tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post116567238330783815..comments2024-03-19T07:40:22.649-05:00Comments on Althouse: What I think is really going on in the war on trans fat.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165986276110467972006-12-12T23:04:00.000-06:002006-12-12T23:04:00.000-06:00opps new to this the rest of my post:Other way aro...opps new to this the rest of my post:<BR/><BR/>Other way around! OTHER WAY AROUND! HDL reduces plaque LDL increase it and YES we do know why it lowers total cholesterol, it bloody test I’m taking tomorrow. HDL has high amount of AP A-I protein which remove cholesterol from tissue as well as several other protein which help metabolize cholesterol. LDL is mostly apo-B100 which promotes the formation of plaque. There is your biochemical evidence of causation.<BR/><BR/>People get a grip on reality. Restaurant do not have a inalienable right to serve trans-fats you do not have an inalienable right to consume trans-fats. These types of legislation do not in any legal way violate you rights, legally they must simply prove it is rational for the ban to exist. Which brings me to:<BR/><BR/>e.g skateboarding), or seeing certain movies (too violent), or reading certain books ('promotes unhealthy lifestyles')? <BR/><BR/>Skateboarding- nothing<BR/>Movies and books- the bill of rights<BR/>Can’t see the difference let me give a brief legal lesion, this law and skate boarding are not issues invoking the constitutional rights and fall under rational scrutiny movies and book fall under strict scrutiny the two levels of scrutiny do not set precedent for each other, to suggest this we lead to book banning ignores how the legal system is deign and makes your argument look silly to those who understand how the legal system works. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Also, the FDA has banned safer substance with less evidenced before no one made uproar about those. (Mainly because they were products that the lobby of powerful industries did want see hitting the market) Is this the best use of the city researches, No there much better way to improve the health of it citizens but some time you have to take what you can get. <BR/><BR/>“A single study found a very weak correlation between trans fat and blood lipid levels. A handful of other studies have found very weak correlations to trans-fat and heart disease, though many other studies have found no such correlations.”<BR/><BR/>Wrong their have been many studies that have found a strong correlation between trans and coronary heart and very few have found in non link as you say, I fact I have only found a single study in my 3 year studying undergraduate nutrition that even begins to the refute the damage trans fats do. In fact I have an exam covering cardo. dz. tomorrow please do inform me of how every nutrition textbook in print is wrong.<BR/><BR/>Note: this is written by a student this does not constitute nutritional advice if you need help with diet consulate a registered dietician.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165986145050670132006-12-12T23:02:00.000-06:002006-12-12T23:02:00.000-06:00What is known: HDL causes plaques on artery walls....What is known: HDL causes plaques on artery walls. People with higher LDL but the same HDL have less plaque.<BR/><BR/>NO ONE knows how LDL reduces plaque formation. It is correlation, not causation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165901947812309892006-12-11T23:39:00.000-06:002006-12-11T23:39:00.000-06:00Another minor scientific point- it is not true tha...Another minor scientific point- it is not true that trans fats are unnatural. A bit less than 10% of the fat in butter, for instance, is trans fat. It is believed to be produced when bacteria metabolize fatty acids in the digestive tracts of cows- it is a natural hydrogenation process- and so trans fats show up in milk and other dairy products.<BR/><BR/>There is reason to believe that humans have been exposed to some trans fats for a long time, and probably can handle small amounts.<BR/><BR/>I don't mean to imply that butter's trans-fats are identical to those in, for instance, hydrogenated soybean oil. The lipid profiles in soybeans and grass are different, and the hydrogenation conditions are vastly different. It just isn't the case, however, that trans fats don't occur in nature.<BR/><BR/>It is a point that generally needs to be made: one need not be hyperbolic (e.g. "trans fats are poison") to make the important policy arguments about the wisdom of consuming industrially produced trans fats. Sometimes, accuracy is sacrificed on the altar of advocacy. As I see it, this causes both science and policy unnecessary damage.Robin St. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18079748114787155061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165774171391004722006-12-10T12:09:00.000-06:002006-12-10T12:09:00.000-06:00figleaf: "The proposal was to *replace* trans-fats...figleaf: "The proposal was to *replace* trans-fats with ordinarily hydrogenated ones, not eliminate fat at all."<BR/><BR/>Well, since I didn't say that, your tirade is idiotic.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165771096752345972006-12-10T11:18:00.000-06:002006-12-10T11:18:00.000-06:00Geez, Ann, you're as lazy as Glenn.The proposal wa...Geez, Ann, you're as lazy as Glenn.<BR/><BR/>The proposal was to *replace* trans-fats with ordinarily hydrogenated ones, not eliminate fat at all.<BR/><BR/>I think you saw this as an opportunity to thump the nanny state (which, in this case exists only between your ears) and then, further compromising your conservative integrity you lazily lit upon... prejudice against fat people as the purported reason for the NYC decision?<BR/><BR/>Whatever.<BR/><BR/>If that was really what you were worried about cheer up! There'll still be lots of fat people in NYC after the trans-fat ban. There'll just be somewhat fewer fat people having heart attacks on the city's social-services dime.<BR/><BR/>(To further insult your self-inflicted injury, Dr. Atkins correctly advocated drinking lard lattés and smoking bacon cigarettes as a great way to lose weight but he believed trans fats were unhealthy and advised dieters to avoid it. I bring this up because you cited the guy so he's your authority.)figleafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01440982008394316977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165761885686772642006-12-10T08:44:00.000-06:002006-12-10T08:44:00.000-06:00The nursery rhyme police - parents to take lessons...<A HREF="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23374380-details/The+nursery+rhyme+police+-+parents+to+take+lessons+in+reading+and+singing/article.do" REL="nofollow">The nursery rhyme police - parents to take lessons in reading and singing</A><BR/>This Is London.co.uk<BR/>10/12/06<BR/><BR/><I>Parents could be forced to go to special classes to learn to sing their children nursery rhymes, a minister said.<BR/><BR/>Those who fail to read stories or sing to their youngsters threaten their children's future and the state must put them right, Children's Minister Beverley Hughes said.<BR/><BR/>Their children's well-being is at risk 'unless we act', she declared.<BR/><BR/>And Mrs Hughes said the state would train a new 'parenting workforce' to ensure parents who fail to do their duty with nursery rhymes are found and 'supported'.</I>KCFleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124201866124646626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165759414272741712006-12-10T08:03:00.000-06:002006-12-10T08:03:00.000-06:00Esmay and Brezny miss the larger point while scori...Esmay and Brezny miss the larger point while scoring small ones.<BR/><BR/>1. Saying "this stuff is poison" is argument by hysteria. Trans fat is not poison by any scientific understanding of that word. At most it can be considered "not good for you in daily use", but it cannot be argued that eating out once per week and consuming trans fat is unhealthy, because know one knows this or will ever know it.<BR/><BR/>2. The NYC government could just as easily have required the foods containing trans fat to label them as such in menus. Unintrusive, and it permits the market to decide whether or not people want this as a health benefit all, none, or some of the time.<BR/><BR/>3. Nanny staters do not <I>want</I> people to have a choice, they want to decide <I>this is best for you, because I know better</I>. They have also decided for us that longevity is a public good, beyond individual preference. I don't remember acquiescing that choice to the State. Do you? Too late.<BR/><BR/>4. Once the State can control what you eat "because it's unhealthy", what is to stop them from banning "unhealthy" recreation that has a high accident rate (e.g skateboarding), or seeing certain movies (too violent), or reading certain books ('promotes unhealthy lifestyles')? Well, there is no way to prevent it. (In England, it's now been declared mandatory that parents sing certain lullabies to their kids, or face punishment by the State. I kid you not.)<BR/><BR/>5. Sorry Mortimer, but discussion of the economics of saving lives is <I>not</I> out of bounds or merely done by HMOs. The beloved NHS and Canada's Medicare calculate this all the time when deciding for their citizens which therapies would be available. You <I>are</I> being hysterical.KCFleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124201866124646626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165722192851274662006-12-09T21:43:00.000-06:002006-12-09T21:43:00.000-06:00True libertarians eat at home, growing their own f...