May 29, 2017

"Trump is not an atheist, confident yet humble in the search for a God-free morality. He is not an agnostic..."

"... genuinely doubtful as to the meaning of existence but always open to revelation should it arrive. He is not even a wayward Christian, as he sometimes claims to be, beset by doubt and failing to live up to ideals he nonetheless holds. The ideals he holds are, in fact, the antithesis of Christianity — and his life proves it. He is neither religious nor irreligious. He is pre-religious. He is a pagan. He makes much more sense as a character in Game of Thrones, a medieval world bereft of the legacy of Jesus of Nazareth, than as a president of a modern, Western country...."

Okay, that's where I draw the line, Andrew Sullivan. Imagine what you like about the interior of Donald Trump's soulknock body-slam yourself out — but I've had it with opinion pieces that assume familiarity with Game of Thrones. I don't watch it, and less than 10% of Americans watch it. I don't really mind being confronted with pop culture references I don't get. Why, only yesterday, I got stuck on a pop culture name I didn't remember seeing before, and I looked it up, watched a video, was a little offended but also amused and entertained, and I made the post better with a quote and a link. But Game of Thrones comes up again and again. It's dull, always the same reference. I gather that it has to do with vicious, hard core politics — killing your rivals? — and I'm picturing seething Trump haters staring at it, muttering: Trump!!! 

But one more thing: Pagans are pre-religious? That's awfully ethnocentric and arrogant. From  Owen Davies, "Paganism: A Very Short Introduction" (at Wikipedia):
It is crucial to stress right from the start that until the 20th century people did not call themselves pagans to describe the religion they practised. The notion of paganism, as it is generally understood today, was created by the early Christian Church. It was a label that Christians applied to others, one of the antitheses that were central to the process of Christian self-definition. As such, throughout history it was generally used in a derogatory sense.
So otherizing, Andrew. Bereft of the legacy of Jesus... that's how you accept insulting people these days? I stopped reading.

238 comments:

1 – 200 of 238   Newer›   Newest»
AReasonableMan said...

Christianists can be very arrogant at times.

Ken B said...

I stopped reading Sullivan even before the fake pregnancy fake news he peddled.

madAsHell said...

Yesterday, I encountered the 420 games. It was a lot of potheads on a timed stroll through the park.

Martin said...

Who knew that Andrew Sullivan was a fundamentalist Christian, so critical of those who are bereft of the legacy of Jesus of Nazareth?

I'm sure the 5 billion non-Christians in the world will all recognize how awful they are in his eyes, and repent.

btb, On what basis other than his own bile does Andrew Sullivan claim any knowledge into Donald Trump's soul?

iowan2 said...

Hard to top our Host on this one.

iowan2 said...

ARM, I know we aren't supposed to call people out by name. But, exactly what identified group is not arrogant at times? What in the hell are you actually trying to say?

chickelit said...

Some things are best left unread. Let's wait for the born-again sullivanists to head their ugly rears.

rcocean said...

So, Andrew Sullivan is back and writing his usual nonsense about people he doesn't like. His pattern is always the same, anyone he disagrees with is evil or stupid. And he becomes almost hysterical in his opposition.

During the Iraq war he switched from a hawk to a dove, and therefore - to Sullivan - all the Hawks immediately went from noble, freedom loving liberators, to stupid fools who callously killed people for no reason.

Of course, when its comes to Trump hating hysteria he has a lot of competition. David Frum, for example, labeled the firing of Comey "a coup" and declared Trump's desire for 2 scoops of ice cream, "the mark of a dictator".

EDH said...

Cutting away all the Sullivantonian gobbledygook, how is Trump different than Obama in this respect?

In Sullivan's own words, when he thought Republicans would always be the "religion" party...

Goodbye to All That: Why Obama Matters

Is Iraq Vietnam? Who really won in 2000? Which side are you on in the culture wars? These questions have divided the Baby Boomers and distorted our politics. One candidate could transcend them.

ANDREW SULLIVAN DECEMBER 2007 ISSUE POLITICS

This struggle to embrace modernity without abandoning faith falls on one of the fault lines in the modern world. It is arguably the critical fault line, the tectonic rift that is advancing the bloody borders of Islam and the increasingly sectarian boundaries of American politics. As humankind abandons the secular totalitarianisms of the last century and grapples with breakneck technological and scientific discoveries, the appeal of absolutist faith is powerful in both developing and developed countries. It is the latest in a long line of rebukes to liberal modernity—but this rebuke has the deepest roots, the widest appeal, and the attraction that all total solutions to the human predicament proffer. From the doctrinal absolutism of Pope Benedict’s Vatican to the revival of fundamentalist Protestantism in the U.S. and Asia to the attraction for many Muslims of the most extreme and antimodern forms of Islam, the same phenomenon has spread to every culture and place.

You cannot confront the complex challenges of domestic or foreign policy today unless you understand this gulf and its seriousness. You cannot lead the United States without having a foot in both the religious and secular camps. This, surely, is where Bush has failed most profoundly. By aligning himself with the most extreme and basic of religious orientations, he has lost many moderate believers and alienated the secular and agnostic in the West. If you cannot bring the agnostics along in a campaign against religious terrorism, you have a problem.

Roger Sweeny said...

Pagan, like queer, is a name originally an insult, appropriated by the insulted as a positive designation.

rcocean said...

Sullivan likes to smoke pot and go "bareback riding"

Just like Jesus. 'Cause Sully knows what Christianity is all about.

Gusty Winds said...

Jesus forgives bloggers who bear false witness against conservative female politicians. Sullivan's little obsessed witch hunt over the false maternity of Trig Palin wasn't very 'christian'.

Sullivan seems quite comfortable judging another man's soul. That's some pretty serious line Christian line crossing considering that is a judgment reserved for God alone.

vanderleun said...

Who can forget the immortal and repulsive "Creamy Loadz"? Sullivan has been suffering the ill effects of his depravity and drug cocktail for many years.

chickelit said...

"Cutting away all the Sullivantonian gobbledygook, how is Trump different than Obama in this respect? "

To Sullivan, Obama was hot, Trump is not. It's that simple.

rcocean said...

BTW, Game of Thrones has jumped the shark. Referencing the show, just indicates you're behind the curve.

Fernandinande said...

I don't watch [Game of Thrones], and less than 10% of Americans watch it.

Except for the midget and the dragons, it was pretty bad, consisting mostly of people mumbling in poorly lit rooms.

EDH said...

More Sullivan, 2007. Conveniently eliding the influence on Obama of Rev. Wright's "Audacity of Hate."

Here again, Obama, by virtue of generation and accident, bridges this deepening divide. He was brought up in a nonreligious home and converted to Christianity as an adult. But—critically—he is not born-again. His faith—at once real and measured, hot and cool—lives at the center of the American religious experience. It is a modern, intellectual Christianity. “I didn’t have an epiphany,” he explained to me. “What I really did was to take a set of values and ideals that were first instilled in me from my mother, who was, as I have called her in my book, the last of the secular humanists—you know, belief in kindness and empathy and discipline, responsibility—those kinds of values. And I found in the Church a vessel or a repository for those values and a way to connect those values to a larger community and a belief in God and a belief in redemption and mercy and justice … I guess the point is, it continues to be both a spiritual, but also intellectual, journey for me, this issue of faith.”

