union with active apprenticeship programs (unless they've dropped them recently) they had no reason for this activity except the personal aims of the leadership. I find that to be an embarrassment. <br />Aridoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18345930150667529742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-54372211454585180422012-12-12T06:46:48.139-06:002012-12-12T06:46:48.139-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Aridoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18345930150667529742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-61277890034578798742012-12-11T22:19:21.963-06:002012-12-11T22:19:21.963-06:00leslyn,
"Because the employer will often mak...leslyn,<br /><br />"<i>Because the employer will often make decisions that are personal and have nothing to do with the work or workforce. </i>"<br /><br />So?<br /><br />And further, do you really mean to suggest that unions and governments aren't just as liable to do this?Kirk Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05921711310191924997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-54187180325657422392012-12-11T22:01:49.447-06:002012-12-11T22:01:49.447-06:00Because the employer will often make decisions tha...Because the employer will often make decisions that are personal and have nothing to do with the work or workforce.leslynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04976589297868178854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-40416966114043659752012-12-11T18:25:54.059-06:002012-12-11T18:25:54.059-06:00EMD - No the steelworker can NOT. Unions get thems...EMD - No the steelworker can NOT. Unions get themselves the position of the ONLY entity that negotiate. That's how they can claim free-riding. One "benefits" from the union's negotiations, but they are the only ones authorized to negotiate for ANYBODY...<br /><br />What's wrong with at will employment? It gives the employee equal rights to quit at will. One can negotiate a contract with a company for terms if one wishes.<br /><br />What's wrong with being let go for any reason? As long as the company isn't illegally discriminating or otherwise acting against the law (and that's covered by state and federal laws) the employer should have the right to let any employee go for any reason. Incompetence, budgetary reasons, whatever.kimschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742219426291395677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-82126234418629012322012-12-11T15:34:53.994-06:002012-12-11T15:34:53.994-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Known Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029003649395214104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-49758411500103889142012-12-11T15:34:49.820-06:002012-12-11T15:34:49.820-06:00Well, it seemed to me the thread was about union e...<i>Well, it seemed to me the thread was about union employment affected by right-to-work laws, not non-union employment, which generally is employment at-will.</i><br /><br />A distinction without a true difference. <br /><br />Or can a steel worker not negotiate on his own behalf ... ever? Known Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029003649395214104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64880009807413576052012-12-11T15:09:50.033-06:002012-12-11T15:09:50.033-06:00Rusty said...
"A union just makes it harder ...Rusty said...<br /><br />"A union just makes it harder to remove an employee for cause....You are not now, nor have you ever been guaranteed a job."<br />True...A union requires that certain procedures of due process be followed in removal for cause. If supervisors find them onerous or neglect to pursue them, that's their problem. THEN, employees believe they can game the system. Because they can. <br /><br />But if due process is followed, then as day follows the night appropriate action can be taken. And upheld. <br /><br />You get the work force you are willing to accept. That is true in non-union as well as union employment.leslynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04976589297868178854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-77792579263380419002012-12-11T15:03:20.743-06:002012-12-11T15:03:20.743-06:00Alex,
BLT. On whole wheat. Lightly toasted.
Bu...Alex,<br /><br />BLT. On whole wheat. Lightly toasted.<br /><br />But I offered to make YOU one.leslynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04976589297868178854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78072180360591051642012-12-11T15:02:18.915-06:002012-12-11T15:02:18.915-06:00EMD said...
What difference does it make?
Well,...EMD said... <br /><br /><i>What difference does it make?</i><br /><br />Well, it seemed to me the thread was about union employment affected by right-to-work laws, not non-union employment, which generally is employment at-will.<br /><br />leslynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04976589297868178854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-63607826067144727412012-12-11T14:59:25.946-06:002012-12-11T14:59:25.946-06:00Dr. Weevil said,
All I know is that that state ha...Dr. Weevil said,<br /><br /><i>All I know is that that state had developed a system for filling 'Critical Needs' or 'Critical Shortage' jobs, or whatever they called them, involving specific procedures to follow and forms to fill out.</i><br /><br />I thought you said you negotiated your own salary and terms of work--that is, I inferred that you were already an employee. Negotiating salary and certain terms when one is hired can be done, though I still put it in the exceptional categoy which seems to be the case with you.leslynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04976589297868178854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36038099382122999452012-12-11T12:40:31.803-06:002012-12-11T12:40:31.803-06:00leslyn said...
Happy to see you're continuing...leslyn said...<br /><br /><i>Happy to see you're continuing to enjoy your role as a provocateur. Haven't talked you you lately, but I've read you where I occasionally drop in, and you always give me a smile. Want me to make you a sammich? Would be like old times.</i><br /><br />Rye, whole wheat? What kind of meat, condiments? I'm at yer command missus. That's me the house slave.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205752419540502278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86058101312942250112012-12-11T11:51:06.061-06:002012-12-11T11:51:06.061-06:00leslyn said...
