tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post5184106330927724872..comments2024-03-18T22:38:30.952-05:00Comments on Althouse: "The Case for $320,000 Kindergarten Teachers."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-65817254987913885492010-07-28T23:26:38.246-05:002010-07-28T23:26:38.246-05:00It could be worse - you could be in Kansas being t...<i>It could be worse - you could be in Kansas being taught creationism..</i><br /><br />Except that that wouldn't have disastrous effects on public policy. (Energy, regulation, standard of living, etc. etc. etc.) Creationists aren't going to be passing any "No evolving over millions of years!" laws.Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-60394277660608962172010-07-28T21:01:02.944-05:002010-07-28T21:01:02.944-05:00Increasing teacher pay without killing off certifi...<i>Increasing teacher pay without killing off certification and unionization just results in the same but more highly paid bad teachers.</i><br /><br />Yep. Here in California the amount of tax money going to each kid is double what it was thirty years ago (in constant dollars). Most of that money has gone to teacher salaries and retirement.<br /><br />Student achievement is down. So what exactly did we get for our money? Wealthier teachers.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10330712047609650184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88657087096697389592010-07-28T19:02:50.405-05:002010-07-28T19:02:50.405-05:00Likewise, if we paid doctors more we'd have be...Likewise, if we paid doctors more we'd have better healthcare.....<br /><br />If we paid CEO's better we'd have better corporations.<br /><br /><br /><br />Frankly, I think everyone should get paid more, then we'd have more money and we'd be smarter so we'd spend it smartererPhil 314https://www.blogger.com/profile/04133300763922742206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-26266471043594746732010-07-28T16:08:44.054-05:002010-07-28T16:08:44.054-05:00Freeman Hunt said...
"I assume this is the so...Freeman Hunt said...<br />"I assume this is the sort of "science" they're testing on in public school now."<br /><br />It could be worse - you could be in Kansas being taught creationism..and to the 24 years to fix...I think she really meant 6 straight democrat victories...now that would make sense....<br /><br />And she should be mad at you for voting for Bush. I'm kinda hurt myself.Opus One Mediahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04041788083619471630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-62738756489443003672010-07-28T15:41:32.165-05:002010-07-28T15:41:32.165-05:00My daughter and her kindergarten teacher don't...My daughter and her kindergarten teacher don't even speak the same language. Wonder how that affects her future income potential?Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12824506338738265111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-12927347901623524922010-07-28T15:28:10.610-05:002010-07-28T15:28:10.610-05:00"Each generation of that loop has shifted us ..."Each generation of that loop has shifted us away from fundamental values that made better students and toward others that often are counter to the hard work and expansion of learning."<br /><br />More to the point, about 1/3 of the students and parents do not give a rip. Maybe more. I used to blame teachers...now I think the reason they cling to their unions is because they are stuck in such an awful system with hopeless material to work with.wild chickenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17956296475651720602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36463204908093797392010-07-28T15:16:10.238-05:002010-07-28T15:16:10.238-05:00Traffic lights are no problem. It's really not...<i>Traffic lights are no problem. It's really not reds and greens, but rather shades of reds and greens and how they occur together. A stop light is bright red and bright green, plus they are usually in the same place on the light.</i><br /><br />Take a look in the thread about disabilities re: my mother's auto accident because the lights were not standardized...way back when.<br /><br />My brother isn't as bad, but my mother could not distinguish between red/green green/brown brown/dark blues blue/green red/brown or ANY pastel colors. I think she could see tones of those colors but they all looked the same to her. She liked bright orange and lime green...good thing it was the 70's. I always wondered what they looked like to her.<br /><br /><br />I know that a sunset was..."meh...so what" to her.Dust Bunny Queenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13341429444562280127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-8585403499179735532010-07-28T15:03:06.627-05:002010-07-28T15:03:06.627-05:00Seriously, you've never seen it? I thought eve...<i>Seriously, you've never seen it? I thought everyone had. It's a nice little movie.