The best speech Obama has ever given was not his famous 2004 convention address, but a June 2007 speech in Connecticut. In it, he described his religious conversion:

"One Sunday, I put on one of the few clean jackets I had, and went over to Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street on the South Side of Chicago. And I heard Reverend Jeremiah A. Wright deliver a sermon called “The Audacity of Hope.” And during the course of that sermon, he introduced me to someone named Jesus Christ. I learned that my sins could be redeemed. I learned that those things I was too weak to accomplish myself, he would accomplish with me if I placed my trust in him. And in time, I came to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death, but rather as an active, palpable agent in the world and in my own life.

It was because of these newfound understandings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity one day and affirm my Christian faith. It came about as a choice and not an epiphany. I didn’t fall out in church, as folks sometimes do. The questions I had didn’t magically disappear. The skeptical bent of my mind didn’t suddenly vanish. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt I heard God’s spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to his will, and dedicated myself to discovering his truth and carrying out his works."

To be able to express this kind of religious conviction without disturbing or alienating the growing phalanx of secular voters, especially on the left, is quite an achievement. As he said in 2006, “Faith doesn’t mean that you don’t have doubts.” To deploy the rhetoric of Evangelicalism while eschewing its occasional anti-intellectualism and hubristic certainty is as rare as it is exhilarating. It is both an intellectual achievement, because Obama has clearly attempted to wrestle a modern Christianity from the encumbrances and anachronisms of its past, and an American achievement, because it was forged in the only American institution where conservative theology and the Democratic Party still communicate: the black church.

roesch/voltaire said...

Don't watch Game of Thrones but its story line is referenced so often I have a vague sense of what it is about and agree it is over=used. But given Trumps silence on the hate killings in Portland one could infer his Christian heart is rather small and only centered on the self.

Lem said...

I can't afford to watch Game of Thrones.

Once written, twice... said...

Two American heros, including one who is a U.S. veteran, died Saturday in Portland, Oregon, standing up to a white supremacist who was terrorizing two young Muslim girls. This was an act of terrorism on American soil but Trump has not tweeted any condolences, nor spoken out against it in any other way.

Ann Althouse, who finds it playful to diminish the seriousness of the assault of a reporter by a newly elected member of congress, will surely also whitewash the terror attack in Portland. It does not fit the narrative of her worldview.

Ann throws her lot with the strong (Trump), not those who she perceives as weak (reporters and young girls who wear hijabs.)

Quayle said...

Always and endlessly from the perch of the better-informed and all-knowing observer.

EDH said...

Once written, twice... said...
Two American heros, including one who is a U.S. veteran, died Saturday in Portland, Oregon, standing up to a white supremacist who was terrorizing two young Muslim girls.

That "white supremacist" was a Bernie Bro and a Jill Stein supporter.

What would the take-away be if the two killed heros were Trump voters?

AReasonableMan said...

Personally I am relieved to have a president so blessedly free of any taint of Christianist dogma.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"(Frum) declared Trump's desire for 2 scoops of ice cream, "the mark of a dictator".

Yeah, if there is one thing that unites Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Trump, it's their common desire for a double helping of Butter Pecan.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Well, you've now had the experience of reading a reference to a show you don't watch written by someone who doesn't watch it either. I do watch GoT, and I can assure you that "pre-religious" is absolutely the last thing that it is.

mockturtle said...

Atheism is rare in the history of mankind. People always worship something. Perhaps there is, as Pascal has stated, "a God-shaped vacuum" in every man. It is not born of ignorance but of a deep spiritual yearning.

rhhardin said...

It's a soul leak.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"Personally I am relieved to have a president so blessedly free of any taint of Christianist dogma."

ARM, you had that with the last president.

Nobody but fools think Obama was any sort of Christian.

rcocean said...

Sullivan is a perfect example of the fact that high verbal IQ and wisdom are completely unrelated.

I wouldn't trust the man to tell me the time of day.

rhhardin said...

I have shallow spiritual yearnings.

The universe is formed by zingers.

JAORE said...

"btb, On what basis other than his own bile does Andrew Sullivan claim any knowledge into Donald Trump's soul?"

By the same divine right (of the left) to psychoanalyze Trump, divine the depth of meaning as to the timing of a held hand with his wife, or a re-positioning in a crowd (where places were likely prearranged).

rhhardin said...

Even in complete vacuum you find zingers. Expansion of the universe.

AReasonableMan said...

"The Portland Mercury, a local newspaper, reported that Christian was a “known right wing extremist and white supremacist” who had attempted to assault protesters at local demonstrations in the past. Video from April 29, shot by Mercury reporter Doug Brown, showed Christian arriving at a “March for Free Speech” draped in an American flag and carrying a baseball bat. While there, Christian yelled to the crowd that he was a “nihilist,” shouted the n-word at people and gave Nazi salutes, Brown reported."

Not sure there were many Nazi saluters among the Bernie Bros.

Sebastian said...

"a medieval world bereft of the legacy of Jesus of Nazareth" Here I thought the main narrative (apologies) of the actual Western medieval world was the process of Christianization.

The story of O's "conversion" is just as made up as that of his girlfriend. Anyone who believes it will believe anything.

Here's a little conundrum: Both Trump and S support gay marriage. How is it compatible with "the legacy of Jesus Christ" and "a medieval world"?

AReasonableMan said...

exiledonmainstreet said...
Nobody but fools think Obama was any sort of Christian.


This sounds a little like Andrew Sullivan.

Sam L. said...

Well, at least Andy left Sarah Palin's uterus out of this.

rhhardin said...

Ethics were around long before the Judeo-Christian traditions; they just poeticized ethics.

Islam poeticized the ethics of the tribe. Hit the other guy on the head and take his stuff. This worked well with nomads but doesn't fit everywhere.

narciso said...

Personally yes, but policy is something different, Christianity arose from the hollowness of the classical world

mockturtle said...

Because we have separation of Church and State and render both unto Caesar and unto God, we [as a nation] can legalize activities that are incompatible with Christian belief. The pastors I know will not perform same-sex marriages, however, and--as yet--churches aren't forced by law to do so.

rhhardin said...

I missed Game of Thrones. It's a bunch of naked people, is all I know. Whether there's blow jobs and humping I couldn't say.

The plot may be thin. It is with the plumber who comes in to fix the toaster, anyway. Sometimes you want more dialogue than they offer.

Modern video doesn't work on my poor old computer in any case without buffering and jumps.

Lem said...

Trump is what people want him to be at the time they want him being that which whatever it is wont stay that way for long.

He's perfect and that's a problem.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...


Blogger AReasonableMan said...
Christianists can be very arrogant at times.


Nice one ARM. A clean one shot kill.

Suicide Squeeze said...

Other contributors have nibbled around the edges of this point but as far as Sullivan saying: "He makes much more sense as a character in Game of Thrones, a medieval world bereft of the legacy of Jesus of Nazareth, than as a president of a modern, Western country....". I would say that in his mind that is a feature not a bug. His idea, like many of the left is to have a leader bereft of the legacy of Jesus of Nazereth.

