tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post4938000894388191912..comments2024-03-28T16:46:51.467-05:00Comments on Althouse: "Palin depicts the McCain campaign as overscripted, defeatist, disorganized and dunder-headed..."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger124125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-46253154266397037332009-11-16T19:04:27.201-06:002009-11-16T19:04:27.201-06:00"Palin depicts the McCain campaign as overscr...<i>"Palin depicts the McCain campaign as overscripted, defeatist, disorganized and dunder-headed..."</i><br /><br />I didn't need Palin to tell me that. I could see it whenever McCain spoke in public. He was trying so hard to control his temper, that he came across as flat and empty.st <br /><br />I don't know why the press keeps pushing up her presence in the mind of the public. Don't they know that there's no such thing as bad publicity (unless you're Carrie Prejean)? She got a huge advance and she's fulfilling her contract. So what? She had to say something in the book. I'm sure she had advise on what to talk about. Meh.ASThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14591247136037620408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79913577506404811512009-11-15T21:10:37.614-06:002009-11-15T21:10:37.614-06:00Thanks for the discussion. Good night to you too.Thanks for the discussion. Good night to you too.Ritmo Re-Animatedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15912086218531198114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70408074588699307102009-11-15T21:05:32.901-06:002009-11-15T21:05:32.901-06:00Well spoken Ritmo/JSM. Good night.Well spoken Ritmo/JSM. Good night.traditionalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05706120413005530014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-66882953556620936522009-11-15T20:43:40.377-06:002009-11-15T20:43:40.377-06:00"Ritmo/JSM...The dark ages were a breakdown i..."Ritmo/JSM...The dark ages were a breakdown in education in a world in chaos from conquests."<br /><br />I'm not completely certain about this - I think it's been contested - and anyway, this reference is to Europe and certain majority communities within Europe, which may not be a universal point of historical reference for all Americans. <br /><br />"The monastaries brought learning back in time. In The USA education has 90 % been instituted among common men by their churches who taught literacy and sent them to Church schools."<br /><br />I'm not sure about this one either, but am pretty sure that universal education was guaranteed around the early 20th century and would have been instituted through the system of public education that we have in the states. That system has been heavily criticized from about the 1970s onward in various regards. But there is no denying its success by a whole series of benchmarks when compared to other countries throughout the early 20th century, when it was seen as an innovation that they subsequently copied. <br /><br />"The virtue you seek is in men and women from their God and from their church."<br /><br />Not really. These can be secular as well.<br /><br />"Only since 1964 or so has vulgarity become a positive marker here."<br /><br />Since Wood is referencing the generation immediately following the founders onward, it's important that we broaden the scope of our definition of "vulgar". Further, it is important to see the rigid conformism of the 1950s as somewhat of a cultural aberration in America. I don't think Wood means to refer simply to coarse language on TV or graphic sexual depictions, but something much wider in meaning.<br /><br />"So I percieve that Sarah Palin's avoidance of vulgarity is a plus to you."<br /><br />You could be right. Since she is not someone I'm rooting for (politically) other than for success in her own personal life, I fully admit to not being so immersed in her situation as to have a great awareness of which of her qualities would tend to register with me and which wouldn't. <br /><br />"The rest of the virtue you seek comes when numbers of people each contribute a part of complete virtue in a group from a shared experience, lest any man brag. Can you live without bragging about virtue in one great man, be he the scholar of the moment, the King, or the sham Messiah?"<br /><br />Herein lies what I perceive to be your most interesting and perhaps most challenging point in the thread. You seem to be saying that a certain type of virtue might depend on a sense of community and what each individual seeks to contribute to that community. Although I admit to a nostalgic and passing sense of fondness for a certain, mildly communitarian ethic, I find that ethic to be difficult to encourage in America. I suspect that by even uttering these words, I am coming close to receiving vituperation from the others for being a "commie", or whatever. But I digress. Life in America has taught me that while others may chip in when they see a troubled stranger in danger, they hardly care about his day-to-day well-being and that doing so is discouraged and thought unprofitable. Things might be a bit different in the South but they are certainly that way throughout the rest of the country and I have coped with that fact and accommodated my own life and choice of friends around that fact. <br /><br />So this leads us full circle to the longstanding observation of virtue as a largely private quality. It may be exhibited publicly, but its application is individual in nature and loses meaning when defined according