tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post1680996356670726156..comments2024-03-28T10:16:41.744-05:00Comments on Althouse: "My parents are actually worried about retaliation against Asians."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41193135529375208812007-04-22T02:06:00.000-05:002007-04-22T02:06:00.000-05:00As a Korean-American, I understand why the communt...As a Korean-American, I understand why the communty is afraid of retaliation, even though I doubt we will see violence. <BR/><BR/>The Los Angeles Riots of '92 are often attributed to Rodney King's beating, but the reason why the looting and torching primarily focused on KA-owned businesses is that a KA store-owner had shot to death an African-American teen, Latasha Harlins, over a bottle of orange juice.<BR/> <BR/>Some KAs figure that the national attention on a Korean responsible for kiling 32 will cause an even greater backlash than the Riots.<BR/><BR/>What I think is more likely to happen than violence against KAs is that Americans will remember the killer was Korean and *subconsciously* discriminate against KAs on admissions committees, in job hiring, renting, etc. <BR/><BR/>Already according to stories I've heard on the radio, at least a few KA children have been spat on & teased about having the potential to follow in Seung Cho's footsteps. I can only imagine how that must feel, as my own childhood was peppered with jokes and comments about Koreans eating dog meat, beating their wives, being alcoholics, North Korea, and the "crazy" armed Korean men on the rooftops guarding their businesses during the LA Riots. <BR/><BR/>I hope that the Virginia Tech massacre underscores the importance of treating mental illness and I also hope that it prompts immigrants to seek professional help for autistic, poorly socialized children like Cho. I also hope parents and schools take greater measures to protect children from being bullied and ridiculed basically his whole life, as my own personal theory is that lifelong bullying either created his mental illness or escalated a pre-existing mental disorder.Susiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11039064530022676850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-45956524168718965172007-04-21T13:27:00.000-05:002007-04-21T13:27:00.000-05:00As a korean I don't feel the press has emphasized ...As a korean I don't feel the press has emphasized on his korean-ness or asian-ness. All analysis has been quite fair from my viewpoint. If people are concerned about the mentioning of him being "korean" just read the article about the recent shooting at NASA. That guy is mentioned as being "slim and white". Rascism is overblown. On the flip-side I do see the concern of korean-americans. Unfortunately in the history of the US there has been racial backlash to violent events carried out on minority groups (religious, racial, economical), however few and far between. A fairly recent event of memory for korean americans may be of the LA riots. It is still ripe in the minds of some.isyourcolor?https://www.blogger.com/profile/04768311616087871426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-23226010479312849502007-04-20T17:50:00.000-05:002007-04-20T17:50:00.000-05:00The real question is: are crazy people overrepres...The real question is: <I>are crazy people overrepresented in English departments?</I> English and psych!ambahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12042450225428891273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-27248681076660266672007-04-20T16:49:00.000-05:002007-04-20T16:49:00.000-05:00There is only one group of which this kid is repre...There is only one group of which this kid is representative, and that is crazy people. That is, the subset of mentally ill loners who act out their violent fantasies. I have the impression that almost everybody recognizes this. If being from an immigrant family was one of the stressors that isolated this kid and made him feel alienated, other stressors had the same effect on Dylan Klebold, Kip Kinkel, Charles Whitman, etc., all of whom happen to have been white. The personality type and the pathology cut across all ethnic groups.ambahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12042450225428891273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-21963571334471605582007-04-19T23:41:00.000-05:002007-04-19T23:41:00.000-05:00your post today surprised me in its lack of awaren...your post today surprised me in its lack of awareness about stigma around race issues. i hope, as a law professor, you make it a point to understand the complexity of the issue a little better, rather than assume you know are an authority on what it's like to be perceived as a racial minority. just fyi - there is currently a climate of fear going on in which muslims/arabs are being lumped together and discrminated against. check out your colleagues's work on this issue: http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/home.asprun.happyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13675321344303154172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-77268168047827616592007-04-19T22:43:00.000-05:002007-04-19T22:43:00.000-05:00Yes, Pat it is. The man's grandfather in Korea has...Yes, Pat it is. The man's grandfather in Korea has mentioned "taking responsibility" for his grandson's actions. That is a euphemism for suicide to atone for the deaths caused and help erase the shame brought upon the family. That is not common these days, but I am sure the family there are watching him closely lest he actually do it.