tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post5124691987068728218..comments2024-03-28T11:21:17.240-05:00Comments on Althouse: Long "in the comments" update...Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88990546080650877692008-12-18T20:53:00.000-06:002008-12-18T20:53:00.000-06:00Heh - by sheer coincidence, today is the 41st anni...Heh - by sheer coincidence, today is the 41st anniversay of the <I>Katz</I> decision!Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-69406778390369414712008-12-18T19:50:00.000-06:002008-12-18T19:50:00.000-06:00Garage - ah, I get you now. Well, I'm not a Fourth...Garage - ah, I get you now. Well, I'm not a Fourth Amendment guy, I don't know the doctrine around it. But I don't think that most of the doomsayers are Fourth Amendment experts, either, and my instinct is that the lion's share of the concern about the imminent demise of the Fourth Amendment is overwrought (my recollection is that folks who <I>are</I> Fourth Amendment experts, Orin Kerr springs to mind, are not alarmed, and that too pacifies me). <BR/><BR/>One other thing to note is that in <I>Katz</I>, <A HREF="http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0389_0347_ZD.html" REL="nofollow">Justice Black argued that wiretaps were beyond the scope of the Fourth Amendment anyway</A>. Now, I'm not saying that I'd overrule <I>Katz</I>. Black's argument, however, is at least strong enough to limit my concern that expanding wiretaps would hollow out the Fourth Amendment <I>even if</I> the doomsayers are right aobut the extent that wiretapping has been authorized.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-25730714682296330862008-12-18T18:26:00.000-06:002008-12-18T18:26:00.000-06:00I'm touched by the concern that some conservatives...I'm touched by the concern that some conservatives are showing for Obama's supposed selling out of liberal values. Considering it's coming from a demographic that spent most of the past year talking about what a horrible socialist, terrorist-loving monster Obama is, but now is changing its tune when it's obvious they have to live with him for four to eight years, I can't say there's much credibility there. And as a former Hillary supporter, it's particularly amusing to see her choice as Secretary of State brought out as an example of Obama's supposed conservatism, when she was considered to be the focus of all liberal evil not so long ago.<BR/><BR/>I guess the new conservative slogan for Obama is a variation of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em", with the variation being "if you can't beat 'em, claim they joined you" or "if you can't beat 'em, claim they aren't really with the people that beat us".<BR/><BR/>And as far as Warren is concerned, as a gay marriage supporting straight (and I actually do give a damn about the issue, sorry garage), I can't say I'm too worked up about it. It's an olive branch to more liberal evangelicals, and I leave it for others to decide whether it's sincere or not. I'm more interested in seeing who Obama appoints to his administration and the policies he pursues than who prays for him on Inauguration Day. My only gripe is that if Obama was going to put up a socially conservative / economically somewhat liberal clergyman up there, I wish he put up an intellectually serious Catholic priest on the podium (were there no Jesuits available from Georgetown University?), rather than a purveyor of Prosperity Gospel schlock. But, I guess you go hunting where the ducks are.somefellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15013403004665789644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41933346052751617452008-12-18T17:43:00.000-06:002008-12-18T17:43:00.000-06:00SimonMake that the 4th Amendment. In regards to th...Simon<BR/>Make that the 4th Amendment. In regards to the phoney FISA "compromise" which made warrantless wiretaps on anyone legal now.garage mahalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485491995866513686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-83713918082264052162008-12-18T16:50:00.000-06:002008-12-18T16:50:00.000-06:00garage mahal said..."The 14th Amendment just went ...garage mahal said...<BR/>"<I>The 14th Amendment just went out the window with barely a whimper, and I think that's fucking sad. Where the hell were conservatives on this?</I>"<BR/><BR/>Sorry, I don't understand. What are you talking about? I know I've been rather out of the loop this week, but what's happened regarding the Fourteenth Amendment?<BR/><BR/>BJM said...<BR/>"<I>Ironically, the Left will soon come to appreciate Bush's strengthening of executive powers.</I>"<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://stubbornfacts.us/history/other_side_web_today" REL="nofollow">Dick Cheney, Jack Balkin and Eric Posner agree</A>, as do I.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-44889841115159228802008-12-18T15:02:00.000-06:002008-12-18T15:02:00.000-06:00DBQ said: Schadenfreude is not only a cool soundi...DBQ said:<I> <BR/> Schadenfreude is not only a cool sounding word, it is a wonderful feeling.</I><BR/><BR/>I'd hold off on basking in the warm glow of schadenfreude just yet. Obama is not even at the end of the beginning. He may be tossing the cultural center a sop while diverting the media in useless speculation and reportage; i.e. "Look! Over there! A bright shiny outrage of the day!!" <BR/><BR/>It would be far more pragmatic to delay symbolic victories for huge substantive wins once he assumes power.