<B>True libertarians eat at home, growing their own food just to make sure.</B><BR/><BR/>Not after <I>Raich</I>. Right, Simon?Mortimer Breznyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16964027337144379262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165720765158088082006-12-09T21:19:00.000-06:002006-12-09T21:19:00.000-06:00ScienceDave:Thanks for your post. Expert opinion i...ScienceDave:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your post. Expert opinion is one of the few reasons I read blogs.altoids1306https://www.blogger.com/profile/01513456215095176970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165718849755865272006-12-09T20:47:00.000-06:002006-12-09T20:47:00.000-06:00"I don't particularly like the smoking bans, altho...<I>"I don't particularly like the smoking bans, although I always supported regulations requiring restaurants to have aggressive ventilation and other things to keep it away from those who find it offensive." (Dean Esmay)</I><BR/><BR/>I agree, I would have preferred another solution. But here again where pragmatism comes into play. NYC bars and eateries come in all shapes and sizes, accomodating anywhere from a dozen to several hundred patrons. Most of them are at the smaller end of the scale, and asking them to have TRULY non-smoking areas (i.e., not just no one smoking in them, but no smoke in them at all) was impractical and impossible (if that's not redundant). Bloombarg either had to have no restrictions, or complete restrictions. He made the right choice.<BR/><BR/>I was on another blog with another version of this absurd argument. This one went on about the 'government Nazis' restricting cel phone use in cars. 'Who has the right to tell me what I can do in my own car?' They bellowed. 'What about all the moms dealing with screaming kids and putting on makeup in cars? Are they next?' Fact is, cel phones became a target because it's a straightforward rule to enforce - either you are using a cel phone or you're not. This gives cops a tool to use to stop a car and insure that the driver is paying proper attention.<BR/><BR/>As far as what right the government has to stop a distracted driver from his/herself: None, if you like. But what about protecting those screaming kids in the back? What about protecting ME from that driver? The 'libertarians' beating their breasts over this have forgotten that their rights don't include depriving someone else of their life.<BR/><BR/>In terms of trans fats, Bloomberg's rule will join a host of other health regulations governing restaurants. All of which the risible Althouse should want to repeal as well. After all, the marketplace is perfectly capable of sorting out which restaurants give their customers salmonella and which do not. And if it takes a customer 20 years to discover that an eatery (by now (s)he doesn't know which one) has given him/her intestinal cancer, well, that too is the marketplace in action. True libertarians eat at home, growing their own food just to make sure.Jeff Fariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311004609431680032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165714445736600362006-12-09T19:34:00.000-06:002006-12-09T19:34:00.000-06:00Uh, Ann, I think what's really going on is that tr...Uh, Ann, I think what's really going on is that trans fats are unnatural, unnecessary, and terribly unhealthy. It's like if the government decided to start putting tiny amounts of cyanide in the water supply and you said that they shouldn't stop just because liberal nanny-staters don't like seeing people with paralyzed limbs.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08962290643747011937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165710701089700802006-12-09T18:31:00.000-06:002006-12-09T18:31:00.000-06:00On the Atkins diet, you're eating almost pure prot...On the Atkins diet, you're eating almost pure protein and fat. You can consume red meat, fish (including shellfish), fowl, and regular cheese (not "diet" cheese, cheese spreads, or whey cheeses). You can cook with butter, have mayo with your tuna, and put olive oil on your salads. <BR/>On the other hand, carbs are restricted<BR/>http://www.webmd.com/content/article/92/101976.htm<BR/><BR/>A great diet, btw. Not only did I lost weight, but all my lipid profiles improved and my blood sugar dropped dramatically.