tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post3361894055425183109..comments2024-03-19T08:18:14.544-05:00Comments on Althouse: "Attorney General Eric Holder said Wednesday the Guantanamo detention center is a well-run, professional facility that will be difficult to close..."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-31415935054100426992009-02-27T11:19:00.000-06:002009-02-27T11:19:00.000-06:00Conquer, secure. Eh, same thing. To conquer impl...Conquer, secure. Eh, same thing. To conquer implies control, which requires security. If all we wanted to do is destroy it, then our army was plenty big enough. But people aren't scalable the way weapons systems are. You can use a bigger, more accurate bomb to destroy a bridge, thus requiring few people or planes. But the population cannot be handled the same way. Then it's the same as in the days of Darius, Xerxes, Rome, and forever in history. Controlling people is intensely personal and takes a lot of people being physically present, not in a teleconference room in Florida.Skylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10574746114813075566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-77890619698489720862009-02-27T10:38:00.000-06:002009-02-27T10:38:00.000-06:00Sjyler said in part... and half the troops used to...<I>Sjyler said in part... and half the troops used to oust Iraq from Kuwait would be enough to conquer all of Iraq. Idiots</I><BR/><BR/>more precisely, that half the troops would be able to "secure" Iraq, after we sliced through their Army. The point being, any one of our troops was as effective as 10-20 Iraqi's, but one troop can be in 20 places at the same time in a security mission.The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-25035349242916754262009-02-27T09:59:00.000-06:002009-02-27T09:59:00.000-06:00AND, it's a civilian government. Amen to that. Th...<I>AND, it's a civilian government. </I><BR/><BR/>Amen to that. That's the best part of our government.<BR/><BR/>The other best parts were that we were capitalist and free. The two go together. Looks like we'll have to settle for having a civilian government now.<BR/><BR/>And if you think that invoking Cheney as a way to rattle us, I'll just tell you that Cheney is a very smart man, but a fool about military matters. He and Rumsfeld don't know anything about how to structure a military to win wars. They would rather play silly games with Gitmo and torture people than concentrate on winning the war. <BR/><BR/>The biggest weakness of a civilian run democratic nation is the attention span of the people when fighting a war. They decided that using minimal force levels was the best way to wage war. The opposite is true for us. We need to have a maximum effort, win as fast as possible no matter the cost and get it over with. They thought that two battalions and mercenaries can win in Afghanistan, and half the troops used to oust Iraq from Kuwait would be enough to conquer all of Iraq. Idiots.Skylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10574746114813075566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-21637490650822313922009-02-27T09:25:00.000-06:002009-02-27T09:25:00.000-06:00Alpha - how many years did you serve and where?I d...<I>Alpha - how many years did you serve and where?</I><BR/><BR/>I didn't serve in the military. Not that that's relevant. Many people didn't that your guys follow and worship: Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Karl Rove, etc, etc. <BR/><BR/>AND, it's a civilian government. <BR/><BR/>As to the rest of youse, you're in a dander over your precious worldview being punctured. Of course, you'll deny it as a matter of reflex, not any thinking. <BR/><BR/>IOW, "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil."AlphaLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08711124490821422066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-9728678795176910882009-02-26T20:44:00.000-06:002009-02-26T20:44:00.000-06:00JohnAnnArbor said... And it's at UC Davis, not kn...<I>JohnAnnArbor said... <BR/> And it's at UC Davis, not known for giving a fair shake to the military.</I><BR/><BR/>while I don't disagree with your conclusion, things have obviously changed.<BR/><BR/>I was commisioned at UCD in 74, and at that point, it was the most pro-military of the UC campuses. all those Aggies of course. Not that any of them were pro-military, but it's relative.The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-69690212799281883282009-02-26T20:29:00.000-06:002009-02-26T20:29:00.000-06:00Two in the chest and one in the head. That prevent...<I>Two in the chest and one in the head. That prevents repeat offenders.