February 12, 2020

"Please, Democrats, don’t tell me you need Sanders’s big, ill-thought-through, revolutionary grand schemes to get inspired and mobilized for this election."

"You want a revolution? I’ll give you a revolution: four more years of Donald Trump, unencumbered by the need to get re-elected. That will be a revolution!...  [You can win] by not only talking about how to redivide the pie — which we need to do — but by also talking about how to grow the pie, how to create more taxpayers and how to inspire more innovators. Ours is a capitalist country.... I was glad to see candidates with this kind of message, like Amy Klobuchar and Pete Buttigieg, trending better in Iowa and New Hampshire.... But there is one candidate on the Democratic side who not only has a track record of supporting all those issues but also has the resources to build a machine big enough to take on the Trump machine...  This candidate is not cuddly.... He’s made mistakes, especially around stop-and-frisk policing in New York City.... His mistakes, though, have to be weighed against a record of courageously speaking out and devoting enormous personal resources to virtually every progressive cause — gun control, abortion rights, climate change, Planned Parenthood, education reform for predominantly minority schools, affordable housing, income inequality and tax reform.... In an age when political extremists go all the way, and moderates tend to just go away, Bloomberg has the right stuff — a moderate progressive with a heart of gold but the toughness of a rattlesnake...."

From "Paging Michael Bloomberg/Democrats need to nominate the right person to prevent Trump from winning a second term" by Thomas L. Friedman (NYT).

I wonder how Democratic and independent moderates who have watched Amy Klobuchar and Pete Buttigieg fight their way to the front, with endless travel and events and debate, will feel about shunting them aside and embracing the latecomer who's using his vast wealth to barge to the front without all that trouble. I myself am a moderate independent, but I'm not as upset with Trump as the Democrats continually tell me I should be.

There was a big attack on Bloomberg yesterday, with the release of audio recordings of his harsh talk about the need to stop and frisk young black men. I keep hearing questioning whether black people will vote for Pete Buttigieg, but what's the word on whether black people will vote for Bloomberg? The Daily Beast has "Black Voters Turn to Mike Bloomberg/His belated and convenient stop-and-frisk mea culpa might be good enough for voters concerned with beating Trump, and protecting the fraught gains of the past half-century" by Christina Greer (a polisci professor who specializes in "black ethnic politics").
I have spoken to three black NYC political operatives who are quietly thinking about joining the campaign, which is gaining momentum, hiring nationwide, and paying top dollar. These aren’t mercenaries but self-defined pragmatic progressives who believe Bloomberg has the best chance at an electoral victory against Trump in November. I have spoken to a friend who says his black fraternity’s message boards—full of college-educated black men of diverse financial backgrounds, in various professional sectors, living in towns and cities across the country—are full of favorable talk about Bloomberg....

Black voters are strategic voters.... Candidates like Bernie Sanders propose blowing up the ship, but it is black voters who built the ship, as wayward as it may be. Joe Biden presented a more moderate vision... but his promise that he can beat Trump has been sorely tested by the struggles of his campaign so far. Other moderates, like Pete Buttigieg and Amy Klobuchar, are viewed as out of touch by many black voters...
I'm struck to see the phrase "like Amy Klobuchar and Pete Buttigieg" in this column because it was also in the Friedman column, and I almost took the trouble to make fun of it when I saw it the first time. Obviously, the column writers don't mean candidates like Amy Klobuchar and Pete Buttigieg. They mean Amy Klobuchar and Pete Buttigieg. It's sloppy writing, but when I see it twice, in such similar columns, I feel as though the writers are working off the same talking points memo.

129 comments:

rhhardin said...

I myself am a moderate independent

Will believe anything.

rhhardin said...

Young women are not suspicious, old women are suspicious, but neither leads to curiosity about systems. It still short circuits to feelings.

rhhardin said...

Where does Bloomberg stand on mansplaining.

rehajm said...

Like the rest of em Freidman doesn’t know you can bake another pie.

rhhardin said...

I wonder how Democratic and independent moderates who have watched Amy Klobuchar and Pete Buttigieg fight their way to the front, with endless travel and events and debate, will feel about shunting them aside and embracing the latecomer who's using his vast wealth to barge to the front without all that trouble. I myself am a moderate independent, but I'm not as upset with Trump as the Democrats continually tell me I should be.

