tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post227914604047773339..comments2024-03-29T04:30:19.523-05:00Comments on Althouse: "We should have bombed it."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-69487227309142571952008-01-13T13:43:00.000-06:002008-01-13T13:43:00.000-06:00Gary:Thanks for a post that is not only insulting ...Gary:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for a post that is not only insulting but makes absolutely NO sense. Suggest you take a reading comprehension course - and stay on the meds.rcoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17102201338319611538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-55047030352972497782008-01-13T13:32:00.000-06:002008-01-13T13:32:00.000-06:00rcocean/C-fudd describes Shirer's book as "revisio...rcocean/C-fudd describes Shirer's book as "revisionist fantasies", not surprising. There were a number of death camps besides Auschwitz but these nitwits don't ever let the facts get in the way of their neurotic obsessions and delusions.Gary Rosenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00338791760274457388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91577440637533233122008-01-13T11:54:00.000-06:002008-01-13T11:54:00.000-06:00gharie..then i stand corrected. this was president...gharie..<BR/><BR/>then i stand corrected. this was president woowoo's first sober visit to the memorial. perhaps he will remember it this time.hdhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14573004614816464571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-23613088300352713232008-01-12T21:48:00.000-06:002008-01-12T21:48:00.000-06:00hdhouse:this is president moron's finest hour. the...hdhouse:<BR/><I>this is president moron's finest hour. the real story is that, judging by his reaction, this may well be the first time he heard about it.</I><BR/><BR/>As usual, your ignorance is showing.<BR/><BR/>Hell if you had even bothered to read the article, you would know that this is President Bush's second visit to the camp. He went earlier while he was governor of Texas.<BR/><BR/>As usual, the real story is the ugly spectacle of BDS rearing it's head.Gahriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16795449308207016641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-84530860561011163142008-01-12T21:19:00.000-06:002008-01-12T21:19:00.000-06:00This is an example of what makes current president...<I>This</I> is an example of what makes current president George W. Bush tear up.<BR/><BR/>Compare and contrast that to would-be president Hillary Clinton tear up.Beldarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13404583858244777905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56733727051550920332008-01-12T14:49:00.000-06:002008-01-12T14:49:00.000-06:00Nice to know, AL, that you figure we shouldn't hav...Nice to know, AL, that you figure we shouldn't have even tried to do anything about the concentration camps in WW2.<BR/><BR/>The arguments that it wouldn't have worked are one thing.<BR/><BR/>The argument that we shouldn't do anything if it means bombing is another.<BR/><BR/>As for Greenwald, his "logic" is suspect from the very start. The assumption that deaths to living wounded ratio carries over from US troops to Iraqis is ludicrous. <BR/><BR/>And just like that travesty published in Lancet... it's possible to just COUNT and when people prefer not to COUNT then you have to ask yourself why.Synovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01311191981918160095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-46960318989528966872008-01-12T14:29:00.000-06:002008-01-12T14:29:00.000-06:00Rev,I think you need to look at the timing issues:...Rev,<BR/><BR/>I think you need to look at the timing issues:<BR/><BR/>1. Jewish leaders ask FDR to bomb in July 44<BR/><BR/>2. It really doesn't become possible till July 44. fighter range from Italy.<BR/><BR/>3. Those strikes that were done into Poland were 300-600 plane strikes. e.g. resource intensive<BR/><BR/>4. Auschwitz apparently slows down killing in Nov.<BR/><BR/>5. the US military is pretty busy in France from June - Nov 44, we have a fantasy that we can end the war before Christmas if we make one more push. Diversions from that fantasy were not encouraged.<BR/><BR/>6. So multiple very successful large strikes might have slowed killing at Auschwitz for a few days before they stopped anyway, at the cost of prolonging the war, increased US losses, increased German civilian losses, and increased Jewish camp starvations.<BR/><BR/>Monday morning quarterbacking at best.The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36412553252268872392008-01-12T13:51:00.000-06:002008-01-12T13:51:00.000-06:00The limiting factor was not B-29 or even B24 range...<I>The limiting factor was not B-29 or even B24 range, it was fighter range.</I><BR/><BR/>Given that the article you yourself cited indicated that B-17s bombed an IG Farben complex five miles from the camp, it would appear that the complex was indeed within effective bomber range. Interestingly, the article also indicated that the military never investigated the feasibility of the bombing, although they said that they did.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52321302870269555052008-01-12T13:27:00.000-06:002008-01-12T13:27:00.000-06:00h/t Greenwaldh/t GreenwaldAlphaLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08711124490821422066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79286417312871673972008-01-12T13:26:00.000-06:002008-01-12T13:26:00.000-06:00Of course George Bush thinks first of bombing. His...Of course George Bush thinks first of bombing. His is a failed mindset that thinks extreme application of force changes a society for the better. He didn't think this decision through any better than he did the decision to invade and occupy Iraq with "Shock and Awe" (a.k.a., "terror") that led to "<A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/09/AR2008010902793.html" REL="nofollow">a massive death toll in the wake of the 2003 invasion</A>.".