</I><BR/><BR/>That's what's called winning hearts and minds. Two in the heart, one in the mind.Skylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10574746114813075566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-55567099125872209522009-02-26T20:28:00.000-06:002009-02-26T20:28:00.000-06:00Drill - thanks for your service, and Mrs. Drill as...Drill - thanks for your service, and Mrs. Drill as well.Michael Hazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14139261384414481528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-6371867421277147482009-02-26T19:57:00.000-06:002009-02-26T19:57:00.000-06:00AlphaLiberal said... You're a regular keyboard war...<I>AlphaLiberal said... <BR/><BR/>You're a regular keyboard warrior.</I><BR/><BR/>Just the honest truth AL.<BR/><BR/><I>Alex said... <BR/>Alpha - how many years did you serve and where?</I><BR/><BR/>as for me, I was a Private, a Sergeant in Combat, a Drill Sgt in wartime, an officer in Command in peacetime, a reservist officer in war time, and my wife serves today in the Guard. 19 years total. 12 active and 7 reserve good years.<BR/><BR/>she has 3 active and 23 good years reserve.<BR/><BR/>shove it, AL.<BR/><BR/>I've been there, and got the tee shirt to prove it.The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-40501247061507641312009-02-26T19:55:00.000-06:002009-02-26T19:55:00.000-06:00AL, those stories are too perfect. What I mean is...AL, those stories are too perfect. What I mean is, it's what you guys WANT to believe, but it makes no practical sense or any other kind of sense. And it's at UC Davis, not known for giving a fair shake to the military. So, again, not believable. I saw a similar story recently by a supposed former veteran saying he slammed some elderly guy's face to the ground on command at Gitmo. The whole story was way too perfect and made no practical sense, and came from another anti-war group. But, of course, the reporter asked no questions and did no checking elsewhere, because, again, only the Israeli and American governments are questioned. Any charge against them is proven merely by being spoken, as far as people like you think.<BR/><BR/>Look, you want to believe we like to fly innocent guys thousands of miles and hold them for years to stomp on them for kicks, go ahead. People who actually think things through instead of relying on high-minded feelings know that the reality is--shall we say--more nuanced.JohnAnnArborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11440105287714668965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22581839458067015542009-02-26T19:45:00.000-06:002009-02-26T19:45:00.000-06:00Alpha - how many years did you serve and where?Alpha - how many years did you serve and where?Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205752419540502278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-10511667661210635622009-02-26T19:44:00.000-06:002009-02-26T19:44:00.000-06:00Alpha - just more proof of the American Auschwitz....Alpha - just more proof of the American Auschwitz. We need a Nuremberg trials 2.0 for Bush & Co.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205752419540502278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-35835563477301912502009-02-26T19:42:00.000-06:002009-02-26T19:42:00.000-06:00More tough guys. Here is an interview with a forme...More tough guys. <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://humanrights.ucdavis.edu/projects/the-guantanamo-testimonials-project/testimonies/testimonies-of-military-guards/testimony-of-brandon-neely" REL="nofollow">Here is an interview with a former guard from Gitmo</A>:<BR/><BR/><I>All I can say to this question is I am sure a lot really has changed in the way the day-to-day activities take place. Especially with regards to IRFing. But at Camp X-Ray, especially before ICRC (or International Committee of the Red Cross) arrived, I heard many times the IRF team being told (and telling each other before they went to get a detainee) that it was their time to "get some," which is to say inflict pain, get revenge. But we were instructed that the Number 1 Man on the IRF team was to hit the detainees as hard as possible.</I>AlphaLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08711124490821422066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-20206840251886261762009-02-26T19:39:00.000-06:002009-02-26T19:39:00.000-06:00Two in the chest and one in the head. That prevent...<I>Two in the chest and one in the head. That prevents repeat offenders.</I><BR/><BR/>You're a regular keyboard warrior.AlphaLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08711124490821422066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-27714009412671857592009-02-26T19:16:00.000-06:002009-02-26T19:16:00.000-06:00TreeJoe said... John and BigMike -I don't think ma...<I>TreeJoe said... <BR/>John and BigMike -<BR/><BR/>I don't think many people advocating for Constitutional rights for foreign detainees realize the consequences of their actions.</I><BR/><BR/>short answer?<BR/><BR/>SGT's everywhere are telling their troops not to try to take prisoners unless the Old Man insists.<BR/><BR/>Not that they won't accept surrenders. But don't try hard to encourage prisoners.