Find the verb. Feel.

Rory said...

"These aren’t mercenaries but self-defined pragmatic progressives..."

So, mercenaries.

rehajm said...

pragmatic progressives

Oxy...

rhhardin said...

Freidman is worried about crazy people. They're also a threat to the deep state.

Big Mike said...

I feel as though the writers are working off the same talking points memo.

Ya think?!?!?!!

stevew said...

Professional Democrats and politicians really don't like Bernie. The dislike is based on their belief that he cannot defeat Trump. And maybe they think he's an asshole with idiotic ideas. Democrat voters disagree.

rehajm said...

"You want a revolution? I’ll give you a revolution: four more years of Donald Trump, unencumbered by the need to get re-elected. That will be a revolution!

But when it comes to more Trump, don’t you know that you can count me in.

traditionalguy said...

Commissar Bernie is as serious of an enemy of the people that ever got this close to a nomination. The truth about Bernie's plans to enslave the American people is no joke. In his Marxist angry hate for America he promises to steal everything and murder the people who run our society. We better believe him.

wendybar said...

Talk about a MINI dictator!!!!

West Texas Intermediate Crude said...

"Black voters are strategic voters."
Facts assumed, not in evidence. If they are "strategic," whatever that means, they will vote to Keep America Great.
And, it's Amy "Beto" Klobuchar, if you want to use her full name.

Mr. Forward said...

According to Friedman, Bloomberg is a Standard Poodle and Sanders is a Labradoodle.

exhelodrvr1 said...

"I feel as though the writers are working off the same talking points memo."

Ever watch the political shows on CNN/MSNBC?

Marcus Bressler said...

They wrote "like" when they should have written "such as". Lazy writing and little to no editing.

THEOLDMAN

tim in vermont said...

I would rather have an honest choice than Sneaky Pete’s crypto socialism.

I was in a barbershop yesterday where the barbers were all “of color” and listening to black radio and there were two Bloomberg ads on the radio.

tim in vermont said...

In Florida

tim maguire said...

The big shocker: Trump unencumbered by the need to get reelected will behave exactly like Trump encumbered by the need to get reelected.

If “can beat Trump” is the only job qualification, then I’m not sure anyone in the race fits the bill, but I am certain Mike Bloomberg does not.

Eleanor said...

What the Democrats' strategists leave out when they talk about black voters is they also have the choice to vote for Trump. I heard one of them say this morning, "There's no question Trump is the biggest racist in the race." But they can't ever point to anything he's done that's racist. Except maybe treat black people exactly like he treats everyone else.

gilbar said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gilbar said...

as was reading this; i was thinking; Who The HELL is writing this shit?
Then, i got to: Thomas L. Friedman
and it All made much more sense

gilbar said...

Our Beloved Professor Althouse said...
I feel as though the writers are working off the same talking points memo.


It Only feels that way, on account of because of the fact that they ARE
Orders come down, from On High; and the field officers repeat them to the troops

Sydney said...

They really don’t understand the movement among the voters, do they? Trump got elected because he ISN’T a typical politician. He doesn’t say one thing and do another. Same with Bernie. It’s the same motive moving Bernie Sanders to the top of the race as moved Trump to victory.

Darrell said...

No more people working against Trump, sure.
But every person mentioned makes me love Trump more. He's not them.

Matt Sablan said...

The best way to get more people pie is to grow it, not redivide it.

Phil 314 said...

Pragmatic Progressive is someone who supports the Green New Deal but doesn’t want to lose his frequent flyer miles.

Ralph L said...

Here's hoping Friedman has given Bloomie the kiss of death.

Skeptical Voter said...

Sloppy writing? That's what Friedman does. I once read the NYT every day for about 18 months. Friedman was an interesting case. I realized that Friedman's opinions/political fantasies were on a sort of an intellectual "lazy susan". If you waited long enough, Friedman would eventually take a position on any subject 180 degrees from his previous position on that subject.

Now he's warning me that I might get more Trump. I think I can survive that event.

David Begley said...

