"Data is scarce: No state has piloted a change, and researchers can’t remove people’s benefits for a study because of the arbitrary harm it might cause. Lisa Harnack, a professor at the University of Minnesota’s School of Public Health, found a way to test the concept by finding people who were eligible for SNAP but not enrolled. She created a 'SNAP-like program' that gave some people normal SNAP benefits and gave others similar benefits but excluded soda (participants could still buy whatever other food they wanted with their own money). Her first study found lower calorie intake and improved nutrition among the people who couldn’t purchase soda with their benefits, but her follow-up study did not.... [Another] study found it would probably reduce rates of obesity — but even so, [the researcher said]... 'If you try to solve this problem using SNAP as a lever, so only SNAP people are impacted by it, what we’re likely to do is just increase stigma for people who are trying to make ends meet.'"
From "Should Food Stamps Pay for Soda? Colorado and Texas are among the states aiming to change what food and drink can be bought with SNAP benefits" (NYT).
65 comments:
Would adding tobacco and alcohol to the SNAP program's allowable purchases have a positive or negative effect on the recipient's health? Data is likewise scarce. Would academics be unsure about what the effect might be? Would this stigmatize SNAP recipients? I don't think this is all that mysterious.
'If you try to solve this problem using SNAP as a lever, so only SNAP people are impacted by it, what we’re likely to do is just increase stigma for people who are trying to make ends meet.'
This seems incoherent to me. If there is already a stigma attached to using SNAP benefits, how is it increased by people's not being able to buy soda? Are others going to look at their carts, note the lack of soda, and point and laugh?
And, how do you square buying soda with "trying to make ends meet"? Soda is, like, definitionally not a staple - it's a "luxury" good, unnecessary for every single person in the world (in quotes because it seems so silly to call soda a luxury, but it is).
I've been fortunate never to need SNAP. But while I am reflexively agin government nannyism, those are my tax dollars at work, and I don't see how those who do rely on SNAP can possibly benefit from inclusion of what no one disputes are nutritionally null-to-negative products.
"Would adding tobacco and alcohol to the SNAP program's allowable purchases..."
Providing people with food at no expense frees up their money to buy tobacco and alcohol.
Just sayin'.
Why is stigma so bad? It used to be a way to enforce social norms that didn't involve entanglement with law enforcement and that took place early on, like Giuliani's "broken windows" approach that really made a difference.
So, SNAP reduced the stigma of unhealthy diets of people who are trying to make ends meet. It won't be a snap to improve their outlook with the legacy of SNAP, but their lives and welfare are worth the change to mitigate progress.
The disparity of dietary and body fat, and the first-order forcings of inflammatory change where molecules form a concensus of clots.
"...what we’re likely to do is just increase stigma for people who are trying to make ends meet."
Soda, better than that silent killer — "stigma". Which, in the other hand, is not as... uplifting as "stigmata."
Wikipedia: Stigmata (Ancient Greek: στίγματα, plural of στίγμα stigma, 'mark, spot, brand'), in Catholicism, are bodily wounds, scars and pain which appear in locations corresponding to the crucifixion wounds of Jesus Christ: the hands, wrists, feet, near the heart, the head (from the crown of thorns), and back (from carrying the cross and scourging).
Cosmetic surgery. Oh! Snap.
High sugar intake and diabetes are linked to many different maladies contributing to obesity and poor health. More unhealthy people means growing government to deal with dependency on same for healthcare. These “academics” must be kidding us.
"Supplemental Nutrition" is in the name. Soda is not nutritional. Neither are potato chips, Twinkies or ice cream. Not paying for those foods is not a punishment or behavior modification, those items just don't fit the guidelines of the program.
SNAP also doesn't pay for paper plates, trash bags, or a bunch of other things sold at a grocery store.
SNAP is not a gift that our leaders bestow on the unfortunate, but money taken from taxpayers to give to people who can't afford food. Taxpayers deserve to feel like they are doing a good thing, rather than being treated like chumps.
Did government cheese work?
Why not?
I think we should spend $20 million to find out if government cheese would stamp out poverty.
If the Democrats would just give me $1 million, I could explain men to them. And we could spend the other $19 million on our government cheese program.
Also, maybe spend $60 million on the government's obsession with acronyms. WTFIUWA? And if you know what the WTFIUWA program is, you get a check for $1 million dollars.
We need to cap it, though. That's a program could spiral out of control.
The great thing about cheese is that there's a limit to how much cheese you can eat. Try it, you'll see. TTMFC. So government cheese will never spiral out of control. It will just sit there, stinking, and attracting rats. But at least the costs are capped, vis-a-vis the nature of cheese itself.