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03071928294799081845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-53726880601164584892007-04-19T21:42:00.000-05:002007-04-19T21:42:00.000-05:00Apparently backlash is common in Korea against the...Apparently backlash is common in Korea against the US, if this account is accurate. Maybe that's why we hear about "fear of backlash" here.<BR/><BR/>http://www.usinkorea.org/1st/TRAGEDY/index.htmlPatCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08920623662477828662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11530424390788791112007-04-19T10:09:00.000-05:002007-04-19T10:09:00.000-05:00Beth, I apologize for the misattribution.Beth, I apologize for the misattribution.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36183231853987168592007-04-19T06:47:00.000-05:002007-04-19T06:47:00.000-05:00I find myself in an odd position of having to quot...I find myself in an odd position of having to quote myself in response to Revenant's complaint:<BR/><BR/>"The issue is not whether there were "widespread" attacks on Arabs/Muslims, but whether there were attacks precipitated purely by the victim's perceived ethnicity or religion. Even one would be too many, but that's a radical notion, I suppose."<BR/><BR/>There is a reason why I put "widespread" in quotation marks--it's because IR used the term first. So don't accuse me of "moving the goalposts"--my argument has been consistent on this point: "widespread" is too vaguely defined to worry about it as a meaningful distinction; "isolated" is not opposite of "widespread"; even a single episode would be too many.<BR/><BR/>Note the last bit--that meshes just fine with the idea that the backlash was "not insignificant".<BR/><BR/>Second, I am not comparing the severity of the crime between "killings" and "attacks". My point is that we should be careful how we use statistics to claim that something is "insignificant"--which is what you, joe and IR were doing. The number of violent bigoted attacks in the country is comparable to the number of violent deaths. Saying that these numbers are comparable does not mean that the acts are comparable. But with the averages overall being comparable numerically, it would be reasonable to compare subgroups numerically as well, which is what I did.<BR/><BR/>Your third argument is utterly meritless for what should be obvious reasons. If you don't see why, consider the weight of your "evidence".<BR/><BR/>Your fourth argument is another point of fiction. You again grasp for "widespread", which was not my term, and compound it with an argument about attacks on Muslims. My comments have been consistently about backlash being represented by attacks on "perceived Muslims"--that's the point! These attacks are based on someone's mistaken belief that they are paying back the Muslims for 9/11. Never mind that the belief is delusional to begin with.<BR/><BR/>Like I said, you have learn to interpret statistics instead of just reading them. <BR/><BR/>Your final point is likewise irrelevant, which is why I ignored it to begin with. It is undisputed that the number and nature of attacks because the attacked believed that their victims were Arab, Muslim or "Middle-Eastern" escalated in "months following 9/11". Similarly, there was another spike after the WTC bombing in '93. We are not talking about taunts here--the issue is violence.<BR/><BR/>Your complaint is that anti-Semitic and anti-gay violence might have gone up at a higher clip during the same period. So what? What does that prove? Are you suggesting that the increase in this specific kind of attacks was a result of random fluctuations? Whatever the reasons for changing numbers of attacks against specific groups, they need not have any relationships to each other. If you want an explanation for the disparity in the rates, I could give you one, but your query has nothing to do with the issue at hand.ShadowFoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06043933642833087018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22849749224242766372007-04-18T22:57:00.000-05:002007-04-18T22:57:00.000-05:00Tom T - You are absolutely correct about those oth...Tom T - You are absolutely correct about those other incidents; i was referring to acts of violence specifically in retaliation for terrorist attacks. I don't know of any that happened in the five boroughs in the aftermath of 9/11, though I may have missed some. There were several in other parts of the country, though.Wade Garretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02427231454565149921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37657946471331079532007-04-18T22:36:00.000-05:002007-04-18T22:36:00.000-05:00Wade Garrett's suggestion that people in New York ...Wade Garrett's suggestion that people in New York are less likely to commit race-based crimes overlooks obvious counter-examples, such as Bensonhurst, Howard Beach, Crown Heights, Red Apple, and Freddie's Fashion Mart, not to mention Tawana Brawley, the railroading of the Central Park "wilding" youths, Abner Louima, and Amadou Diallo. I think it's a mistake to suggest that people in NYC are any better or worse than people in other parts of the country when it comes to occasional incidents of race hatred.Tom T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09717653124763053411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-84774809307175284812007-04-18T22:04:00.000-05:002007-04-18T22:04:00.000-05:00Thank you, Kirby and Independent G. for the truest...Thank you, Kirby and Independent G. for the truest and funniest statements about the "backlash" that all the multiculti's are dreaming of. Dopey Lisa Ling opened her shot on Oprah today with a statement about how scared all the Asians there are, and she is, about that backlash. <BR/>Well, sez Her O, has their been any yet? <BR/>No, sez Lisa, ruefully. <BR/>Oh.