tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post5125105264692542145..comments2024-03-18T23:08:20.960-05:00Comments on Althouse: "Crow was ... insistent, poking Rove in the chest and pinching his arm."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger161125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64423478501529782212007-05-01T13:44:00.000-05:002007-05-01T13:44:00.000-05:00revenant wrote:I'm amused by your belief that a su...<I>revenant wrote:<BR/><BR/>I'm amused by your belief that a supermajority of Americans are reactionaries. Also amusing is your claim that people who reacted to 9/11 by setting out to rebuild the Middle East qualify as "people opposed to political change".</I><BR/><BR/>I never said any of this. But, to address the point <B>you</B> raise, I don't have any evidence, and neither do you, that a "supermajority" of Americans believe "9/11 changed everything." We can agree, though, that people who change their fundamental beliefs in reaction to an event, are by definition, reactionary. I'll leave it to you to count them.<BR/><BR/>I have no idea what your second sentence means since it doesn't relate to anything I said, yet it is posted as a response to me. Very strange.<BR/><BR/><I>Apparently you're one of these lefty mouth-breathers who thinks the President just gets to invade whatever country he wants to, whenever he wants to. Even assuming you buy into the paranoid conspiracy theory that Bush had planned to invade Iraq all along, </I><BR/><BR/>Stripping away the insults and the rhetorical garbage from your comment, I'm left only with <B>your opinion</B> that Americans weren't concerned about WMD prior to 9/11. Do you have any evidence of that?<BR/><BR/>Oh, and by the way, in your eagerness to <B>try</B> to be clever, you thoughtfully confirmed my statement that Bush used 9/11 as cover to invade Iraq:<BR/><BR/><I>[Bush] would not have been able to [invade Iraq] if Americans had not been rudely awakened to the threat of nutty Muslims with WMDs. So yes, 9/11 did change things.</I><BR/><BR/>Bravo Revenant!Cyrus Pinkertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09849126166866751019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-2646192173317692082007-05-01T12:21:00.000-05:002007-05-01T12:21:00.000-05:00People who claim "9/11 changed everything!" are si...<I>People who claim "9/11 changed everything!" are simply reactionaries.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm amused by your belief that a supermajority of Americans are reactionaries. Also amusing is your claim that people who reacted to 9/11 by setting out to rebuild the Middle East qualify as "people opposed to political change".<BR/><BR/><I>His main justification for the invasion was WMD. Do you think somehow Bush would have overlooked this if we hadn't been attacked on 9/11?</I><BR/><BR/>Apparently you're one of these lefty mouth-breathers who thinks the President just gets to invade whatever country he wants to, whenever he wants to. Even assuming you buy into the paranoid conspiracy theory that Bush had planned to invade Iraq all along, he would not have been able to if Americans had not been rudely awakened to the threat of nutty Muslims with WMDs. So yes, 9/11 did change things.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11496576481709316302007-05-01T12:11:00.000-05:002007-05-01T12:11:00.000-05:00I just love how this thread has gone from "the Bus...<I>I just love how this thread has gone from "the Bush Administration never said there was a connection between Saddam and 9/11" to an exposition of all the "evidence" that indeed there was such a connection (even though the President never said there was). So apparently this means the administration is so incompetent they never made the connection when they should have.</I><BR/><BR/>The intelligent explanation, of course, is that the evidence connecting Hussein to 9/11 is not strong enough to say for certain that he had anything to do with it. We know that he had the means, motive, and opportunity, and that he had connections to the right people -- but there's no smoking gun. All we can say for certain, based on the evidence we have, is that the people who keep bleating "there was no connection between Hussein and al Qaeda" are talking out of their ass.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-3318449292509405472007-05-01T03:47:00.000-05:002007-05-01T03:47:00.000-05:00revenant wrote: Sadly, what this major event could...<I>revenant wrote: <BR/><BR/>Sadly, what this major event could possibly have been remains a mystery. Scientists have narrowed it down to some time in late summer or early autumn of 2001, but an exact date remains impossible to pin down...</I><BR/><BR/>Hmmm. I've reviewed the news from the summer of 2001 and the "major event" that apparently held Bush's full attention at that time was a massive invasion of brush in Crawford Texas.