</i><br /><br />Nope, never did see it, although it's got good company, I suppose with <i>Crash</i>, <i>Million Dollar Baby</i>, and <i>Slumdog Millionare</i> in the sense that they were all just must-see and i skipped them.<br /><br />DBQ, if memory serves, the percentage of red/green colorblindness is much higher than 8%. I seem to remember it being over 20%, but that's just the ol' thinker going.<br /><br />Traffic lights are no problem. It's really not reds and greens, but rather shades of reds and greens and how they occur together. A stop light is bright red and bright green, plus they are usually in the same place on the light.<br /><br />The camo thing is true, by the way.Scott Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08871331702531675368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79088504774784077202010-07-28T14:56:01.020-05:002010-07-28T14:56:01.020-05:00ScottM, I'm talking about the movie "Litt...ScottM, I'm talking about the movie "Little Miss Sunshine." I think it won a bunch of Oscars a few years ago. In it, a teen boy is serious about becoming an Air Force pilot and he finds out he's color-blind.<br /><br />And a little chubby girl competes in a beauty pageant. Seriously, you've never seen it? I thought everyone had. It's a nice little movie.Pastafarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09008215139954260401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79359937551168375402010-07-28T14:36:52.366-05:002010-07-28T14:36:52.366-05:00I think something like 8% of males have red-green ...<i>I think something like 8% of males have red-green color deficiency. Makes you wonder why stoplights are red and green and ships' running lights are red and green</i><br /><br />My mother and brother (natch) are color blind. Very rare for a woman to be color blind.<br /><br />I read somewhere that it was a plus during WWII to be a colorblind navigator because you were better able to 'see through' the camouflage. I imagine there are other current occupations where it can be a positive condition.<br /><br />Kindergarten was a waste of time for my daughter and for my brother, probably for me as well. My daughter was already reading at a 5th grade level by the age of 5 and had to be put into a 'special' class that caused her to feel weird.<br /><br />My brother was a pain in the butt in kindergarten for the same reasons....he was bored out of his mind and made problems for the teacher....so to get rid of him...they skipped him into 3rd grade from kindergarten. Wreaked havoc on his social life in high school.<br /><br />The one size fits all school system that we have is failing students on both ends of the bell curve.Dust Bunny Queenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13341429444562280127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-40020612064970653082010-07-28T14:20:22.022-05:002010-07-28T14:20:22.022-05:00"...that we was red-green sufficient."
..."...that we was red-green sufficient."<br /><br />lol, let's try that "HE was red-green DEfficient..."Scott Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08871331702531675368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88458948970227031172010-07-28T14:14:22.848-05:002010-07-28T14:14:22.848-05:00"The sergeant showed the kid the bubble test ..."The sergeant showed the kid the bubble test for color vision. My son, who had never been tested, was shocked (so were we) that we was red-green sufficient."<br /><br />Been there done that, but I didn't know until after I was offered an NROTC scholarship. My dad was in the navy and I wanted to be in the navy since I was at least 10 years old. Knocked the wind out of me too. <br /><br />But the good news was the scholarship was awarded as a Marine option, something I never would have done on my own, as I would have been too intimidated. Turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me. <br /><br />I think something like 8% of males have red-green color deficiency. Makes you wonder why stoplights are red and green and ships' running lights are red and green. <br /><br />We now return to our discussion of education and how color vision can impact motivation.Skylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10574746114813075566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-54716939432413006362010-07-28T14:04:32.401-05:002010-07-28T14:04:32.401-05:00You lost me. A more apt analogy would be a beauti...You lost me. A more apt analogy would be a beautiful, talented girl doing everything right to win Miss American, only to suddenly wake up one morning ugly, fat, and off key.Scott Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08871331702531675368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-21716417726562169672010-07-28T14:00:56.987-05:002010-07-28T14:00:56.987-05:00ScottM said: "...my oldest son. He wanted to...ScottM said: "...my oldest son. He wanted to be a fighter pilot from age 10...the bubble test for color vision..."