<BR/><BR/>Obama is now fully briefed, he is forced to reassess as there are realities he cannot change, events that dictate a narrow set of options, many will not jibe with Obama's philosophy or political ends.<BR/><BR/>I expect Obama to proceed as he has; moving past those/that cannot be changed and/or damage his political position and present a new agenda as nuanced positions of his campaign platform.<BR/><BR/>I also think Obama is too savvy to repeat Clinton's early mistakes of wading into cultural mind fields.<BR/><BR/>While the media focuses on the left's big ticket wish list, scandal and the usual hot button issues, a small play of many acts will be running "off Broadway". <BR/><BR/>Obama will wield considerable unchecked executive power and as a small "l" libertarian that worries me most.<BR/><BR/>Ironically, the Left will soon come to appreciate Bush's strengthening of executive powers.BJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447134335568803085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-7707479042672190202008-12-18T13:30:00.000-06:002008-12-18T13:30:00.000-06:00John, some good points in your rebuttal, but I dis...John, some good points in your rebuttal, but I disagree (obviously) with other points:<BR/><BR/>Agree - <I>People need to stop looking at politics like sports and stop rooting for laundry. Instead, we need to think about what the real options are and what any President actually can and will do.</I><BR/><BR/>Agree very much!<BR/><BR/><I>You assume that all trends happening now will continue to do so indefinitely.</I> <BR/>Obviously, trends used to make projections in any analysis could stop or reverse from factors the analysts haven't considered. At the same time, it is more realistic to go on solid trends than on the emotional hope that "Our Goddess Sarah Palin" will save us!<BR/><BR/><I>They are not old enough to remember Carter or the really crazy economic policies of the 1970s.</I><BR/><BR/>True, but they won't be adding any numbers to those that were around back in Jimmy's day. Or Eisenhowers..Obama himself was just in high school when the failed Presidency of Carter happened. I was in junior high..Only if Obama becomes another Jimmy will oldsters try and make Jimmy Carter relevant to Obama's leadership.<BR/><BR/><I>You can't get around the hard cold reality that big government old time socialism doesn't work.</I><BR/><BR/>Disagree. Ever since Bismarck proved it worked, various welfare state socialist governments have formed in advanced countries. Most prosperous and in power since WWII ended. 3rd world failures aside, advanced nations like Japan, Germany, Canada, Chile, Australia, Sweden, Switzerland, France, Israel have substantial socialist elements to their life and do well.<BR/><BR/>I am not a fan of every socialist solution over any capitalist one. But we have to acknowledge that "unfettered, unregulated" free markets have singularly failed the American worker on health care, reliable financial institutions, and CEOs out to destroy US jobs and national prosperity for their short-term personal gain.<BR/><BR/><I>Where is he going to get the money for socialized healthcare when we are running a trillion dollar deficit?</I><BR/><BR/>From the simple fact that we pay 50% more per capita in healthcare costs under the present system than nations with longer life expectancies, like France, Japan, Israel do. Business and tax groups agree the present US system cripples us economically and is unsustainable. They do by using advanced IT, eliminating much of the admin, insurance, legal bureaucracy the US has...and tough negotiations for prices caregivers, nursing home operators, and drug makers charge.<BR/><BR/><I>How does he plan to cut defense and get a peace bonus when he has already said he will not pull out of Iraq too quickly and will surge troops into Afghanistan?</I><BR/><BR/>The days of 200 billion a year Bush expenses on military occupation & "whatever the noble freedom-loving democratic people of Iraq demand" <BR/>is basically over. <BR/>I doubt Obama can make significant cuts given Iran, China's exploding military budget and Russia's revanchism, and plans for more attention on the Afghan situation (which is now basically lost by Bush's neglect for 6 years and toleration of corrupt Pak and Afghan leaders.)<BR/><BR/><I>If they don't get a dose of that (Carterism) and Obama acts like Clinton and lowers taxes, has a sane trade policy and balances the budget, then why should I care if the Dems do win? </I><BR/><BR/>I agree with that! We can hope. Of course, the people that worship old Reagan economic ideology that failed to work as advertised, and worship the Goddess Palin will be upset.<BR/><BR/><I>When you look at it that way, the President, be he R or D, really doesn't have a lot of options. That fact is going to come as a big disapointment to a lot of Obama supporters. But, that is probably the best thing to come out of this election. It will force a lot of twits like Garage Mahal to grow up and face reality.</I><BR/><BR/>Disagree in that in really bad times of us facing catastrophe, Presidents like Lincoln, FDR, Nixon, Reagan could get a lot done.. Agree that Garage Mahal is a twit, but when he sets his mind to be serious rather than regurgitate Lefty talking points, he can make some pretty good posts.Cedarfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00602418702398818596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-57649368939740383022008-12-18T13:09:00.000-06:002008-12-18T13:09:00.000-06:00I tend to assume he's like all the liberal lawprof...