tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post1769500282778557793..comments2024-03-19T07:09:28.479-05:00Comments on Althouse: Live-blogging the Republican Debate.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger244125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90339091675034363502011-09-13T16:29:50.211-05:002011-09-13T16:29:50.211-05:00Perry doesn't seem to have any clear position ...<i>Perry doesn't seem to have any clear position on -- is: is it the proper role of government to <b>ensure</b> that people are getting good health care, not getting cancer, not dying prematurely, and so on?</i><br /><br />I would assume he (and most people) would say no, it is not the proper role of government to <b>ensure</b> people are getting good health care and not getting cancer.<br /><br />John Edwards came the closest to advocating that position, when he was going to mandate people go to get yearly checkups. <br /><br />Perry's actions are easily explained if he believes in promoting the well-being of the citizens of his state, but weighed against the cost (both in money and liberty) of an intrusive government. With an opt-out clause, the cost of liberty was low to non-existent. With a mandate, the cost of the vaccine was lowered. The benefit of the vaccine- the side of life- was high. <br /><br />It seems neither radical, complicated, or unprincipled to me.MayBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966319657113124861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-15618799188785017782011-09-13T15:17:39.753-05:002011-09-13T15:17:39.753-05:00I'm not sure how Rick Perry's vaccine exec...<i>I'm not sure how Rick Perry's vaccine executive order fits in with your overall point about health care reform proposals, unless you are working from the starting point that Republicans are against health care and/or health care laws. ...<br /><br />That Perry said Texas wanted girls to get the HPV vaccine (anybody could opt-out) doesn't open the door for every other way government can conceivably be involved in health care, including forcing people to buy health insurace.</i><br /><br />This is the last comment I'm going to make about this, because I'm sensing we've passed the point of diminishing returns. Clearly you can go on and on about the supposed invalidity of what I said, but I stand by my observation about the fact that Perry picks and chooses his principles based on political expediency. <br /><br />Here's the thing: you seem to think that what I was saying is that since Perry thought the HPV vaccination law was a good idea, he is therefore bound to think that Obama's health-care reform is also a good idea.<br /><br />That would be preposterous, so of course I don't think that. They're two separate issues. The health-care law -- which I didn't mention in any of my earlier comments -- is a specific piece of multi-thousand page legislation that will also spawn other regulations, which may be even more complex. There may be any number of reasons to oppose that legislation that wouldn't apply to the HPV issue. Some of those arguments would even be made by people who'd support a further-left plan like single-payer.<br /><br />So, I get it. They're different issues.<br /><br />But again, I didn't say Perry would need to support Obama's health-care reform law to be consistent. I was talking about a broader issue, not that specific law.<br /><br />The broader issue -- the fundmantal question that Perry doesn't seem to have any clear position on -- is: is it the proper role of government to <i>ensure</i> that people are getting good health care, not getting cancer, not dying prematurely, and so on?<br /><br />You might say "yes" to that question, but still think Obamacare wasn't a good way to achieve that. So, you could consistently support Perry's mandatory HPV vaccination while opposing Obamacare.<br /><br />But the issue about Obamacare isn't just whether Perry would give a "yes" or "no" answer to whether he supports it. I was referring to his <i>principles</i> that would drive him to oppose that law <i>or other health-care plans that might come up in the future</i>. Unless he's to the left of all the other candidates, I believe his principle would be that the government should not "take over" health insurance because that is not the government's role. Health insurance should be left up to free markets, because people are better than government at controlling their own behavior. This freedom includes the freedom to take risks, like going without health insurance or not getting vaccinated.<br /><br />So, again, you can go on and on about how it isn't necessarily inconsistent to support Perry's compulsory STD vaccination for 12-year-old girls while opposing Obama's health-care reform. That's all well and good, but I didn't say (and didn't even mean to imply) anything to the contrary. I'm not so much interested in whether Perry would check the "support" or "oppose" box on specific pieces of legislation; I'm interested in his core convictions or lack thereof.John Althouse Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79946153175787046432011-09-13T14:26:47.795-05:002011-09-13T14:26:47.795-05:00Robert Cook said...