Funny piece written by the guy who loves the commie regime in China.

JML said...

"...and paying top dollar. These aren’t mercenaries...

Sure. Tell yourself they aren't.

MayBee said...

It's funny that Bloomberg is going to be forgiven for actual stop and frisk, but Trump supposedly cannot be forgiven for thinking the Central Park 5 were guilty.

Mary Beth said...

"Like" there is used as a transition word to introduce examples instead of imply similarity.

The repetition of the same phrase does come off as JournoList 2.0.

Another old lawyer said...

"I'm not as upset ..." writes our host. Odd word choice, and you admit are "upset". What about Trump makes you unhappy, disappointed, or worried? I get that you can be disappointed, but that applies to every politician who doesn't do exactly what one wishes a politician would do, i.e., everyone can be said to be upset with every politician.

Upset connotes to me an emotional flavor to the disappointment or worry, and not just disagreement. So why the upset?

Shouting Thomas said...

So, Trump was right about Biden and Biden's corruption is driving him from the race.

But, Trump should be impeached for being right about Biden.

Now, it's on to another red diaper baby who's supposedly a "moderate" red diaper baby.

Clyde said...

Bernie has the support of less than half of the Democrat party. Add that to some independents and the Never-Trumpers, and you get about 40% of the popular vote. But if the party of youth and diversity and the 99% allows an old, white, male 52xBillionaire to buy the nomination, how many of the Bernie Bros angrily stay home on Election Day?

Michael K said...

The torpedo the Democrats launched at Trump with impeachment finally circled around and sank Biden. Is it still circling ?

Clyde said...

JML said...
"...and paying top dollar. These aren’t mercenaries...

Sure. Tell yourself they aren't.


If your party is going to lose anyway, there's nothing wrong with making some bank in the process. Political operatives have to eat.

Darrell said...

The Central Park 5 were/are guilty. Paying them $millions only make the people paying them accessories.

Curious George said...

"but when I see it twice, in such similar columns, I feel as though the writers are working off the same talking points memo."

You just wake up from a coma or something?

Paco Wové said...

"The best way to get more people pie is to grow it"

Maybe, but the easiest way to get more pie is to have the government take somebody else's pie and give it to you.

Jupiter said...

"Find the verb. Feel."

Actually, worse. "Wonder".

J. Farmer said...

All Friedman’s article demonstrated was that he is just as bad at analyzing national policy as he is at foreign policy. The guy is the embodiment of witless, rotten, supercilious American punditry.

J. Farmer said...

The truth about Bernie's plans to enslave the American people is no joke. In his Marxist angry hate for America he promises to steal everything and murder the people who run our society. We better believe him.

Yet another demonstration that the right is as unhinged about Sanders as the left is about Trump.

Jupiter said...

Althouse seems to think that the point of this exercise is for all the candidates to do their best -- their very, very best -- and then when it's all done, she'll give the A to the best one, and we can all go have some coffee in the faculty lounge.

Althouse, these are Communists. Like all Communists, they believe that all existing societies are corrupt, evil and unjust, and that destroying a society is a necessary precursor to creating a just society on the same real estate. And the real estate they are after is your house. Do you think they will eat you last? You may be right, but you'll still be delicious.

JML said...

Clyde, agreed. You know that and I know that but apparently a polisci professor who specializes in "black ethnic politics" doesn't know that. I'm glad I never got a PhD. I'd hate to be that stupid.

Shouting Thomas said...

Yet another demonstration that the right is as unhinged about Sanders as the left is about Trump.

Yet another demonstration that you don't understand Marxism.

Shouting Thomas said...

Althouse, these are Communists.

That's the problem.

The commie idealistic style appeals to the prof.

A money grubbing, pussy hounding guy like Trump seems déclassé to her.

SeanF said...

...but [Biden's] promise that he can beat Trump has been sorely tested by the struggles of his campaign so far.

Unlike Bloomberg's promise that he can beat Trump, which hasn't been tested at all.

Jupiter said...

I bet we can use her Amazon portal to buy her a Che! T-shirt.

JAORE said...

"black ethnic politics"

OK then, that's a voice I need to hear to get a balanced viewpoint. That is if I sought out a KKK site for the opposing view.