ARM, of course, has stated that explicitly: Personally I am relieved to have a president so blessedly free of any taint of Christianist dogma

Lots of great leaders of the world were free of the Christianist dogma, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Amin, Saddam Husssein....

Painting with broad brushes is fun.

Rene Saunce said...

Poor Andrew. His corrupt D-queen lost. His old boyfriend was constrained by The U.S. Constitution and had to relinquish power.

Where's Andrew's old "Christianist" insult?

Oh yes - leftists, who adore and roll out the red carpet for the theocracy of Islam, have nothing but intolerant contempt for Christians.

Paco Wové said...

"Not sure there were many Nazi saluters among the Bernie Bros."

Probably not, but it looks like one self-identified.

Again, sounds like Jared Lochner. Angry, mentally-ill person derives a mishmash of views from what he plucks out of the zeitgeist. Coherence of ideology not a strong point, e.g.:

"Sanders/Stein 2017!!! Let's stop these pipelines and reign in the Prison/Military Industrial Complexes!!!We the People have the right(As enshrined in our Constitution)to change any government by any means necessary!!! If Not Today Then Tomorrow!!!"

Lem said...

My biggest fear was that Democrats would find a way to co-opt Trump and make him their puppet.

I guess they fear him for some reason.

Rene Saunce said...

Andrew hearts Islamic theocracy. Just like in the Game of Thrones.

Fernandinande said...

Sullivan is a perfect example of the fact that religion and wisdom are inversely related.

mockturtle said...
Atheism is rare in the history of mankind.


"God was always invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand. Now, when you finally discover how something works, you get some laws which you're taking away from God; you don't need him anymore. But you need him for the other mysteries. So therefore you leave him to create the universe because we haven't figured that out yet; you need him for understanding those things which you don't believe the laws will explain, such as consciousness, or why you only live to a certain length of time — life and death — stuff like that. God is always associated with those things that you do not understand. Therefore I don't think that the laws can be considered to be like God because they have been figured out."

robother said...

Ferdinande: "... people mumbling in poorly lit rooms."

So, you're saying it should've been produced by Masterpiece Theatre?

Lem said...

Maybe run away spending is a Christian thing now? I seem to remember a worried Sully over the ballooning budget deficits.

Rene Saunce said...

I have no idea what is in Trump's heart when it comes to his actual religion or non-religious beliefs.

Does clairvoyant Andrew have the keys?

Rene Saunce said...

Anyone actually believe Obama is a Christian?

n.n said...

Don't place your faith in God. That's your choice. Place your faith in mortal gods or emanations from the twilight fringe.

Judge a philosophy by the content of its principles. The principles stand on their own merit, irrespective of their source.

Is it really this complicated?

Moral axioms or articles of faith: individual dignity and intrinsic value.

Scientific fact: human live evolves from conception.

Moral, natural, and personal imperatives. Go forth and reconcile.

William said...

I'm a GOT fan. The creators and actors of the series are, I'm sure, hostile to Republcans and sympathetic to Dems, but there's not much of an overlap between the War of Roses, Borgia plots, Mongol invasions, and dragons with our current political climate. Nonetheless, there's enough ambiguity about the characters so that you can choose certain characters and define them as Trumpian or Hillaryesque. Young King Joffrey has orange hair and is impulsive and cruel. Just like Trump. Cersei is constantly scheming and saying things she doesn't mean and eliminating people who stand in her way. Just like Hillary. Whatever. It's a good story, well told with lots of gore, nudity, and special effects and far superior to anything else on television these days.

Lem said...

Trump exorting the Europeans to keep their financial commitments to their common defense... so pagan.

It's as if everybody is watching a different movie.

AReasonableMan said...

Lem said...
It's as if everybody is watching a different movie.


"Last year NATO Europe devoted an estimated $265 billion to defense, almost four times Moscow’s expenditures of $68 billion."

From an excellent summary of the current state of play for NATO.

n.n said...

Atheists have been more likely to conflate logical domains, deny human rights, engage in elective wars, and commit mass abortion, than any other faith, except perhaps Islam, but over a compact period. So, the determinative factor is not faith in an extra-universal entity. In fact, it is more likely that men and women will run amuck when they receive their moral instruction from Earth-bound gods and mortal gods who receive their moral (and scientific) instruction from the twilight fringe and preach a Pro-Choice quasi-religion that is selective, unprincipled, and politically correct.

Once written, twice... said...

There is no doubt that the man behind the terror attack in Portland on Saturday is an evil crazy and confused person. That was also true of the Orlando nightclub shooter and most of those who carry out such evil acts of terror.

Why does not Trump condemn the act of terrorism that happen in Portland Saturday and recognize those (including an Army vet) who acted heroically?

We know why.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

While there, Christian yelled to the crowd that he was a “nihilist,” shouted the n-word at people and gave Nazi salutes, Brown reported."

Gee I wonder what caused this? Maybe he was bullied as a kid? Maybe he is mentally ill. Or maybe it was work place violence? We'll probably never know.

But we need to be careful and not blame the moderate Nazis. Nazis are peaceful and the extremist have perverted their peaceful pre-christian religion. We should all wear a swastica pin in solidarity with moderate Nazis.

William said...

The ancient Romans found many reasons to kill people, but, by and large, they did not do so for religious reasons. The pagans, i.e. Polytheists, were not religiously intolerant. That's a feature of monotheistic religions, especially Judaism, Christianity, and Islam......,For a long time, there were no atheists in that everyone believed in the First Mover. There were many people, though, who believed that God or the gods took no active part in the universe after having created it. They could swear allegiance to God(s) but didn't have to believe in his grace, intervention, or mercy. They were de facto agnostics.

Comanche Voter said...

Andrew Sullivan has been adrift on the Sea of Irrelevance for a long time now. I think the sun has gotten to him and he's kinda lost the plot.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Rene Saunce said...
Anyone actually believe Obama is a Christian?"

ARM does, apparently.

William said...

I think in our current era, the religious fanatics have been Muslims and doctrinaire Marxist atheists. That's just a fact.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Modern video doesn't work on my poor old computer in any case without buffering and jumps.
5/29/17, 9:34 AM

Get a new computer. What, are you poor? If your radio wasn't making the grade you upgrade your radio wouldn't you? He that hath no sword let him sell his cloak and buy one.

Once, you seem determined to harp on Portland. For one thing, I personally do not like the president as God who watches every Sparrow fall. How many other murders got committed that day? Is he supposed to decry them all?

For another, it was lose lose lose all the way around. I'm not certain they shouldn't have just let the guy rant and rave. Maybe after a while his meds would have kicked in . And you know what? You intercede with crazy guy on the subway, you're not ready for him to pull a knife, you are not smart.

exiledonmainstreet said...

So - Muslim terrorists murder people on a daily basis, but we are told it has nothing to do with Islam and we are terrible people for judging the religion based on the actions of a few.

But a nutjob murders people on a Portland train and that is somehow the responsibility of Trump and every Trump voter?

Nope, I don't think so.

n.n said...

