tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post5136752676588261862..comments2024-03-18T23:08:20.960-05:00Comments on Althouse: The NYT editorializes against traditional classroom teaching in law schools.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70733001896282725012011-11-27T10:41:23.882-06:002011-11-27T10:41:23.882-06:00In my interviews with law students from top law sc...<em> In my interviews with law students from top law schools on both sides of the country I experienced a gradually diminishing number of students who were interested in having a detailed understanding of legal principles, including how and why those principles developed; I saw fewer students and graduates with superb analytic skills or with enthusiasm for applying analytic skills to problems presented to them during an interview or at the firm; I saw diminished stamina for intellectual rigor;</em><br /><br />My experience was similar, though not quite as discouraging. I was never sure whether the deficiencies arose from inadequate training or lesser ability. Perhaps as you suggest, it was simple lack of interest in rigorous thought.<br /><br />That said, there was still always a good supply of very fine young lawyers. As has always been the case, they had huge amounts to learn as they came into practice, but they had the attitude, aptitude and skills to learn quickly.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17424384180201600935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22952462295344792822011-11-27T10:33:00.380-06:002011-11-27T10:33:00.380-06:00And by the way, clinical education is mostly bulls...And by the way, clinical education is mostly bullshit. In my career as a lawyer, I saw many young men and women who had "clinical" experience. It did very little to prepare them for the actual practice of law. <br /><br />Rigorous analysis and clear thinking are still the main tools of the trade.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17424384180201600935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-32686323102863016652011-11-27T10:29:49.680-06:002011-11-27T10:29:49.680-06:00"If learning law doesn't involve deep stu..."If learning law doesn't involve deep study of difficult materials, why should you have to go to law school at all? "<br /><br />They could become journalists after law school. (Some people do.) Journalism seems to require no deep study of difficult materials whatsoever.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17424384180201600935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-71463963798258553222011-11-26T20:53:01.216-06:002011-11-26T20:53:01.216-06:00The irony of the NYT's view of law as merely a...The irony of the NYT's view of law as merely a means to an end is that such thinking has been applied to the NYT's profession of journalism and has destroyed it.Ambrosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12186326715874648232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41449515766169901452011-11-26T20:38:00.356-06:002011-11-26T20:38:00.356-06:00Education worked better when the teachers were as ...Education worked better when the teachers were as illiterate as the students and the schools were run by the pastor's kids.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05061304265345986242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56825904988072575122011-11-26T20:29:49.415-06:002011-11-26T20:29:49.415-06:00Isn't there a simple solution to this problem?...Isn't there a simple solution to this problem? Require all new law school hires to have actually practiced law, either in the private or public sector, for somewhere bewteen 5 and 10 years.<br /><br />As for legal reasoning, why not require a course in logic for first year students?mtrobertsattorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428761048285792427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-84951962234180732122011-11-26T17:11:27.888-06:002011-11-26T17:11:27.888-06:00Come now. You voted for an ineligible candidate, a...Come now. You voted for an ineligible candidate, and still will not acknowledge that there is doubt as to whether Obama is eligible or not. Why not defend his eligibility? What are you supposedly "teaching" there?Mickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02864660386925998491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-76405005898053329002011-11-26T15:23:00.621-06:002011-11-26T15:23:00.621-06:00IANAL (more a 1000 at bottom of ocean fan), but do...IANAL (more a 1000 at bottom of ocean fan), but do think Crack made the comment of the week, eg:<br /><br /><b>The best thing about the NYT is already knowing what it <i>"thinks"</i> before one reads it,...</b>Popvillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02299807620623256584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-60756037800061908232011-11-26T15:21:15.069-06:002011-11-26T15:21:15.069-06:00There is a general trend in all fields to produce ...There is a general trend in all fields to produce technicians. There is a progressive distaste for independent, creative thinkers. The latter are more likely to perturb a steady state in a society. They are also more difficult to control and coordinate. They tend to be rebels with a cause and with a clue. As opposed to anarchists for hire.n.nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04252447117532342957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-13039594224339219202011-11-26T15:12:15.485-06:002011-11-26T15:12:15.485-06:00So... forget science and truth. Law is a means to ...