Cheese, wonderful cheese, but the best cheese, is government cheese.
More government cheese, please!
If all the people on food stamps are lean and hot, from not being able to buy junk food, wouldn't that lower the stigma?
RR
JSM
St Croix: "The great thing about cheese is that there's a limit to how much cheese you can eat."
Assumes facts not in evidence.
Millions of Wisconsinites just said "hold my brandy old-fashioned!"
RR
JSM
"SNAP is not a gift that our leaders bestow on the unfortunate, but money taken from taxpayers to give to people who can't afford food. Taxpayers deserve to feel like they are doing a good thing, rather than being treated like chumps."
Yes. I don't care whether it "works" or not*. It's a statement; this item is unhealthy. That is a good, in and of itself.
* (Nor do I believe you will ever definitely prove whether it works or not; the studies are a waste of money.)
If we could just make other people do what we wanted, everything would be fine...
I'm more worried about the message that sends to government than to poor people.
It would be helpful and more fair if people who got this free assitance had at least a little inconvenience attached like the rest of do with getting money. Who else would still accept their pay check if they didn't have to work and the only downside was you have to avoid certain unhealthful products? Sheese, what are we talking about here?
Supplemental Program Assisting Moderation (SPAM).
Supplemental Cheese Allowance Market (SCAM).
it seems so silly to call soda a luxury, but it is).
-----
IT's cheap calories.
Even/especially for children, sadly...
I wish they could all replace the soda with milk (which still needs to be supplemented by a fuller diet), but not everyone can drink milk in large quantity...
How much better to reform the system so workers all get enough money in earnings to choose the food they need. Not too much, not too little, no restrictions. That would help, but we like the status quo system with big winners... and big losers. So soda for the poor(er) kids it is!
"Academics are unsure if removing soda from SNAP would improve public health."
Academics are stupid untalented people who stayed in school because they couldn't get a real job or do anything anyone else wanted.
"No state has piloted a change"
In May, Nebraska became the first state to be granted such a waiver by the USDA. Effective next year, soda and energy drinks will be ineligible for SNAP purchase.
bagoh20 said...
It would be helpful and more fair if people who got this free assitance had at least a little inconvenience attached like the rest of do with getting money. Who else would still accept their pay check if they didn't have to work and the only downside was you have to avoid certain unhealthful products? Sheese, what are we talking about here?
Food Stamps are one of the biggest drivers of food price inflation.
If you give people money and they do not produce anything to get that money there is more money chasing the same amount of goods.
Over the last decade or so I ballooned up to 240 lbs. Got tired of being overweight so I stopped drinking Cokes, ginger ale, sweet tea etc., I keep it strictly to water and black coffee. 8 months later I'm at 200 lbs having plateaued about 5 lbs over my optimal weight of 195lbs at 6'1". No dieting except staying away from all sugared (real or fake) drinks.
bagoh20 said...
It would be helpful and more fair if people who got this free assitance had at least a little inconvenience attached like the rest of do with getting money. Who else would still accept their pay check if they didn't have to work and the only downside was you have to avoid certain unhealthful products?
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A lot of the people collecting paychecks, especially on the "professional" side aren't working as hard as you think... A lot of people who have fallen into the safety net cannot work, and need help. It's not you, you cannot fathom their lives. It's clear from your writing...
Pray you do not encounter Need in America for real in the dark of night the hungry is resorting to animal tactics to feed himself. That's why a social safety net is good for the whole country... a true net for the needy, not something to manipulate to save money for travel and other luxuries. Not all seniors are needy; not all paid into what they are taking out for themselves and theirs... Beward you don't misjudge if you are setting yourself up as the judge of Others?
There is no doubt that soda has no nutritional value other than the water in it. Why a study?
The late, great Ann Landers once got a letter from somebody complaining about a person using food stamps having a frosted birthday cake in her shopping cart. Ann invited people on food stamps to comment on this. She ran half a dozen replies. One reply: "My daughter had cancer. It was her birthday. I bought a lovely cake. It was the last birthday cake she had. She died six months later." Another letter: "My husband had been out of work for months after his accident. His jaw had been wired shut while the doctors rebuilt his face. He finally was able to have solid food, and I bought a pound of shrimp to celebrate."
I have neighbors who do not have the skills or the cooking equipment to prepare food for themselves properly. I have had the opportunity to help some people learn how to make their grocery dollars/snap go to better nutrition. Be very careful how you judge other people's shopping carts
"Academics are unsure if removing soda from SNAP would improve public health."