Atheists including Marxists, communists, and socialists. The National socialists adopted a Pro-Choice religious/moral philosophy that denied life unworthy (e.g. elective abortion) and individual dignity (i.e. [class] diversity or judging people by the "color of their skin"). It's not surprising that left-wing ideologues with a Pro-Choice quasi-religion have initiated more elective wars in the last two centuries and recently in Libya, Syria, Somalia, Ukraine, etc.

Unknown said...

BTW, why is everyone assuming the HBO series? The books are some of the best fantasy ever written and well worth your attention. Of course we may never have an ending with the books, but that's another issue:

amazon althouse

Quaestor said...

Last year NATO Europe devoted an estimated $265 billion to defense, almost four times Moscow’s expenditures of $68 billion.

Overwhelmingly that $265 billion was spent on salaries, pensions, education benefits, healthcare, and family allowances. The amount spent on weapons, equipment, training, and logistics was minuscule by comparison to such outlays by the Russian Federation, which fields a conscript army of young men paid a token salary. The most important new weapon in NATO in terms of cash outlays is the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. So far only the United States and the United Kingdom have actually bought any of them, though most NATO air forces have committed to the program, at least on paper. Meanwhile, Russia has introduced two new fighter aircraft, a new main battle tank, two new surface warship classes, and a new ballistic missile submarine class.

I'm not saying Russia is a threat. I'm saying NATO is a joke.

exiledonmainstreet said...

William said...
I think in our current era, the religious fanatics have been Muslims and doctrinaire Marxist atheists. That's just a fact.

5/29/17, 10:10 AM

What? You mean to tell me the Little Sisters of the Poor and Christian bakers don't pose a real threat to our democratic institutions? Haven't you read "The Handmaid's Tale?"

n.n said...

a nutjob murders people on a Portland train

[class] diversitist. The DNC (as revealed by Water Closet), the left, and other Pro-Choicers need to condemn their home-grown criminals.

Leftists should condemn Obama's elective wars that are first-order forcings of catastrophic anthropogenic immigration reform (CAIR). If you wanted Gaddafi's oil, you should have asked; if you wanted Russian nuclear technology, you should have asked; rather than go on a social justice adventure, commit mass abortion, and force CAIR.

rcocean said...

"The books are some of the best fantasy ever written"

First three books are very good. Last two, especially a "A Feast for Crows" much less so. "A Dance of Dragons" has its moments but has too much padding, I especially liked the constant descriptions of Tyrion's cock and how he liked taking a piss. /sarcasm off/.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

I'm saying NATO is a joke.


https://www.google.com/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/10/german-army-forced-to-lay-down-weapons-due-to-overtime-limits/amp/

AReasonableMan said...

Quaestor said...
I'm not saying Russia is a threat.


When you are outspending a rival 4:1 my guess is that throwing more money at the problem is not the solution.

Lyle Smith said...

No Nazi bros among the Bernie bros is probably right, but definitely there are some Stalinist and Che bros among the Bernie bros.

William said...

There was some guy in Mississippi who murdered his family and one of the cops who were sent to intervene. He ran the body count up to eight. He was captured alive.......Such a sad story. If the cops had killed him prior to his episode of mass murder, then he would have been a martyr and the family would have received millions in a settlement.......I call on all civil rights leaders to praise the restraint of the cops who managed to capture this mass murderer alive.

n.n said...

Russians are not entangled in a progressive ball of yarns that threatens to strangle Western societies.

n.n said...

William:

It could have been one of Obama's sons. Prejudice is a progressive condition forced by a faith and quasi-religion with principles that are internally, externally, and mutually contradictory.

Lyle Smith:

No Democrat socialists? No [class] diversitists? No Pro-Choice/abortionists? in Bernies campaign, really? That is the distinguishing character.

Clyde said...

roesch/voltaire said...
Don't watch Game of Thrones but its story line is referenced so often I have a vague sense of what it is about and agree it is over=used. But given Trumps silence on the hate killings in Portland one could infer his Christian heart is rather small and only centered on the self.


Dude, you don't know? The killer was a Bernie-supporting Jill Stein voter who was booted out of a Trump rally during a campaign. Oh, and one of the victims was a man who had run for office in Portland, Oregon, as a Republican.

Mark said...

The ancient Romans found many reasons to kill people, but, by and large, they did not do so for religious reasons. The pagans, i.e. Polytheists, were not religiously intolerant.

To refuse to offer up sacrifices to appease the Roman gods was an anti-social and treasonous act against the people and the state. Christians in particular, who refused to do so, were actually accused of being atheists and enemies of mankind. As such, they were subjected to various rounds of persecution where, among other things, they were made sport of in the Roman games and used as human torches to light up the arenas at night.

Gusty Winds said...

Trump bashing has become the unoriginal me-too-ism of our time.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Incidentally, President Trump is speaking right now on television at 11:36 a.m. eastern time. I can't really hear what he's saying but he may very well cover the Portland event. Then will you shut up? Sorry he doesn't dance to your tune on your timing. Or is this what it means when they say sorrynotsorry?

Clyde said...

Once written, twice... said...
Two American heros, including one who is a U.S. veteran, died Saturday in Portland, Oregon, standing up to a white supremacist who was terrorizing two young Muslim girls. This was an act of terrorism on American soil but Trump has not tweeted any condolences, nor spoken out against it in any other way.


Oh, blah blah blah! One of those American heroes (Mr. Best) had run for office in Portland as a Republican. Talk about a quixotic quest! How do you like him now that you know that he was one of those evil Republicans?

And the killer was not a Trump supporter. He supported Bernie Sanders and voted for Jill Stein, and was kicked out of a Trump event during the campaign. In short, he is a hate-filled nihilistic asshole. Too bad they don't have a death penalty in Oregon, because he deserves it.

Paco Wové said...

"...Trumps silence on the hate killings..."

The word seems to have gone out that this is what all the good little DNC-bots are going to kvetch about today.

n.n said...

Atheism is a faith (e.g. twilight, mortal gods) devoid of religious consensus, that routinely conflates logical domains. Theism is a faith in terrestrial gods or extra-universal entity with a religious/moral consensus. Agnostics, as do some theists, recognize a soft separation of logical domains: science (i.e. accuracy is inversely proportional to time and space (or just space) offsets from an established frame of reference), philosophy, fantasy, and faith. It's the Atheists who are prone to narcissism and adopt left-wing ideologies that have run amuck, as well as theists with a religious consensus that integrates left-wing ideology with dreams of redistributive change, deny individual dignity and intrinsic value.

Religious/moral philosophy to keep honest people honest, and competing interests to mitigate the opportunity for others to run amuck, engage in elective wars, commit mass abortion, normalize [class] diversity, etc.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Note that by the way. Trump is fighting the news cycle.

Something happens and there's screams for him to say something right now right now why isn't he saying something he's a bad person. Then, when he's good and ready, he says and does what he's going to say and do. They must hate that.

But it's really a bad thing, because of course whereas the people in Portland could be brought back to life by something immediately coming out of the president's mouth, a couple days later, there not able to be resurrected by words. Must be a freshness thing.

Tldr: Obama would have saved them! With his mouth!