to a social perspective. Especially in a two-party system, where consensus is difficult and permanent political conflict becomes the natural state, it will be exceedingly hard to find any one particular person who will be thought virtuous by a large majority of people. If that happens, then we might be on to a better point in our history. But I hold no expectation that this will occur anytime soon.Ritmo Re-Animatedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15912086218531198114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-66584100121835072882009-11-15T20:17:19.264-06:002009-11-15T20:17:19.264-06:00Ritmo/JSM...The dark ages were a breakdown in edu...Ritmo/JSM...The dark ages were a breakdown in education in a world in chaos from conquests. The monastaries brought learning back in time. In The USA education has 90 % been instituted among common men by their churches who taught literacy and sent them to Church schools. The virtue you seek is in men and women from their God and from their church. Only since 1964 or so has vulgarity become a positive marker here. So I percieve that Sarah Palin's avoidance of vulgarity is a plus to you. The rest of the virtue you seek comes when numbers of people each contribute a part of complete virtue in a group from a shared experience, lest any man brag. Can you live without bragging about virtue in one great man, be he the scholar of the moment, the King, or the sham Messiah?traditionalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05706120413005530014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24103643108732859932009-11-15T20:00:37.172-06:002009-11-15T20:00:37.172-06:00I agree with you and to the extent that you seem t...I agree with you and to the extent that you seem to be saying that there are certain virtues specific to common folk, and that we should respect and admire and elevate those virtues, I understand and respect where you're coming from on that score as well. <br /><br />But where Wood is coming from is a different place where we mistakenly equate a low tolerance for elitism with a tolerance for vulgarity anti-intellectualism, etc. I think it's important to be able to be informal. I also think it's important to be willing to refer and occasionally defer to such things as "common sense" as well - especially when it's a way to illustrate the limitations of knowledge. <br /><br />But the idea that there is virtue associated with an ideal of proper conduct, or that there is virtue associated with knowledge and a sound, well-reasoned understanding of the world, is different from an attachment to elitism as a social, classist phenomenon and something I believe we shouldn't lose sight of either.Ritmo Re-Animatedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15912086218531198114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-18377968413491282252009-11-15T19:59:23.716-06:002009-11-15T19:59:23.716-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ritmo Re-Animatedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15912086218531198114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-66339197265184262722009-11-15T19:45:57.361-06:002009-11-15T19:45:57.361-06:00Ritmo/JSM...The simple view that since common peop...Ritmo/JSM...The simple view that since common people include stupid people, that they are never qualified and cannot be raised to positions of authority making the important decisions is a comforting one. It is also the downfall of those societies that use it. The BETTER view is that common people include many great men and great women both with natural skills and intelligences along with the stupid people, and that they are a great asset to American society that does the work to educate, promote and use them. Think of George Washington at Valley Forge with his common=stupid soldiers. Also think of the common=stupid Sgt York types fighting in WW I. Finally think of the elite role of Pilots that no country but the USA would allow common=stupid men and women to train for in such high numbers that we never ran out. That simple attitude difference won the USA's victory in WW II. So have fun among the great educated elites, we need them too, but a habit of sneering at common but skilled American people like Sarah Palin is so not even rational that it may be a European mental illness that Americans recovered from 220 years ago.traditionalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05706120413005530014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78309925600029217442009-11-15T19:19:34.771-06:002009-11-15T19:19:34.771-06:00I simply cannot imagine being so dumb as to thinki...I simply cannot imagine being so dumb as to thinking Ms. Moosemuffin is smart.<br /><br />What do you say to people? He that Sarah is some smarty pants ya'betcha!