<I>I tend to assume he's like all the liberal lawprofs I know, but I concede that these people may be chameleons. They are seeking power and prestige in their domain. (Why won't I say "our domain"?) But you have a point.</I><BR/><BR/>Could be. But I think that you're right that liberal lawprofs may be chameleons, or not so much chameleons as regular people who generally reflect the concerns of their surroundings. I would bet that in law school, gay marriage is a hot topic. <BR/><BR/>But I don't think that Obama's primary environment is law school. I think he's more likely to be almost totally ambivalent about gay issues because of the following:<BR/><BR/>(1) He's a straight man, and most straight men aren't into gay issues. That's not to say that they're against things like gay marriage, but that those issues don't resonate with them. They just don't really care. Sure, there are exceptions, but I think they are few. People who are deeply concerned with gay issues tend to be gay people and young women. <BR/><BR/>(2) I don't think that gay issues are a big concern in South Chicago, especially within the black community there. Thus, I don't think that much interest in gay issues would be generated by that environment.<BR/><BR/>(3) We hear about Obama's various friends and associates all the time now. Any of them gay? I haven't heard of one. Any of them gay activists? I haven't heard of one.<BR/><BR/>(4) The above taken along with the fact that Obama is showing no interest in tackling gay issues as an elected official leads me to believe that his personal interest in gay issues just isn't there.Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36159364364777713092008-12-18T12:44:00.000-06:002008-12-18T12:44:00.000-06:00The sad fact is that I have to live in the same co...<I>The sad fact is that I have to live in the same country with people like you. The quicker more of you grow up and face reality, the better off we will all be. As it is, the rattle banging temper fits of the last 8 years have gotten pretty old.</I><BR/><BR/>WTF are you talking about? I said I don't care about Warren, or Obama inviting him to speak for 2 minutes. Reality is I do not care.<BR/><BR/>Simon:<BR/><I>Garage, my memory may be faulty here, but I seem to recall your having written about opposing the marriage amendment in Wisconsin.</I><BR/><BR/>I did vote against it, and I'm happy states get to vote on it. If gay liberals are upset about it they can get in line. Of the top ten pet issues of mine, gay marriage isn't in it. The things that really irk me are always civil liberties related like I think pot should be decriminalized, and the fact so many are sitting in jail from smoking or growing it is absurd. If Obama would take a real stand on issues like search and seizure, surveillance, etc I could really get behind him, but I'm not holding my breath. The 14th Amendment just went out the window with barely a whimper, and I think that's fucking sad. Where the hell were conservatives on this?garage mahalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485491995866513686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37915454600631530482008-12-18T12:20:00.000-06:002008-12-18T12:20:00.000-06:00Very well said, John Stodder. And thank you for sa...Very well said, John Stodder. And thank you for saying it.Darcyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05642443487136176511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36882786353094262752008-12-18T12:15:00.000-06:002008-12-18T12:15:00.000-06:00John, as usual, your comments are well stated and ...John, as usual, your comments are well stated and I basically agree. I've chided our host for citing AS too much because he's never shown me anything worth the attention he gets (yet I'm doing it). I think he writes to aggravate anyone who likes being aggravated or who likes writing about aggravating writers.SteveRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12864387606863466980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-12615428371576780472008-12-18T12:11:00.000-06:002008-12-18T12:11:00.000-06:00OBAMA RESPONDS - TODAY'S PRESS CONFERENCE: "Wel...OBAMA RESPONDS - TODAY'S PRESS CONFERENCE:<BR/><BR/> "Well, let me start by talking about my own views. I think it is no secret that I am a fierce advocate for equality for gay and lesbian Americans. It is something I have been consistent on and something that I intend to continue to be consistent on during my presidency.<BR/><BR/> "What I've also said is that it is important for America to come together even though we may have disagreements on certain social issues. And I would note that a couple of years ago I was invited to Rick Warren's church to speak, despite his awareness that I held views that were entirely contrary to his when it came to gay and lesbian rights, when it came to issues like abortion.<BR/><BR/> "Nevertheless, I had an opportunity to speak, and that dialog, I think, is a part of what my campaign's been all about, that we're never going to agree on every single issue. But what we have to do is create an atmosphere where we can disagree without being disagreeable, and then focus on those things that we hold in common as Americans. So Rick Warren has been invited to speak, Dr. Joseph Lowery -- who has deeply contrasting views to Rick Warren on a whole host of issues -- is also speaking.