<BR/><BR/>A Dr. <A HREF="http://www2.oprah.com/tows/slide/200704/20070418/slide_20070418_284_114.jhtml" REL="nofollow">Susan Lipkins</A> tho made a lot of sense (a rare find today) who said schools need to toughen up, follow the spirit not the letter of the law and protect students from people like Cho; need a warning siren; and need to teach students self-defense. Amen, sistah! <BR/><BR/><BR/>O/T all this talk about a text warning system is beyond ridiculous. A freaking siren would do the trick nicely.PatCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08920623662477828662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-82450030549898575482007-04-18T21:43:00.000-05:002007-04-18T21:43:00.000-05:00Oh right - there's absolutely zero referrals to hi...Oh right - there's absolutely zero referrals to him being Asian.<BR/><BR/>Yeah right.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile - here's Weblog Award Finalizst Debbie Schlussel going on an anti-immigrant rampage.<BR/><BR/>http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/04/who_is_the_asia.html<BR/><BR/>But we'll pretend this doesn't exist.downtownladhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08663069432164302806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-57778501848927794202007-04-18T21:40:00.000-05:002007-04-18T21:40:00.000-05:00Meanwhile, I'm not seeing a lot of attention paid ...<I>Meanwhile, I'm not seeing a lot of attention paid to the murderer's Koreanness.</I><BR/><BR/>In the US. Last night, I was browsing Korean sites (on completely unrelated errands -- I was not looking for this), and saw sidebars and message board posts and all that with Cho Seung-Hui's face, saying things like "Look at the face of Cho Seung-Hui!" Koreans are certainly paying attention to his race. And many of us are ashamed.<BR/><BR/>It's not only the Koreans, I expect. Certain segments of the Japanese population, well-represented on popular message boards, seem always to be looking for evidence of Korean misbehaviour. For example, the 1992 LA riots, when Koreans were targeted, turns up from time to time as evidence that Koreans cannot live with other peoples (yes, blaming the victims). This incident will almost certainly join the list. I haven't seen it yet, but I've actually consciously decided not to look, because I don't want to see the orgy of anti-Korean gloating I know I'm going to find if I actually look for it.<BR/><BR/>That said, I think it's appropriate to be ashamed here, that our community, as it were, put forth this murderer. I am <I>also</I> embarassed (if not ashamed) at the Koreans for whom it's all about <I>them,</I> all about how there's going to be a backlash against <I>them</I> etc. etc. That's just self-centred.Balfegorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08012196656096263507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-9851349392790510322007-04-18T21:17:00.000-05:002007-04-18T21:17:00.000-05:00If one claims that a couple of hundred Muslims out...<I>If one claims that a couple of hundred Muslims out of 2-3 million (the totals are disputed) is an insignificant number, would not the same argument apply to the number of WTC victims compared to the population of Metropolitan NYC (over 20 million)?</I><BR/><BR/>There are many things wrong with your argument, but I'll try taking them one at a time.<BR/><BR/>First of all, you are equating the Americans who were <B>killed</B>, in a single day, by the same group of terrorists, to the Muslims who were <B>attacked</B> over a period of *months* by various random assholes acting alone. The actual body count for anti-Muslim sentiment in the year following 9/11 was three. If late 2001 had brought a wave of attacks by scattered Muslims in which 3000 Americans were beaten up over the course of a year there would be a lot of hemming and hawing and demands for law and order, but it would not have inspired the kind of emotional reaction that 9/11 did. The average daily murder rate for the United States is approximately 45 people per day, spread out over the entire country. When you factor out the criminal-on-criminal murder it is more like 20. So it is obvious why the mass murder of thousands of completely innocent people made a huge impression.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, you've moved the goalposts. Your initial claim was that attacks against Muslims were "widespread". Now that that has been proven false you have retreated to the argument that the number of Muslims attacked isn't "insignificant", which so far as I can tell isn't a claim anyone's actually made.<BR/><BR/>Thirdly, I would roughly estimate that around 1% of the white people I've personally been close friends or associates with over the years were at one time or another physically attacked, by black people, just for being white (mostly back in high school). This has not inspired me to live in fear of The Black War On White People or any other such silliness. I correctly recognized that I was in no real danger.