Regarding the question of whet...Robert Cook said...<br />Regarding the question of whether only Democrats get abortions:<br /><br />"No. Just mostly democrats.<br />Sadly, garage, it is the birth control method of choice amoung black women in the United States."<br /><br />And you have citations to support your assertion?<br /><br /><br />Check with Planned Parenthood. They're rather proud of it.Rustyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938263272237104128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-16821909573124532682011-09-13T12:52:45.573-05:002011-09-13T12:52:45.573-05:00et's face it: he takes one position on the rel...<i>et's face it: he takes one position on the relationship between government and health, then turns around and takes a directly contradictory position. If he "always" supports government actively ordering people around in an attempt to "save lives" or "fight cancer," then he's in no position to make the standard conservative arguments against government having a strong role in health insurance.</i><br /><br />I'm sorry, but that reminds me of the kind of argument people make when they support zero-tolerance policies.<br />It also reminds me of Obama's straw man arguments. "There are those who think government has no role in health care...." and "There are those who think the government should have no role in our lives".<br /><br />The idea that it's nothing vs. any other option isn't the reality. That Perry said Texas wanted girls to get the HPV vaccine (anybody could opt-out) doesn't open the door for every other way government can conceivably be involved in health care, including forcing people to buy health insurace.MayBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966319657113124861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-32130911792952269192011-09-13T12:44:18.799-05:002011-09-13T12:44:18.799-05:00I don't understand: is your list of some of th...<i>I don't understand: is your list of some of the arguments made by Ezra Klein supposed to refute my observation that Ezra Klein also made another argument?</i><br /><br />No, it's supposed to point out that Ezra Klein would throw anything at the wall to see what would stick when it came to pushing whatever version of "health care reform" Democrats were pushing at the time. Some of it not factually supported. Much of it not supportive of the idea of choosing life first.<br /><br />I'm not sure how Rick Perry's vaccine executive order fits in with your overall point about health care reform proposals, unless you are working from the starting point that Republicans are against health care and/or health care laws.MayBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966319657113124861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70492909998127450162011-09-13T12:03:13.524-05:002011-09-13T12:03:13.524-05:00Regarding the question of whether only Democrats g...Regarding the question of whether only Democrats get abortions:<br /><br /><i>"No. Just mostly democrats.<br />Sadly, garage, it is the birth control method of choice amoung black women in the United States."</i><br /><br />And you have citations to support your assertion?Robert Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06951286299515983901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37684976745829507742011-09-13T11:21:20.559-05:002011-09-13T11:21:20.559-05:00I don't think people who respond to those situ...<i>I don't think people who respond to those situations in that manner should employ the term "pro-life" to describe themselves just because their position on one particular issue happens to be on the side of life.</i><br /><br />People who do try to apply the pro-life idea across issues, like myself, or <a href="http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bernardincappunishmt.html" rel="nofollow">Cardinal Bernardine</a>, are often opposed to the death penalty as well as abortion. <br /><br />I feel a pro-life worldview--and a recognition that a government can do evil--cuts across politics and causes you to rethink your stance on issues. I became pro-life on abortion first, and then opposed to the death penalty. <br /><br />You assume that the random Republican in the audience is pro-life. You can't possibly know this. Lots of libertarians support abortion rights but vote Republican anyway. <br /><br />But even if he is pro-life, when you think about what it means to be pro-life, it affects how you think about other issues. If he is pro-life, he may very well be on a path to questioning his belief in the death penalty.<br /><br />Or not. <br /><br />I do not believe those people who support the death penalty are hostile to life. Many people believe that "an eye for an eye" protects human life. <br /><br />My stance on the death penalty changed not because I think a vicious murderer has a right to live. My stance on the death penalty changed because I do not trust the government's ability to resolve factual questions with 100% accuracy. In short I worry about innocent people being executed.Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-40689266084771623602011-09-13T10:23:40.888-05:002011-09-13T10:23:40.888-05:00It seems that some people instinctively wanted to ...It seems that some people instinctively <i>wanted </i>to disagree with my point about Perry's incoherence on health care. But I notice that no one actually found any fault in what I said about Perry's blatant lack of principles. Let's face it: he takes one position on the relationship between government and health, then turns around and takes a directly contradictory position. If he "always" supports government <i>actively</i> ordering people around in an attempt to "save lives" or "fight cancer," then he's in no position to make the standard conservative arguments against government having a strong role in health insurance. (Guess what: if you want to stay alive and prevent or fight cancer, having health insurance is much better than not having health insurance!) I'm not saying anything about <i>which </i>of his views is correct, but they can't <i>both </i>be correct.John Althouse Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-26766199836279357522011-09-13T10:10:28.379-05:002011-09-13T10:10:28.379-05:00You don't like "Pro Life" or "P...<i>You don't like "Pro Life" or "Pro Choice"...what terms would you choose?</i><br /><br />How about "opposed to abortion rights," "abortion-rights opponents," "in favor of abortion rights," "abortion-rights supporters"?John Althouse Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-44270324897105721532011-09-13T10:07:55.471-05:002011-09-13T10:07:55.471-05:00Ezra Klein also made the arguments that US compani...<i>Ezra Klein also made the arguments that US companies were not competitive because they had to provide health insurance, that health care reform would reduce the cost of health care, would reduce the deficit and improve the economy, and that we could save money by offering less healthcare in the final months of life.</i><br /><br />I don't understand: is your list of <i>some</i> of the arguments made by Ezra Klein supposed to refute my observation that Ezra Klein also made another argument?John Althouse Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36474019685023681612011-09-13T09:28:15.677-05:002011-09-13T09:28:15.677-05:00So you think only Democrats get abortions?