<br /><br />How humiliating for the right wing...."duhh! we looked all over Mooselick and Sarah just seemed to be the smartest thing goin' ... I mean..she is truly a two cent coin in a one dollar bank".hdhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14573004614816464571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-82641691022471421462009-11-15T19:12:35.237-06:002009-11-15T19:12:35.237-06:00I'm sure there are hard-core liberals/("l...I'm sure there are hard-core liberals/("lefties") who can be short-sighted in their own way, TG. <br /><br />Also, I want to iterate one thing again if I may: I (and Wood) have nothing against people who comprise the "common" class/blue collar workers. Wood is drawing a distinction between elitism and virtue and not denying that people of any and all classes can possess virtue of a sort that was one expected (only) of the elites.Ritmo Re-Animatedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15912086218531198114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-5806966434391715052009-11-15T19:00:06.348-06:002009-11-15T19:00:06.348-06:00Ritmo...That was some fancy broken field running i...Ritmo...That was some fancy broken field running in your last comment.I am convinced that you are an English scholar come here to raise the level of discourse, not that we want to see it raised. Until you reveal your background, I will nick name you JSM since you seem to hold the views of John Stuart Mill. Mill said that "not all conservatives are stupid, but all stupid people are conservatives", and that is the opinion of Palin supporters that you keep espousing.traditionalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05706120413005530014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-85575550087569637462009-11-15T18:34:00.568-06:002009-11-15T18:34:00.568-06:00Dear Traditional Guy,
As someone who has voted fo...Dear Traditional Guy,<br /><br />As someone who has voted for female candidates I have nothing against Palin being a woman and insofar as I or Theo Boehm are using the language of stereotypes (cf. his references to "soccer mom", John of Arc, etc.) we are (or at least, I am) speaking to popular conceptions or misconceptions, rather than personal appraisals - at least when it comes to my own remark. <br /><br />I should also note that I also don't really have any personal qualms with Palin. <br /><br />Further, please note well the amount of qualification I had to put out there to accompany a term that I, myself, agreed was about as clumsy a term as could have been chosen. When it first came to mind, I honestly wasn't relating it to allusions to prostitution and when I figured that these connotations couldn't be avoided, didn't wince from including it anyway due to the quite commonly interchanged references between politicians and prostitutes as occurs toward male politicians <i>all the time</i>. I realized that should greatly mitigate any perception of misogyny behind the charge/label but still apologized profusely for any perceived offense as that was not my intended aim, despite the fact that Boehm's willingness to use the language of stereotypes made it nearly impossible to move the tone of the discussion into a more objective realm, as I noted. <br /><br />Anyway, the characterization that matters was of her being underhanded, or as Boehm called it, machiavellian. <i>That</i> is the operative label and that is what mattered for the purposes of the discussion. <br /><br />However, I will admit that I did think further about the derogatory label of "prostitute" that politicians receive when accused of selling out or having so few higher principles. "Machiavellian" implies that the ends justify the means and that those ends are in themselves principles. To my mind, that comes close to a definition of unscrupulous and a justification for corruption, which is something Palin's been accused of. <br /><br />In her defense, I don't think she's as cognizant of those violations and would feel guilt or remorse if she consciously understood the gravity of the accusations, but I agree that references to prostitution are imprecise and best avoided - despite how commonly they are used in reference to politicians generally and despite how similar the charge is to that of being too corrupted to ethically and competently administer or discharge the duties of public office. <br /><br />Hope that helps clarify the whole Cambridge or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle bit.Ritmo Re-Animatedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15912086218531198114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24017369730888435242009-11-15T17:59:42.043-06:002009-11-15T17:59:42.043-06:00Ritmo...You are a lot of fun. But your attacks up...Ritmo...You are a lot of fun. But your attacks upon Palin being a woman are not any prettier because of your elegant style of writing it. Dismissing the vast unwashed American commoner class mde me think you are an educated Cambridge Don. But your going after an accomplished politician for the offense of speaking out politically while being a female makes me see you as a Moslem educated in London. This is much fun as a Sherlock Holmes short story. When will you give us more clues?traditionalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05706120413005530014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-48099288792798773612009-11-15T16:40:01.518-06:002009-11-15T16:40:01.518-06:00See, the thing is, it's not irrelevant to the ...See, the thing is, it's not irrelevant to the person I was addressing, the person making the bizarre charge of sock-puppetry. And that wasn't you, Miller. Nor are my posts generally for your benefit. People like you generally don't benefit from ideas that are unfamiliar to you or whose conclusions you need to approve of beforehand. <br /><br />So apparently things are not as they seem. You might not know it. But maybe if you focused better and stuck with the relevant topic, which is precisely what I did.