<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/09/AR2008010902793.html" REL="nofollow">A recent estimates says 150,000 Iraqi's have died</A> as a result of the violence following the America bombings and invasion and more from other related causes. Juan Cole nails it:<BR/><BR/><I>'There is also the question of how many Iraqis have sustained significant or crippling injuries from the same violence that has left so many dead. For US troops, the ratio is nearly 4,000 killed to nearly 10,000 severely wounded, or 2.5 times. If the same rate held true for Iraqi civilians in the war, and if it is true that 250,000 have by now been killed, it would equal 625,000 severely wounded.</I><BR/><BR/><I>One of the arguments warmongers gave for overthrowing Saddam Hussein was that his regime was responsible for the violent deaths of some 300,000 civilians between 1968 and 2003. That estimate now appears exaggerated, since the number of bodies in mass graves has not borne it out. But what is tragic is that in 4 1/2 short years, a foreign military occupation has unleashed killing on a scale achieved by the murderous Saddam Hussein regime only over decades. Bush did not kill all those people directly, of course, but he did indirectly cause them to be killed, since these are excess deaths beyond what you would have expected if there had been no invasion and occupation.</I><BR/><BR/><I>I am often struck by how clueless the American public is to the vast destruction we have wrought on Iraq and its people, directly or indirectly. It strikes me as a bitter joke that 4 million are displaced, often facing hunger and disease, and the rightwing periodicals and presidential candidates are talking about how the "surge" has "turned things around." For whom? How many orphans have we created? How many widows? How many people who weep and cry every night while trying to fall asleep on straw mats? I estimate on the basis of a UN study of refugees in Syria that <A HREF="http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iraq/story/23159.html" REL="nofollow">as many as 600,000 or 700,000 <B>Baghdadis were ethnically cleansed</B></A>from the capital under the nose of the American troops implementing the surge.'</I>AlphaLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08711124490821422066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-30788571286970190532008-01-12T13:14:00.000-06:002008-01-12T13:14:00.000-06:00Interesting informaton, Drill Sgt.Interesting informaton, Drill Sgt.AlphaLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08711124490821422066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24222578362397753202008-01-12T12:42:00.000-06:002008-01-12T12:42:00.000-06:00SGT TEDYesssssssssssssssssssssssss!SGT TED<BR/><BR/>Yesssssssssssssssssssssssss!Peter V. Bellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04209902525167395224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-16249542428317249512008-01-12T11:51:00.000-06:002008-01-12T11:51:00.000-06:00i lost half a family there moron. that was covered...<I>i lost half a family there moron. that was covered months ago. don't you dare lecture me.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, ok then, Mr Absolute Moral Authority. Since I served in Iraq and had friends killed there, I expect I will hear no more crap from you about our involvement there being a mistake. Deal?SGT Tedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00184808889760136366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-92230265997888997182008-01-12T10:40:00.000-06:002008-01-12T10:40:00.000-06:00If the Allies had bombed the camps during WWII, th...If the Allies had bombed the camps during WWII, those who now accuse us of doing little or nothing to stop the slaughter would be arguing that we *shouln't* have bombed the camps due to the increase in loss of innocent life.Der Hahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05967487071137862252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-58279884074239566702008-01-12T10:28:00.000-06:002008-01-12T10:28:00.000-06:00Per "Online Britannica" Jewish leaders didn't ask ...Per "Online Britannica" Jewish leaders didn't ask FDR to bomb Auschwitz until July 44 and that exterminations at Auschwitz stopped in Nov 44. So we're talking about a VERY short window.<BR/><BR/>And fortunately, our WWII military leaders were realists - and not politicians. They were actually trying to accomplish something, win the war, NOT risk men's lives to order to make people feel good.<BR/><BR/> I'll file "We should have done something"; After "What about the children?" and before "We just can't stand here and do nothing".rcoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17102201338319611538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41809707726199829192008-01-12T10:00:00.000-06:002008-01-12T10:00:00.000-06:00MCG, while you are correct in implying that our bo...MCG, while you are correct in implying that our bombsights were better than other nations, the theory and practice differed. Here is what wiki says about Norden (really about crew training), which BTW was used up into the Vietnam war:<BR/><BR/><I>In use in Europe the Norden likewise demonstrated a poor real-world accuracy. Under perfect conditions only 50 percent of American bombs fell within a quarter of a mile of the target, and American flyers estimated that as many as 90 percent of bombs could miss their targets. (BIG ASS TARGETS BTW) Nevertheless many veteran B-17 and B-24 bombardiers swore by the Norden.</I>The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37759184801782623062008-01-12T08:14:00.000-06:002008-01-12T08:14:00.000-06:00Revenant said...If you see a person bleeding to de...Revenant said...<BR/>If you see a person bleeding to death on the sidewalk, you help them. You don't point to the gang member on the corner and say "how come THAT guy doesn't help? I'm busy, and he's closer".