Inga said...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/05/27/man-fatally-stabs-2-on-portland-ore-train-after-they-interrupted-his-anti-muslim-rants-police-say/?utm_term=.df39d0daec63

"The Portland Mercury, a local newspaper, reported that Christian was a “known right wing extremist and white supremacist” who had attempted to assault protesters at local demonstrations in the past. Video from April 29, shot by Mercury reporter Doug Brown, showed Christian arriving at a “March for Free Speech” draped in an American flag and carrying a baseball bat. While there, Christian yelled to the crowd that he was a “nihilist,” shouted the n-word at people and gave Nazi salutes, Brown reported.

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, a Facebook page they said belonged to Christian showed he held racist, white supremacist and extremist beliefs. On that profile, the Facebook user said he supported creating a “White homeland” in the Pacific Northwest and declared on April 9 that he had “just Challenged Ben Ferencz (Last Living Nuremberg Persecutor) to a Debate in the Hague with Putin as our judge. I will defend the Nazis and he will defend the AshkeNAZIs.”

On April 19, the anniversary of the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, the user praised bomber Timothy McVeigh in another status update.

“May all the Gods Bless Timothy McVeigh a TRUE PATRIOT!!!” he wrote. McVeigh was sentenced to death for the 1995 bombing, which killed 168 and was the deadliest terrorist attack on American soil before Sept. 11, 2001.

On April 28, the same Facebook user shared a meme that showed a picture of Confederate statues being removed.

“If we’re removing statues because of the Civil War, We should be removing mosques because of 9/11,” the meme stated."

Gahrie said...

standing up to a white supremacist who was terrorizing two young Muslim girls.

I wonder why Once always leaves out the facts that the madman was a Bernie supporter, Stein voter and was kicked out of a Trump rally?

n.n said...

Leftists need to own the catastrophic anthropogenic immigration reform forced by Obama/Clinton's elective wars. It is unseemly that they exploit the survivors for Democratic leverage, redistributive change (e.g. welfare profits), and disenfranchising native people. The rise of national socialism (i.e. minority control) should be a concern for all civilized people.

Inga said...

"That same day, the user posted a lengthy Facebook status “too (sic) all my Portland Peeps” encouraging them to attend a free speech rally in Portland:

"I will be there Demasking anyone with a mask. I will attend in Lizard King Regalia as a Political Nihilist to Provoke both Sides and attempt to engage anyone in a true Philosophy and Political Discussion. This Is what I have done for the last 6 years in front of Powell’s Books Downtown. I take the Role of International Patriot and Revolutionary VERY SERIOUS BUT YOU ALL KNOW I AM THE MOST LAID BACK DUDE IN THE WORLD- Until you cross that line then nothing will stop our COME TO JESUS TALK FRIEND OR FOE.""

Inga said...

I'm picturing sycophantic Trump worshippers as one body chanting Trummmmmp, Trummmmmp, Trummmmmp...

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

So otherizing, Andrew. Bereft of the legacy of Jesus... that's how you accept insulting people these days? I stopped reading.

Right. Just after you berated him for a Game of Thrones reference - a popular show that resonates with - if your numbers are correct - at least 30 million Americans. 10% of a population is a huge number for familiarity with a form of popular media culture. Gold and platinum records are awarded for far fewer purchases than that.

And the other BS in that sentence is your presumption that Americans have any respect at all for much of anything other than Christianity in their politicians - let alone atheists or pagans. While we have yet to see if they have anything other than begrudging accommodation of anything outside of the hodgepodge of whatever's included inside the sloppy, popular designation of Judeo-Christian, what's certain is that their political tolerance for atheists is abysmally low. We can assume that their political tolerance for pagans is even lower. So be as open-minded as you want. His professional frame of reference makes sense to remain responsibly fixed within the cultural framework of American politics, however.

Inga said...

"Police confirmed to the Portland television station on Sunday that the raving commuter is Jeremy Christian, the 35-year-old held on multiple murder charges following a bloody attack that unfolded Friday afternoon.

"You got a problem with what I'm saying? F--- all you Christians and Muslims and f---ing Jews. F---ing God. Burn you at the stake just like you did to my pagan ancestors. You don't like it? Come do something about it," Christian can be heard saying."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ore-suspect-ranted-religion-night-double-slaying-article-1.3203448

Michael K said...

The left has fixated on the DNC theme of the day.

Again, sounds like Jared Lochner. Angry, mentally-ill person derives a mishmash of views from what he plucks out of the zeitgeist. Coherence of ideology not a strong point, e.g.:

Yes, I am convinced both of these killers were mentally ill and did not make sense with any of their alleged motives.

The religion of the left is global warming/ environmentalism which doesn't make much sense. It doesn't have to.

Trump also did not make any statement about the 8 killings in Mississippi, whoch were far more horrendous but, of course, black lives matter only when killed by a white.

Inga said...

The silence about this incident from Trump and others is not surprising, sadly. Here's a bit about the heroes who died for doing the right thing, for their own decency and humanity.

http://www.newser.com/story/243447/meet-the-heroes-who-died-defending-girls-in-portland.html

"(NEWSER) – New details are emerging about the three victims of Friday’s stabbing attack in Portland, two of whom died. People reports that Ricky John Best, 53, was killed at the scene of the attack while Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, 23, died later at the hospital. Police say a third victim, 21-year-old student Micah David-Cole Fletcher, is being treated for serious injuries, but is expected to recover. The three men are being called heroes for coming to the aid of two teenage girls, described by witnesses as Muslim, who were allegedly being harassed by Jeremy Christian on a MAX train. Christian is accused of stabbing the men and is being held on multiple charges, including aggravated murder. According to the Oregonian, Best was a technician for Portland’s Bureau of Development Services. The Army veteran and father of four was commuting home when the incident occurred.

"He was always the first person you would go to for help," says his supervisor. "I've talked to most of his coworkers today, and several of them said it's just like Rick to step in and help somebody out." The BBC reports that Namkai-Meche recently graduated from college with an economics degree. His mother wrote on Facebook that he “was a hero and will remain a hero on the other side of the veil.” During a vigil in Portland, she said his heart was as “big as the world,” and called on people to respond to the incident with love. Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler praised the three men for their "brave and selfless actions" and hopes they’ll "serve as an example and inspiration to us all." A GoFund Me campaign has been set up for Best and Namkai-Meche's families, while a separate one seeks to help Fletcher with his medical bills."

exiledonmainstreet said...


"You got a problem with what I'm saying? F--- all you Christians and Muslims and f---ing Jews. F---ing God. Burn you at the stake just like you did to my pagan ancestors."

So the guy hates Christians, Muslims and Jews and honors his "pagan ancestors." Yeah, Inga, that sounds just like your Trump voting neighbors in Waukesha County, who, I'm sure, regularly gather to worship Wotan and Thor and curse Christians.

Sorry. Lone kook. Not our fault, not our responsibility.

mockturtle said...

but, of course, black lives matter only when killed by a white.

So true, Michael K. More than 93% of black homicides are committed by blacks. I have personally known only two murder victims. Both were black and where shot to death by blacks.

Mark said...