<br /><br />It is not a put-down to charge that someone's thoughts are hard to follow, so don't think that I take your remark that way.Ritmo Re-Animatedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15912086218531198114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-45280286001187009772009-11-15T16:31:55.509-06:002009-11-15T16:31:55.509-06:00See, the thing is, it's irrelevant what your a...See, the thing is, it's irrelevant what your alias is -- it doesn't take long to ferret out your thoughts no matter the topic. Your posts are uniformly long, unfocused, and largely about irrelevant topics. <br /><br />C4 and Alex are in my killfile. Yours I just scroll over - there is not enough time in the world to read your stuff & to take it in any way seriously.<br /><br />You're like the Sarah Palin of this blog, it seems.millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06288790458928188846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-74810270223467909352009-11-15T16:11:01.509-06:002009-11-15T16:11:01.509-06:00Changing one's name is not the same as hiding ...Changing one's name is not the same as hiding behind a deliberately falsified alias.Ritmo Re-Animatedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15912086218531198114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-72996331846156901812009-11-15T16:08:46.021-06:002009-11-15T16:08:46.021-06:00Why do you keep on about Sarah Palin? Surely you r...<i>Why do you keep on about Sarah Palin? Surely you realize the best thing for you is to ignore her and hope she'll go away?</i><br /><br />Probably because I'm not so condescending of people who disagree with me as to assume they have no use for a less biased opinion of their own heroes, those same heroes whom they apparently can't stop talking about.Ritmo Re-Animatedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15912086218531198114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-58427220836227662512009-11-15T16:05:54.407-06:002009-11-15T16:05:54.407-06:00reader_iam and john lynch: There was no intention...reader_iam and john lynch: There was no intention of impugning your motives for buying the book. Your comments are intelligent and interesting, and I'm sure that your reasons for buying the book are sufficiently edifying. I have zero interest in Sarah's true feelings about Steven Schmidt, but others are more tuned in to such things than myself. ...I,nonetheless, maintain my position that most of the buyers of Palin's book will buy it as a way of partaking in the Palin experience and not for its literary or historical merits. I genuinely like and admire Palin. I hope she and her book do well. She is no great thinker but she inspires the best efforts of many intelligent people.... However, I'm leery of this whole sacerdotal leader thing. When the temperature within the tent reaches a certain degree, I don't want the door guardians telling me my discomfort is a religious experience.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07837540030934495651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-32155215501407434242009-11-15T15:53:23.408-06:002009-11-15T15:53:23.408-06:00Dear Monty's Laundry (that would be the other ...Dear Monty's Laundry (that would be the other Brazilian gay sockpuppet),<br /><br />Why do you keep on about Sarah Palin? Surely you realize the best thing for you is to ignore her and hope she'll go away?<br /><br />As for "tart," no, I don't think it gets you anywhere. Except, again, identifying you as gay (NTTAWWT). Stupid foreigner.Nichevohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591460407621898458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56899619414688956212009-11-15T15:09:19.822-06:002009-11-15T15:09:19.822-06:00Glitter and vomit... ;-)
To the extent that she i...<i>Glitter and vomit...</i> ;-)<br /><br />To the extent that she <i>is</i> capable of thinking, planning and executing something that complex, I don't doubt that a facade of sweetness and innocence overlaying a conniving tart is part of her game. <br /><br />(I apologize if "tart" seems offensive to you, but I'm at a loss for synonyms this afternoon that imply an underhanded and possibly feminine nastiness without going over the top. "Monster" seemed too generic and foreboding and had an unfortunate history in reference to Hillary Clinton that I didn't see a reason to repeat. The allusion to prostitution might apply broadly to politicians, but for Palin I really just wish to literally emphasize someone a bit sour and concentrated with too much of... well, with too much of <i>something</i> in any event). <br /><br />The problem however is that all this over-analysis of Palin and obsession with style both seem to rely on a perspective of the observer that is less and less relevant to Palin's actual political futures. <br /><br />Second, it's precisely what her more vocal (and apparently successful) detractors were saying about her all along.<br /><br />If all these incredibly detailed and literary analyses of Palin are really things that anyone finds amusing, then I suppose I just don't really relate to the idea of politics as spectacle. At least, not to the idea of politics as <i>that</i> ornate a spectacle. And if they are offered because they are thought to be useful, then once again, the memes have been out there for quite some time and now can be used to show just how far behind the eight-ball her more supportive or ambivalent observers are in objectively and accurately assessing public opinion, let alone (political) reality. Which has also become a very longstanding charge by now as well.Ritmo Re-Animatedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15912086218531198114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37164948897633302312009-11-15T12:59:51.090-06:002009-11-15T12:59:51.090-06:00Reader: I haven't pre-ordered a copy of the bo...Reader: I haven't pre-ordered a copy of the book, but, oddly enough, my wife has, so I think we'll be tugging on opposite covers when it gets here.