tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post6995674145949537538..comments2024-03-29T05:45:43.031-05:00Comments on Althouse: Leona Helmsley's will... a design for discord.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-39182867956437861372013-08-28T09:51:13.322-05:002013-08-28T09:51:13.322-05:00I think she had every right to do what she wanted ...I think she had every right to do what she wanted with her money. Her children/grandchildren may not have given her the time of day when she was alive unless they were getting something out of it, and it happens all of the time, even in families without a lot of wealth. They were not owed anything.Christobellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12938497723562973867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-27575219841874475382013-08-28T09:44:35.720-05:002013-08-28T09:44:35.720-05:00I agree that the children/ grandchildren may not h...I agree that the children/ grandchildren may not have given her the time of day during her life! It happens all of the time, but you can be dam sure they will be waiting in the wings upon death for what they think is rightfully theirs!Christobellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12938497723562973867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-58462666843088037182007-09-05T15:43:00.000-05:002007-09-05T15:43:00.000-05:00''For reasons that are known to them.'' Aren't the...''For reasons that are known to them.'' <BR/><BR/>Aren't these the same words heard at the end of "Mommie Dearest," when Joan Crawford disinherits her children? I wonder if Leona was deliberately invoking Crawford.<BR/><BR/>Everybody who says she can do what she wants with her money, or that her dog was the only creature who loved her, or that her Panzirer grandchildren MAY be money-grubbing creeps--you're right. People can do what they want with their own money. But Leona Helmsley went after these grandkids' mom (her son's widow) right after their dad died, suing her for money and trying to evict her from her home. This is not a nice woman we're talking about.Jennifer Dixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00827772176171273302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70501028463066473672007-08-30T22:24:00.000-05:002007-08-30T22:24:00.000-05:00This is a perfect example of why we need a 'Death ...<I>This is a perfect example of why we need a 'Death tax' and also a high tax rate on people with high incomes."<BR/><BR/>Presumably your “this” refers to the example of the four siblings & the lake-front property owned by their parents.</I><BR/><BR/>Sorry, Inwood, I should have made my post more plain, I was referring to Mrs. Helmsley.rcoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17102201338319611538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-39380663771283474122007-08-30T07:28:00.000-05:002007-08-30T07:28:00.000-05:00Adjoran, on that theory, we could never criticize ...Adjoran, on that theory, we could never criticize anyone who is doing something they are free to do. Imagine a world like that. It would be crazy!Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-63326558593882658532007-08-30T03:01:00.000-05:002007-08-30T03:01:00.000-05:00Whether she was a saint or an intolerable b*tch is...Whether she was a saint or an intolerable b*tch is entirely irrelevant.<BR/><BR/>It was HER money. She is perfectly entitled to dispose of it as she sees fit - the nonsensical musings of others above notwithstanding.<BR/><BR/>If the two disinherited grandkids had attitudes anything like many exhibited here, there is little wonder they were cut off.Adjoranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809616183507487000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-14832002829269118912007-08-29T23:24:00.000-05:002007-08-29T23:24:00.000-05:00rcocean you said... "This is a perfect example of...rcocean you said... <BR/><BR/>"This is a perfect example of why we need a 'Death tax' and also a high tax rate on people with high incomes."<BR/><BR/>Presumably your “this” refers to the example of the four siblings & the lake-front property owned by their parents.<BR/> <BR/>If I understand you correctly, your solution would be to tax at a “high tax rate” the income of these “high income” parents, “high income” apparently being defined to mean that earned by anyone who can own lake-front property. The result would be that these parents could probably not afford to hold such property. And, if they did somehow manage to hold it, then you’d tax the transfer of the property upon death so that the heirs would have to sell it to pay such taxes. <BR/><BR/>No one gets to live on the lake!<BR/><BR/>And we thought that Leona was mean.From Inwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555545963289759013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-30489272780489682612007-08-29T23:23:00.000-05:002007-08-29T23:23:00.000-05:00"For reasons known only to them"John Kindley: you..."For reasons known only to them"<BR/><BR/>John Kindley: you don't consider that malicious?<BR/><BR/>But, what if they don't know of any "reasons"? A statement like that sets up an immediate dispute.<BR/><BR/>What would have been better would be to have just said nothing, rather than toss in an inflammatory statement which can easily be challenged.Maxine Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164122931399241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-50459866356777773032007-08-29T22:58:00.000-05:002007-08-29T22:58:00.000-05:00Synova---you'd better start getting your ducks in ...Synova---you'd better start getting your ducks in line. That lake property is going to be split four-ways and then sold off.<BR/><BR/>My advice when the time comes, is to immedately get a U-Haul and collect the furnishings/furniture, maybe even in the middle of the night--- before your siblings do.