tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post1148213703545310898..comments2024-03-29T05:01:52.320-05:00Comments on Althouse: "The family of an 11-year-old boy killed by a bear in Utah in 2007 was awarded nearly $2 million in damages...."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger106125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52880615354233701052011-05-11T15:07:11.866-05:002011-05-11T15:07:11.866-05:00I don't understand the logic of most of the co...I don't understand the logic of most of the comments here: how did the government CAUSE the death? At what point did most people accept this math: failure to prevent=cause? If I cross the center line and hit someone driving the other way I cause the collision. If I see someone driving on the left hand side of the road and I don't warn the person coming from the opposite direction I don't cause the collision, do I?Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07569414109093037790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86685459050608460662011-05-11T15:07:11.867-05:002011-05-11T15:07:11.867-05:00I don't understand the logic of most of the co...I don't understand the logic of most of the comments here: how did the government CAUSE the death? At what point did most people accept this math: failure to prevent=cause? If I cross the center line and hit someone driving the other way I cause the collision. If I see someone driving on the left hand side of the road and I don't warn the person coming from the opposite direction I don't cause the collision, do I?Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07569414109093037790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-33136165200151084812011-05-11T13:15:42.668-05:002011-05-11T13:15:42.668-05:00Everybody isn't born in a forest and suckled b...Everybody isn't born in a forest and suckled by a she wolf. Until the Marine Corps got a hold of me, I was a NYC kid who thought Central Park was the wilderness. You assume that these people should have known all the "rules" of the wilderness. Why? Perhaps they were nothing more then weekend campers who just wanted to see some of the wilderness THEY'RE TAX DOLLARS SUPPORT. I guess the could have stayed home and left it to all the Daniel Boones out there, but those crazy folks actual wanted to see some of that nature they've heard so much about. What they should have had was a sign telling you you must report into the Ranger station before you set up camp. At that point you get advised of the rules, and sent on your way. Either that or have on your person, the official "rule" book,available from the Forest Service. At that point the Forest Service will have done all they could, and the taxpayers will be off the hook.mdgileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08417311636210312912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28951423916084930262011-05-11T09:41:48.923-05:002011-05-11T09:41:48.923-05:00So people are clear; there was a bear attack 12 ho...<i>So people are clear; there was a bear attack 12 hours earlier at exactly the same camp site. Not in the general area, but at the same place. The park rangers failed to inform visitors as they entered or them specifically.</i><br /><br />This story drives me nuts. People who have never been camping in a wilderness area have no idea of what it is like and are making judgments as if these people were in Disneyland or some sort of controlled environment.<br /><br />1. They were camping in an undeveloped area. NOT a cute little campground with paved roads, concrete picnic tables, bathrooms or ANY other amenities. The camping area was at the edge of a dirt road in the WILDERNESS. It wasn't a DESIGNATED or official campground.<br /><br />2. If there was a bear attack/incident previously, unless the forest rangers were able to follow that particular bear around the miles of wilderness, there is no way to know that it was the SAME bear. Clue people: there are many bears in the woods. So even IF they were able to follow the bear around to try to trap it.....12 hours is a very short time and it is almost impossible to track a bear without dogs.<br /><br />3. When you enter a National Forest or many National Parks.....PEOPLE>>>>>>it isn't Marine World an amusement park. There are many ways to get into the area. There may not be any rangers around when you enter. There often is not a cutsie kiosk and flight attendant to guide you to your campsite, which in this case was just some place at the end or side of a dirt road.<br /><br />The Park or National Forest Headquarters is often located far far away from the actual forest or park. Miles away. If the campers had gone to that headquarters and asked they might have gotten some specific information.<br /><br />4. There were signs all over the place telling people about the danger of bears. Not just this one bear but ALL bears.<br /><br />5. They violated the basic safety rules of camping. They slept with food!!!!! And that makes YOU food. It is like hanging a bag of chum around your neck and then go swimming with the sharks.<br /><br />I have some sympathy because they lost their child. <br /><br />However, I have no sympathy for STUPID people and these parents qualify in spadesDust Bunny Queenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13341429444562280127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-25536946346382597632011-05-11T09:18:10.372-05:002011-05-11T09:18:10.372-05:00"No, I haven't. And I assume Mr. Ives did..."No, I haven't. And I assume Mr. Ives didn't either before his death. I imagine one of the purposes of the United States Forest Service is to warn ignoramuses like myself of possible dangers... like dangerous bears (the worst kind of bears)."<br /><br />I don't work for the park service but I will take it upon myself to inform you that bears are dangerous animals. I would warn anyone going into bear country to understand that bears are not your friends. They have the capacity to maim and kill. It is wise to travel with bear spray at the least and bear spray and heat optimally. Cougars will also eat you or simply kill you for fun.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08258681007386089907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-17886669422667441062011-05-11T07:18:36.486-05:002011-05-11T07:18:36.486-05:00So people are clear; there was a bear attack 12 ho...