tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post4417522004756887890..comments2024-03-28T04:42:46.147-05:00Comments on Althouse: "Government isn't an all-purpose social-utility machine just waiting to help us make better decisions..."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger191125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-53469321874337560422013-02-26T20:46:40.281-06:002013-02-26T20:46:40.281-06:00You have no medical training, that is very evident...<i>You have no medical training, that is very evident.</i><br /><br />"Sentience" isn't a medical term, sweetie. It is a philosophical term. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-33126056437708854622013-02-26T17:28:13.588-06:002013-02-26T17:28:13.588-06:00Neither does he have any capacity to accept, let a...Neither does he have any capacity to accept, let alone learn, some very basic medical concepts. Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Togetherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02059991118123693141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19160724845701000672013-02-26T12:54:21.723-06:002013-02-26T12:54:21.723-06:00 Revenant,
You have no medical training, that is ... Revenant, <br />You have no medical training, that is very evident. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22539010455621816532013-02-26T12:37:09.298-06:002013-02-26T12:37:09.298-06:00Inga, sweetie, "consciousness" and "...Inga, sweetie, "consciousness" and "sentience" are synonyms. Do consult a dictionary from time to time; it'll save you embarrassment. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70136376823412543262013-02-26T11:23:46.994-06:002013-02-26T11:23:46.994-06:00Ritmo does make a strong arguement for abortion, t...Ritmo does make a strong arguement for abortion, through his existence. <br /><br />What worthless miserable creatures inhabit the fevered swamps of the left.<br />President-Mom-Jeanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02787201862556497671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-30291532619317452652013-02-26T08:29:38.334-06:002013-02-26T08:29:38.334-06:00Some imagine themselves above the fray, they are n...Some imagine themselves above the fray, they are not. Revenant was being used to prove a point, he just didn't realize it. Consciousness and sentience are not one in the same, anyone with any medical knowledge knows this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-30874765634673393392013-02-26T08:25:42.099-06:002013-02-26T08:25:42.099-06:00Revenant, you give yourself too much credit.Revenant, you give yourself too much credit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-51679200953054081002013-02-26T03:54:36.073-06:002013-02-26T03:54:36.073-06:00Can we please just ignore the MULish Ritmo for onc...<i>Can we please just ignore the MULish Ritmo for once?</i><br /><br />Sorry. Normally I do ignore him, but occasionally a mean part of me likes to toy with him for my own amusement.<br /><br />Mostly because it so obviously annoys him that he can't make me angry. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-33135265781310022882013-02-26T03:54:04.683-06:002013-02-26T03:54:04.683-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-42489914731058574202013-02-26T02:32:01.717-06:002013-02-26T02:32:01.717-06:00Can we please just ignore the MULish Ritmo for onc...Can we <i>please</i> just ignore the MULish Ritmo for once? This discussion was actually interesting before s/h/it arrived.<br />Kirk Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05921711310191924997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-72855061896365318512013-02-26T00:40:09.478-06:002013-02-26T00:40:09.478-06:00It should be obvious, really, that a person's ...<i>It should be obvious, really, that a person's trust of others is inversely proportional to his desire to pass laws telling those other people what to do.</i><br /><br />What is obvious, is that self-styled libertarians (glibertarians, really) don't care to do anything about the costs burdened by a society that doesn't refuse emergency care while refusing to require a personal sacrifice for receiving it no questions asked.<br /><br />They just leave it to others to not only solve, but argue for responsibly solving that problem.<br /><br />Libertarians like to leave social messes for others to solve. Again, they don't believe in society. And apparently, they don't believe in responsibility, either.<br /><br />Unless you're like Ron Paul's supporters, who believe that the responsible thing for an uninsured person to do is to die. <br /><br />They call you guys glibertarians for a reason. They're just socially irresponsible. And then tell you that they love and trust society.<br /><br />What a bunch of self-serving, glibertarian bullshit.Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Togetherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02059991118123693141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-39375839132358770592013-02-26T00:35:47.459-06:002013-02-26T00:35:47.459-06:00"Experiencing sensation or feeling."