<BR/><BR/>People who claim "9/11 changed everything!" are simply reactionaries. Terrorism wasn't invented on 9/11. Terrorism is nothing new, and terrorist attacks on the US are nothing new. The only "new" aspect of the 9/11 attack was the nature and magnitude of the attack. <BR/><BR/>The idea that Bush wouldn't have invaded Iraq if 9/11 hadn't happened is fairly preposterous <B>IF</B> you take Bush at his word. His main justification for the invasion was WMD. Do you think somehow Bush would have overlooked this if we hadn't been attacked on 9/11? And as far as Bush's other excuses for the invasion (e.g., Saddam is a brutal tyrannt, Iraqis are suffering), do you claim 9/11 somehow changed those factors?<BR/><BR/>My take on this is that Bush's debate comments ("jokes") should never have been taken seriously by anyone. I didn't believe then and I don't believe now that they honestly reflected his thinking. And I doubt 9/11 significantly changed Bush's ideas about the use of US military power throughout the world. My suspicion is that Bush cynically used 9/11 as cover to pursue objectives that he had already been considering. This is consistent with reports from administration insiders.<BR/><BR/>In any case, I'm glad you enjoyed the "jokes."Cyrus Pinkertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09849126166866751019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-75835835797136445722007-04-30T23:26:00.000-05:002007-04-30T23:26:00.000-05:00Oh, good--whatever.Does no one understand that thi...Oh, good--whatever.<BR/><BR/>Does no one understand that this encounter <I>does not matter at all, not at all</I>? <B>It doesn't.</B>There is no larger meaning that could remotely claim <B>large</B> as its description.<BR/><BR/>Except for what it says about people who are more interested in spinnin' the spinnin' thang, from whatever POV.<BR/><BR/>Jokes, that's what you all are about. Jokes. (Like a rose, by any other name: oh-so-knowing, righteousness, irony, cleverness, aesthetics, kewlnishnes, imrighterthanyou, imlefterthanyou, mydogisbetterthanyourdog: whatever.]<BR/><BR/>What is it <B>about</B> for you people? Making room for a better life for people in general <I>and</I> making room for individual people, or making sure that your idea of "room" specifically limits those whose ideas you don't like <I>and</I> to hell with idea of exceptions that could fit quite well enogh--except that, well, you just don't like the very idea?<BR/><BR/><I>Of those people.</I><BR/><BR/>Zealots of all sides do it. Oh, yes, you do.<BR/><BR/>Phooey.reader_iamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17352836883752091339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37747908886867874182007-04-30T21:53:00.000-05:002007-04-30T21:53:00.000-05:00While Crowe and David may focus on different aspec...While Crowe and David may focus on different aspects of the encounter, nothing they have said seems to contradict Rove's claim that they were rude. <BR/><BR/>Additionally, given that both women have been vocal in their dislike of the President, I am not sure why Rove should listen to either one. <BR/><BR/>I think he made a mistake by not making a few points then ending the conversation by saying, "we will have to agree to disagree" and then moving on. <BR/><BR/>If Laurie David really cares that much about this issue, she should make drastic changes in her lifestyle instead of basically advocating policies that hurt working people in this country and cause her little to no discomfort. <BR/><BR/>Liberals always claim that war supporters (should send their own sons to war), which is a faulty argument given that we have a volunteer army (no one is actively avoiding going to war like in the 1960's when war supporters got their kids preferential treatment) and few if any children will enlist because their parents tell them to do so.<BR/><BR/>But be that as it may, along this same logic, if liberals care about global warming they should use less fuel and resources than the average person in the world. Until they do this, they should not be surprised when they are not taken seriously.The partisan moderatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05497113771827498568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-59482538836505073462007-04-30T21:50:00.000-05:002007-04-30T21:50:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.The partisan moderatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05497113771827498568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-73739838723884886332007-04-30T21:27:00.000-05:002007-04-30T21:27:00.000-05:00reader -- I get my info from anywhere except TV, w...reader -- I get my info from anywhere except TV, which I do not watch, and drudge, which I won't read (a prejudice picked up when I read alt.showbiz.gossip).MadisonManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01212179466758420208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-84145234648328672902007-04-30T21:22:00.000-05:002007-04-30T21:22:00.000-05:00ann,do you really think fred barnes is a neutral o...ann,<BR/><BR/>do you really think fred barnes is a neutral observer?