Jupiter said...

I don't think Bloomberg really wants to be President. Maybe I'm wrong, he apparently wanted to be Mayor of NYC, but I think he just has a few billion burning a hole in his pocket and he wants to see what happens if you drag one or two of them through the trailer-park of American national electoral politics.

mikee said...

The only person on the Dem side who could lose more bigly to Trump than Sanders is Bloomie.
Sanders is just a commie bastard. Bloomie is a totalitarian asshole all by himself, before you even get to whatever he calls his political philosophy.

I, for one, think anyone looking at Bloomie's history in New York City should run, screaming, away from the opportunity to make him the executive of the federal government.

Mattman26 said...

“ how to grow the pie, how to create more taxpayers and how to inspire more innovators.“

Isn’t that guy in office already?

hawkeyedjb said...

Matt Sablan said...
"The best way to get more people pie is to grow it, not redivide it."

People pie. Is that made of Soylent Green?

J. Farmer said...

Yet another demonstration that you don't understand Marxism.

Yet another demonstration that calling something Marxist doesn't tell you diddly-squat about it.

Fernandinande said...

"black ethnic politics"

Black black blackety black.

Black voters are strategic voters...

"Strategic" meaning "Democrat".

hawkeyedjb said...

Here's some People Pie

etbass said...

Pete and Amy are Althouse’s dream ticket.

Fernandinande said...

Other moderates, like Pete Buttigieg, who says

"Inspired by American hero Frederick Douglass and comparable in scale to the Marshall Plan that rebuilt Europe after World War II, the Douglass Plan dismantles old systems and structures that inhibit prosperity and builds new ones that will unlock the collective potential of Black America."

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

democratics in the hack press like to think they can manipulate black minds. Sad if that is true. very sad.

frenchy said...

Yet another demonstration that calling something Marxist doesn't tell you diddly-squat about it

Along with 110 million others last century, who were unavailable for comment, let alone to put a name on the ones who slaughtered them.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

Friedman is a Chi-com empty suit. Friedman is the mirror image of the empty high rises and poorly build Potemkin villages that make up much of Chinese infrastructure.

hombre said...

Despite all the pathetic sturm und drang of the Democrat primary fiasco there has never been much doubt that Bloomberg would buy the nomination and “save” the Democrats thereby ending for all time the hypocritical myth of “the working man’s party.” He will appeal to the progressive elite because he is an autocrat at heart. He will appeal to the low information base because he is a Democrat and because free stuff and abortions.

If he becomes POTUS, kiss your king sized soft drinks, your guns and the Constitution goodbye!

JackWayne said...

Please, please, PLEASE choose a “moderate” to run against Trump. It guarantees a Republican President through 2028 and maybe beyond.

Shouting Thomas said...

Yet another demonstration that calling something Marxist doesn't tell you diddly-squat about it.

Yet another demonstration that you don't know diddly-squat about Marxism.

Jupiter said...

"Yet another demonstration that calling something Marxist doesn't tell you diddly-squat about it."

Tells you everything you need to know about it. Marxist history is lies, Marxist "science" is nonsense, Marxist democracy is totalitarian dictatorship, Marxist economics is poverty and theft, Marxist social theory is crystallized hatred. I don't know if there is Marxist sex, but if there is, I don't want any. Of course, I may nor be interested in Marxist sex, but Marxist sex is still very interested in me.

J. Farmer said...

Along with 110 million others last century, who were unavailable for comment, let alone to put a name on the ones who slaughtered them.

The British Labour Party is Marxist.

Gunner said...

At least there is a chance that President Bernie will stand up to The Woke on occasion. Bloomberg is a corporate stooge who will never challenge SJW emotional whining.

J. Farmer said...

Yet another demonstration that you don't know diddly-squat about Marxism.

Okay. Define Marxism.

J. Farmer said...

Tells you everything you need to know about it. Marxist history is lies, Marxist "science" is nonsense, Marxist democracy is totalitarian dictatorship, Marxist economics is poverty and theft, Marxist social theory is crystallized hatred.

Now tell me what the word “Marxist” means.

Gahrie said...

I myself am a moderate independent

Self delusion is a terrible thing.