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17909397859093057086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165710356494959572006-12-09T18:25:00.000-06:002006-12-09T18:25:00.000-06:00I am a chemist that used to work in food industry ...I am a chemist that used to work in food industry making hydrogenated oils. There was a lot of buzz 10 years ago- the studies had been appearing that said trans-fat is dangerous, and we were thinking about how to make hydrogenated oil without producing trans fats. I won't bore you with the chemistry, but the trans forms of fats are lower in energy and are thermodynamically favored when and if the fat molecules rearrange, so it is a challenge to hydrogenate oils without having them do this. It's like rolling down hill.<BR/><BR/>We figured out a handful of ways to do it. Some were too expensive, some used used catalysts that we feared might be dangerous. Ultimately we figured out how to use just the right conditions. And so you can hydrogenate oils without producing trans fats. It takes control and finesse, but even these things are eventually easy and cheap.<BR/><BR/>Some companies (Monsanto comes to mind) genetically engineered soybeans to produce more saturated fat (hydrogenation converts unsaturated fats to saturated fats.) We could get shortening-type fat by cooling the oil and collecting the crystals that fell out. There are lots of political issues with GMOs too, but the processes are all natural, if you don't mind genetic modification. People do, though, and I'm not sure where this went.<BR/><BR/>My point is that we were all over this even though most people in the industry were skeptical that there would be strong evidence that trans fats are harmful, as soon as the first indications of trouble started. It was worth it to have these techniques in reserve if the political winds started blowing against trans fats. It cost more, at first, and there is not much profit in vegetable oil and shortening to begin with, a few cents a pound for the producer. But if people want it, and now it can be done without charging too much of a premium. <BR/><BR/>I left the edible oil industry and work in R and D far away from food now, but I think the market worked pretty well at the source end of the production stream. I am uncertain whether trans fats are all that bad or not- but I know that it is unecessary to consume them, and I don't, and my family doesn't.Robin St. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18079748114787155061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165707092135240602006-12-09T17:31:00.000-06:002006-12-09T17:31:00.000-06:00Atkins is about eating protein, not fat.Atkins is about eating protein, not fat.paul a'bargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08854004347728185047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165705733749009862006-12-09T17:08:00.000-06:002006-12-09T17:08:00.000-06:00Mortimer: "And we don't count the savings of peopl...<I>Mortimer: "And we don't count the savings of people dying from preventable diseases as a benefit because that's fucking sick."<BR/><BR/>Ann: You're missing the point, and reasoning through hysteria. The point was that those who want the ban are winning support by making arguments about economics that don't seem to be true. There does remain a question whether we out[sic] to act to save people from the consequences of their own choices. If I say we shouldn't, that doesn't mean I don't care if people suffer and die. Those who go in big for controlling individuals sure do love to compliment themselves for their humanity.</I><BR/><BR/>If I were to call your argument hysterical, I'd have to endure a feminist rant about the <I>her</I>story of medicine and photos of vaginas with chompers, so hurling that straw-woman in front of the train tracks is a bit hypocritical. Not to mention inconsistent, especially since male doctors who called women hysterical for expressing legitimate concerns about their health were the ones suppressing autonomy. But to continue my train of thought...<BR/><BR/>The proponents of the polio vaccine think that public health is important. If people are vaccinated, they will be healthier and will be alive to exercise their autonomy. And public health costs go down, because the polio vaccine is cheaper than footing the bill for a nation of polio sufferers and the loss to productivity that results. The pro-health argument is pro-life, pro-autonomy, and pro-savings, whether it advocates in favor of a polio vaccine or a trans-fats ban.