<BR/><BR/>Fourthly, if you want to argue that people were attacked for "looking Muslim" rather than for BEING Muslim then talk about race-based attacks, not religion-based attacks. Don't complain about allegedly "widespread" attacks on "Muslims" and then dodge the fact that they didn't happen by talking about what happened to the unlucky Sikhs.<BR/><BR/>Finally, you completely ignored my earlier point that it is the *increase* in attacks on Muslims which matters when looking at the 9/11 backlash, not the overall number of attacks. The fact that the spike in attacks was (a) temporary and (b) didn't even rise to the level that groups like gays and Jews face on a yearly basis is sufficient to demonstrate that the hype about "anti-Muslim backlash" is a load of hooey.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-18074090177915503432007-04-18T19:06:00.000-05:002007-04-18T19:06:00.000-05:00Revenant wrote:According to the CIA World Factbook...Revenant wrote:<BR/><I>According to the CIA World Factbook there are 2.98 million Muslims in the United States, which would mean that approximately 0.01% of American Muslims faced a religion-based attack.</I><BR/><BR/>You can't just read statistics, you need to interpret it. I'll give you a hint--what is the largest ethnic group that self-identifies as Muslim in the US? Here's another hint--they are not under threat of anti-Muslim violence.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, the group that found itself the most vulnerable after 9/11 is the Sikhs because they are the only group that routinely wears turbans in the US. Contrary to the beliefs of Middle America, Sikhs are not Muslims.<BR/><BR/>Many, if not most, Lebanese Arabs in the US are also not Muslims. Other people that have been misidentifies as Muslims or Arabs are Armenians of all origins (former Soviet Armenia, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Turkey) and Assyrians (largely Iraqi Christians--neither Arab nor Muslim).<BR/><BR/>Beth makes a good point which I am going to adopt and modify here. To understand the threat, you have to take on this issue not from the point of view of the Majority. Put yourself in a position of a Muslim or someone who could be misidentified and singled out as Muslim. For them, the risk appears much more substantial even if the numbers don't bear the fear out. Every incident hits home. With each incident, each such person feels vulnerable.<BR/><BR/>The importance of 9/11 is that it made virtually all American feel vulnerable--even though 3000 people, mostly New Yorkers is a very small number, statistically. If one claims that a couple of hundred Muslims out of 2-3 million (the totals are disputed) is an insignificant number, would not the same argument apply to the number of WTC victims compared to the population of Metropolitan NYC (over 20 million)?<BR/><BR/>I am not making such comparison to minimize 9/11. Quite the opposite--I am pointing out a glaring flaw in your statistical arguments. We feel the impact of 9/11 because the number of victims was disproportionately large from a single disaster. We are immune to dozens of people dying from gun violence, as it happens in every large city in the US--largely because the daily numbers are small and the impact is not felt all at once.<BR/><BR/>But when one lunatics kills 32 people in a spree, it hits home. For the same reason, people are concerned about plane crashes, even though air-travel is safer than driving a car, statistically.<BR/><BR/>We also tend to be immune when this happens somewhere else--consider the fact that nearly 200 people were killed by car bombs today in Iraq, most in Baghdad. How does 198 compare to 32? And they have higher casualty counts <I>on a daily basis</I>.ShadowFoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06043933642833087018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86186481935895195522007-04-18T18:59:00.000-05:002007-04-18T18:59:00.000-05:00As for the fears of 9-11 backlash, Dennis the Peas...As for the fears of 9-11 backlash, Dennis the Peasant had an interesting post in which he describes a group of Muslim elders asking him if they should expect to be rounded up and/or deported in the wake of 9-11.Peter Hohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916196998855947137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86246513149118308832007-04-18T17:35:00.000-05:002007-04-18T17:35:00.000-05:00"Because, if you keep spouting this nonsense, some..."Because, if you keep spouting this nonsense, someone might call you a bigot."---ShadowFox<BR/><BR/>Let's look at what I said. I said this:<BR/><BR/>"Whites aren't overrepresented on College campuses everywhere."---Maxine<BR/><BR/>Well, they're not. But we all know which Non-Caucasian ethnic group is. I don't know why that statement is considered bigoted<BR/><BR/>Was it this statement I made earlier?:<BR/><BR/>"Potential for academic success should be predicated on grades, not how much trauma you've had in childhood."--Maxine<BR/><BR/>Nothing bigoted about that. That's what we all want, right?<BR/><BR/>ShadowFox--- do you even know what bigotry is? Let me help you out: <BR/><BR/>If, for example, I'd said that the shooter was nothing but a dirty slanty-eyed Gook....now that may indicate slight bigotry. But, you see, that isn't what I said. I never called the shooter a filthy Gook, nor did I call Margaret Cho a skanky slanty-eyed diesel-dyke Gook---either.