<i>So... forget science and truth. Law is a means to an end. Got that?</i><br /><br />Uh, yes. Most of us outside law schools got that a long time ago.Smilin' Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01501763605001379362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-69021728031395759962011-11-26T13:28:36.497-06:002011-11-26T13:28:36.497-06:00The irony is that the logic behind the NYT editori...The irony is that the logic behind the NYT editorial board's opinion has already had strong influence on our educational institutions, from "touch" math to gender and diversity requirements (which are presumed to transition simply to 'meritocracy' later on) to perhaps less focus on analytical rigour and intellectual excellence etc. <br /><br />Change, to some extent, is inevitable, but not simply according to this redistributionist and self-serving thought. <br /><br />I've been hoping that lawyers, with their high-end analytical skills and good minds would point out some of the faultier logic driving change at their schools. Especially when that change can interfere with the quality of education, the profession, and the ability to produce good lawyers....but they've been saddled with "the future."<br /><br />As for the Times, I usually only hear them crying more loudly the less they have say.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-43963579845126875782011-11-26T13:03:37.989-06:002011-11-26T13:03:37.989-06:00"The best thing about the NYT is already know..."The best thing about the NYT is already knowing what it "thinks" before one reads it,..."<br /><br />... and then you don't have to subscribe. Even better!Gary Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00338791760274457388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-49989057754835648742011-11-26T12:39:19.755-06:002011-11-26T12:39:19.755-06:00• Creating more interdisciplinary opportunities ac...• Creating more interdisciplinary opportunities across campus;<br />• Constructing integrated spaces in which students and faculty <br />can easily collaborate;<br />• Developing ways to address global challenges by promoting an international perspective;<br />• Encouraging students not just to think like lawyers but how to act like lawyers through their work with clients in the XXXX Clinic;<br />• Inspiring students to make a lifelong commitment <br />to public service.<br />Those are some very slightly edited bullet points from my law school in its latest request for money. <br />Ann:<br />The following are not absolutes, but they were clear trends I saw over those 41 years:<br />In my interviews with law students from top law schools on both sides of the country I experienced a gradually diminishing number of students who were interested in having a detailed understanding of legal principles, including how and why those principles developed; I saw fewer students and graduates with superb analytic skills or with enthusiasm for applying analytic skills to problems presented to them during an interview or at the firm; I saw diminished stamina for intellectual rigor; I saw and heard gratitude for clinical courses that softened the burdens of law school; I learned that off campus "clinic" courses were a breeze and, from the students' perspective, a good opportunity for getting credit for easy work; I saw diminished writing skills; I saw that the diminished ability to write well and to apply analytic skills, or to have an interest in applying them, positively correlated with the number of clinical courses the student had taken; finally, I never encountered an associate who exhibited an ability to perform a real-life client-related task because of something learned through a clinic course.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691987091712683311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-29876969758188735522011-11-26T12:33:47.962-06:002011-11-26T12:33:47.962-06:00"When my wife went to middle school/high scho...<i>"When my wife went to middle school/high school in Japan back in the 70s/80s, the kids cleaned the school and even served each other lunch."</i><br /><br />I assume they all remained janitors throughout their working lives, then.Paco Wovéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00053886112561036768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-50268963599002698662011-11-26T12:18:21.603-06:002011-11-26T12:18:21.603-06:00I've seen proposals--from lawyers, naturally--...I've seen proposals--from lawyers, naturally--that suggest law school should be cut by a year and students required to do a one- or two-year apprenticeship at a law firm.<br /><br />They would be paid, on the order of $40K/yr, for their OJT. I think that right there is the poison in the pill. What lawyer or law firm wants to pay $40K to turn pigs ears into silk purses?John Burgesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11979918255430186425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88550244974487118592011-11-26T12:11:41.805-06:002011-11-26T12:11:41.805-06:00Ann,
