tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post1893207239434177608..comments2024-03-29T10:00:09.790-05:00Comments on Althouse: Emily Bazelon and Dana Goldstein talk about Lori Gottlieb's "Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-65974493365401143332010-02-18T14:54:54.908-06:002010-02-18T14:54:54.908-06:00Er...Diavlog, not Divalog. Sorry.Er...Diavlog, not Divalog. Sorry.Triangle Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02287119175364820011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64095602037484144322010-02-18T14:51:22.269-06:002010-02-18T14:51:22.269-06:00You do a Divalog with her that might not have been...You do a Divalog with her that might not have been flattering to her and then she loses her half. Sounds like the dog ate her homework.Triangle Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02287119175364820011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-6893522201012291192010-02-18T13:34:10.625-06:002010-02-18T13:34:10.625-06:00"how does one "frame involvement" w..."how does one "frame involvement" with the "self help genre"?"<br /><br />I'm not a reader of self-help books. I'm not looking to help myself through such literature. I will read such books as a Bloggingheads contributor, but I need to make sure that the author is interested in having a real conversation with me (me, specifically), and that I'm not seen as taking the role of a reporter for an author doing book tour PR. I'm not interested in just reading the book and being a sounding board. I'm interested in free-ranging dialogue and debate.<br /><br />"And why should a book entitled "Marry Him" discuss the ginormous "problem of divorce"?"<br /><br />That is amply answered in the original post. Advising marrying someone "good enough" requires some explanation about what marriage means: Is it forever or just as long as the man remains good enough? It shed a *lot* of light on her book when Gottlieb owned up to a very liberal view of divorce. <br /><br />"... and why would anyone owe you an apology after you volunteered to do something?"<br /><br />It was understood that we were working together to produce a diavlog, and when she lost her side of the diavlog, she should have felt bad about the consequences to me and at the very least emailed that she was sorry. I certainly would have.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88659156238976718572010-02-17T22:35:46.786-06:002010-02-17T22:35:46.786-06:00huh? how does one "frame involvement" w...huh? how does one "frame involvement" with the "self help genre"? What does that even mean? And why should a book entitled "Marry Him" discuss the ginormous "problem of divorce"? and why would anyone owe you an apology after you volunteered to do something?kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-65653799570446741962010-02-17T20:34:46.954-06:002010-02-17T20:34:46.954-06:00Oh, I know what my issues are:
1. The self-help g...Oh, I know what my issues are:<br /><br />1. The self-help genre is dreck and I should have been more careful about framing my involvement with it.<br /><br />2. Gottlieb seems oriented toward churning out self-help books and articles and selling them, not in discussing real issues.<br /><br />3. The question of marrying is complex, and the book addresses only things that are so shallow that there is no point in bothering with them.<br /><br />4. I wasted hours of my time and didn't even get an apology of any sort.<br /><br />5. Gottlieb hasn't thought seriously about the problem of divorce.<br /><br />6. Gottlieb only looked from her own perspective, not the perspective of the man she was settling for.<br /><br />I could go on...Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-55362593380216608972010-02-16T22:57:11.290-06:002010-02-16T22:57:11.290-06:00You can't really claim that you're above a...You can't really claim that you're above all this Ann, you read the book, dialogued about it, posted about the dialogue, updated your post about the dialogue, and chimed in on this comment thread multiple times. I'm not sure you even know what your issues with this book are, but it has clearly hit a nerve.kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-21177240538919416512010-02-16T21:23:43.344-06:002010-02-16T21:23:43.344-06:00Blech! I can't believe I've waded this far...Blech! I can't believe I've waded this far into self-help bullshit. I have no interest in this trash. I really don't care who with extra money gives it to what bullshit artist. I have no respect for this genre of writing and this corner of commerce. How I got sucked over into the women's section of Bloggingheads, an enterprise I basically really do care about, I really don't know.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-74477546805917376492010-02-16T21:14:33.768-06:002010-02-16T21:14:33.768-06:00Hey, Evan, I checked out your webpage. I love the ...Hey, Evan, I checked out your webpage. I love the part where you say "Look to my right" and nod over at something to your left.