No. J...So you think only Democrats get abortions? <br /><br />No. Just mostly democrats.<br />Sadly, garage, it is the birth control method of choice amoung black women in the United States.<br /><br /><br />As an aside.<br />You must have an inordinately large penis. You seem to step on it a lot.Rustyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938263272237104128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-76437377099154857622011-09-13T07:51:29.248-05:002011-09-13T07:51:29.248-05:00Chris -this is who they are. Keep up the good figh...Chris -this is who they are. Keep up the good fight.master cylinderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774386180547555780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-10944402704308343422011-09-13T07:40:52.017-05:002011-09-13T07:40:52.017-05:00Romney's a joke as are all of them (including ...Romney's a joke as are all of them (including Michele Bozoman) but Mittens showed a bit of spine in not agreeing with Tex Perry that social security was a criminal racketJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-73663105148679490032011-09-13T07:29:51.258-05:002011-09-13T07:29:51.258-05:00Wasn't there someone else up there on stage? ...Wasn't there someone else up there on stage? I seem to remember he actually had a few good things to say, I'm surprised he's not mentioned once in this liveblog.<br /><br />[*psst* it was newt!]Ron Moseshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15220682921967581988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-17104297484124700722011-09-13T07:16:59.892-05:002011-09-13T07:16:59.892-05:00@ Chris Althouse Cohen:
You don't like "...@ Chris Althouse Cohen:<br /><br />You don't like "Pro Life" or "Pro Choice"...what terms would you choose?<br /><br />BTW, your logic approaches the absurdity of garage mahal...Curious Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14440726941494085334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64514372143065878122011-09-13T06:48:41.783-05:002011-09-13T06:48:41.783-05:00The Republican wanna-bes had a debate last night? ...The Republican wanna-bes had a debate last night? Heck, I was switching back and forth between the season finale of DESIGN STAR on HGTV and the latest episode of AMERICAN CHOPPER: SR. vs. JR. on Discovery Channel. <br /><br />Somebody should have let the word out...at least then I would <i>known</i> what I wasn't wasting my time with. Did anyone else know this was happening?Robert Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06951286299515983901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70871660244345275582011-09-13T05:55:18.073-05:002011-09-13T05:55:18.073-05:00Yeah, yeah, commies like to kill the innocent and ...Yeah, yeah, commies like to kill the innocent and spare the guilty. We get it. Now get back to killing the unborn and allow us to execute criminals. <br /><br />Actually, after seeing what Nifong did in Durham I am less enthusiastic about capital punishment than I once was. With luck, it will remain nothing more than an abstract point of argument in my life, worthy of no real contemplation. And, due to bed-wetting liberals, the death penalty is no longer used in NC.The Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05354536924604187137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-39823857817334079422011-09-13T04:14:46.064-05:002011-09-13T04:14:46.064-05:00the audience seemed really enthused about the pros...<i>the audience seemed really enthused about the prospect of someone dying when it comes to the death penalty and an uninsured 30-year-old.</i><br /><br />A single audience member yelled "yes" in answer to a question and you spin that as "the audience seemed really enthused about someone dying"?<br /><br />Funny stuff.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-17361501667424283412011-09-13T03:16:40.177-05:002011-09-13T03:16:40.177-05:00Let's don't forget that Michelle Obama kep...Let's don't forget that Michelle Obama kept her hospital out of the HPV vaccine studies because subjecting black girls to that would have been too much like TuskegeeMayBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966319657113124861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-6722160090713035642011-09-13T02:33:40.350-05:002011-09-13T02:33:40.350-05:00I note it is real easy for folks in the snow belt ...I note it is real easy for folks in the snow belt to be tough on illegal immigration, but they don't have to deal with the problems or face the large numbers of Hispanic voters like Perry or Huntsman have done.caseym54https://www.blogger.com/profile/03452934303641667027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-32087712334679017382011-09-13T02:33:01.600-05:002011-09-13T02:33:01.600-05:00Apparently Palin was on FOX backing Bachmann's...Apparently Palin was on FOX backing Bachmann's ludicrously over-the-top attack on Perry re Gardisil, charging him with "crony capitalism." A charge which is absurd on its face-- even if you disagree with Perry's decision on the vaccine. <br /><br />Really, Palin? Really, Bachmann? Obama, whose administration is marked by the most widespread, massive, egregious cases of crony capitalism in living memory, sends his heartfelt thanks for thus cheapening the term & draining the charge of its power, helping to neutralize the issue in the general election. <br /><br />Maybe this will shake the infatuation out of some of Palin's starry-eyed admirers. Ace has been demolishing Palin on Twitter <a href="http://twitter.com/#!