<i>So people are clear; there was a bear attack 12 hours earlier at exactly the same camp site. Not in the general area, but at the same place. The park rangers failed to inform visitors as they entered or them specifically.</i><br /><br />In that case, I'm glad they won.<br /><br /><i>Doesn't every camper know not to bring food into the tent?</i><br /><br />I didn't know that. But then, I'm not a camper. (Though I'd like to be.)Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-50883681423759676082011-05-10T15:32:45.133-05:002011-05-10T15:32:45.133-05:00Only $1.95 million? Make that Trillions and it wo...Only $1.95 <i>million</i>? Make that Trillions and it would teach them a lesson.<br /><br />On second thought, probably not.ASThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14591247136037620408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70988756290770153322011-05-10T15:28:58.099-05:002011-05-10T15:28:58.099-05:00Dale Kimball was one of my law professors. Intere...Dale Kimball was one of my law professors. Interestingly 65% is near the percentage of Utah that is owned by the federal government.ASThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14591247136037620408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64671548470533766992011-05-10T14:20:57.144-05:002011-05-10T14:20:57.144-05:00Move along...disregard the double negative. Nothi...Move along...disregard the double negative. Nothing to see here...Scott Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02459388007426664813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-21812259001856398502011-05-10T14:19:34.529-05:002011-05-10T14:19:34.529-05:00A minor point, but does anyone know if the damages...A minor point, but does anyone know if the damages payment would come out the Forest Service budget?Calypso Factohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01455217189407301218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86263405490621412412011-05-10T14:19:04.113-05:002011-05-10T14:19:04.113-05:00It's like they can't admit that animals ca...<i>It's like they can't admit that animals can be dangerous.</i><br /><br />It's the same mentality that doesn't believe that Clovis Man didn't wipe out a shitload of large land mammals in North America, but does believe that the CIA created the Black Plague back in the 1340's.Scott Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02459388007426664813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-75279892414025623362011-05-10T14:14:27.038-05:002011-05-10T14:14:27.038-05:00What really bothers me about the park's behavi...What really bothers me about the park's behavior is that it seems based on the prevalent "we can live in harmony with nature" ethic so prevalent today. <br /><br />If there are bear attacks, they should close the park to rube city folk campers, or have a camp in a fenced area. <br /><br />It's like they can't admit that animals can be dangerous.PatCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08920623662477828662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-38396479250874204442011-05-10T13:58:28.182-05:002011-05-10T13:58:28.182-05:00These people, the parents of the dead kid are real...These people, the parents of the dead kid are really something.... quite a piece of work.<br /><br /><i>"This situation could have been prevented had they simply taped off the area," Rebecca Ives said</i><br /><br />WTF?. Do they think this is CSI Crime Scene and that some police tape would stop a hungry bear from attacking?<br /><br />NOW....they want to jump on the victim bandwagon....<i> "They suggested the federal government create a more instantaneous alert system which they dubbed a "Sam Alert."</i><br /> <br />Perhaps a robot with some twirling red lights, sirens and waving arms....."alert alert danger Will Robbins.....animals are in the woods...run away, run away!!!"<br /><br />Meanwhile, sonicfrog thinks that there are Gate Attendants in National Forests, like flight attendants who show you to your seat and make sure you are properly buckled in. Perhaps they gave out the fatal candy bar?<br /><br />/facepalmDust Bunny Queenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13341429444562280127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-87973683757466975232011-05-10T13:45:09.838-05:002011-05-10T13:45:09.838-05:00Crunch Frog: Just lovely.
But on the bright side, ...Crunch Frog: Just lovely.<br />But on the bright side, there's no need to strain to invent a name for the region. IIRC there's a country near India that has this situation - they call it the "Tribal Area".<br />Every country should get one.Fred Drinkwaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01619653106362906811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4683748389095662082011-05-10T13:27:31.193-05:002011-05-10T13:27:31.193-05:00I imagine one of the purposes of the United States...<i>I imagine one of the purposes of the United States Forest Service is to warn ignoramuses like myself of possible dangers... like dangerous bears (the worst kind of bears).</i><br /><br />In the general sense, they do (their website, at their headquarters and at the trailhead), but you, as an ignoramus hiker/camper need to know what your getting into and plan accordingly. If you're in bear area, it might be in your best interest to stop in for some updated information.Salhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01508252553364823213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-65786291877870067712011-05-10T13:24:52.563-05:002011-05-10T13:24:52.563-05:00For you, perhaps, but I haven't ever found it ...<i>For you, perhaps, but I haven't ever found it necessary.</i><br /><br />Then you've never had a strange person, acting strangely, approach your camp site after dark. Likewise, you've probably never suffered an animal attack.Scott Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02459388007426664813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-49947736595123098682011-05-10T13:21:12.431-05:002011-05-10T13:21:12.431-05:00Being armed when you're a day's hike from ...<i>Being armed when you're a day's hike from your car and out of cell range is simple common sense precaution.</i><br /><br />For you, perhaps, but I haven't ever found it necessary.kjbehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02205930548533839170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-43331298633845459872011-05-10T13:18:45.684-05:002011-05-10T13:18:45.684-05:00What a pack of nonsense. People have to be warned...What a pack of nonsense. People have to be warned that the outdoors has dangerous animals?