If space aliens were spying on our communications and translating our language through context, then based on this example, they would translate “academics” as “idiots”.
Drinking sugar water is bad for adults. But kids like it, and can handle it. I loved HI-c and Hawaiian Punch as a kid. My daughter loved fruit juice. I'm sure poor people are buying it for their kids.
And why shouldn't poor people enjoy themselves. Good Grief.
Hey Grandma - no on here is “judging other people’s shopping carts”. We are discussing whether a government program that uses taxpayer money to allow poor folks to buy healthy, nutritional food should include soda in that rubric. In other words, we are addressing what should be a simple question: do you think soda healthy? If undecided, you must me an “academic”.
Supplemental NUTRITION Assistance Program. It was nice when words meant something.
What’s the stigma of not buying soda? I never buy soda and now I’m afraid I’m going to have to feel bad about myself because of that. If only I understood why
"Drinking sugar water is bad for adults. But kids like it, and can handle it."
"about 35.4% of children aged 2–19 are either overweight or obese, based on 2017–2018 data"
"I never buy soda and now I’m afraid I’m going to have to feel bad about myself because of that."
You could buy the soda and then throw it out when you get home.
"Academics are unsure if removing soda from SNAP would improve public health."
This question is irrelevant to the issue of using tax dollars to buy soda.
Forrest Gump meme--"And just like that, soda became vital for the health of SNAP recipients."
No, Grandma Bee, I have no plan to stop being judgmental. Maybe you and Ann Landers never had a need to tighten your belts, but I do and do not appreciate standing behind people using food stamps or SNAP (especially SNAP, intended for mother and child nutrition) to buy chips, soda, candy, steaks, and other expensive foods. And all the time I have shopped at or worked in a grocery store, I never saw a single SNAP or Food Stamp user looking the least bit embarassed to use them. Far to the contrary: they were the rudest, pushiest, most demanding, and aggressive customers.
What I saw was a whole lot of decent, polite, elderly people toiling at cash registers long past retirement age taking aggro from abusive and usually obese SNAP and Food Stamp users. I cannot be alone in this observation.
I imagine the same attitudinal thrust applies to academics who invent studies like these and expect taxpayers to pay for them.
We never had soda when we were young, unless we were going on a field trip (wrapped in aluminum foil to keep cold) or having a cook out with other family. We weren't fat either.
And people wonder why we don't really trust academics anymore. The fact that sugary soda is bad for you is a fact that can't logically be disputed. Just ask any dentist.
Ann Althouse said...
"What’s the stigma of not buying soda?"
I told my doctor that I was giving up soda and he thought it was a fantastic idea.
It's bad when SNAP recipients can't by giant sodas, but good when Bloomberg bans giant sodas for everyone.
In case you are trying to keep score (but why bother?).
"Be very careful how you judge other people's shopping carts"
If I'm expected to help pay for what's in them, I'll judge other people's shopping carts however I choose.
or buy them...
Good nutrition and nutrition are two different things.
Sugar is a nutrient. It is nutritious.
RCOCEANII: are you willfully blind to the unprecedented rise of type II (lifestyle, not genetic) diabetes among young children to young adults? 1/3 if not more children are now obese, and because of this, type II is skyrocketing among them. By the time they're 30, many will be strapped to chairs on dialysis, which is hell hell on earth, awaiting transplants. Others will be losing their sight and in danger of losing limbs.
I have no love lost for Michelle Obama. But her efforts to combat obesity among children by getting them to exercise was a great program. Too bad she's too busy trying to find herself at various luxury resorts to continue doing this good work. I guess she resents the imposition on her lifestyle.
Ocean: "Drinking sugar water is bad for adults. But kids like it, and can handle it. I loved HI-c and Hawaiian Punch as a kid. My daughter loved fruit juice. "
Back in the days of free-range kids, outdoor recess, everybody at all income levels in some kind of Little League or Pop Warner, rare central HVAC, and other calorie-burning factors, yes, children could handle the sugar. Servings were also smaller: the 2L didn't become common until the 80s. The mere work involved in lugging lots of little glass bottles and steel cans, and the organization needed to remember a bottle/can opener, at least slowed down the speed of chugging.
But now? Especially in the projects or trailer park? Mama keeps you indoors so you don't get shot, and she hooks you up to that 2L to get you into a sugar coma. These kids have no chance at all.
RR
JSM
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, which is a federal program that provides ***food-purchasing*** assistance for low- and no-income individuals and families in the United States.
Soda is not food. Neither is alcohol or tobacco. It should not be on SNAP. Food....NUTRITIOUS food is the reason for the program. That may be harder to define....but there is no doubt that soda is not nutritious.