<BR/><BR/> "During the course of the entire inaugural festivities, there are going to be a wide range of viewpoints that are presented -- and that how it should be, because that's what America's about, that's a part of the magic of this country is that we are diverse and noisy and opinionated. So, that's the spirit in which we have put together what I think will be a terrific inauguration, and that's hopefully going to be a spirit that carries over into my administration."<BR/><BR/>This certainly sounds reasonable.Robertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15134027971098573102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78141461498994664092008-12-18T12:06:00.000-06:002008-12-18T12:06:00.000-06:00Hear that libtards? While you cannot see what we s...<I>Hear that libtards? While you cannot see what we see; Obama is playing you! </I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. All those upset about it are exactly the people he takes for granted. You were going to vote for McCain? Again, McCardle’s first rule in politiccs.<BR/><BR/>Warren here is a symbol - and not an actual endorsement of anything. Chill…<BR/><BR/><I>He will hire some dyke or fag to try and resolve this I am sure-that should make the mos shut up.</I><BR/><BR/>Good call - the Washington Times is reporting that Barack Obama is considering the appointment of an openly gay man, William White, currenty the COO of the Intrepid Museum Foundation, as Secretary of the Navy.kjbehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02205930548533839170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-83241921560751736012008-12-18T11:58:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:58:00.000-06:00Much as I'd like to, I can't dismiss Sullivan so e...Much as I'd like to, I can't dismiss Sullivan so easily. The Atlantic and various talking head shows give him intellectual respectability. He wrote Atlantic's cover story on Obama, for example. He uses his own hawkish past to give his current views credibility. His invention of the term "Christianist" as a parallel to "Islamist," both of which are parallels to "racist," was a political act, designed to reinforce this country's social divisions between the religious and the secular -- divisions that already exist, so his play is redundant at best, a formalization of secular intolerance of religious people at worst. That, I suspect, is his hope: To foster intolerance of the religious among the non-religious, to take them detached, uncomprehending tolerance to all-out culture war. It is not benign, and I say that as a secular type person who rarely attends church.John Stodderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14185881995621265497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-5934616028019263572008-12-18T11:55:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:55:00.000-06:00"And given Obama's stated beliefs on gay marriage,..."And given Obama's stated beliefs on gay marriage, it is intellectually dishonest for Sullivan not to apply it to the president-elect."<BR/><BR/>Sullivan has made a lucrative career out of intellectual dishonesty.Palladianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01105490715666718993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-15174355042929344762008-12-18T11:43:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:43:00.000-06:00John, I tend to start with a rebuttable presumptio...John, I tend to start with a rebuttable presumption that people like Sullivan who habitually use the term "Christianist" are too stupid to be worth the attempt to carry on a conversation with. In Sully's case, the presumption is confirmed by his claim to be a Catholic (he isn't). He's an idiot, and been brain dead since this whole gay marriage issue consumed him.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-69665389597309904242008-12-18T11:35:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:35:00.000-06:00I'm still stuck on the idea that Rick Warren is a ...I'm still stuck on the idea that Rick Warren is a "Christianist." If Andrew Sullivan limited that word to the very bigoted, extreme types who rationalize things like murdering abortion doctors, he'd have a minor point. But basically, he's applying that term to everyone who disagrees with him who happens to be a Christian. Assuming he has fans out there, I think the term itself, used the way Sullivan uses it, is sheer bigotry. And given Obama's stated beliefs on gay marriage, it is intellectually dishonest for Sullivan <I>not</I> to apply it to the president-elect. In fact, given his slavish Bush-love turned into hate over the same exact issue, I expect Sullivan will soon be calling for the prosecution of Obama and Biden for war crimes.John Stodderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14185881995621265497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-2863627244228070392008-12-18T11:34:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:34:00.000-06:00Ken Stalter - read Marsh v. Chambers.Ken Stalter - read <I>Marsh v. Chambers</I>.