<BR/><BR/>You've got to move quick if you are going to outrun/outsmart 4 siblings!Maxine Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164122931399241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-34916470862040353252007-08-29T20:01:00.000-05:002007-08-29T20:01:00.000-05:00This is a perfect example of why we need a "Death ...This is a perfect example of why we need a "Death tax" and also a high tax rate on people with high incomes.rcoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17102201338319611538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-16549160504074918842007-08-29T19:52:00.000-05:002007-08-29T19:52:00.000-05:00"I'd rather one of my siblings (the one who actual..."I'd rather one of my siblings (the one who actually could live in the house on the lake) to get it all so that "we" still have it and can visit and vacation there."<BR/><BR/>If you all get along well enough to be confident that you could visit and vacation there whenever you want even though one of the siblings owns the property outright, seems like it could be given to all four of you as tenants in common. If one of you lives there all the time some kind of rent paid to the others (maybe at a family discount, especially since you'll occasionally be vacationing there) might be worked out.<BR/><BR/>That's just one option, and I have no way of knowing if it would be suitable. Far be it from me to come across as offering legal advice. But just giving it all to one sibling seems fraught with problems. What if twenty years down the road the property value goes sky high and/or the sibling decides to move and sells the property? And in any event, when that sibling dies, it's all going to his kids, not his kids' cousins.<BR/><BR/>Okay, enough random thoughts from me. Sounds like your parents really should see an attorney.John Kindleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13897832130417651667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-38481640321620475112007-08-29T19:16:00.000-05:002007-08-29T19:16:00.000-05:00My family has never had much but it doesn't take m...My family has never had much but it doesn't take much to cause serious discord and long term animosity.<BR/><BR/>My parents talk about dividing their home/lake property between four children and, as far as I know, each of us has said that we'd rather it was not divided. And having one person have to pay the other three isn't a solution either because none of us could possibly afford that. I'd rather one of my siblings (the one who actually could live in the house on the lake) to get it all so that "we" still have it and can visit and vacation there.<BR/><BR/>It's probably best to work this all out before it becomes an issue so that everyone has the same expectations.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90701965336258601512007-08-29T19:11:00.000-05:002007-08-29T19:11:00.000-05:00Property rights are an illusion the same way that ...Property rights are an illusion the same way that all government is consensus fiction.<BR/><BR/>Past the point of "I own what I can hold" the concept of property as it's supported by other people who agree not to take it even if they can, is only real because a majority agree to pretend that it is real.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-46734855222425330222007-08-29T18:35:00.000-05:002007-08-29T18:35:00.000-05:00I'm almost 50 and I've never inherited a dime. An...I'm almost 50 and I've never inherited a dime. And that's good news as it means everyone who could give me money is still alive. Within 5 years or so I'll likely inherit something, and I'm curious to see how the procedure works.<BR/><BR/>Allen, I'm pretty sure my inheritances will not be like yours, and for that I'm grateful. You did well to give your siblings the money.MadisonManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01212179466758420208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56252347007801929892007-08-29T18:16:00.000-05:002007-08-29T18:16:00.000-05:00Thank you, Ann.Thank you, Ann.AllenShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08848966772462502893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-62877812674002825822007-08-29T18:09:00.000-05:002007-08-29T18:09:00.000-05:00Allen, I'm glad to hear that. I'm sure it was easy...Allen, I'm glad to hear that. I'm sure it was easy to see that it was strongly in your interest to spend the money to undo the slight.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-45320598919063268032007-08-29T18:04:00.000-05:002007-08-29T18:04:00.000-05:00My father died in 1985. He had a will. He gave hal...My father died in 1985. He had a will. He gave half of his estate (money) to two friends of his, about $12,000. He gave his other son, and his daughter (my brother and sister) each, $1. I got the balance, again about $12,000.<BR/><BR/>Being the good man that I am, I wrote two checks, giving my brother and sister, one third of what I was given.<BR/><BR/>I don't think that this will happen to this family.AllenShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08848966772462502893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-84152881237679716462007-08-29T17:04:00.000-05:002007-08-29T17:04:00.000-05:00"If a will is viewed as a contract with the benefi..."If a will is viewed as a contract with the beneficiaries to be performed upon the death in an individual, the property rights transfer instantly."<BR/><BR/>That's not what a will is and that's not what happens. The property rights haven't been transferred to the beneficiaries before the testator's death, so they have no power or authority to act on behalf of the decedent with regard to the property. No one has the right to do anything with the decedent's former property until the state enters the picture and (after certifying who in fact are the beneficiaries by accepting the will as legitimate) appoints a personal representative / executor (who may or may not be a beneficiary) to act in the decedent's stead (via the state-created legal fiction I mentioned earlier), who then effects the transfer of property. (In small estates, by statute, transfers can be effected by affidavit without court administration.)