<BR/><BR/>you teach law, right?The Exaltedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18030346881185443267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-39040091700730593172007-04-30T21:21:00.000-05:002007-04-30T21:21:00.000-05:00Sloanasaurus said... I thought Rove worked for ...<I>Sloanasaurus said...<BR/><BR/> I thought Rove worked for the President and the President worked for the people?<BR/><BR/> The Bush Administration has been mostly scandal free. Only Scooter Libby who was prosecuted on trumped up charges by Fitzmas (aka Nifong), has seen any potential jail time.</I><BR/><BR/>this same exact comment was made on NRO or its like. sloan, are you a real person or just a talking point conveyor? i mean, honestly, how could anyone be serious with that statement. even my die-hard GOP parents take a "better than the dems" attitude with their eyes open...The Exaltedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18030346881185443267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-92129574539212490002007-04-30T21:19:00.000-05:002007-04-30T21:19:00.000-05:00Synova said: “I didn't believe Crow's version of e...Synova said: “<I>I didn't believe Crow's version of events for even a moment because she presented her behavior as having an expectation of Rove being a sympathetic audience. That can only have been a lie.</I>”<BR/><BR/>That is a brilliant insight. I am going to commit its structure to memory and tuck it into my bag of tricks.<BR/><BR/>Synova, I owe you money.Bissagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04439910009646381418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-85680433427667968312007-04-30T20:58:00.000-05:002007-04-30T20:58:00.000-05:00Raise of hands!How many of you--leftrightcenterwha...Raise of hands!<BR/><BR/>How many of you--leftrightcenterwhatever--primarily get your info from blogs/general newspapers, etc. Of those, how many diversify?<BR/><BR/>How many of you go outside to obvious sources of sustained argumentation and information-gathering? And from diverse examples of both?<BR/><BR/>How LONG have you been doing that? Regardless of that, what's your starting point (place it in history, your personal and more generally)? OK, that was a duck: How old are you and how long have you had exposure in real time?<BR/><BR/>Certain parts of what's being debated--from whatever stance--makes me really wonder.<BR/><BR/>Words, words, words, words. (Etc.--links are an extension of words.) They signify just so much, and no more.<BR/><BR/>Yet they count for so much!<BR/><BR/>Well, at least there's one way in which the loudest left/right, partisan voices perfectly overlap.<BR/><BR/>How lovely is that?reader_iamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17352836883752091339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-16425193973340999572007-04-30T20:24:00.000-05:002007-04-30T20:24:00.000-05:00"I love how this has gone from Crow poking Rove to...<I>"I love how this has gone from Crow poking Rove to a fight about Saddam and 9-11."</I><BR/><BR/>"Althouse vortex" or no, at the bottom of it all is the black hole of Iraq; no comment thread escapes its irresistable pull forever!Paco Wovéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00053886112561036768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-7390851260877918722007-04-30T19:56:00.000-05:002007-04-30T19:56:00.000-05:00I love how this has gone from Crow poking Rove to ...I love how this has gone from Crow poking Rove to a fight about Saddam and 9-11.<BR/><BR/>I didn't believe Crow's version of events for even a moment because she presented her behavior as having an expectation of Rove being a sympathetic audience. That can only have been a lie. Everyone *knows* that Rove is the Dark Lord (except when Cheney is the Dark Lord, maybe they take turns).<BR/><BR/>So describing her sweet demeanor while talking to Rove and how she went from being hopeful to heartbroken that he wouldn't listen after all... it has no credibility what-so-ever.<BR/><BR/>*Funniest* diversion from the topic in this comment thread... Michelle Malkin's breasts. For what it's worth, if she starts to whine about the comments saying how cute a cheerleader she made, I'm sure Ann will criticize her for dressing up cute and then being upset that men were looking at her body. <BR/><BR/>Personally, I didn't think the cheerleader thing was that clever though Malkin is undeniably cute. Some of Mary-Katherine Hamm's recent videos are fabulous. The Dr. Seuss take on Reid was too funny.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52964888347385085332007-04-30T19:52:00.000-05:002007-04-30T19:52:00.000-05:00Oh, and one last thing....Who was it again a few w...Oh, and one last thing....