Gahrie said...

The British Labour Party is Marxist.

And look at what happened to them in their last election.

Shouting Thomas said...

Your attitudes about homosexuality, J. Farmer, are the product of 150 years of Marxist indoctrination about the creation of the New Man.

Start there.

Shouting Thomas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
J. Farmer said...

And look at what happened to them in their last election.

Tony Blair is a Marxist.

Shouting Thomas said...

The fact that Marxist is a term of opprobrium in U.S. politics is a sign of the wisdom of American voters.

J. Farmer said...

Your attitudes about homosexuality, J. Farmer, are the product of 150 years of Marxist indoctrination about the creation of the New Man.

Interesting claim since you don’t know anything about my “attitudes towards homosexuality.”

Seeing Red said...

— You can win] by not only talking about how to redivide the pie — which we need to do — but by also talking about how to grow the pie, how to create more taxpayers and how to inspire more innovators.—-


This is laughable. That a man who lives I think in a 13000 sq.ft. House writes that.

So unselfaware, so arrogant.

Him first.

J. Farmer said...

p.s. And the concept of a “new man” is not unique to Marxism. Plus I utterly reject utopianism.

Seeing Red said...

Along with 110 million others last century, who were unavailable for comment, let alone to put a name on the ones who slaughtered them.

The British Labour Party is Marxist.

(Was) now they’re out of touch losers.


And what held them back?

J. Farmer said...

The fact that Marxist is a term of opprobrium in U.S. politics is a sign of the wisdom of American voters.

And yet the two most popular things the government does are Medicare and Social Security.

J. Farmer said...

(Was) now they’re out of touch losers.


And what held them back?


They’ve been Marxist since their founding over a century ago.

Static Ping said...

Bloomberg has authoritarian/totalitarian tendencies. He's one of those guys who pondered the philosophical question of "what would you do if you were king for a day?" and then bought himself the position so he could try it out. He's not to be trusted. He's one of those fellows who will oppress you for your own good and feel self-righteous about it. The best case scenario for him is turning the United States into Singapore. It could be far worse, but it ain't good.

Otto said...

"I myself am a moderate independent" says the "weird" professor. My arse, like father like daughter.

Amadeus 48 said...

Amy and Pete have served their purpose.

Watch the transformation of Wee Mikee. After he squashes Bernie, will there be enough votes left for him to compete with Trump? That Daily Beast article is chum for black voters.

Now, let's read the play Richard III, where Buckingham tries to get the citizens of London enthused about the Duke of Gloucester's claims to the throne (some changes made as indicated):

Daily Beast:

Laid open all your victories in [Wall Street],
Your discipline in war, wisdom in peace,
Your bounty, virtue, fair humility:
Indeed, left nothing fitting for the purpose
Untouch'd, or slightly handled, in discourse
And when mine oratory grew to an end
I bid them that did love their country's good
Cry 'God save [Mikee, our protector]!'

Wee Mikee:

Ah! And did they so?

Daily Beast:

No, so God help me, they spake not a word;
But, like dumb statues or breathing stones,
Gazed each on other, and look'd deadly pale.
______________________

Maybe Wee Mikee will have more luck than the Duke of Gloucester.

Ken B said...

The BritishLabour Party is not Marxist or communist. Corbyn wanted to make it so, hence the revolts and the collapse. Labour was non communist left wing.

Jim Gust said...

Clearly Bloomberg paid top dollar to get those two columns published. Good catch, Professor!

Gretchen said...

Got to love that Democrats can wear blackface and say every all criminals are black and brown, but Trump is the racist.

hombre said...

Slightly off topic, is it possible that Bloomberg paid for the impeachment that finished Biden? Why not? There was never a chance that the Senate would convict, it was all trumped up and did the visible candidates no good. Democrat chaos. Boom! Up pops Bloomberg to save the day.

How much to buy Schiff? Just a thought.

Roger Sweeny said...

I have spoken to three black NYC political operatives who are quietly thinking about joining the campaign, which is gaining momentum, hiring nationwide, and paying top dollar. These aren’t mercenaries but self-defined pragmatic progressives

Embrace the power of "and".

Paul Snively said...