/AceofSpadesHQ" rel="nofollow">here</a>. <br /><br />(Can i just say how much I love Ace? "I'm not big into keeping diseases alive on the theory that they are God's Sacred Microbes of Cancerous Chastisement" LOL)<br /><br /> My theory: any conservative who's lavishly praised by the NYT (as Palin recently was) risks serious infection, a metastasis & putrefaction of the ego. <br /><br />Oh, and to liken "a 2,000-page monstrosity of a bill that dramatically overhauls key elements of [our] health-care system" (to use Chip's apt description) with a single vaccine mandated in a <i>state</i> which <i>has an opt-out</i> (and never passed anyway) = analogy fail.yashuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716156754089411837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-65939169325676563662011-09-13T01:54:14.144-05:002011-09-13T01:54:14.144-05:00The US has the best health outcomes in the world f...The US has the best health outcomes in the world for people with actual diseases. Enacting a 2,000-page monstrosity of a bill that dramatically overhauls key elements of that health-care system in order to achieve goals that could easily be attained through very narrowly targeted reforms does not qualify as "pro-life" in any meaningful sense.<br /><br />And anyone who dislikes the widely understood euphemisms "pro-choice" and "pro-life" is perfectly free to replace them with the starker terms "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion." I'm pretty sure the "pro-lifers" would be fine with that switch. The "pro-choicers," not so much.Chip S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13210586187250159751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19027138658281470002011-09-13T01:34:15.079-05:002011-09-13T01:34:15.079-05:00I never said that it's logically inconsistent ...I never said that it's logically inconsistent to be against abortion and in favor of the death penalty. My point is that, in both debates, the audience seemed really enthused about the prospect of someone dying when it comes to the death penalty and an uninsured 30-year-old. More than one person yells out "Yeah!" at that point in the debate, and there is a jubilance to both reactions. I don't think people who respond to those situations in that manner should employ the term "pro-life" to describe themselves just because their position on one particular issue happens to be on the side of life. It's a euphemism that I don't like (I don't like "pro-choice" either), and many people have pointed this out before me.Chris Althouse Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16417474428725474616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64595916424097108932011-09-13T01:31:51.378-05:002011-09-13T01:31:51.378-05:00Megan McArdle:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazin...Megan McArdle:<br /><br />http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/03/myth-diagnosis/7905/<br /><br /><i> Richard Kronick of the University of California at San Diego’s Department of Family and Preventive Medicine, an adviser to the Clinton administration, recently published the results of what may be the largest and most comprehensive analysis yet done of the effect of insurance on mortality. He used a sample of more than 600,000, and controlled not only for the standard factors, but for how long the subjects went without insurance, whether their disease was particularly amenable to early intervention, and even whether they lived in a mobile home. In test after test, he found no significantly elevated risk of death among the uninsured. </i>MayBeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966319657113124861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-261896459179817852011-09-13T01:31:45.687-05:002011-09-13T01:31:45.687-05:00Saint Croix said...
Obama's problem was he had...Saint Croix said...<br />Obama's problem was he had zero experience.<br /><br />Well, he's got experience now. He's got four years of experience. <br /><br />He's also had major accomplishments. <br /><br />He killed Osama Bin Laden. <br /><br /><br />===================<br />1. You omit that when people talk Executive experience, they are talking about someone with successful executive experience. Obama is the equivalent of a CEO wanting another 4 years when he put his firm on the brink of Chapt 11 on grounds he might be a fuckup, but he is an experienced fuckup.<br /><br />2. Obama killed bin Laden? <br />Who knew??<br />To me he is just a skinny jug-eared law lecturer. I honestly have my doubts he even knows how to aim and fire a weapon. Probably, like work a tough job that made him break into a sweat as a youngster, change a tire or check oil - firing a gun is something Obama never has done. <br /><br />Saying Obama "killed bin Laden" is like saying FDR leading the charge inhis wheelchair "beat the Nazis in the D-Day battle" or Nixon should get credit for scooping up some astronauts and dropping them on the moon.Cedarfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00602418702398818596noreply@blogger.com