<br /><br />You *are* a ridiculous man!<br /><br />You're helping women make healthy, informed choices in love, I see. Your laughable insincerity is a sight to behold.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-44859778176395645402010-02-16T21:11:00.428-06:002010-02-16T21:11:00.428-06:00"You were invited to debate Gottlieb based on..."You were invited to debate Gottlieb based on her book. As such, it was not imperative for her to research you, but one would think you should have read her book to give her a fair adjudication."<br /><br />It was to be a conversation, and I prepared to the extent needed for a conversation. I skimmed the book. That was plenty. She should have opened up and done conversation about the topic. It wasn't that hard. It shouldn't have been like pulling teeth. <br /><br />"Next, I coached Lori Gottlieb in the book. That's no secret. And it has nothing to do with my defense of the book. My defense is because the information in it is highly useful to my clients - women in their 30s who are interested in having biological children and want to make healthier decisions in love."<br /><br />I can't imagine the sort of women you deal with. I assume they have a lot of money. This is a sort of professional help that seems truly pathetic, and I've never known anyone who has seemed to need it. <br /><br />"This is your blog, but really, show some respect to dissenters. I defended "Marry Him" because the information inside has inherent value - not because of my own pocketbook. I'm quite sure I will not make another dollar due to my depiction in it."<br /><br />I'll let my readers assess the credibility of that. <br /><br />"Finally, since you brought up an incorrect detail about me: I'm married..."<br /><br />What incorrect detail are you referring to? I didn't say you weren't married. I said Gottlieb wasn't married. Or are you referring to my calling you a ridiculous man? <br /><br />"... - mostly because I followed the advice issued in Gottlieb's book about finding a partner with whom I shared long-term values, rather than chasing a checklist of qualities. Another important message of the book... which you'd know if you'd read it."<br /><br />Oh, spare me! That advice is so banal it's ridiculous to source it to Gottlieb's book. Any fool knows that. The book posits idiots, then purports to enlighten them to the level of dim bulbs. If you are in that category, you are a ridiculous man.<br /><br />"Please don't be dismissive of reasonable people with reasonable points of view discussing them in reasonable tones. It just makes you look unreasonable."<br /><br />Evan, since you seem to love repetition, I'll say it again: You are a ridiculous man.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-31797405885306910992010-02-16T20:41:34.581-06:002010-02-16T20:41:34.581-06:00Feminists don't get it. Woman cook the food, m...Feminists don't get it. Woman cook the food, man take out the garbage. Subvert that and you're in fucking trouble.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205752419540502278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91884721559245136772010-02-16T20:24:23.471-06:002010-02-16T20:24:23.471-06:00Ms. Althouse,
"Ridiculous" would be iss...Ms. Althouse,<br /><br />"Ridiculous" would be issuing personal attacks over differences in opinion - what you've done to both Gottlieb and myself.<br /><br />You were invited to debate Gottlieb based on her book. As such, it was not imperative for her to research you, but one would think you should have read her book to give her a fair adjudication.<br /><br />Next, I coached Lori Gottlieb in the book. That's no secret. And it has nothing to do with my defense of the book. My defense is because the information in it is highly useful to my clients - women in their 30s who are interested in having biological children and want to make healthier decisions in love. <br /><br />This is your blog, but really, show some respect to dissenters. I defended "Marry Him" because the information inside has inherent value - not because of my own pocketbook. I'm quite sure I will not make another dollar due to my depiction in it.<br /><br />Finally, since you brought up an incorrect detail about me: I'm married - mostly because I followed the advice issued in Gottlieb's book about finding a partner with whom I shared long-term values, rather than chasing a checklist of qualities. Another important message of the book... which you'd know if you'd read it.