So, the Portland attacker was a pot-smoking, self-identified pagan "lizard king" who hated Christians and was a counter-demonstrator at a Trump free speech rally.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

The silence from Sanders and Stein is deafening.

When will they apologize for their supports actions? When will they take a good hard honest look at their politics and ask themselves how their rhetoric is responsible for this attack.

We know why.

exiledonmainstreet said...

The people I have known who honor their pagan ancestors and profess to be pagans or witches themselves are inevitably loopy left-wing New Age types who believe in the healing power of crystals.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"You got a problem with what I'm saying? F--- all you Christians and Muslims and f---ing Jews. F---ing God."

Yeah, Mike Pence is all on board with that statement, I'm sure.

narciso said...

Yes he was a bezeeker like the Pentagon shooter, the irs lane crasher in Austin, the holocaust one in washington

Bill Peschel said...

William said: "I'm a GOT fan. The creators and actors of the series are, I'm sure, hostile to Republcans and sympathetic to Dems, but there's not much of an overlap between the War of Roses, Borgia plots, Mongol invasions, and dragons with our current political climate."

Not directly, but the show reminded me of a primary principle in politics: It's always personal.

More decisions are made based on the person proposing it than on principle or philosophy.

This is why Dems favor making birth control over the counter, until a Repub proposes it (as just happened). Why a court could rule that a law is illegal based on who proposed it (when it was agreed, in court, before those same judges, that if President Hillary Clinton had passed it, that it was constitutional). This is why Dems favor political violence by its politicians such as Sen. Al Franken and Rep. Bob Ethridge, and its supporters in Berkeley, and condemns any hint of violence by Republicans.

Oh, and it looks like an hour ago Trump condemned the Portland knife attacks by the Bernie bro / Jill Stein supporter.

Inga said...

"So, the Portland attacker was a pot-smoking, self-identified pagan "lizard king" who hated Christians and was a counter-demonstrator at a Trump free speech rally."

Who hated Christians, Jews and Muslims, who made death threats against Hillary Clinton and then supported Trump.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/juliareinstein/portland-suspect?utm_term=.imgQYD1x9#.en8Vod5W9

"According to his posts, he was a passionate Bernie Sanders supporter who later supported, but did not vote for, President Trump. He frequently posted violent threats against Hillary Clinton and her supporters.

He also posted about free speech, gun rights, conspiracy theories, marijuana and — one of his most discussed topics — opposing circumcision."

Inga said...

"The people I have known who honor their pagan ancestors and profess to be pagans or witches themselves are inevitably loopy left-wing New Age types who believe in the healing power of crystals."

http://www.vocativ.com/371124/witches-for-trump/

"Last month, during the final supermoon before the Autumnal equinox, Rapid Cabot FreeMan knelt before a stone table next to a fire at his farm in Kingwood, West Virginia, and prayed for his nation to heal itself. “I asked God Woden to guide this good man to leadership. To protect and repair the country I love and make America great again for the sake of my godson Zak and the children of America. So mote it be.”

FreeMan is the founder of The Firstblood Tradition of American Witchcraft, which blends Paganism and Germanic Heathenry. He’s also the creator of the Facebook group American Pagans for Trump and one of the most influential people in the pro-Trump Pagan community."

American Pagans for Trump

Matthew Sablan said...

I'm just glad that we've moved beyond the "Everything is Harry Potter" stage of commentary.

Dan Hossley said...

How would Sullivan know whether Trump is a Christian? He doesn't know Trump so his only insight is derived from public statements of a reality TV star, businessman and politician. Maybe he doesn't understand that the actor isn't the role he plays. That's why they call it acting. That's takes us to the second part of his statement. How does he know Christianity? Did he read about it?

Lem said...

"Bereft of the legacy of Jesus "

Jesus would not have tweeted so much. When he was accused he kept his mouth shut.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

The religion of the left is global warming/ environmentalism which doesn't make much sense. It doesn't have to.

Yes. Pollutionism makes much more sense. Global cooling, too. There is no link between atmosphere and climate. No link at all! Asteroids and the moon are perfectly capable of regulating their own climates! We could replace our atmosphere with the vacuum of space and earth's climate would remain perfectly stable, as before. An oil industry exec. told me so and he knows much more than a physicist. There is much more wisdom in stock tickers than in the data of collecting temperature trends. If you can make money off of it then there is no way it could ever harm someone, let alone harm large numbers of people. That's why the hit man and body guarding industries benefit from laws against murder. If murder were deregulated (i.e. legalized), then those professions would go out of business.

exiledonmainstreet said...

That's a gigantic group, I'm sure, Inga. A real political force.

There's also a Wiccans for Bernie group:
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-sanders-prayer-circle-20160514-snap-story.html

And Wiccans for Hillary:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/this-wiccan-is-voting-for-hillary_us_580538b6e4b00483d3b5c9c7

The pagan and witch vote is more widely distributed across the political spectrum than I would have guessed, although Bernie and Hillary seem to attract the 300 pound witches.

Perhaps now Inga will worry about Pagans for Trump rather than fretting about the evil Christianist takeover as forseen by the prophetess Margaret Atwood.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

American Pagans for Trump. 362 likes.

Pagans for Bernie Sanders. 882 likes.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Inga is getting her information from Buzzfeed, because they proved to be such an accurate source when it came to Pissgate.

How can you not trust gold star reporting like that?

exiledonmainstreet said...


"Oh, and it looks like an hour ago Trump condemned the Portland knife attacks by the Bernie bro / Jill Stein supporter."

It doesn't matter. Inga and company will continue on with the Hate of the Day.

On Memorial Day of all days.

The Cracker Emcee said...


""You got a problem with what I'm saying? F--- all you Christians and Muslims and f---ing Jews. F---ing God. Burn you at the stake just like you did to my pagan ancestors. You don't like it? Come do something about it," Christian can be heard saying.""

I've personally heard very similar rants from Leftists on multiple occasions. This would be boilerplate for the average Millennial SJW, though they would feel obliged to omit the part about Muzzies.

AJ Lynch said...

Trump must have done pretty good on his 1st foreign trip because his opponents have taken their shrieking criticism to the next level.

JAORE said...

"I'm picturing sycophantic Trump worshippers as one body chanting Trummmmmp, Trummmmmp, Trummmmmp... "

Sure I guess it is easy for your fevered brain picture that since we've SEEN the example of the "Oh-bah-mah....Oh-bah-mah...." chants on UTube.

Now, when that Trump chant becomes a REALITY, feel free to link it here.

Brookzene said...

It seems to me a real stretch to believe that Trump has any sense of spirituality. It must be at a very low level if it is there at all from what I can tell. YMMV.

Inga said...

I agree that ithis guy was probably mentally ill. Someone who alternately hated and loved certain political figures.

Jeremy Christian's pro Trump Facebook comments

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Didn't Inga vote for Bernie and/or Stein?

She should be apologizing for her fellow travelers actions.

Why the silence? We know why.

MarkJ said...

"Why does not Trump condemn the act of terrorism that happen in Portland Saturday and recognize those (including an Army vet) who acted heroically?

We know why."

Who is "we"? You, your reflection in the mirror, and those voices in your head, perhaps?

exiledonmainstreet said...