Mr. Friedman: ...a record of courageously speaking out and devoting enormous personal resources to virtually every progressive cause — gun control, abortion rights, climate change, Planned Parenthood, education reform for predominantly minority schools, affordable housing, income inequality and tax reform...

That Mr. Friedman thinks this represents a moderate position tells you everything you need to know about the party that can't give any lift to Joe Biden, drummed out Joe Lieberman, and also claims Pete Buttigieg is a moderate.

J. Farmer said...

@Ken B:

The BritishLabour Party is not Marxist or communist. Corbyn wanted to make it so, hence the revolts and the collapse. Labour was non communist left wing.

From the site In Defense of Marxism:

In fact, Marxism has been present in the Labour Party ever since its inception in 1900. At that time, the Marxist Social Democratic Party along with other socialist groupings and the trade unions helped to set up the Labour Party. The SDF even had a reserve seat on the Executive of nine. It unfortunately abandoned the Labour Party when it refused to adopt socialism as its aim. However, it later changed its name to the British Socialist Party and re-affiliated to the Labour Party in 1916.

In 1918, under the impact of the Russian Revolution, the Labour Party adopted a new socialist constitution, with its famous Clause Four: “To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.”

Known Unknown said...

Theory is nice, Farmer. But when the shit hits the fan, what do Marxists regularly do?

Wince said...

Aunty Trump said...
I would rather have an honest choice than Sneaky Pete’s crypto socialism.

"He's crazy. He's high. He's floating on Sneaky Pete..."

Known Unknown said...

"Fraught gains of the past half-century"fr

What about the not-so-fraught gains of the past 3 years for African Americans?

Howard said...

I like it how apparatchiks from the deep State media complex are turning the blame once again on to Bernie Bros for their own failures. In the end as I've said before, the Deep state would much rather have Trump than Bernie.

Anonymous said...

J.Farmer: "All Friedman’s article demonstrated was that he is just as bad at analyzing national policy as he is at foreign policy. The guy is the embodiment of witless, rotten, supercilious American punditry."

That string of adjectives gives him too much weight. They could have hired an Erma Bombeck to fill his space and she would have produced analyses with more claim to be taken seriously.

Anonymous said...

"Moderate". They keep using that word...

"Moderate" has apparently come to mean "somebody who buys into or advocates for just about every crazy-ass thing run up the flagpole in the last 20 years by demented prog ideologues, but who draws the line at having their own 401(k) redistributed".

h said...

I expect that as the possibility of a Bloomberg nomination becomes more real, his immigration proposal will get more attention, and I think it is uniquely situated to turn off both the right and left: the right because it is more or less squarely in favor of open borders (at least with Mexico) and the left because it contains a weird (can we say "racist") proposal that would require all Mexican immigrants to live in a resettlement camp in Detroit.

Marc in Eugene said...

I'm a moderate independent. 'Moderate', to my mind, means i.a. that I'm not out there agitating in favor of repeal of the 1st, 2nd, and 19th Amendments.

J. Farmer said...

@Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard:

That string of adjectives gives him too much weight. They could have hired an Erma Bombeck to fill his space and she would have produced analyses with more claim to be taken seriously.

The frightening thing is that Friedman is taken seriously. The Establishment thrives on conventional wisdom, and Friedman is one of its biggest megaphones.

J. Farmer said...

@Unkown Known:

Theory is nice, Farmer. But when the shit hits the fan, what do Marxists regularly do?

My entire point is that a term like "Marxist" is too broad to have any meaning in that context. There is no one thing "a Marxist" would do. A label that can be equally applied to Joseph Stalin and Yanis Varoufakis is not a label that actually tells you very much about what a person believes or what they would do.

TrespassersW said...

David Begley said...
Funny piece written by the guy who loves the commie regime in China.

Well, yeah! They get things done, doncha know?

Like coronavirus.

walter said...

"Bloomberg has the right stuff — a moderate progressive with a heart of gold but the toughness of a rattlesnake"
--
So tough he's letting his $$ do the fighting while he eats (unsalted)popcorn.
Not surprising since his charisma can't sell his own ad approval tag line.
But perhaps "right stuff" includes owning and dictating to a major news outlet.