<BR/><BR/>Taking prisoners is inherently dangerous. Who needs the risk if the Jihadi's ultimately wil be released say the SGT's.<BR/><BR/>Two in the chest and one in the head. That prevents repeat offenders.The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-25809824016448131432009-02-26T19:10:00.000-06:002009-02-26T19:10:00.000-06:00Hector Owen...Thanks for all of the new links at t...Hector Owen...<BR/><BR/>Thanks for all of the new links at the link you left...<BR/><BR/><I>This</I>- has been pinging around in my head for <I>weeks</I> now-<BR/><BR/><I>"From enthusiasm to imposture the step is perilous and slippery; the demon of Socrates affords a memorable instance how a wise man may deceive himself, how a good man may deceive others, how the conscience may slumber in a mixed and middle state between self-illusion and voluntary fraud." </I><BR/><BR/>[The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.-Edward Gibbon]<BR/><BR/>Also ironic-I was going to start a comment on another thread-which started-<BR/> <BR/>"If I were writing science fiction, but I'm <I>not</I>..."Chennaul https://www.blogger.com/profile/09259086579871139667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-71229796425767402782009-02-26T18:54:00.000-06:002009-02-26T18:54:00.000-06:00AlphaLiberal: "so you think people have been relea...AlphaLiberal: "so you think people have been released because they're <I>guilty</I>?"<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/23/mideast/detainee.1-414168.php" REL="nofollow">Guantánamo detainee resurfaces in terrorist group</A><BR/><BR/><I>BEIRUT: The emergence of a former Guantánamo Bay detainee as the deputy leader of Al Qaeda's Yemeni branch has underscored the potential complications in carrying out the executive order that President Barack Obama signed that the detention center be shut down within a year.</I><BR/><BR/>Read the whole thing, as they say.<BR/><BR/>That's just the most recent story I could find after a simple Google search. There is of course this as well:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_released_Guantanamo_prisoners_who_allegedly_returned_to_battle" REL="nofollow">Lists of released Guantanamo prisoners who allegedly returned to battle</A><BR/><BR/>Read some of the linked bios. Fascinating stuff about those innocents released back into the wild.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12258486225193805658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-46900141792774716442009-02-26T18:48:00.000-06:002009-02-26T18:48:00.000-06:00Bliss, you don't understand. It's on a website, s...Bliss, you don't understand. It's on a website, so it must be true. It's anti-American, therefore it's true. <BR/><BR/>Never mind that there's a war going on.<BR/><BR/>If any of the people held in Gitmo or other places are innocent, well, c'est le guerre. (I don't speak frog, so apologies for misspellings). Next time, people should be a bit more enthusiastic in denouncing our enemies and supporting us.Skylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10574746114813075566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-9045143305940591872009-02-26T18:04:00.000-06:002009-02-26T18:04:00.000-06:00AlphaLiberal-The first link you provide claims tha...AlphaLiberal-<BR/><BR/>The first link you provide claims that the 5 people involved were not enemy combatants, but it gives no source for that claim.<BR/><BR/>The second link discusses 82 inmates, and claims their innocence, but provides no source except a Washington Post story that does not proclaim their innocence, and in fact says ( at least for some of them ) that "military officials made a point of noting that they had not been exonerated and were still classified as enemy combatants"<BR/><BR/>These articles seem to confuse 'cleared for release' with 'innocent'. In fact, people cleared for release may have been guilty of something, but not something serious enough to warrent holding them longer.<BR/><BR/>Note that I'm not saying that I have proof that they are guilty. And I'm sure that many innocent people were picked up, and probably a few of them ended up a Gitmo. But the links you are providing in no way prove that.Ignorance is Blisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17351664545145783244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-38763974687042198972009-02-26T17:52:00.000-06:002009-02-26T17:52:00.000-06:00It's symbolic of our struggle against the Romans.....It's symbolic of our struggle against the Romans....<BR/><BR/>So, let's see the left yells that Gitmo is a gulag, a torture camp, an American Auschwitz, and now when that turns out not to be true, they demand that it be closed anyway because, well, it has a bad reputation.