Personally, I like the idea of commodities. Real Food. Cheese, Eggs, Butter, Meat, Vegetables, Flour, Milk etc. BUT....the reality is that many people won't, can't cook...or really......just do not have the facilities or equipment to cook.
........And why shouldn't poor people enjoy themselves. Good Grief.
They can. However, when we the taxpayer are provided generous benefits for a specific purpose, it should be used FOR that purpose.
I've been poor....really poor. Food Stamps, Commodities. I would have "enjoyed" some fresh lobster, fine wine, a new muscle car convertible or a trip to Cancun in those days. Hell, I would enjoy those today!!! But...didn't expect/demand that the tax payer buy me those things.
Removing soda from the SNAP program likely reduces caloric intake because people would have to sell their food stamps at a discount to get cash for their soda.
Unintended consequence. Will start seeing “will work for soda” signs.
That'll be soda with no high-fructose corn syrup, thank you very much.
Anybody that has doubts about SNAP should try sacking groceries or running checkout for a while. It's what made me a conservative before I could vote. It used to be a kind of monopoly money that changed hands, but now it's just a white debit card, easy peasey and no shame at all. They've done their utmost to make it unnoticeable.
But when you see multiple carts, a stay-at-home slob of a dad with 4 or 5 kids in tow with mom, in the middle of the day, middle of the week, and you see abuse of the system almost every day, it really does put you off. Yes, there are plenty of people that need the help, most of them, but a lot of them need some education before they start shopping, or maybe more rules on selection.
The 'N' is for nutrition. Why is soda included? Why are chips included? Why are they often choosing the premium brands, and expensive meats?
Because it's free, that's why. IMO there should be limits on the processed food, no soda, no candy, and only store generics allowed on the canned and dry goods. Nutritious !
They could easily just examine the health of people using SNAP who don't like Coke.
But of course this isn't about science.
Maybe it will be stigmatizing to the people who think it looks good not to buy soda. Now, it would mean that you look like you're on food stamps.
If it happens, I will be sure to pick up a 12 pack of soda when I enter the store and casually leave it next to the self checkout so as not to be stigmatized while shopping.
Ideally, prices will be affordable, and "affordability" will not be shared, people will be productive and satisfied, moderate by choice, and healthy will be made beautiful, again.
“Removing soda from the SNAP program likely reduces caloric intake because people would have to sell their food stamps at a discount to get cash for their soda”
That’s actually a bit backwards. Using SNAP to buy large amounts of soda and then selling/bartering it to get alcohol/drugs/tobacco is a well known practice. Very common in Appalachia.
"The 'N' is for nutrition. Why is soda included? Why are chips included? Why are they often choosing the premium brands, and expensive meats?
Because it's free, that's why. IMO there should be limits on the processed food, no soda, no candy, and only store generics allowed on the canned and dry goods. Nutritious !"
--------
I used to think like this until I read some mother say she wanted her child to have a home-baked birthday cake with frosting too...
Yes, let the parents decide what food to buy. Educate all consumers. Force food companies to be regulated. Keep nutrition counseling education in the schools for the children. In time, they'll be feeding themselves...
Work and carbohydrates are a nutritional supplement without the SPAM and sustained Healthcare at progressive prices shared through public debt.
The last I worked in a grocery store, within the last four years, food stamps had already moved to debit-looking cards, and WIC was far more strict in its requirements for only healthy food. It was also checked out using the old paper card system. I guess things have changed. How and by whom? At the time, I encouraged my legislators to end food stamps and put all recipents on WIC, which covered a limited number of healthy foods.
The exact opposite has happened. Plus, when I was dumb enough to be doing social work, I was relentlessly offered food stamps for cash, at half price, so mom could use the cash to buy crack, booze or cigarettes, Miss Grandma and RCOKE. We were not permitted to report this.
How stupid can you be? I've never expressed judgment at a grocery store line despite knowing how many people on benefits were gaming the system. Still, especially Hispanic fattos would accuse the clerk, and me, and anyone else of judging them on a regular basis.
Their manicures and hair extensions alone could have fed their poor kids. One store manager I knew got demoted and transferred to a dangerous neighborhood for catching two Hispanic women openly stuffing expensive food in their purses and coats and actually doing something about it.
Screw these people.
Food stamps can remove anything and everything. They especially can remove something that has no nutritional value.
The stigma of relying on taxpayers to meet your basic needs obviously ISN'T ENOUGH!
Will Mamdami’s state-owned grocery stores carry soda?
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