Caligula said...

"There was a big attack on Bloomberg yesterday, with the release of audio recordings of his harsh talk about the need to stop and frisk young black men."

What seems newsworthy here is that Bloomberg apparently couldn't bring himself to call a press conference and respond to this, but "responded" by posting canned audio to his Twitter account?

Perhaps because although stop-and-frisk may be a defensible policy, claiming that it gives police the right to throw young black men up against a wall for no reason other than their being young and black and in a high-crime neighborhood does not come close to being defensible.

hstad said...


Blogger J. Farmer said...Now tell me what the word “Marxist” means.2/12/20, 8:27 AM

Then later on in another comment, he tells us is diluted definition of Marxism. Furthermore, he then uses a throwaway comment [probably his idea of Marxism] adds that Medicare and Social Security are the most popular programs in the USA.

J. Farmer, firstly, "Medicare and Social Security" are not Marxist or Socialistic Programs [give away programs]. And please don't come back at me with they are bankrupt. That's a questionable response to programs which where done correctly, but screwed up by politicians of both parties [young people on Social Security for example].

I'll answer your question on "define Marxism" by stating it sure isn't what your idolatry of Tony Blair [he is a Marxist] comment - LOL.

Nowhere in the history of man has Socialism, Marxism, etc., ever worked in the long run, without true pain on the people who experimented with such silliness because their 'leaders' wanted to corral more power for themselves.

Howard said...

You idiots have no idea what Jay farmer is doing, when you use labels like Marxist, Stalinist, Fascist Hitler commie pinko fag the whole purpose is to shut down further discussion. It's basically an immovable object that you have placed in the middle of the conversation because you are too stupid and lack appropriate levels of self-confidence to actually defend your opinions with logic facts and reason.

Howard said...

Good point hstad, except for one small criticism. The United States is a mixed free market capitalist socialist economy and also happens to be the most successful country in the history of mankind. The addition of socialism has brought a degree of stability that has helped the middle class flourish and is responsible for the continued renewal of wealth generation. The more socialist friendly people off today or also the most successful in business.

Howard said...

Is symbiosis too big of a word for you people?

John henry said...

J. Farmer said...

Okay. Define Marxism.

A political theory that says that a 3rd party (usually govt by some) can determine "objectively" the values in a transaction between 2 other parties. Usually with some mumbo jumbo about the amount of physical labor "crystalized" in the goods or services being transacted.

And if you don't agree, we will force you to accept that value. Ultimately killing you if necessary.

You WILL accept the objective value or die.

Some here may need to be reminded that value is always subjective.

John Henry

John henry said...

Govt can go by many names but whatever it is called, it always uses force or threat of force to get its way.

The guns are usually hidden. For politeness we pretend they don't exist.

But they always do.

Ask the 100mm

John Henry

J. Farmer said...

@hstad:

J. Farmer, firstly, "Medicare and Social Security" are not Marxist or Socialistic Programs [give away programs].

That of course depends on how malleable your use of the word “socialist.” But that was precisely how they were criticized at the time of their proposal and implementation.

I'll answer your question on "define Marxism" by stating it sure isn't what your idolatry of Tony Blair [he is a Marxist] comment - LOL.

You thinking I have an “idolatry of Tony Blair” is certainly LOL funny.

J. Farmer said...

@Howard:

Think you for getting the point.

John henry said...

Let us take two commodities, e.g., corn and iron. The proportions in which they are exchangeable, whatever those proportions may be, can always be represented by an equation in which a given quantity of corn is equated to some quantity of iron: e.g., 1 quarter corn=xcwt. iron. What does this equation tell us? It tells us that in two different things — in 1 quarter of corn and x cwt. of iron, there exists in equal quantities something common to both. The two things must therefore be equal to a third, which in itself is neither the one nor the other. Each of them, so far as it is exchange-value, must therefore be reducible to this third.

This appears 3-4 pages into marx' Capital. This passage, purporting to show that transactions are made for equal values, is the foundation of the entire marxist edifice.

It is a foundation of sand and 100mm died, were murdered trying to prop it up.

The reality, as we all know if we stop to think about it, is that the quantity of corn traded in this example, is greater in value than the iron.