<br /><br />My wife has an Althousian view of Palin, so I have no idea why she did this.<br /><br />We live not far from a Barnes & Noble, not to mention a really good independent bookshop, so my plan had been to wait until the damned thing was stacked floor-to-ceiling and pick it up cheap.<br /><br />Given everything else to worry about, I could very well wait a month or two for confirmation or disproof of my "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" theory.<br /><br />I am frankly much more interested in the history of color photography, getting to be a SolidWorks whiz, and/or staying employed, than the latest from the Wonder Woman of Wasilla.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90326762862699006662009-11-15T12:58:48.970-06:002009-11-15T12:58:48.970-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90944114374002061362009-11-15T12:44:31.138-06:002009-11-15T12:44:31.138-06:00Ritmo Ostinato: If you disagree with my view that ...Ritmo Ostinato: If you disagree with my view that Palin is adopting a "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" strategy, please tell us how that is wrong, or that she is not doing it.<br /><br />Palin is attempting, in my opinion, to map her actions onto the template of that story, and I laid out my reasoning in my post. If you disagree with the substance, please give us an argument, not more glitter and vomit.<br /><br />Althouse seems to object to Palin's Machiavellian <i>style,</i> assuming that Palin does in fact have a deeper plan, which I believe she does. I think that Palin's refusal to comport with Althouse's notions of behavior needed to demonstrate her subtlety is supremely irrelevant.<br /><br />My point was that there is an old tradition to proclaim one's innocence and noble simplicity on one hand, and act quite ruthlessly on the other. That is the essence of Machiavellianism, and style matters not at all, so long as it's effective with the intended public.<br /><br />Althouse says,<br /><br />"A <i>first-rate</i> Machiavellian bitch wouldn't say that in exactly those words. But she <i>would say that.</i> Elegantly, seductively — like a real Machiavellian. And <i>I</i> would be inspired: <i>There is someone smart and sophisticated enough to deserve a major party nomination for President. I want that Machiavellian bitch on our side."</i><br /><br />I agree completely with the last two sentences, but not at all with the need for elegance or imspiration of the bicoastal and academic <i>haut bourgeoisie,</i> who are not the intended public nor likely to vote for Palin no matter what she says.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1697484729228675222009-11-15T12:26:53.311-06:002009-11-15T12:26:53.311-06:00Oh, screw you, blogger. You just erased my effing...Oh, screw you, blogger. You just erased my effing post.<br /><br />Shorter repost: AL, please explain why Palin's point about her experience dealing with Russia and Canada was not relevant. <br /><br />I invoked W's retort to Gibson ('never mind Musharraf, shall I name the foreign minister of Mexico? Can you?') by way of reflecting that border states, and by extension their governors, do indeed have foreign involvement which is relevant to their qualifications. <br /><br />I am quite sure that Palin, pre-election, had met more and more significant Canadians and Russians than Obama had, and had achieved and benefited more from the experience.<br /><br />Why is this mockable in the eyes of someone with such pretensions of insight as yourself? Boob-bait for suckers. Are you the sucker or the boob?Nichevohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591460407621898458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-54339014163415669172009-11-15T12:07:41.139-06:002009-11-15T12:07:41.139-06:00I followed the link in the Professor's post, s...I followed the link in the Professor's post, saw that it was a <i>New York Times</i> review, and I'm afraid that the Professor dropped a couple notches in my esteem (as if she cares!). Did she (Althouse) seriously expect the <i>NYT</i>, of all the official organs of the left-wing lunatic fringe, to offer up a dispassionate review of a book written by the person second only to Rush Limbaugh in the degree of left-wing hatred?<br /><br />I'm perfectly prepared to believe that a politician inexperienced at the national level would be overly trusting of McCain's campaign staff -- but keep in mind that this was his <i>third</i> staff of the campaign and correspondingly unlikely to be composed of members of the A Team.<br /><br />The person who's getting a bit of free ride in all this is John McCain. He is supposed to have personally approved of her as his number two -- if he let himself get talked into picking her despite qualms or without a serious vetting then that says even more about his lack of leadership than his poor performance in the economic crisis. If McCain assumed that women would come flocking to vote for him because he picked a woman VP candidate then he really knows nothing about women, does he?<br /><br />McCain does, of course, know something about women -- he's married to a blonde, busty, beer heiress. I'll be a little jealous to my dying day. (Which, with Obamacare, probably will come sooner rather than later.)Big Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831645119853118904noreply@blogger.com