<br /><br />Holy crap, did you also have a chubby daughter who competed in a beauty pageant? I loved that movie. Too bad about Grandpa, though.Pastafarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09008215139954260401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-44472356253619545522010-07-28T13:57:54.938-05:002010-07-28T13:57:54.938-05:00I agree that a good elementary school teacher can ...I agree that a good elementary school teacher can make a big difference for a child, and there's a wide gulf between a good elementary teacher and a bad one.<br /><br />I doubt that kindergarten is really that important compared to first, second, and third grade, though.<br /><br />But blindly throwing more money at the problem won't work. As other commenters have noted, announcing "I will pay $100 per pound for a really nice steak" does not produce one of President Obama's Kobe beef ribeyes -- the free market doesn't work that way.<br /><br />Note that the best teachers are often at private schools, and those teachers make less money. (And no, it's not just the fact that they get better, more motivated students -- I've met public and private school teachers, and there are fewer incompetents in private schools).<br /><br />I assume that the reason that this is so is...teacher unions in public schools, that prevent administrations from getting rid of incompetents. That, and the fact that good teachers don't go into teaching for the money.<br /><br />If we rid ourselves of the NEA and AFT, we'd have a renaissance in education.<br /><br />And as long as teachers want to be unionized, like a tradesman, I see no reason to pay them or treat them like professionals, like doctors or lawyers. There's no doctors' union.Pastafarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09008215139954260401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79401351139676747832010-07-28T13:44:13.702-05:002010-07-28T13:44:13.702-05:00Also, Bush is/was "evil." Out of ethics...Also, Bush is/was "evil." Out of ethics class there I suppose.Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-74586834378756722052010-07-28T13:42:10.550-05:002010-07-28T13:42:10.550-05:00My ten year old sister was furious to find out las...My ten year old sister was furious to find out last weekend that her sister (me) and her parents voted for Bush in 2004. "He destroyed the environment, and it will take 24 years to fix it." I assume this is the sort of "science" they're testing on in public school now.Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-72858141407426581862010-07-28T13:31:53.422-05:002010-07-28T13:31:53.422-05:00Joe,
I'm still not convinced and, again, I ha...Joe,<br /><br />I'm still not convinced and, again, I have only me and mine, including the extended family on both sides (just oodles of friggin kids, given the Scots/Irish one one side and the Irish Catholics on the other) to go by.<br /><br />After years of doing my best (learning myself as my wife and I went along) to shepard four kids through school, I learned that it's just not that complicated. We stayed after them, helped them with their studies, made homework a priority over anything else, and became friends with more than one of their teachers.<br /><br />Granted the youngest just started, but she's following the same arc the other three did. I don't know if it matters, but all of them were forced to learn piano. Rumor has there are (shudder) studies that prove it makes for better academic success. <br /><br />The only stumble we had was my oldest son. He wanted to be a fighter pilot from age 10. Scary dedicated to it and geared everything toward the USAF academy. I actually downplayed it propping up a "normal" college life, but helped him every where I could. As a junior, he took a friend of his to a recruiter he knew. The sergeant showed the kid the bubble test for color vision. My son, who had never been tested, was shocked (so were we) that we was red-green sufficient. Needless to say, this sucked the life out of his senior year. He went from honors classes to regular classes and got B's and C's.<br /><br />That has zero to do with cognitive development and everything to do with his entire world crashing down on him through no fault of his own.<br /><br />My point being that I don't put a lot of stock in the conclusion these eduction academics come up with. Sure, that lines up with your "people will say they don't believe it" but I've got strong reason not to.Scott Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08871331702531675368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-63227457592947696732010-07-28T13:23:05.663-05:002010-07-28T13:23:05.663-05:00More parents should be fired than teachers. It wou...More parents should be fired than teachers. It would be cheaper for us to take the kids away and build orphanages.I'm Full of Souphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00241724007440718575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88542292485818298062010-07-28T13:18:39.432-05:002010-07-28T13:18:39.432-05:00After a year of kindergarten, they read very well,...