<BR/><BR/>Who was it again a few weeks ago who strapped those children (babies?) in a car and blew them up at a checkpoint in Iraq?<BR/><BR/>Ba'athists loyal to Saddam?<BR/>Iranian terrorists?<BR/>al-Qaeda terrorists from Syria?<BR/><BR/>That's the scum we're fighting. <BR/><BR/>Shame on us forever if we surrender to such evil.George M. Spencerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07818413936028778734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-10620649420309288732007-04-30T19:48:00.000-05:002007-04-30T19:48:00.000-05:00Doesn't matter whether or not Saddam was/was not/w...Doesn't matter whether or not Saddam was/was not/was somewhat involved with al-Qaeda. <BR/><BR/>He himself was a terrorist and had to go. He's dee eee aye dead. <BR/><BR/>The Iranians (and Syrians) back Hezbollah. All three are rogue terror entities. They've gotta go too. Only question is when. <BR/><BR/>As for the Saudis, they're pumping oil like crazy to help us and weaken the Iranians. In short, they're useful to us. For the time being.<BR/><BR/>Thems is the hard cold facts, gentlemen and ladies.George M. Spencerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07818413936028778734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-83495682364282198062007-04-30T19:37:00.000-05:002007-04-30T19:37:00.000-05:00Freder, no kidding. First they say no-one ever lin...Freder, no kidding. First they say no-one ever linked 9/11 and Iraq. Then, it morphs to several different permuations as the record is laid out. <BR/><BR/>And, Fen, I just can't take seriously these Powerline attempts to spin the facts. It's just sad. Saddam and al qaeda did not mix. They've been lying to you. <BR/><BR/>Let's back up and look at who did attack us on 9/11 and who really backed them. If you want to pin it on any one nation, the should be Saudi Arabia. Most of the hijackers were Saudi, much of al aqeda funding is Saudi. This i think we can agree on. <BR/><BR/>We're funding both sides of the fight with al qaeda, once through the Pentagon and once at the pump. <BR/><BR/>And that's where I prefer we focus our attention.AlphaLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08711124490821422066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-276640070392895232007-04-30T19:32:00.000-05:002007-04-30T19:32:00.000-05:00"I just love how this thread has gone from "the Bu...<I>"I just love how this thread has gone from "the Bush Administration never said there was a connection between Saddam and 9/11" to an exposition of all the "evidence" that indeed there was such a connection..."</I><BR/><BR/>I thought that what Fen., <I>et al.</I>, were trying to show was evidence of a link between <I>Hussein and al Qaeda in general</I>, not a link between <I>Hussein and 9/11 specifically</I>.<BR/><BR/>Related but not identical things, kind of like how <I>Niger</I> and <I>Africa</I> are not the same thing.Paco Wovéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00053886112561036768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-8074860321323524042007-04-30T19:08:00.000-05:002007-04-30T19:08:00.000-05:00I just love how this thread has gone from "the Bus...I just love how this thread has gone from "the Bush Administration never said there was a connection between Saddam and 9/11" to an exposition of all the "evidence" that indeed there was such a connection (even though the President never said there was).<BR/><BR/>So apparently this means the administration is so incompetent they never made the connection when they should have.<BR/><BR/>I think my head will explode.Freder Fredersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01498410102809290399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-23765707264322307352007-04-30T18:56:00.000-05:002007-04-30T18:56:00.000-05:00I (as a peacemaker) offer these fine jokes by Geor...<I>I (as a peacemaker) offer these fine jokes by George Bush from his debates with Al Gore.</I><BR/><BR/>It is, indeed, difficult to see what might have prompted Bush to make the switch from neo-isolationism to nation-building and democracy promotion... why, it's almost as if there was some major event between 2000 and 2003 that affected the way Bush and millions of other Americans viewed the dysfunctional nations of the world.<BR/><BR/>Sadly, what this major event could possibly have been remains a mystery. Scientists have narrowed it down to some time in late summer or early autumn of 2001, but an exact date remains impossible to pin down...Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-71025338267686722852007-04-30T18:50:00.000-05:002007-04-30T18:50:00.000-05:00"If that's what you consider being "pro-Democrat",..."If that's what you consider being "pro-Democrat", then no wonder most left wing bloggers find you annoying and some say mean things about, and make fun of, you."