<br /><br />Please don't be dismissive of reasonable people with reasonable points of view discussing them in reasonable tones. It just makes you look unreasonable.Evan Marc Katzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734053047589203106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-63969069643675744872010-02-16T15:51:03.770-06:002010-02-16T15:51:03.770-06:00"Feminism mainly argued against unequal marri..."Feminism mainly argued against unequal marriages"<br /><br />Right, so doesn't it follow that you wouldn't, or even shouldn't, marry someone less intelligent and accomplished than you? <br /><br />"Gottlieb asserted that feminism told her that she could 'have it all,' which doesn't explain why she didn't try to get 'it all.' "<br /><br />She did try to get "it all". She didn't succeed, which is kind of the point. She recognizes the trying to get "it all" as being a fool's errand, because the definition of "it all" when one is young is unrealistic.kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-76237499490765194822010-02-16T13:29:51.978-06:002010-02-16T13:29:51.978-06:00"I for one still don't understand your pr..."I for one still don't understand your problem with Gottlieb's book, other than it was "padded" which is true of 99.9% of the nonfiction books published this century. Do you deny that feminism tries to persuade women that marriage is useless generally? fish, bicycle, etc?"<br /><br />I haven't gone into all my reasons. This post is mainly about the difficulty I had getting a Bloggingheads conversation going, but the sentence that begins with "Gottlieb relied heavily on social science surveys" is a key part of what I find wrong. And there is quite a bit of criticism in the video clips if you haven't watched them<br /><br />As for the feminism stuff, I will have to do a separate post and present material from the book showing what she was saying, but briefly, it's lame as hell to blame feminism for your failure to marry. Feminism mainly argued against unequal marriages and marriages the oppressed women. Gottlieb asserted that feminism told her that she could "have it all," which doesn't explain why she didn't try to get "it all." <br /><br />I invited Gottlieb to respond to the charges against her that have been made by feminists, and she just couldn't or wouldn't do it.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-92218972178014459682010-02-16T11:37:33.883-06:002010-02-16T11:37:33.883-06:00fls, your argument is as turgid as it is specious....fls, your argument is as turgid as it is specious. as ever : )kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-8766617235858129502010-02-16T11:32:41.414-06:002010-02-16T11:32:41.414-06:00I for one still don't understand your problem ...I for one still don't understand your problem with Gottlieb's book, other than it was "padded" which is true of 99.9% of the nonfiction books published this century. Do you deny that feminism tries to persuade women that marriage is useless generally? fish, bicycle, etc?kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37540778614535689472010-02-16T05:48:23.869-06:002010-02-16T05:48:23.869-06:00"As someone who was interviewed in Gottlieb&#..."As someone who was interviewed in Gottlieb's book - and someone who gives women relationship advice for a living - I find Gottlieb's points virtually unassailable."<br /><br />Mr. Katz, I find you quite ridiculous. But thanks for putting your financial interest in the matter right on the surface where we can see it.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19398852463744935792010-02-16T05:46:20.198-06:002010-02-16T05:46:20.198-06:00"It's remarkable to me how many people ca..."It's remarkable to me how many people can criticize something without having actually read it."<br /><br />If I had read every word of that book, I'd have been a fool, and what good is a fool's opinion? I read enough to see that it was immensely padded and full of repetitive anecdotes about shallow people. I read enough to set up a conversation, which is the point of Bloggingheads. <br /><br />By the way, I don't think Gottlieb read any of my work to prepare, nor did she, for example, watch my Bloggingheads with Bella DePaulo, which might have helped her engage in a conversational way with me and produce a good diavlog. She didn't even know I was a professor, as she embarrassingly advised me at one point that I needed to go to a university to learn what feminists are like. I think she saw me as another generic PR outlet.<br /><br />BTW, talking about a book without reading the whole thing ... is that worse or better than writing a book promoting marriage when one has never been married? It would be amusing to know what book Lori Gottlieb would write about marriage if she'd "read that book" — ie, actually lived in a real marriage.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-48233867200125327352010-02-16T03:21:41.694-06:002010-02-16T03:21:41.694-06:00Math guys long ago worked it out as the "secr...Math guys long ago worked it out as the "secretary problem."<br /><br />Figure out how long you're willing to wait to get married.<br /><br />Check out candidates for the first 1/e (1/2.7) of that time<br /><br />Marry the one after that that exceeds the best so far.<br /><br />Your chances of getting the best of all are at least 1/e.