<BR/><BR/>You are partly right. You have to make a choice that depends on your personal testicular fortitude. You can either run or you can shoot the gang banger, then help the guy. The gang banger caused him to lie bleeding in the first place.Peter V. Bellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04209902525167395224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-61995066251229775072008-01-12T08:13:00.000-06:002008-01-12T08:13:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Peter V. Bellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04209902525167395224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-51364439577797476432008-01-12T08:09:00.000-06:002008-01-12T08:09:00.000-06:00Children, children, take a time out. hdhouse, you...Children, children, take a time out. hdhouse, you are so consumed and blinded by hatred that you cannot see the forest for the trees. Your hatred is distorting your perception of reality. <BR/><BR/>Let us all take a deep breath and play nice.Peter V. Bellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04209902525167395224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-33693330542256225392008-01-12T08:06:00.000-06:002008-01-12T08:06:00.000-06:00Drill Sgt.You left out one important point. Bomb ...Drill Sgt.<BR/><BR/>You left out one important point. Bomb sights. New and improved bomb sights- the Norton I believe- did not come on line until the middle of the war. They increased the accuracy of the bombings.Peter V. Bellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04209902525167395224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37954303135177341952008-01-12T07:27:00.000-06:002008-01-12T07:27:00.000-06:00Rev: (1): According to Wikipedia, the B-29 had a c...Rev: <I>(1): According to Wikipedia, the B-29 had a combat radius of 3250 miles; Auschwitz is around a thousand miles from England. So we had the *capacity* to easily bomb targets at that distance, at least from a technological point of view (the bombers weren't really used in the European theater).</I><BR/><BR/>1. B-29's as you point out, were only used in the Pacific. There were handfulls used from China in Jul 44, 14 launched from islands on 28 Oct 44, and the first 100 plane strike didnt occur till 24 Nov 44, against Toyko. Now you can bomb something the size of a city from 20,000 feet in winter, but weather over Germany then is pretty bad. You can't get clear weather from England to Poland. And if you can't, your bomber stream breaks up and you leave 100+ planes each alone over Germany, easy targets for fighters. and you can't do pinpoint bombing of course, but rail lines could not even be tried without crystal clear weather. so there was a very small window for B-29 use into Poland if a decision had been made to use them in theater. There weren't many till 1 Dec 44 (in the Pacific), and Auschwitz was liberated by Russians in late January, so you would be talking about less than 60 days of bombing window.<BR/><BR/>The limiting factor was not B-29 or even B24 range, it was fighter range. the long range escort was the P-51 and it had a one way range of 1650 miles, which meant a combat radius of around 700 (up and back with loiter to the bomber stream and time to shoot a German). That meant this was the limiting range factor. Italy was the only place that could range fighters to Poland and we didn't get Rome till mid summer 44, so again before weather closed in we had from Aug-Oct 44 to bomb Auschwitz, after that weather issues would have made it problematic. and as I said before, the bombing would have to be relentless to keep the rail lines cut. Not likely that we would have diverted bombing strength from the defeat of Germans in direct fighting with American boys in Aug-Oct 44 to try a political target in Poland. Talk about a political firestorm at home.<BR/><BR/>HD,<BR/><BR/>for once I agree. Bush was playing the empathy card and he does it badly. it was BS.The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56390501279975349582008-01-12T06:03:00.000-06:002008-01-12T06:03:00.000-06:00you guys are utter bullshit.i lost half a family t...you guys are utter bullshit.<BR/><BR/>i lost half a family there moron. that was covered months ago. don't you dare lecture me.<BR/><BR/>bush is playing the crying card that you bushites hate about hillary for being human/weak/whatever. it doesn't play. bush the moron is all about showing fake compassion when he had more than a chance to be genuine and work through the Isreali situation starting at the beginning of is "term" rather than at the end of it.<BR/><BR/>he is a fake, fraud and phoney and it mystifies me that you buttheads don't get it.hdhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14573004614816464571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91192823945298251152008-01-12T04:08:00.000-06:002008-01-12T04:08:00.000-06:00Also, why was it OUR responsibility and not the So...<I>Also, why was it OUR responsibility and not the Soviets?</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, let's ask the genocidal dictator to divert military resources to prevent genocide in a foreign country. That'll work.<BR/><BR/>If you see a person bleeding to death on the sidewalk, you help them. You don't point to the gang member on the corner and say "how come THAT guy doesn't help? I'm busy, and he's closer".Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-85719895114675703702008-01-12T02:08:00.000-06:002008-01-12T02:08:00.000-06:00All of what the Drill Sgt. said is undeniable. Whe...All of what the Drill Sgt. said is undeniable. Where US leaders feel uneasy is the practice of the Roosevelt Administration, with the support of US Jewish leaders such as the publisher of the NY Times, to play down Hitler's genocidal designs on the Jews. They believed American support for the war would diminish if it became seen as the war to save the Jews. <BR/><BR/>Looking at some of the comments here, do you doubt they were right? <BR/><BR/>As a result, most Americans had no idea that Auschwitz and other death camps even existed until the end of the war.John Stodderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14185881995621265497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86411089573889078762008-01-12T01:29:00.000-06:002008-01-12T01:29:00.000-06:00Nichevo:Sorry for bringing facts and and historica...Nichevo:<BR/><BR/>Sorry for bringing facts and and historical reality into the discussion. Don't mind me, just keep dreaming those revisionist fantasies.rcoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17102201338319611538noreply@blogger.com