<BR/><BR/>Does it seem to anyone else like ceding this point is a really bad idea?blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05430444326700437630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-14483171471806704942009-02-26T17:24:00.000-06:002009-02-26T17:24:00.000-06:00Thanks, madawaskan. Your 11:30 AM comment reminded...Thanks, madawaskan. Your 11:30 AM comment <A HREF="http://hectorowen.blogspot.com/2009/02/mundus-vult-decipi.html" REL="nofollow">reminded me</A> of James Branch Cabell and Joni Mitchell, both in the same thought.Hector Owenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09464231766299961050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-53628453160348093012009-02-26T16:14:00.000-06:002009-02-26T16:14:00.000-06:00John said..."Bazelon needs to go on What Not to We...John said...<BR/>"<I>Bazelon needs to go on What Not to Wear. She looks like my hippie fourth grade teacher from 1980.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Why is it that in the mine run of cases, people go on that show looking perfectly alright and the idiots on the show dress them up in all manner of gaudy, tacky rubbish that the people look like they can't wait to get out of? Wouldn't the show be better if the victims actually dressed badly or inappropriately for their build/age/etc., and were shown how to do so?Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-74299934370027447892009-02-26T15:52:00.000-06:002009-02-26T15:52:00.000-06:00AlphaLiberal said... Various people ask how I know...<I>AlphaLiberal said... <BR/>Various people ask how I know innocent people are held at Gitmo.</I><BR/><BR/>In the Muslims own minds, they are all innocent. They are all engaged in a fight sanctioned by holiest scripture and assuring they will go to Paradise. <BR/>Our laws are not accepted. Their laws say they are innocent.<BR/><BR/>To further complicate things for the Left, in constructing their Narrative of the "innocents of war" best sorted out at multimillion dollar civilian trials, they ignore almost everyone else is INNOCENT. <BR/><BR/>If you disagree, pls explain the guilt of a jihadi drafted in a Mosque who is told the choice is fighting or being branded a coward. Or uniform soldiers conscripted against their will in this or past wars.<BR/><BR/>Is someone who volunteers to serve in the American Armed Forces GUILTY while all Vietnam era draftees automatically INNOCENT?<BR/><BR/>Or what about the tens of thousands of civilian laborers of the Germans and Italians that were captured while working with their military in N Africa, Italy and susequently held in POW camps. Or people considered dangerous enemy aliens caught behind war lines and interned?<BR/><BR/>And as "big points" go, let us not forget the very nature of war is that most civilian law is circumvented. In the Gulf War, I didn't pull a trigger, but helped kill a couple dozen men, almost all "innocent" draftees - without trial. War means destroying property without compensation, wrecking or even ending the "lifestyle" of enemy civilians without recourse to their Mighty courts and Lawyers dressed in robes to file torts about the tank shell that gutted their home..<BR/><BR/>The whole Lefty Innocent vs. Guilty narrative breaks down.<BR/><BR/>Lets add that:<BR/><BR/>1. We in the West let 99.8% pf those held in POW or internment camps go at wars end because they committed no war crime.<BR/><BR/>2. GUILT of crime implies universiality across most legal systems for major "felonies". We do not do that in war, and what a war crime is as lodged against our own side - is always selective, victor's justice. We have a word for a team of men that flouts Geneva, engages the enemy by spying, blowing up trains inc. civilians or a passenger ferry full of "innocent people" carrying heavy water for Nazi nuclear research.<BR/>That word is hero.<BR/>All while we conceded that such people, our heroes, if caught, could be legitimately executed by the enemy.<BR/><BR/>3. Trying a single terrorist can cost between 30-50 million. Even when the Jihadi's activities are here, not on a battlefield and all lawyer niceities like a chain of custody is maintained. Lefties cite Moussaoui as "proof" it can be done. His trial cost 32 million. That is more than the death benefit amount the relatives of 90 fallen US soldiers get put together. It is three times the amount it would have taken to fix up Walter Reed in the same period as no funding existed for that, but tons of money to fly lawyers to France and the UK to investigate poor Moussaoui's family upbringing.<BR/>On top of the official cost, it was higher because it diverted 40 DOJ, Homeland security, FBI people away from counterterror activities to prepare the 32 boxes of vetted, revetted case documents and witness testimony for a flaming asshole screaming how he hated America and wished he could have killed plenty of his enemy, in court...<BR/><BR/>[For 6 years, the Left went wild with "terrorist rights", "rule of law", "being questioned by a female is clearly torture", "GITMO is a SYMBOL of Nazi America" and similar nonsense. <BR/>Now they have to live with the consequences. The enemy still exists, and seeks to kill in Big Blue Cities and Big Blue States.