Matthew Sablan said...
"Right... leslyn said...<br />Matthew Sablan said... <br />"Right to Work is not as rosy as you paint it to be, either, giving employers as it does the ability to fire workers without recourse."<br /><br />-- That is incorrect and shows you don't know what you are talking about.<br /><br />I added that it is code for "at will." You could go ahead and say that is incorrect too. However, my belief is that "right to work" is a step on the road intended to result in employment at will.<br /><br />Hasn't that always been the case? A union just makes it harder to remove an employee for cause. Which in my opinion-and experience-makes for a bloated work force.<br />You are not now, nor have you ever been guaranteed a job. <br />Rustyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938263272237104128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-83913839091063295942012-12-11T11:11:58.772-06:002012-12-11T11:11:58.772-06:00EMD says he did the same, but did not address whet...<i>EMD says he did the same, but did not address whether his was a union position.</i><br /><br />What difference does it make?Known Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029003649395214104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24530479313418805482012-12-11T11:10:30.100-06:002012-12-11T11:10:30.100-06:00Leslyn said...
...my belief is that "right t...Leslyn said...<br /><br /><i>...my belief is that "right to work" is a step on the road intended to result in employment at will.</i><br /><br />It can be, however, Michigan will always have unions, in the future I hope more productive less self destructive ones. Now where RTW and Michigan is concerned it is rather an action to prevent lazy unions from conscripting members out of thin air and trying to make it part of the Constitution as a means to diminish the Legislature's powers, as well as the Governor's. <br /><br />The union idea that merely having a government subsidy or a tax deduction makes you a de facto commercial service provider subject to Agency Shop dues collection didn't sit well with voters....nor did the effort to re-write the State Constitution. These are the same voters that voter majority for Obama by nearly 10% in the <b>same</b> 06 Nov 2012 election. <br /><br />In short, there are times when unions deserve breaking just as there are times when companies deserve organizing.<br /><br />Needless to say, Garage Mahal doesn't get this...we Michiganders are all John Birchers who voted in the large majority for Obama ya' know. :-0 Aridoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18345930150667529742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-47381690946372934312012-12-11T11:06:29.693-06:002012-12-11T11:06:29.693-06:00leslyn assumes that my result was unusual not beca...leslyn assumes that my result was unusual not because she has any evidence that it was unusual, but because she would lose the argument if it were usual. So which was it? All I know is that that state had developed a system for filling 'Critical Needs' or 'Critical Shortage' jobs, or whatever they called them, involving specific procedures to follow and forms to fill out. There must have been quite a few people hired through it, or they wouldn't have gone to the trouble of developing a system. The fact that they were surprised that I was surprised that they would take union dues out of my salary tells me that everyone (dozens? hundreds? thousands? tens of thousands? it was a big state) hired through that system was charged union dues, despite the union having done absolutely nothing for them. leslyn's objection is ridiculous.Dr Weevilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10059306888033890029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-14486959418954604192012-12-11T10:20:47.525-06:002012-12-11T10:20:47.525-06:00b) I find no value in engagement. As I recall, it ...<i>b) I find no value in engagement. As I recall, it was the latter. At least we are in agreement about that now.<br /><br />However, it is dishonest of you to imply that I am a liar.</i><br /><br />You are a liar (and an idiot) which has been demonstrated over & over here.Brian Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01772632205321099314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-81268753625981804732012-12-11T10:17:15.986-06:002012-12-11T10:17:15.986-06:00Fr Martin Fox said...
Leslyn:
Fr. Fox, since we ...Fr Martin Fox said... <br /><i>Leslyn:<br /><br />Fr. Fox, since we disagree on the premises of discussion on Benghazi, there is nothing I can reply to.<br /><br />In other words, your original claim, which you asserted was factual, in fact you cannot support.<br /><br />What do we call it when people make up facts?<br /><br />No, don't answer that; I'm no longer interested in what you have to say.<br />I've had more interesting--and certainly more honest--conversations with ATMs</i><br /><br />Fr. Fox, I don't reply when:<br /><br />a) I have left the thread; or<br />b) I find no value in engagement. As I recall, it was the latter. At least we are in agreement about that now.<br /><br />However, it is dishonest of you to imply that I am a liar.<br /><br />The ATM line is cute. Who said it originally?<br />leslynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04976589297868178854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1986995186577813942012-12-11T10:13:43.707-06:002012-12-11T10:13:43.707-06:00Dr Weevil said...
Dr Weevil said,"Good luck ...Dr Weevil said... <br />Dr Weevil said,"Good luck with that" writes Freder, who can't be bothered to reply to my actual comment (5:22pm), in which I noted that I once did actually "negotiate my own pay and benefits" with an employer, and had union dues taken out of my paycheck anyway. Typical Frederly rhetoric?<br /><br />Not speaking for him, but for the idea: your result is unusual.<br /><br />EMD says he did the same, but did not address whether his was a union position.<br /><br />leslynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04976589297868178854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-9607377021732322712012-12-11T10:08:44.813-06:002012-12-11T10:08:44.813-06:00Matthew Sablan said...