And vice versa.

The transaction only occurs because both sides go away feeling better off.

Sometimes because the farmer has a gun to her head and that changes the equation. Now they are getting the iron plus the value of not getting shot.

John Henry

Birkel said...

J Farmer,
Let's go the full reductio and just say that language is inherently flawed and terms can never be properly understood because they are defined by other words (turtles all the way down, if you will) and therefore phrases that define politics are meaningless. I mean, what in your argument - such as it is - would stop terms from having poor definitions?

Marxism is a system that denies human nature. Therefore it cannot prescribe a better future. The efforts toward New Man are required because Marxist theory must deny human nature.

But none of those words, down to the and and, can be well defined. And we are at a loss.

Amadeus 48 said...

I like your precise and rigorous thought J Farmer. One must avoid becoming a clever bore, as my wife occasionally and repeatedly reminds me.

rhhardin said...

Marxism is about workers throwing off their chairs.

Tomcc said...

I'm puzzled by this statement: "...four more years of Donald Trump, unencumbered by the need to get re-elected." Is Mr. Trump currently encumbered by the need to get re-elected? Personally, I think not. He's encumbered by the House and Senate, not to mention the Judicial branch. Does Mr. Friedman anticipate the imposition of a monarchy?

J. Farmer said...

@Birkel:

Let's go the full reductio and just say that language is inherently flawed and terms can never be properly understood because they are defined by other words (turtles all the way down, if you will) and therefore phrases that define politics are meaningless. I mean, what in your argument - such as it is - would stop terms from having poor definitions?

That's a fair point, Birkel. And it's a trap that a lot of post-modernist thinking falls into, and one of the main reasons I tend to reject post-modernism. But it's true that, to some degree, all language is inexact at describing reality. But some language is broader than others, and generally speaking it's better to prefer narrower terms to broader ones. So, for example, you could legitimately describe Calvin Coolidge and Franklin Roosevelt as "capitalists," but merely affixing that label to them doesn't actually tell you a great deal about what each believes or what policy preferences they would possess. Ludwig von Mises had no problem, from his perspective, affixing the label "socialist" to Milton Friedman, but again how much does that label really tell you about Friedman?

J. Farmer said...

@Tomcc:

I'm puzzled by this statement: "...four more years of Donald Trump, unencumbered by the need to get re-elected."

I believe Friedman is merely invoking the realities of a so-called "lame duck."

Greg the class traitor said...

Four more years of some of the best economic growth for the "lower half" the US has seen post Reagan?

Oh, the horror!

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"But if the party of youth and diversity and the 99% allows an old, white, male 52xBillionaire to buy the nomination, how many of the Bernie Bros angrily stay home on Election Day?"

Bloody few. We can be hysterical in different ways yet for the same reason.

narciso said...

friedman, who got the shatila story, wrong, who worships at the altar of Chinese autocracy, where has his critique of covid 19s handling, by the Dragon,

Scott said...

Bloomberg's 2015 Aspen Institute address establishes beyond question that he is a racist -- an actual racist, i.e. one whose public policy was motivated by racial animus, as opposed to Trump's muzzy metaphoric racism, which is less fact based.

The big question about Bloomberg will be whether he can buy the Democrat nomination for President. I think he probably can. With a fortune of around $60 billion, he's 20x as rich as Donald Trump, or as Ross Perot was when he died. (In New Jersey, Gov. Murphy and Gov. Corzine were both former Goldman Sachs executives. "Pay for play" is very much in the Democrat DNA.)

If Bloomberg is nominated, Democrats will have to stop bitching about Trump not releasing his tax returns, because Bloomberg won't either. He doesn't want people to see all the 501(c)(4) anti-gun astroturf groups he flushed millions into.

Bloomberg lives in Bermuda. If he's elected, does his compound become the "Bermuda White House?"

Birkel said...

I always make fair points.
Your sometime inability to grok them is not my issue.

J. Farmer said...

@Birkel:

I always make fair points

I wouldn't go that far.

J. Farmer said...

friedman, who got the shatila story, wrong, who worships at the altar of Chinese autocracy,

And an credulous cheerleader for Mohammad Bin Salman.