I'd like to see the left get as upset when a Muslim terrorist slaughters innocent children as they do when a nutjob who supported Sanders murders people on a train.

They save their real indignation for when Muslims are attacked.

Rance Fasoldt said...

I read much of George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire," the first volume of which is titled "A Game of Thrones" before I tired of the bad writing. As an accomplished reader of literature, I can proclaim Martin the Thomas Kincaid of authors. A lot of people like Kincaid, but that doesn't make him a Master. Having suggested that the story is lame, I posit that the acting is average, but the production values are quite impressive. I credit the production values for the success of the TV series, in that one can hide behind the acting and locations while indulging in the nudity, incest and violence. Very quickly I was interested only in the dire wolf puppies. Did any survive?

Inga said...

On Memorial Day of all days."

To point out the heroes, one of which was an Army veteran, father of four, that stood up to hate is very fitting for Memorial Day. Too bad you Trumpists chose to ignore the incident and the heroes.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Enough picking on the leftists today. Don't you have any empathy? Just imagine​ how extremely excited they were when they first heard this news. It must have been like Christmas and New Year's all rolled into one. The only thing they regretted was the two young Muslim girls weren't killed. That would have been perfect!

They were so ready to get their hate on for Trump and his supporters (and Republicans and Conservatives too for good measure). Just think of all the bitterness and bile they were ready to spew.

Then it turns out this is a nutter from their extreme. Sure they can still post but they have to put up with counter posts pointing out the truth. Their hearts just aren't into it.

Brookzene said...

"Incidentally, President Trump is speaking right now on television at 11:36 a.m. eastern time. I can't really hear what he's saying but he may very well cover the Portland event."

I hope that's true. That would be a good thing for everyone imo.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Too bad you Trumpists chose to ignore the incident and the heroes.

Trump blamed the death of a SEAL he committed to a raid in Yemen on his generals. Then he wowed himself at a JSC by throwing the widow into the congressional limelight and saying that god would be happy with the applause he got by standing her up and pointing her out. Especially since it rivaled the applause he got for his own little moments.

These people are simply indecent cockroaches with no morals, standards or boundaries whatsoever. All that they care about is whatever they can do to grow their political power. That's all that matters to them. That's it.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"These people are simply indecent cockroaches with no morals, standards or boundaries whatsoever. All that they care about is whatever they can do to grow their political power. That's all that matters to them. That's it."

Now there's a textbook case of projection.

Ritmo is lecturing us about decency? That's so amusing.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"These people are simply indecent cockroaches with no morals, standards or boundaries whatsoever. All that they care about is whatever they can do to grow their political power. That's all that matters to them. That's it."

I'm saving this quote. I'm sure it will come in handy in the very near future.

Lewis Wetzel said...

These people are simply indecent cockroaches with no morals, standards or boundaries whatsoever. All that they care about is whatever they can do to grow their political power. That's all that matters to them. That's it.
Do they go blog-trolling?
That would be unforgivable. And a little sad.

Snark said...

The paragraph that immediately follows the Game of Thrones reference is the one that unfolds that reference and is the central point of the piece. Handy to stop reading there.

The Cracker Emcee said...

"These people are simply indecent cockroaches with no morals, standards or boundaries whatsoever. All that they care about is whatever they can do to grow their political power. That's all that matters to them. That's it."

Exactly what people have been saying about the Left since 1917. It's awesome how concisely you've defined yourself.

Snark said...

"rhhardin said...
It's a soul leak."

Ha ha! That made me smile.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

"Blessed are you when others revile you and investigate you and utter all kinds of fake news about you. Rejoice and be glad for the failing press is dying."

Henry said...

I dunno. Maybe Trump is pre-Christian like Obelix.

It seems that as the referent for fantasy paganism, Game of Thrones has displaced Conan. Farewell, muscly wanderer.

YoungHegelian said...

Oh, give it a rest on the Trump's not a real Christian bullshit, willya!

The list of Presidents of the 20th C who were anything more than "nominal" Christians is fairly short. I think Carter was a good liberal Southern Baptist, & that it informed his daily life. The rest -- meh! They all had to keep up appearances and so publicly parked their butts in the pew every now & then. They were also bright enough to understand that active hostility to people of faith was the kiss of death in American politics.

I think JFK's religiosity started & stopped at "Jesus! That's a nice set of tits!".

readering said...

Keep reading. Second half of the piece is on the remarkable conquest of hiv by medicine. Sullivan of course a beneficiary.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Exactly what people have been saying about the Left since 1917. It's awesome how concisely you've defined yourself.

Whoever these people are, they apparently didn't end your Great Depression, win WWII, elect a president who rallied the votes to pass the CRA, insure 20 million previously uninsured Americans, create a lasting peace and international order - inc. the same NATO whose function Trump doesn't understand, while ending elder poverty, lack of insurance for the elderly as well as for the indigent.

I'm pretty to be happy to be defined that way, you resentful, useless asshole.

Enjoy your Memorial Day. Don't forget to curse the soldiers who died in FDR's war to liberate Europe from fascism and pacify the Pacific while you praise GWB for getting 3,000 Americans killed on our own soil, along with a few thousand other troops and a million Iraqis in a war to keep oil away from the non-Saudi dictator that you didn't like.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Even leaving aside the pop-culture fail, judging heads of government by how closely they resemble Jesus is an idiotic thing to do.

Michael K said...

"the remarkable conquest of hiv by medicine. Sullivan of course a beneficiary."

I didn't read it but the story of HIV has two versions, one true.

Read "Science Fictions" by Crewdson, which recounts the fraud perpetrated by Gallo.

It's not the only case of fraud in Science but it may be the best book about it.

rehajm said...

Now if he was making Girls references he would surely have something.

Rick said...

On Memorial Day of all days."

To point out the heroes, one of which was an Army veteran, father of four, that stood up to hate is very fitting for Memorial Day. Too bad you Trumpists chose to ignore the incident and the heroes.


How do leftists become so ingrained in their hatred they turn tragedy into political attacks even while concurrently posing as being better than to do so? And invoking Memorial day while expressing their hatred seems particularly low class.

Fernandinande said...

EDH said...
That "white supremacist" was a Bernie Bro and a Jill Stein supporter.


He was also quite a comedian in other ways:
"I was declared sane in federal court judge Anna Brown 2013"

"All Zionist Jews, All Christians who do not follow Christ's teaching of Love, Charity and Forgiveness And All Jihadi Muslims are going to Madagascar or the Ovens/FEMA Camps!!!"

"Im a nihilist and a registered libertarian and only voted for Bernie in 2016."

A Nihilist Christian Socialist Libertarian is quite a combo.

rehajm said...

Trump is elements of Tyrion, Jon, Littlefinger, Daenerys, Tormund.

Lefites all think Trump is Joffrey.

Lefties are all Edmure Tully.

rehajm said...

Or maybe Robin.

narciso said...

One could be churlish and blame fdr for scapegoating husband and Kimmel for pearl harbor But that would be wtong.

Lewis Wetzel said...