<BR/><BR/>Your argument, on the other hand, is anti-autonomy, anti-life, and questionably pro-savings. It is anti-autonomy because dead people cannot exercise autonomy. It is anti-life because it opposes taking reasonable preventive steps that we know beat back death. And its savings component is spurious because dead people are not productive and incredibly obese and diseased people are not as productive as they would otherwise be. There is no guarantee that the deadweight loss will outweigh the savings in pension plans and so forth. <BR/><BR/>It seems you would oppose the polio vaccine because it raises average longevity. My reply to that -- "that's sick!" -- is not hysteria: it's noting that some arguments should be out-of-bounds in public discourse. Not healing people because letting them die makes moolah is the rationale of a particularly nasty HMO. Most people find that morally repugnant; are most people hysterical?Mortimer Breznyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16964027337144379262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165702743699479952006-12-09T16:19:00.000-06:002006-12-09T16:19:00.000-06:00A single study found a very weak correlation betwe...A single study found a very weak correlation between trans fat and blood lipid levels. A handful of other studies have found very weak correlations to trans-fat and heart disease, though many other studies have found no such correlations.<BR/><BR/>This isn't about science, or health. It's about power and money.<BR/><BR/>(Trans fats are not a recent invention; they have, in fact, been around for almost a hundred years. If they were poison, as some assert, there would be volumes of evidence for this. There simply isn't.<BR/><BR/>I predict that whatever alternatives to trans-fat that companies in New York City, or elsewhere, come up with will, in short order, be attacked as unhealthy, with accompanying "scientific studies" [which end up showing no such thing.])Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04450897654318345683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165701887416320582006-12-09T16:04:00.000-06:002006-12-09T16:04:00.000-06:00From William Saletan's article:Every restaurant as...From William Saletan's article:<BR/><BR/><I>Every restaurant association that testified against New York's ban pointed out that on aggregate, if not ounce for ounce, saturated fats are more harmful than trans fats. This was supposed to be an argument against the ban. But once you accept the ban, it becomes an argument for targeting saturated fats, too.</I><BR/><BR/>This man is a complete idiot. Ban saturated fats? You want to ban meat? Good luck. Saletan, meet reality.<BR/><BR/><I>And that argument about how much money fat people are costing us? I say it's bogus...</I><BR/><BR/>Well, if we privatize Medicare and Social Security, we'll find out, won't we?altoids1306https://www.blogger.com/profile/01513456215095176970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165700645819474722006-12-09T15:44:00.000-06:002006-12-09T15:44:00.000-06:00Ann,My response, if you're interested: http://www....Ann,<BR/><BR/>My response, if you're interested: http://www.thepoliticalpitbull.com/2006/12/trans_fat.phpGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15906805436129003411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165699519798312042006-12-09T15:25:00.000-06:002006-12-09T15:25:00.000-06:00the pooka said, But wait! TFs take the fatties out...the pooka said, <I>But wait! TFs take the fatties out of the gene pool!</I><BR/><BR/>Who said they didn't pop out offspring first? Maybe that's how they got started on the path to obesity...couldn't lose the baby weight.<BR/><BR/>See, TFs don't kill you fast enough; it's not ebola. They take a long time to kill. Plenty o' time to knock out a few babies.<BR/><BR/>BTW...pomegranates (fruit, juice, pills) suck the plaque out of your arteries. Thought I'd share this for the use of anyone who might have a concern in this area.kentuckylizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08110491371985845560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165699193803464832006-12-09T15:19:00.000-06:002006-12-09T15:19:00.000-06:00Trans fats are dangerous for everyone, not just fa...Trans fats are dangerous for everyone, not just fat people.<BR/><BR/>If this were about fat people, Bloomberg would have regulated the number of kcalories restaurants could serve! He would have eliminated vending machines and bakeries and the nice sweet things at Starbucks. Isn't NYC into fashionable cupcakes nowadays?<BR/><BR/>To me, what is odd is that New York City is pretending to be the FDA. If trans fats are truly dangerous for everyone, why isn't the FDA taking action and not just leaving it up to various urban governments?<BR/><BR/>A good explanation in plain English about trans fats can be found...Walter Willett, Harvard School of Public Health, nutrition section. I learned about the chemistry of it this summer but that's too technical for most folks.<BR/><BR/>I was trans fat free before trans fat free was cool. LOLkentuckylizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08110491371985845560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165698632171645062006-12-09T15:10:00.000-06:002006-12-09T15:10:00.000-06:00The purpose of banning trans fats is enable people...The purpose of banning trans fats is enable people to have longer and healthier lives.