<BR/>A Republican wag said in the new age of Obama, the Dems could give as many "sacred civilian habeas" rights as they want, even allow them in the name of "precious enemy rights" to get a few nuke bombs. Because other than US soldiers who DEms would be blamed for helping to kill if any of their "innocents" make it back to battle, any WMD attack here is an effective Democrat reduction weapon.]Cedarfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00602418702398818596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19006191015768518212009-02-26T15:20:00.000-06:002009-02-26T15:20:00.000-06:00The fact that guys released from Gitmo ended up do...The fact that guys released from Gitmo ended up doing the terrorist thing again does not imply that those released are all--or even mostly--innocents. At best, they're guys who were captured and held in fast-moving operations where your precious CSI/evidence crap runs into something I call "reality." So there was no good evidence gathered for each capturee because--listen carefully here--<I>they were captured in a freakin' war zone</I>. The soldiers had better things to do--like staying alive--than dust for fingerprints or figure out precisely who shot who. Then, the bad guys end up prisoners, the press starts whining about "rights," and we end up with the idiotic situation of pretending Afghanistan is a big crime scene that can be roped off as needed to figure out exactly what happened with precise FBI investigations.<BR/><BR/>In WWII, such combatants were shot, either immediately or after a brief proceeding in the field to acertain that they were an out-of-uniform fighter and therefore there life was forfeit. We are amazingly nice now, because of people like you, AL. Releasing them to kill again, because of people like you, AL.<BR/><BR/>And all we get for it is comparisons to Nazi Germany. From people like you, AL.JohnAnnArborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11440105287714668965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-6563714136618582732009-02-26T15:13:00.000-06:002009-02-26T15:13:00.000-06:00@holdfast, don't get me started on Woodrow Wilson....@holdfast, don't get me started on Woodrow Wilson. His administration imposed racial segregation on Washington, DC, and he segregated the Civil Service. His most notorious comment on segregation is that it was "not a humiliation but a benefit and should be regarded as such" by black people.<BR/><BR/>He ran for reelection on the slogan "He Kept Us Out of War" and immediately (well, 6 months) after his reelection he pushed the US into World War I and pushed through the Espionage Act and later the Sedition Act to shut down anti-war speech and publications -- the clearest violation of 1st Amendment rights since John Adams was president.<BR/><BR/>@Alpha, I do not believe that the people released are necessarily innocent -- merely the military doesn't have enough hard evidence to try them. In a place like Afghanistan, where everybody has an AK-47 handy, and maybe two or three to spare, separating those who use them to shoot Americans from those who use them to celebrate weddings has to be pretty hard. I don't expect anybody to get it 100% right. My difference with you is that you think they got it well over 50% wrong (from your use of the word "majority"). I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that point but without a handy-dandy mind reader we cannot possibly know. What I do know is that the US military in the 21st century is very professional and very well-trained. They don't screw up nearly as often as you would like to imagine. Afghanistan and Iraq are <B>not</B> Viet Nam, where soldiers had maybe 16 weeks of training before being sent out into the field to get shot at.Big Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831645119853118904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28635432318764555402009-02-26T14:56:00.000-06:002009-02-26T14:56:00.000-06:00AL wrote:And, again, these aren't POWs. There are ...AL wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>And, again, these aren't POWs. There are many people there, perhaps a majority, who were just swept up into the system, not from a battlefield but from civilian society. <BR/><BR/>I don't understand why anyone defends detaining innocents, let alone subjecting them to deprivation of basic human rights such as habeas. </I><BR/><BR/>There's a huge leap between not being captured on a battlefield and being innocent. Huge leap. <BR/><BR/>Someone else postulated that the Geneva Conventions don't apply because they weren't in uniforms or state sponsored. On the contrary, the Geneva Conventions clearly say such people can be summarily executed. And it doesn't matter if they are captured in a battle or in a hotel.Skylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10574746114813075566noreply@blogger.com