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-47439073264536097452008-12-18T11:32:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:32:00.000-06:00Garage, my memory may be faulty here, but I seem t...Garage, my memory may be faulty here, but I seem to recall your having written about opposing the marriage amendment in Wisconsin. If I'm remembering right, how do you square that against what I take to be your comment above claiming disinterest in the issue? (I realize that there are various reasons why one might oppose such an amendment that have nothing to do with the merits of same-sex marriage, so I'm not trying to prejudge the answer in phrasing the question this way.)Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56862267274684958892008-12-18T11:30:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:30:00.000-06:00"It will force a lot of twits like Garage Mahal to..."It will force a lot of twits like Garage Mahal to grow up and face reality.<BR/><BR/>Your concern is appreciated. I think I'll be okay."<BR/><BR/><BR/>My concern has nothing to do with any concern over you personally. The sad fact is that I have to live in the same country with people like you. The quicker more of you grow up and face reality, the better off we will all be. As it is, the rattle banging temper fits of the last 8 years have gotten pretty old.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02964994591293819655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-63636330835616639962008-12-18T11:26:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:26:00.000-06:00It will force a lot of twits like Garage Mahal to ...<I>It will force a lot of twits like Garage Mahal to grow up and face reality.</I><BR/><BR/>Your concern is appreciated. I think I'll be okay.garage mahalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485491995866513686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-46934389605653935652008-12-18T11:18:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:18:00.000-06:00I suspect conservatives aren't laughing and quite ...<I>I suspect conservatives aren't laughing and quite opposite, are worried this centrist schtick is appealing to, and adding to a whole next generation of Democrats.</I><BR/><BR/>Have you been paying any attention? It's not exactly news that most conservatives have been pleased so far with Obama. He moves farther to the right every day! His cabinet appointments, his stance on the Iraq War, tax cuts, etc. have been a pleasant surprise to us. It's looking quite like Bush Term 3. Sorry, I know that was below the belt.knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231876226573540476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52220218645816414172008-12-18T11:11:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:11:00.000-06:00How much fun are you going to have watching your c...<I>How much fun are you going to have watching your candidate sell you out?</I><BR/><BR/>Like I said, I don't give a shit about Warren, so he's not selling me out. I'm not gay, and I don't really give a shit about gay marriage one way or the other.garage mahalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485491995866513686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-5800567808227364272008-12-18T11:10:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:10:00.000-06:00Cederford,You assume that all trends happening now...Cederford,<BR/><BR/>You assume that all trends happening now will continue to do so indefinitely. To the extent that younger people are solid Democrat, it is because their only experience with Democratic leadership was Clinton, who was economically at least a Republican anyway. They are not old enough to remember Carter or the really crazy economic policies of the 1970s. Give them a dose of that and they won't be so solidly Democratic anymore. If they don't get a dose of that and Obama acts like Clinton and lowers taxes, has a sane trade policy and balances the budget, then why should I care if the Dems do win? <BR/><BR/>You can't get around the hard cold reality that big government old time socialism doesn't work. If Obama wants to succeed as a President, his options are pretty limited. Those options don't include much if anything his liberal supporters hold dear. How exactly does he plan to raise taxes in the middle of a nasty recession? Where is he going to get the money for socialized healthcare when we are running a trillion dollar deficit? How does he plan to cut defense and get a peace bonus when he has already said he will not pull out of Iraq too quickly and will surge troops into Afghanistan? <BR/><BR/>People need to stop looking at politics like sports and stop rooting for laundry. Instead, we need to think about what the real options are and what any President actually can and will do. When you look at it that way, the President, be he R or D, really doesn't have a lot of options. That fact is going to come as a big disapointment to a lot of Obama supporters. But, that is probably the best thing to come out of this election. It will force a lot of twits like Garage Mahal to grow up and face reality.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02964994591293819655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-72985521070985846562008-12-18T11:05:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:05:00.000-06:00You're right. This could ruin Clay Aiken's career....<I>You're right. This could ruin Clay Aiken's career.</I><BR/><BR/>Webster prefers <I>Gayken.</I>knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231876226573540476noreply@blogger.com