Co...<i>"Experiencing sensation or feeling."</i><br /><br />Consciousness not required. <br /><br />Even when people dream, experiencing something much more complex than mere perceptions, we don't call this "consciousness". <br /><br />Sensations or feelings are perceptions, and therefore a part of sentience. (Note the root of sentient: same as "sensation" - related to "feeling"). <br /><br /><i>"As with your idiotically obstinant refusal to even agree that zygotes are not persons in any sense"<br /><br />I agreed that it is reasonable to think they aren't people but rejected your ignorant assertion that science can prove as much.</i> <br /><br />Not ignorant. Humans are considered multicellular organisms - zygotes are unicellular. You do not grasp that this is an elementary distinction in biology. A unicellular person would be an extremely foreign thing in the world of human life. The zygote is but a transition stage.<br /><br /><i>I'm sorry that you can't emotionally handle the idea that not all reasonable beliefs are demonstrably true. :)</i><br /><br />I'm not sorry that you can't emotionally handle the fact that some beliefs are much more reasonable and much more likely than others.<br /><br /><i>"you cannot agree that "pain" and "pleasure" are neurological stimuli or perceptions that are distinct from whichever generic stimuli"<br /><br />The "pleasure" and "pain" requirements for sentience were invented by you. You've got it backwards; an organism must be conscious in order to experience sensation subjectively, pleasure and pain being two examples of subjective sensations.</i> <br /><br />Not true. Sensations are not only ONE definition of sentience, they're required for the attribute of consciousness that you selectively choose to define as the only meaning for sentience. Reflexes are consciousness-independent. They often don't even travel to the brain, but terminate in a loop that leads to muscular response much earlier.<br /><br />Perceptions/sensations precede any cognitive/conscious evaluation of them. You are mistaking the philosophical speculation that used to comprise neurology with what empiric neurological evidence has actually shown for the last hundred years or so, at least. <br /><br /><i>We know that babies make an unpleasant noise when something bad happens, but so does my computer. Stimulus-response is necessary but insufficient.</i><br /><br />This is not a coherent response to anything. But at least you got to compare a baby to a computer. Which, I suppose, must come natural to an automaton such as yourself. <br /><br /><i>"What stimulus does a zygote respond to"<br /><br />The cleavage process appears to depend on environmental stimuli indicating the host is receptive to pregnancy.</i><br /><br />You say "appears" so I'll assume you neglected to check your facts on this one, as well. <br /><br />But whether this "stimulus" registers in any way that could be neurological is anyone's guess. (Doesn't seem likely as neural tissue doesn't exist yet). <br /><br />But then, you are the one who doesn't seem to have a grasp on the importance of neurology in defining human traits, let alone that the nervous system is the system assigned to <i>sentiently</i> perceive stimuli that we can associate with cruelty (pain) or decency (pleasure), so who knows where you're coming from with an anecdote as far-fetched as this one?<br /><br /><i>Anyway, as enjoyable as it has been to poke at you, I actually do have other things to get to this evening. I'll let you have the last word.</i><br /><br />I don't doubt that you consider your poking comments a form of intellectual rape. <br /><br />Luckily, I'm able to perceive the intellectual impotence on your part that overwhelms them. Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Togetherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02059991118123693141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-29899930617560235142013-02-26T00:05:12.661-06:002013-02-26T00:05:12.661-06:00Ok, one last response. :)
Libertarians don't ...Ok, one last response. :)<br /><br /><i>Libertarians don't trust society, or anyone else.</i><br /><br />Libertarians, among those people who believe governments should exist at all, are actually the most trusting of society and other people. Pretty much everyone else thinks you need large numbers of police and bureaucrats making sure everybody does what they're supposed to, whether that's "buy insurance" or "put their kids in car seats" or "respect the flag" or "abstain from drugs" or etc, etc, etc. <br /><br />It should be obvious, really, that a person's trust of others is inversely proportional to his desire to pass laws telling those other people what to do. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86793035740876247842013-02-25T23:55:01.560-06:002013-02-25T23:55:01.560-06:00Quote your definition
Sentient
Part of Speech: ad...<i>Quote your definition</i><br /><br />Sentient<br />Part of Speech: adjective<br />Definition: conscious <br /><br />From thesaurus.com :)<br /><br />Of course, that opens up the "but what IS consciousness" can of worms, but I covered that already.<br /><br /><i>As with your idiotically obstinant refusal to even agree that zygotes are not persons in any sense</i><br /><br />I agreed that it is reasonable to think they aren't people but rejected your ignorant assertion that science can prove as much. I'm sorry that you can't emotionally handle the idea that not all reasonable beliefs are demonstrably true. :)<br /><br /><i>you cannot agree that "pain" and "pleasure" are neurological stimuli or perceptions that are distinct from whichever generic stimuli</i><br /><br />The "pleasure" and "pain" requirements for sentience were invented by you. You've got it backwards; an organism must be conscious in order to experience sensation subjectively, pleasure and pain being two examples of subjective sensations. We know that babies make an unpleasant noise when something bad happens, but so does my computer. Stimulus-response is necessary but insufficient.