<BR/><BR/>Never said that, and you simply didn't hear it from me.<BR/><BR/>ShadowFox, do you really think I'm the type of person to just start in calling people such epithets as..... Gook, Chink, Jap, Wop, Kike, Mick, Spik, Fag, Monkey, Wetback, etc....<BR/><BR/>Shame on you, ShadowFox, you know I'd never use such terms as those, therefore I can't possibly be a bigot.<BR/><BR/>Love, MaxineMaxine Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164122931399241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-34439144816907307802007-04-18T16:59:00.000-05:002007-04-18T16:59:00.000-05:00I'm ashamed for my discipline and hope that there ...I'm ashamed for my discipline and hope that there is no retaliation against English majors.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-9421816729000323752007-04-18T16:56:00.000-05:002007-04-18T16:56:00.000-05:00It must be very rare for English majors to do this...It must be very rare for English majors to do this kind of thing. Is it not the first of a kind? I would think that English majors are the least likely to know how to handle a gun. I myself have never held a gun. Have no desire to ever hold a gun. The very sight of them on TV makes me want to throw up. the whole idea of being an English major means that you think PERSUASION and COMMUNICATION are more important than slaughtering people to make your point. <BR/><BR/>The pen is mightier than the sword and all that.<BR/><BR/>But Cho wasn't a very good writer and was getting tossed from a lot of his classes. The poet Nikki Giovanni tossed him from her poetry class.<BR/><BR/>How many English majors have ever done anything like this? Can anyone think of any other killers who were English majors? I believe that we are a pretty benign lot in spite of all the fuss we make about commas and narrative flow. <BR/><BR/>One thing we can be fairly certain about: Cho as a playwright was not the second coming of Shakespeare.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-69471797034808747812007-04-18T16:43:00.000-05:002007-04-18T16:43:00.000-05:00Ok, I am Asian, and have a Korean-sounding name (t...Ok, I am Asian, and have a Korean-sounding name (though I'm actually Chinese), and my reaction to this is... huh?<BR/><BR/>It honestly never occurred to me that there might be a backlash against Asians until I read this post, and now I'm afraid there will be a backlash against Asians because we won't shut up about a backlash. I'm actually more offended by Margaret Cho's comments than anything I've seen, heard, or read anywhere else. Sweet merciful crap, this is asinine.Independent Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14559237565237736636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-74362569752136459522007-04-18T16:06:00.000-05:002007-04-18T16:06:00.000-05:00In the wake of this outrageous, despicable atrocit...<I>In the wake of this outrageous, despicable atrocity, I do note that, from my observations, the online reaction to the shooter's "Korean-ness" has been, IMHO, relatively muted. This could be because there really is a generally positive stereotype of Koreans out there. So maybe there won't be any notable backlash.</I><BR/><BR/>Though not knowing of online reaction, I am not surprised if your observation is true. From comments I've read at NYT and one other site, shock at the magnitude of killing (rather than at the killer) seems to be the main register in this case.tuannyriverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01843788107767916078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-46088204981347015032007-04-18T16:02:00.000-05:002007-04-18T16:02:00.000-05:00I found "Asian" a little distasteful at first. It ...<I>I found "Asian" a little distasteful at first. It just sounds ugly. And yet, many more people are completely offended by "Oriental". Fascinating.</I> <BR/><BR/>I think it's because there used to be many cultural associations to the word "oriental", esp. before WWII: e.g., mysterious, intriguing, feminine, soft, incomprehensible (speech, sometimes manners), etc. Think Madame Butterfly on the one hand and the upstairs Japanese neighbor in "Breakfast at Tiffany" on the other.tuannyriverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01843788107767916078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41438007951463886642007-04-18T15:59:00.000-05:002007-04-18T15:59:00.000-05:00For Cho and those like her it will always be about...For Cho and those like her it will always be about identity politics, and about making sure they can portray themselves as victims of whites so they can feel superior to whites.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-75203815902975036092007-04-18T15:53:00.000-05:002007-04-18T15:53:00.000-05:00IR, I should have stopped to chat with them about ...IR, I should have stopped to chat with them about it. It was just that one message; everything else was perfectly average, condolences, prayers and so forth.<BR/><BR/>No, I don't believe we're a nation of bigots poised to pound somebody. But I still understand any Asian person's fear that maybe, just maybe, he or she could be among the few is unlucky enough to meet up with, perhaps, those punks in the French Quarter.Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774002797359859550noreply@blogger.com