<BR/><BR/>Married people live longer and healthier than singles so the government should ban divorce and mandate all singles get hitched. <BR/><BR/>Republicans live longer and healthier than Democrats so the government should ban the Democratic Party and provide every citizen with a membership in the Republican Party.<BR/><BR/>People who drink moderately live longer and healthier than teatotallers and heavy drinkers so ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165697759868218092006-12-09T14:55:00.000-06:002006-12-09T14:55:00.000-06:00Amen to Dean Esmay, by the way. I remember this sa...Amen to Dean Esmay, by the way. I remember this same 'libertarian' argument against the 'Nazis' in NYC government who were going to ban smoking in public bars and restaurants a short time ago. Now, Bloomberg is a hero for championing it, and hallelujah.<BR/><BR/>Cigarettes are poison. Lead is poison. Transfat is poison. Ridding the public environment of them (I don't want to ask my waiter EVERY TIME I EAT OUT if my order contains trans fat, OK? He may not know. No one may know.) is, as Esmay correctly points out, GOOD PUBLIC POLICY.<BR/><BR/>Honest to God what an idiotic post.Jeff Fariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311004609431680032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165697457466571992006-12-09T14:50:00.000-06:002006-12-09T14:50:00.000-06:00ada,How about these folks, who were mentioned in t...ada,<BR/><BR/>How about these folks, who were mentioned in the article? http://www.publichealthadvocacy.org/<BR/>The article mentioned that these "experts" influenced their decision. They are supported by grants and I would imagine our tax dollars--and I'm sure their "experts" are well compensated.<BR/><BR/>They advocate for legislative change according to their beliefs. IOW, they tell our elected officials what to do, bypassing us, the electorate, entirely.PatCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08920623662477828662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165697121219188592006-12-09T14:45:00.000-06:002006-12-09T14:45:00.000-06:00"I simply do not believe that the so-called health...<I>"I simply do not believe that the so-called health side is really composed of people who are solicitous about everyone else's health. I can't prove it..."</I><BR/><BR/>That's right - you can't prove it, and you should have shown a little discipline and integrity rather than write yourself a license to spew allegations. Hey, I can't prove it, but my intuition tells me that Ann Althouse runs a sweatshop on the side, has sex with minors, is poisoning the environment, and steals from her employer.<BR/><BR/>You're also looking in the wrong place. Not only don't people's mixed motivations for doing things matter (we ALL have them - this means, you too), they are unprovable and rarely are they legally actionable. The right place to look is in economic motivation. That IS demonstrable in court, and actionable. So, is someone with an economic stake in the elimination of trans fat secretly funding the movement to eliminate it? That would be worth discussing.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, perhaps you'd like to crusade to put the lead back in gasoline, since your infallible instincts tell you that the real motivation behind THAT legislation was liberals' hatred of oil companies.<BR/><BR/>This is the problem with people who get regular Insta-traffic: They think any fool idea of theirs is worth broadcasting.Jeff Fariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311004609431680032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1165696423813273752006-12-09T14:33:00.000-06:002006-12-09T14:33:00.000-06:00Dean: So the new rule is that processed food isn't...Dean: So the new rule is that processed food isn't food? Suddenly, it's poison because labs and chemists got involved? At the end of this slippery slope we'll be stuck eating only raw organic food.<BR/><BR/>Mortimer: "And we don't count the savings of people dying from preventable diseases as a benefit because that's fucking sick."<BR/><BR/>You're missing the point, and reasoning through hysteria. The point was that those who want the ban are winning support by making arguments about economics that don't seem to be true. There does remain a question whether we out to act to save people from the consequences of their own choices. If I say we shouldn't, that doesn't mean I don't care if people suffer and die. Those who go in big for controlling individuals sure do love to compliment themselves for their humanity.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.com