I have a request for you. I am largely igno...Ann,<br /><br />I have a request for you. I am largely ignorant of any formal understand of what "law" is. It's confusing to me in a number of ways.<br /><br />On the one hand, it seems like a way to punish people, to set wrongs right, etc. But there are other examples that seem rather out of touch, like John Edwards use of law. Is there a standard, well defined purpose for law, a set of guiding principles? The FDA has this, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.Dantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07393170116669470751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4813670122740683722011-11-26T11:59:17.093-06:002011-11-26T11:59:17.093-06:00If learning law doesn't involve deep study of ...<i>If learning law doesn't involve deep study of difficult materials, why should you have to go to law school at all?</i><br /><br />If learning law does involve the "deep study" of "difficulty materials," how did so many pea-brained idiots get to be lawyers?Peanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10300220285833876977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-18239909918388008442011-11-26T11:58:35.234-06:002011-11-26T11:58:35.234-06:00Rick,
All of the above, probably; along with the ...Rick,<br /><br />All of the above, probably; along with the additional assertion that you aren't you.<br /><br />(Yes J is demented...)Kirk Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05921711310191924997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64951004442644755832011-11-26T11:46:55.613-06:002011-11-26T11:46:55.613-06:00J:
Sorry, but I may be missing your point. Are you...J:<br />Sorry, but I may be missing your point. Are you saying that what I wrote about my observations is false, in that those were not really my observations, or that I am not receiving that type of request for donations?Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691987091712683311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90005258609948651562011-11-26T11:43:48.454-06:002011-11-26T11:43:48.454-06:00J: your slipping dude--your first post was damn g...J: your slipping dude--your first post was damn good and you deleted it! <br /><br />Please, J, tell me what byro means--like the dude in dirty harry--"I gots to know, man"Roger J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12639676792043324100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-45494055141298217372011-11-26T11:41:32.432-06:002011-11-26T11:41:32.432-06:00which I personally witnessed over a 41-year legal ...<i>which I personally witnessed over a 41-year legal career.</i><br /><br />It's pure BS aka a lie, Miss A. Like 95% of its comments here. Indeed, one might say misrepresentation of a serious sort (ie, people acting as bogus attorneys/CPAs/MDs--serious crime in CA. It doesn't even have an AA (it's the byro freak again RJ ).Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-53591637928603001212011-11-26T11:40:45.007-06:002011-11-26T11:40:45.007-06:00I think the "problem" that the Times per...I think the "problem" that the <i>Times</i> perceives is that too many law school graduates want to come out of school understanding the law, and not nearly enough (by the standards of the <i>Times</i>) wanting to change the world.<br /><br />That is, they don't necessarily want to change the world in the direction that the <i>Times</i> wants, which is not necessarily for the better.<br /><br />Anyway, the wish of the <i>Times</i> editorial board is that they could get more people who are lawyers out to change the world, even if these new lawyers lack the reading comprehension and analytical skills to survive law school, and lack the willingness to take on high five-figure debts to go to law school in the first place.Big Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831645119853118904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-15414394222269446522011-11-26T11:40:33.223-06:002011-11-26T11:40:33.223-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86052403950976600772011-11-26T11:37:51.249-06:002011-11-26T11:37:51.249-06:00Gasp--Professor A--you dont believe law schools ex...Gasp--Professor A--you dont believe law schools exist to bring in tuition? say its not so--Law schools are rather like the penn state football program, (hopefully) less Jerry SanduskyRoger J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12639676792043324100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-69708885887747931582011-11-26T11:37:08.497-06:002011-11-26T11:37:08.497-06:00"To avoid a lengthy comment I just deleted my..."To avoid a lengthy comment I just deleted my observations regarding the negative effects of "clinical" law school courses and the general deterioration of the capabilities of graduates of our supposedly excellent law schools, which I personally witnessed over a 41-year legal career."<br /><br />I appreciate your comment and would love to read the material you thought you should delete. Long comments aren't really a problem (unless they lack good content). The space here is limitless.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.com