<br /><br /><i>What stimulus does a zygote respond to</i><br /><br />The cleavage process appears to depend on environmental stimuli indicating the host is receptive to pregnancy.<br /><br />Anyway, as enjoyable as it has been to poke at you, I actually do have other things to get to this evening. I'll let you have the last word.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-23737835618443530992013-02-25T23:37:56.953-06:002013-02-25T23:37:56.953-06:00IN other words, you answer your own question witho...IN other words, you answer your own question without realizing it. Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Togetherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02059991118123693141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4024471721245540032013-02-25T23:37:35.113-06:002013-02-25T23:37:35.113-06:00Can a butterfly come into being without passing th...<i>Can a butterfly come into being without passing through the stages of egg, larva and pupa?</i><br /><br />The butterfly is none of those things in the same way that a person is not a zygote. Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Togetherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02059991118123693141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-34058303654051166742013-02-25T23:33:19.233-06:002013-02-25T23:33:19.233-06:00Ritmo: All should be permitted, because one life a...<i>Ritmo: All should be permitted, because one life actually exists whereas another is more-or-less theoretical. How theoretical is something that we can debate, but one actually, unequivocally exists.</i><br /><br /><br />Why theoretical? Can a butterfly come into being without passing through the stages of egg, larva and pupa?<br />Ninihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04666187128181597264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-81287599991770205192013-02-25T23:20:00.310-06:002013-02-25T23:20:00.310-06:00"I also don’t think that libertarians don’t t...<i>"I also don’t think that libertarians don’t trust the government."<br /><br />I think the government has a long way to go before the libertarian attitude towards government *improves* to the point where we simply don't trust it very much. :)</i><br /><br />Libertarians don't trust <i>society</i>, or anyone else. So their distrust of even a democratically elected, representative self-government is axiomatic. <br /><br />That is their dilemma. They hate society and seek to mask that with a hatred of the "self-government" that represents it. <br /><br />Who could afford to be anything but slippery, opaque and vague about what they actually want when this is the psychological motivation behind their pretension to a political philosophy?Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Togetherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02059991118123693141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19397522519789946222013-02-25T23:09:05.874-06:002013-02-25T23:09:05.874-06:00So I do not know if the question of trust in the g...<i>So I do not know if the question of trust in the government is a meaningful question at all in a democracy, if we agree that the government is “we the people”.</i><br /><br />We don't, and it isn't. This is a constitutional republic governing a union of states; it is not a democracy, nor was it ever meant to be. <br /><br />Democracy is a fairly good way of ensuring that 50% of the public enjoys the protection of the law and sees its rights and wishes respected. Getting beyond 50% requires putting measures in place that will thwart the majority when it tries -- and it always does -- to oppress the minority.<br /><br /><i>I also don’t think that libertarians don’t trust the government.</i><br /><br />I think the government has a long way to go before the libertarian attitude towards government *improves* to the point where we simply don't trust it very much. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-26808641314292389242013-02-25T23:08:29.211-06:002013-02-25T23:08:29.211-06:00The definition of sentience includes, and requires...<i>The definition of sentience includes, and requires, consciousness. Humans aren't provably conscious unless we are able to demonstrate it through communication.</i><br /><br />Bullshit.<br /><br />Quote your definition (if you can stand to; evidence has a way of eluding you) and I'll quote one that negates it.<br /><br />You are arguing in bad faith at this point. No intelligent person can directly contradict available evidence (definitions, even!) and mean what they say.<br /><br /><i>Ironically, the incredibly broad definition of "sentience" you're trying to use here would cover the entirety of human development from zygote to birth; even single cells can respond to stimulus. :)</i><br /><br />As with your idiotically obstinant refusal to even agree that zygotes are not persons in any sense in which we would seek to attach rights, you cannot agree that "pain" and "pleasure" are neurological stimuli or perceptions that are distinct from whichever generic stimuli, or specific stimulus, that you can prove to me that a zygote can be evoked to respond to. Can you even do that? You asserted it without any reference to evidence. One assumes you made it up. <br /><br />What stimulus does a zygote respond to, O Guru of the Paultards?Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Togetherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02059991118123693141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-27308572699285344832013-02-25T23:01:46.191-06:002013-02-25T23:01:46.191-06:00I find it ironic that after your stubborn insisten...<i>I find it ironic that after your stubborn insistence that a cell doesn't clearly count as a living thing you've turned around and based your argument on a concept as ill-defined and unmeasurable as "sentience".