<BR/><BR/>A revocable living trust, on the other hand, to which the decedent transfers title to property prior to death, may function similarly to what you describe. Probate is not necessary because title is not in the decedent's name. However, since the trust is revocable and the decedent could have done anything he wanted with the trust assets up to his death, the state levies inheritance and estate taxes on the trust assets just the same.John Kindleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13897832130417651667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-72588722599311481982007-08-29T16:20:00.000-05:002007-08-29T16:20:00.000-05:00Nobody gets disinherited when you've got billion d...Nobody gets disinherited when you've got billion dollar foundations. Maybe she can play games with the trusts. When you set up a "Charitable" (Hahahah) Foundation there are usually several groups of heirs that are entitled to interest income etc...<BR/><BR/>We all know that these "Foundations" are nothing more than glorified tax shelters for the wealthy. Has the Helmsley Foundation ever made a single disbursement?<BR/><BR/>The two disinherited could cause a major uproar if they claim those Foundations are nothing but fraud. Someone better settle with them, otherwise the whole thing will be tied up in Court for years, they'll raid the trusts, and dismantle the "Foundations".<BR/><BR/>I've seen it happen many times.Maxine Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164122931399241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-84818277071127159242007-08-29T15:27:00.000-05:002007-08-29T15:27:00.000-05:00I wonder who gets the money when the dog dies?Mayb...I wonder who gets the money when the dog dies?<BR/><BR/>Maybe she was too mean to think of a secondary beneficiary?!?!save_the_rustbelthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15292805042626368911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28828360851673388492007-08-29T14:51:00.000-05:002007-08-29T14:51:00.000-05:00John K“For reasons that are known to them/me.”That...John K<BR/><BR/>“For reasons that are known to them/me.”<BR/><BR/>That is a sidebar here, but, FYI, I think that there was a collection of “famous attacks in Wills” sometime long, long ago; or maybe I’m thinking of some movies of the ‘30s & ‘40s where, before a large group of relatives, retainers, & other would-be heirs, the Will is read, by a Mr. Tulkinghorn type, said Will containing all kinds of jabs at ne’re-do-well relatives & slow retainers, to the consternation of some & the merriment of others & where all kinds of scores are settled. It was my experience that people who’d never been to a lawyer for a Will thought that this was cool. Maybe Snopes has an urban legend or two in this regard. <BR/><BR/>But, I suspect that even one of those “Wills For Idiots” guides by now have a section warning people not to put this stuff in for the reasons you’ve explained plus the fact that such sentiments are usually defamatory & may lead to unexpected litigation.<BR/> <BR/>And of course, the quoted phrase above is added as evidence that the testator/testatrix did not accidentally overlook the party left out. <BR/><BR/>Funny that someone would think that Leona did not have the best lawyers. (“Bad lawyers are are only for little people” , as she might say.”)<BR/><BR/>Which is not to say that Leona's every wish about the dog will be fulfilled by those in charge of the trust in the way she herself might've done had she survived.<BR/><BR/>Look on my works, ye mighty and despair!From Inwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555545963289759013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64749793395326404252007-08-29T13:55:00.000-05:002007-08-29T13:55:00.000-05:00Ad then comes Der Hahn, talkin' sense. Who do you ...Ad then comes Der Hahn, talkin' sense. <BR/>Who do you think you are, Hammurabi?KCFleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124201866124646626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11529704991879326032007-08-29T13:53:00.000-05:002007-08-29T13:53:00.000-05:00the property rights of a dead person are a mere il...<I>the property rights of a dead person are a mere illusion</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think 'dead people having property rights' is the basis for inheritance at all.<BR/><BR/>If a will is viewed as a contract with the beneficiaries to be performed upon the death in an individual, the property rights transfer instantly. The fact that the paperwork may take some time to catch up doesn't change that.Der Hahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05967487071137862252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-67948313780018074502007-08-29T13:51:00.000-05:002007-08-29T13:51:00.000-05:00If so, then why can't I rob a grave?You can disint...<I>If so, then why can't I rob a grave?</I><BR/><BR/>You can disinter a body and have sex with it in WI. The sex is not a crime. You really do lose rights when you die.MadisonManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01212179466758420208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-6459031689521387632007-08-29T13:49:00.000-05:002007-08-29T13:49:00.000-05:00seven machos says...I will speak ill of the dead: ...seven machos says...<BR/><BR/><I>I will speak ill of the dead: the woman was a bad person.</I><BR/><BR/>How do you know this? A few references would be helpful. Are you saying she had no redeeming qualities? She was evil?<BR/><BR/><I>She richly deserves every bit of scorn and ridicule that she will get.</I><BR/><BR/>She won't be getting any more scorn and ridicule. She's now in her grave. For some unfathomable reason, you find pleasure in dancing on it. Frankly, what you're doing is vulgar.<BR/><BR/><I>Her name will forever be associated with cosmic awfulness, not too far removed from Pol Pot, and there is nothing she can do to redeem herself. Ever.</I><BR/><BR/>This is so patently ridiculous that I suspect you're simply playing the joker. If not, you're certainly playing the fool. Perhaps you don't realize that comparing Helmsley to Pol Pot doesn't diminish Helmsley, it elevates Pol Pot.<BR/><BR/>Is that your intention?Gedaliyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08414106662981462086noreply@blogger.com