<i>After a year of kindergarten, they read very well, did decent arithmetic including simple multiplication, knew their months and holidays, etc. You know, the absolute basics. Things a first grade teacher doesn't need to more than touch on as long as the parents are engaged.<br /><br />Do you have kids Joe?</i><br /><br />Four.<br />Now 14-22.<br /><br />You entirely miss the point and fall into the fallacy of learning early is the same as learning effectively. Learning all that stuff in kindergarten is no different in a very few years than learning it in second grade.<br /><br />Put another way, does academic success in kindergarten have any predictive value for academic success in high school? The answer is an unequivocal no.<br /><br />Furthermore, highly structured learning before age 7 can cause children quite a bit of stress, which is harmful, with no upside.<br /><br />(Looking at my own kids, I find very little correlation between success in elementary school and how well they did once they hit puberty. All my children did spectacular in elementary school. By eight grade, two were struggling, yet at 17 my oldest finally pulled her head out of her butt and started racking up straight A's again. Take away the lazy factor [mostly turning in homework and papers late] and where each child has struggled isn't always where they struggled in elementary school. Son #1 hates reading, but writes extremely well [and in a stroke of genius, he once wrote a very good book "report" on a book that didn't exist.] I loved reading, but hated English class and was surprised to get my highest score on my ACT in English. Go figure.)Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04450897654318345683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-23273843782997610072010-07-28T13:16:33.021-05:002010-07-28T13:16:33.021-05:00320 k isn't very much difference for the lifet...320 k isn't very much difference for the lifetime earnings of 20 people.<br /><br />Also, 320k dollars now is more valuable than 320k over 60 years.<br /><br />Lastly, paying more for talent presupposes that we are firing people who don't have the talent. Not going to happen. We'll just pay more for all teachers.<br /><br />We get bombarded by these statistical studies about education that keep leaving out the fact that results are the last thing that matters when it comes to hiring and firing teachers.<br /><br />So, this article is meaningless.NotWhoIUsedtoBehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14568355742926021406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-786115057220784332010-07-28T13:16:19.235-05:002010-07-28T13:16:19.235-05:00edutcher said...
"Considering kiddie garter w...edutcher said...<br />"Considering kiddie garter was mostly finger paints and sitting on the floor in a circle, it would seem to prolong, rather than shorten, some people's infantile period."...<br /><br />well first, let's get it right...kindergarten..<br /><br />you aren't much of an advertisement for home school are you? Well structured kindergardens have curriculums and goals and generally meet them. You'd be amazed.<br /><br />Don't project your homeschooling experience to the real world...gets you in a heap of misunderstanding.Opus One Mediahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04041788083619471630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-57811499890945817292010-07-28T13:13:55.171-05:002010-07-28T13:13:55.171-05:00I must state once again my position on public scho...I must state once again my position on public school teachers. They should all be fired and replaced by robots.Trooper Yorkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01978703998566102194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-30126256184292132952010-07-28T13:03:44.229-05:002010-07-28T13:03:44.229-05:00Do you have kids Joe?
You have no idea.
As for m...<i>Do you have kids Joe?</i><br /><br />You have no idea.<br /><br />As for me, I have kids and kindergarten was fine for them, but I don't know that it mattered much. Cognitive development proceeds apace independent of schooling. Anecdotally my son, after doing fine in Kindergarten, pretty much wasted a year in first grade because he had a lousy teacher. That didn't stop him from becoming one the better students in second grade when he had a very good teacher.<br /><br />Studies of Head Start show that any advantages children gain in pre-K programs vs. their non-pre-K peers simply disappears by grades 1 or 2. Once a kid's brain develops, they can learn things like writing and arithmetic very quickly -- and easily catch up to those pushed into the system ahead of them.<br /><br />In general I think we underestimate how quickly it is to learn things if you actually want to do so. I'm speaking of both kids and adults.Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14480329783749187372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-49266919506262711082010-07-28T13:02:04.909-05:002010-07-28T13:02:04.909-05:00I'm with rhhardin and henry.I'm with rhhardin and henry.Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.com