<br /><br />This is the kind of nonsense that make people disgusted with the courts.Robinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05699652902909032781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-80324602605408050972011-05-10T13:17:22.065-05:002011-05-10T13:17:22.065-05:00I'm betting that Gosse made the decision that ...<i>I'm betting that Gosse made the decision that gate attendants NOT inform incoming campers...</i><br /><br />National Forests aren't gated like National Parks. You fill out a trip plan, pay a small fee and go. Unless they stopped at the regional NF office it'd be very unlikely they'd even see any NF staff.kjbehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02205930548533839170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-17844895925929564622011-05-10T12:45:03.173-05:002011-05-10T12:45:03.173-05:00@ET1492
"Can you imagine the outrage if a ci...@ET1492<br /><br />"Can you imagine the outrage if a city government put signs up in some areas saying "Beware. This is a dangerous neighborhood. Enter at your own risk."<br /><br />Do some cities do that?"<br /><br />There are now signs at the entrances to the national parks on our southern border to not enter because of all the Maxican drug gangs that have set up shop there.<br /><br />Nothing to see folks, move along.<br /><br />wv: matiret - smallish, not so famous mountain in SwitzerlandCrunchy Froghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12817138913728820310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-46497618445055335042011-05-10T12:39:17.802-05:002011-05-10T12:39:17.802-05:00I was in a building with 40 children in a resident...I was in a building with 40 children in a residential/industrial area 40 miles from DC, and a huge black bear ran through the playyard minutes after the toddlers had gone inside.<br /><br />There are too many damn bears. Pa Ingalls was right -- bears are for killing. They're our enemies. I grew up on a farm in PA, and now we're too afraid to camp or walk on our own property that had previously been bear-free for 200 years. It's called civilization. <br /><br />How many children are acceptable losses?Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13508187195788782780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-55926234351529117252011-05-10T12:33:41.296-05:002011-05-10T12:33:41.296-05:00Ok, I get the argument that the US park service gu...Ok, I get the argument that the US park service guy failed to warn them about the bear. I don't know if I agree with it, but I understand the argument. 65% federal responsibility: check.<br /><br />I get that the parents were at least somewhat to blame. 10% parental responsibility: check.<br /><br />But where the heck does the 25% state government responsibility come from? There's no indication in the article of the state government or its employees doing anything wrong at all.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-10891506306850544072011-05-10T12:31:31.942-05:002011-05-10T12:31:31.942-05:00I usually carry pepper spray if hiking or camping ...I usually carry pepper spray if hiking or camping in bear country. It is much easier to hit a bear with pepper spray than a handgun (plus my handgun is not powerful enough to reliably stop a bear).<br /><br />The national park rangers tend to be soft on the problem bears. They don't try hard enough to instill fear in problem bears (bears that hang around a campsite). Any bear at a campsite needs to be hit with pepper spray at a minimum.<br /><br />A couple of years ago I was at Yosemite at Glacier Point when a mama bear (ear tagged as a problem bear) and her two cubs got between my wife and I. <br /><br />The park rangers' Yosemite newspaper complained that relocating these problem bears was a waste of their time because the bears kept coming back.Steve Kochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13077530042599697923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-18673658757219123442011-05-10T12:17:31.365-05:002011-05-10T12:17:31.365-05:00That a bear attack occurred at the same campsite a...<i>That a bear attack occurred at the same campsite and the bear was still on the loose is a salient fact that the rangers should have alerted campers of.</i><br /><br />That is an important point and the government or the managers of the campsite DID have an obligation to warn people of that event.<br /><br />Put up a sign or something in a prominent place and hope that people aren't too stupid to read, understand it and take the proper precautions. (I doubt it would work. People still will think that the forest is Disneyland.)<br /><br /><i> If we sue the Feds for not capturing, relocating a dangerous bear</i><br /><br />Perhaps we should sue the government for relocating the dangerous bear in our neighborhood.<br /><br />How about suing the government for their catch and release program with the dangerous illegals who are growing pot and operating meth labs in the same forest locations as the nasty bears? At least the bears aren't armed with automatic weapons.Dust Bunny Queenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13341429444562280127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-63800313426634293642011-05-10T11:59:13.803-05:002011-05-10T11:59:13.803-05:00That a bear attack occurred at the same campsite a...That a bear attack occurred at the same campsite and the bear was still on the loose is a salient fact that the rangers should have alerted campers of. It was a higher risk than normal situation...lets say I am sure the ranger herself had no plans to do overnight camping there herself..and safety information was not passed on to others as regs required of her.<br /><br />======================<br />Tradguy - "If this case is good, then what about the hundreds of crimes committed by Hispanic illegals that Holder and Obama are inviting to cross the so called border and then refuse to deport when apprehended?"<br /><br />That is a fine point, IMO. If we sue the Feds for not capturing, relocating a dangerous bear...what about whan a dangerous illegal they refuse to deport goes on to harm US citizens?Cedarfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00602418702398818596noreply@blogger.com