"Right to Work is not...Matthew Sablan said... <br />"Right to Work is not as rosy as you paint it to be, either, giving employers as it does the ability to fire workers without recourse."<br /><br /><i>-- That is incorrect and shows you don't know what you are talking about.</i><br /><br />I added that it is code for "at will." You could go ahead and say that is incorrect too. However, my belief is that "right to work" is a step on the road intended to result in employment at will.<br /><br />Wisconsin took a bit different tack, removing union dues payroll deductions. This applies to non-union shop employees. As such it cannot be interpreted as anything but an attempt to break unions.<br /><br />So-called "right to work" is going down the same road.<br />leslynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04976589297868178854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19147789847725087872012-12-11T09:33:48.371-06:002012-12-11T09:33:48.371-06:00Remember, the premise for opposing Right to Work--...Remember, the premise for opposing Right to Work--as enunciated by Garage and Freder many times in this thread--is that coercion of workers is for their own good.<br /><br />Some people believe that human beings are capable of freedom, and all it entails; and some don't.<br /><br />Some believe people should be free to say things that are offensive, and even post videos online! Others think the government should punish them to protect us.<br /><br />Some believe that folks should be able to support candidates and causes as they wish, and combine with others to be more effective. Others believe that the First Amendment should be changed so that it doesn't apply to groups of people, called "corporations."<br /><br />Some believe you should pay for your own contraceptives; others believe the government must provide it, even when you don't want it. They believe religious sisters should be forced to include coverage for contraception in their health plans--conscience is a phantom.<br /><br />Some believe you have a right to defend yourself--and that means being well-armed enough to stand against the aggression of others. Others believe you don't have that right, and you should just trust the government will take care of you.<br /><br />The same people who don't believe in free speech, free choice, free political action, don't believe in protections against search-and-seizure, and they don't believe the President should respect due process. Their President has a kill list and can order the death of anyone, anywhere, anytime, as long as he decides that person is an "enemy combatant." <br /><br />This mindset--speech must be regulated, political activity restrained, contraception forced on people, warrantless searches and kill lists--is known as "progressive."<br /><br />People who favor free speech, paying their own way, and not being compelled into unions against their will, and who think the Constitution means something...<br /><br />Are what Garage calls "nutjobs."Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-73930527677909265902012-12-11T09:24:51.031-06:002012-12-11T09:24:51.031-06:00Freder Frederson said...
I want to negotiate ...<i>Freder Frederson said...<br /><br /> I want to negotiate my own pay and benefits and work rules.<br /><br /> Good luck with that.<br /></i><br /><br />I haven't had problems either(EMD above). In fact, I've negotiated at every non-union job I've held.kimschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742219426291395677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-81446794296088961742012-12-11T09:22:42.850-06:002012-12-11T09:22:42.850-06:00Leslyn:
Fr. Fox, since we disagree on the premise...Leslyn:<br /><br /><i>Fr. Fox, since we disagree on the premises of discussion on Benghazi, there is nothing I can reply to.</i><br /><br />In other words, your original claim, which you asserted was factual, in fact you cannot support.<br /><br />What do we call it when people make up facts?<br /><br />No, don't answer that; I'm no longer interested in what you have to say.<br />I've had more interesting--and certainly more honest--conversations with ATMs.Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88581312606774635112012-12-11T09:21:12.919-06:002012-12-11T09:21:12.919-06:00Hey garage:
How about telling us what you think ab...Hey garage:<br />How about telling us what you think about the Michigan union that made caretakers of severely handicapped relatives pay union dues for six years? I've asked you over and over, and your refusal to answer is utterly damning. You keep insisting that you haven't written anything untrue, but that is (a) a lie, and (b) cleverly evades all the things you've dishonestly refused to write about.Dr Weevilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10059306888033890029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-26729109010476356482012-12-11T09:20:08.864-06:002012-12-11T09:20:08.864-06:00Note:
Some public school teachers in the City of ...Note:<br /><br /><i>Some public school teachers in the City of Detroit and around the state of Michigan are reportedly taking a vacation or a sick day today to protest right-to-work legislation likely to be approved by the state legislature. Under current law, Michigan public school teachers must pay dues to the teachers’ union. If the right-to-work law is enacted, Michigan public-school teachers will be free to join the union and pay dues to it if they wish, but they will also be free not to join the union and not to pay it dues.</i><br /><br />Of course fat garagie wants to cut teacher's pay by making them pay union dues.<br /><br />Of course fat garagie is utterly silent on the fact that in Detroit on 7% of 8th graders are proficient in reading.<br /><br />Of course fat garagie is a silly, ignorant idiot.Brian Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01772632205321099314noreply@blogger.com