</i><br /><br />It's not a person. And it's you who's providing cover to people who use "living" as code for "a living person with rights". <br /><br />Sentience is a pretty important concept when it comes to rights, and the relevant one here. We use it when it comes to end of life issues all the time - the only concretely realistic analogy you actually had the presence of mind (but not sentience? can we be sure of that?) to entertain.<br /><br /><i>I do love your inability to distinguish between "Ritmo, your argument is flawed" and "Ritmo, your conclusion is wrong". Women have the right to have abortions. It just isn't found in the silly-assed arguments you're using. :)</i><br /><br />It sure as hell isn't found in whatever you are (or would be) arguing. Slippery disbeliever in evidence for sentience that you are, you still can't seem to bring yourself to agreeing that zygotes aren't people with rights. So who cares what positive arguments you have for a right to abortion? Every angle discussed that anyone could find reasonable agreement on, you've slithered your way around and avoided staking a clear position on. <br /><br />Don't bother making a clear position, or even what you would consider a basis for one. It's quite evident that you see your strength in not having one.<br /><br />And people wonder why your political clique can't find votes. Fascinating.<br /><br />Good luck on your search for a perfect argument. Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Togetherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02059991118123693141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88739047500201468362013-02-25T22:56:24.907-06:002013-02-25T22:56:24.907-06:00The definition of sentience also involves instinct...<i>The definition of sentience also involves instinctual responses</i><br /><br />The definition of sentience includes, and requires, consciousness. Humans aren't provably conscious unless we are able to demonstrate it through communication.<br /><br />Ironically, the incredibly broad definition of "sentience" you're trying to use here would cover the entirety of human development from zygote to birth; even single cells can respond to stimulus. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78253853825552696412013-02-25T22:45:31.169-06:002013-02-25T22:45:31.169-06:00Those who do not have a desire to be controlled wo...Those who do not have a desire to be controlled would enjoy the Samizdata blog.kentuckylizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08110491371985845560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-81484150583344907532013-02-25T22:44:37.628-06:002013-02-25T22:44:37.628-06:00Sure, government is not a decision-maker run by au...Sure, government is not a decision-maker run by automation because the government is “we the people”. <br /><br />It is this principle of the government being “we the people” that the decisions for the country are made. How does this work? In 2 ways. In a representative democracy which is what most countries in the west are, we elect our politicians who we think will serve our own best interest. And in a direct democracy, Switzerland being the only country I know that is a direct democracy, people vote on policy initiatives by way of referendum or petition to the legislature. With the advances in technology you will wonder why more countries are not direct democracies, afterall direct democracies will mean leaner government . The common reason cited by those who have dislike for direct democracy is that the majority can oppress the minority: that there is a danger that the majorities will force their will on minorities. <br /><br />Lord Acton , a British historian, writer and politician said in the late 19th century "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." So true, so we see a system of check and balance in the political system in the form of 3 separate entities the Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary.<br /><br />So I do not know if the question of trust in the government is a meaningful question at all in a democracy, if we agree that the government is “we the people”. Sure, being skeptical of the intentions of the people in the government is expected but once scepticism becomes a factual claim there is a way to address it, in democracy, it’s through the ballots. Remove the people you do not like.<br /><br />I don’t know that libertarians think that they can have full autonomy from any regulating or governing body because if they can, then that would be anarchy. I don’t know that they or we want to live where there is social disorder. And I also don’t think that libertarians don’t trust the government. I think the libertarians believe that liberty is the highest political end which can be achieved through a limited central government with clear boundaries regarding its functions and it’s power dispersed by the workings of the state governments.<br /><br />For instance I would think that libertarians would favour the decision on same sex marriage issue be decided directly by the people, like Proposition 8 referendum in California but I also think that gay libertarians would have a free-wheeling attitude in regard to relationships – they may not care about formalities from the government.<br /><br />I think fascism results not so much about how much the citizens trust their government, (afterall all political bodies need the trust of the people to do its job) but more about extreme nationalism combined with a charismatic, authoritarian leader governing a central body which is not subject to check and balance.Ninihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04666187128181597264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-26588541597718958752013-02-25T22:40:31.944-06:002013-02-25T22:40:31.944-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ninihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04666187128181597264noreply@blogger.com