<BR/><BR/>Exactly! It's NOT pro-left-wing. It's pro-Democrat, in that it recognizes the existence of Democrats who don't eat up the David-Crow shenanigans. The sensible adults in the party.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-60510518951316018982007-04-30T18:32:00.000-05:002007-04-30T18:32:00.000-05:00Kirby was commenting elsewhere on the critical im...Kirby was commenting elsewhere on the critical importance of humor in presidential debates (i.e., he thinks there aren't enough jokes, particularly by Democrats). So, as a way of easing the tension that's been building here as Democrats and Republicans bicker about the war in Iraq, I (as a peacemaker) offer these fine jokes by George Bush from his debates with Al Gore.<BR/><BR/>"I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building." <BR/><BR/>"I am worried about overcommitting our military around the world. I want to be judicious in its use."<BR/><BR/>"I think one way for us to end up being viwed as the ugly American is for us to go around the world saying, "We do it this way, so should you." <BR/><BR/>"The force must be strong enough so that the mission can be accomplished. And the exit strategy needs to be well defined."Cyrus Pinkertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09849126166866751019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88765472597117858732007-04-30T18:30:00.000-05:002007-04-30T18:30:00.000-05:00Freder - But of course the most important scandal ...Freder - <I>But of course the most important scandal is operating secret prisons and sanctioning torture, or other cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of detainees. For that one crime alone, he (along with numerous others, including that scumbag Tenet who practically admitted to it last night on 60 minutes) should be impeached, removed from office, charged with crimes, and if found guilty, serve a long jail sentence.</I><BR/><BR/>Yet Tenet and others have said interrogating Islamoid terrorists and not giving them the 5th and a team of ACLU lawyers saved 10's of thousands of lives from planned attacks at Heathrow, in Singapore, the US West Coast, Jordan, and Spain.<BR/>Of course as an enemy lover, you are upset over their treatment, Freder. Can't do much about that except hope the next big Islamoid attack takes out more like you, and less regular Americans.<BR/><BR/>***********************<BR/>I always wonder if Sheryl got her one square a day idea from Lance:<BR/><BR/><I>"He's pulling away!" "Alors, that is because we want him to...he is too smelly even for us true Frenchman or their Belgian poodles" "Mein gott, his sheiss butt up in the air it is! Holden der breath!" "Who you call Poodle, it makes Belgians sad and scared....Ah, wind is on our backs..time to close with Aromastrong.."</I><BR/><BR/>*******************<BR/><I>Roger said... <BR/>Sloan: at the risk of being a bit facetious, IMO = in my opinion. I do happen to believe that this country would be much better off if presidents went to congress to ask for a declaration of war and congress deliberated with a seriousness worthy of the issue.</I><BR/><BR/>Pity is we created the UN Charter that says declaring war is illegal. No nation has declared war since July of 1945 (Soviets against Japan) because we made it illegal to do so.<BR/>Fix the archaic language in the Constitution to make new "magic legal words" acceptable to Lefties....<BR/>OR<BR/>Withdraw from the UN and give our permanent Council Seat up to Japan or India. Then go home and say we don't have to fix the words in our old national operating manual. And can once again say the "magic words" of <I>declaring war</I> since for some reason the "story is" that almighty Congress did NOT debate majestically in past wars like Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Gulf War, or Iraq ENOUGH! Though any casual observor notes we had months of debate.<BR/>Of course, with the Magic of Declaring War satisfied, the Holy verbiage of the Sacred Founders literally complied with rather than fixed and updated for the times - we would do so with no allies ever again since we withdrew from the UN. And illegally declared war in their eyes....<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>9:33 AMCedarfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00602418702398818596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-3652073759307827792007-04-30T17:18:00.000-05:002007-04-30T17:18:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-20748301925892446232007-04-30T17:09:00.000-05:002007-04-30T17:09:00.000-05:00Fen: Powerline is not an information source. Power...Fen: <I>Powerline is not an information source. Powerline is an opinion source</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, but all these posts are links to Wapo, NYTs, 9-11 report, Sen Intel, etc <I>through</I> Powerline. Have fun.Fenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16734571593963330215noreply@blogger.com