<br /><br />Your chances of staying single are 1/e.rhhardinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06901742898653890646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-55004591162460518162010-02-16T02:28:48.352-06:002010-02-16T02:28:48.352-06:00Declaring that “Marry Him” is misogynist, misguide...<i>Declaring that “Marry Him” is misogynist, misguided, stupid, wrong, or pathetic without reading it is the equivalent of thinking that Obamacare includes “death panels.</i><br /><br />Wait, so this book really is all those things?Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-40569236492419161392010-02-16T01:18:51.121-06:002010-02-16T01:18:51.121-06:00If you'd really like a point by point explanat...If you'd really like a point by point explanation of all the pre-conceived biases against Gottlieb's book, I've taken the liberty of writing them down for you. <br /><br />http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dont-judge-a-book-by-its-cover-the-truth-about-%E2%80%9Cmarry-him-the-case-for-settling-for-mr-good-enough-by-lori-gottlieb/<br /><br />It's remarkable to me how many people can criticize something without having actually read it. It's like deciding you don't like Avatar because you don't buy the blue people on the poster. <br /><br />As someone who was interviewed in Gottlieb's book - and someone who gives women relationship advice for a living - I find Gottlieb's points virtually unassailable.<br /><br />Most of the criticism says much more about the critics than it does the actual book, which is entirely reasonable - and relies far more on the input of authorities than it does on Gottlieb's conclusions.<br /><br />There's just a lot of messenger shooting going on here...Evan Marc Katzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734053047589203106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-31801764601676823522010-02-16T00:27:12.214-06:002010-02-16T00:27:12.214-06:00What does intelligence have to do with character? ...What does intelligence have to do with character? <br /><br />Truly women get the men they deserve!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4511607293588718912010-02-15T23:53:17.349-06:002010-02-15T23:53:17.349-06:00are you trying to argue that I know nothing about ...<i> are you trying to argue that I know nothing about feminism?</i><br /><br />You're like a Hindu discussing filet mignon.<br /><br />Ms. magazine had an article in Summer 2007 on the resurgence of traditional biases in China with the ebbing of Communist ideology: the same traditional biases you have labeled "feminist."<br /><br /><i>Zhong Yin Sun, professor of sociology at Fudan University and currently a visiting scholar at Harvard, deplores resurrected stereotypes and terminology: <b>“People assume men should be older, smarter (better educated, at any rate), taller, and earning more money, while women should be younger, dumber, shorter, and poorer.… </b>A career woman is a ‘white collar beauty’ [traditionally feminine], or a ‘dragon lady’ [pejorative for one ‘too capable’ to find a husband, a successful but ‘unattractive’ woman, or one in an unhappy marriage]. There also is ‘exquisite woman,’ whose high social status causes difficulty finding the right man, due to ‘marry up’ culture.”</i>former law studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15196697206046544350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-81350757173757320752010-02-15T22:47:26.379-06:002010-02-15T22:47:26.379-06:00no thanks! btw, are you trying to argue that I kn...no thanks! btw, are you trying to argue that I know nothing about feminism? lolkathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-5584578126788760172010-02-15T22:24:00.557-06:002010-02-15T22:24:00.557-06:00feminism directs women never to "marry down&q...<i>feminism directs women never to "marry down" in terms of intelligence (ESPECIALLY in terms of intelligence)</i><br /><br />Read the feminist blog responses to the Pew Research Center's report on women marrying men with less education and less income than the women had. This sign of "women's empowerment" was universally applauded. Women married the men they chose for other than economic reasons.former law studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15196697206046544350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24908877914450566002010-02-15T22:12:07.109-06:002010-02-15T22:12:07.109-06:00fls, you miss the point. feminism directs women n...fls, you miss the point. feminism directs women never to "marry down" in terms of intelligence (ESPECIALLY in terms of intelligence). and any indicator that a woman might marry down intellectually, even if it's just spelling ability, sends off alarm bells of potential subjugation and in the properly indoctrinated feminist mind. that's what Gottlieb's book is about, and i can tell you from the milieu I was raised in that she wasn't snatching this stuff from thin air.kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760546833628880462noreply@blogger.com