"while you praise GWB for getting 3,000 Americans killed on our own soil . . ."
They were killed by Muslim terrorists, not Bush.
As usual, reality is over here -- about where I am standing -- and R&B is way, way, way, over there. Out by Pluto, I reckon.

hombre said...

Once written, twice...: "This was an act of terrorism on American soil but Trump has not tweeted any condolences, nor spoken out against it in any other way."

Crikey! "Terrorism?" Really? Think of all the reasons Obama and the Obamadupes would have offered to show that this was NOT terrorism if this guy had been Muslim.

A nutjob behaves like a nutjob provoking Althouse moonbats to bloviate like nutjobs. If only this loon (the killer, not Once written, twice) had been a Tea Party guy. Think of the possibilities!!

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Bush was definitely very good at getting out of the way and letting 9/11 just happen. But his supporters definitely have something in common with Muslim terrorists. Muslim terrorists blame their atrocities on anti-Western grievances, while Bush supporters blame his failure to keep the country safe on Muslim terrorists. It's a virtuous cycle of violence, irresponsibility and terror!

Now watch this drive.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"And invoking Memorial day while expressing their hatred seems particularly low class."

Yes, indeed it does.

Michael said...

Someone ought to check the latest uninsured numbers.

Lewis Wetzel said...

while Bush supporters blame his failure to keep the country safe on Muslim terrorists.
FDR is hero for failing to keep sailors at Pearl Harbor safe, while GW Bush is a villain for being complicit in the 9/11 deaths.
At some level, R&B probably realizes that he is insane.

Inga said...

"And invoking Memorial day while expressing their hatred seems particularly low class."

"Yes, indeed it does."

Not honoring the heroes of Portland on Memorial Day, who died protecting two teen Muslim girls from a vicious insane hate filled killer seems particularity insensitive and even more so, an attempt to minimize the sacrifice these heroic decent human being made. I'd say the shame falls on you Trumpists. Your hero declares proudly that he could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot someone and his followers would still love him. It's obvious you are incapable of shame, you're so intoxicatd with the fumes coming out of Trumps noxious being.

Inga said...

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/05/max_stabbing_victim_was_portla.html

"Rick Best, one of two men killed in a brutal attack Friday aboard a MAX train, was a city of Portland employee, Army veteran and onetime candidate for Clackamas County commissioner.

Rick Best
Rick Best (Oregonian/OregonLive file )
Best, 53, worked as a technician for the city Bureau of Development Services, said David Austin, a spokesman for Portland Commissioner Chloe Eudaly.

He was headed to his home in Happy Valley when he and two others intervened as a man began hurling epithets at two teenagers aboard a MAX Green Line train, witnesses said. The man then pulled a knife and stabbed the three men, killing two and injuring one.

Best had three teenage sons and a 12-year-old daughter, Austin said.

Best grew up in Oregon, mostly in Salem, and attended Vocational Village High School in Portland.

He met his wife at Portland Community College, and then joined the Army. He said in a voter pamphlet statement that he served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Best retired from the Army as a platoon sergeant for Corps maintenance in 2012 after 23 years in the military. He joined his family in Happy Valley and quickly became frustrated with the county board, in 2014 launching an unsuccessful campaign in which he said he would not accept donations.


In January 2015, he began working for the city as a technician.

His supervisor at the Bureau of Development Services, Kareen Perkins, said Best was a dedicated employee who was well-liked by his tight-knit team. "

YoungHegelian said...

...an atheist, confident yet humble in the search for a God-free morality. ... not an agnostic, genuinely doubtful as to the meaning of existence but always open to revelation should it arrive.

And where exactly does Sullivan find these atheists "humble" in their secular moralities? Agnostics, "open to revelation"? In Central Park, near the stables where they keep the unicorns for the kids to ride?

I'm sorry, but I don't see a lot of intellectually "humble" atheists out & about (Thomas Nagel, a big shout-out to you as a wonderful exception). Most agnostics I see just don't want to wade into the waters of theism/atheism because they know they are deep & choppy. Besides, if there's a God who gives a shit about how we live our lives, there's gonna be a lot of sinning the agnostics are going to have to cut back on. Major bummer.

Do believers live up to their beliefs? Rarely. But, atheists & agnostics as paragons of virtue? What color is the sky on your world?

Inga said...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/28/us/portland-train-stabbing-victims/

"A man with a bright future

Taliesin Myrddin Namkai Meche will be remembered as a hero by his family and many in Portland.

The 23-year-old was just starting his career. He was a compassionate young man with many plans, his sister said at Saturday's vigil.
After graduating from Portland's Reed College with a degree in economics last year, he began working at an environmental consulting agency. He had just bought a house and dreamed of getting married and having children in the future.

"He was a hero and will remain a hero on the other side of the veil. Shining bright star I love you forever," his mother Asha Deliverance, posted on Facebook."

Inga said...

"Third victim in 'really bad condition'

Micah Fletcher, 21, is being treated in a hospital with serious injuries. His mother, Margie Fletcher, told CNN affiliate KATU that the knife missed his jugular by 1 millimeter. The station tweeted photos of Micah and Margie Fletcher.

"He's in really bad condition," she said. "I'm proud of him for standing up. I'm grateful that he's here. It's hard for me to say I want people to stand up, but two girls might be alive because of them."

She said her son has intervened for others before.

"Micah's always done that," Margie Fletcher said. "I've always worried about it."

Fletcher posted a poem on his personal Facebook page Saturday evening:
"I, am alive,
I spat in the eye of hate and lived.
This is what we must do for one another
We must live for one another
We must fight for one another
We must die in the name of freedom if we have to.
Luckily it's not my turn today"

A photo posted with the poem showed a tube sticking out of Fletcher's neck.
The Oregonian reported Fletcher was taking the train to his job at a pizza shop.
He won a 2013 poetry competition with a poem against anti-Muslim prejudice, the newspaper said."

Marc Puckett said...

I haven't read the comments yet but I'll bet I'm probably the 34th person to write, 'I'm surprised you made it that far; I stopped reading AS years ago'.

AS is himself 'bereft of the legacy of Jesus', so far as I recall, in the sense that he's repudiated particular tenets of the Catholic Faith (there's a word for that), & so who knows what he's prosing on about. AA's decision to stop reading was prudent. We are many of us immune to the 'PDS' and 'TDS' but sometimes one doesn't take unnecessary chances.

traditionalguy said...

Trump was doing his Andrew Jackson impersonation talking to Gold Star families. No doubt he is a believer in the Judeo-Christian who named His Son after Joshua who was the first Hebrew commander of the Armies of conquest.

Trump's opposition are pagan pre-Christians out spirit cooking up some Alistair Crowley channeled Propaganda spell they can chant to divide American Christians from Russian Christians.

And CNN goes totally insane.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Who or what is a Taliesin Myrddin Namkai Meche? I'm guessing hippie/scandi background? Or what?

Has there been any description of what actually happened, the sequence of events? This is a very odd way for things to happen.

Paddy O said...

The show Vikings is a better representation of societies on the border of Christianity and paganism, which is where we're at.

When we isolate ethics into narrow spheres of focus, we have the ability to judge almost anyone else for not meeting up to particular standards.

If we have a holistic perspective on ethics, we're thrown into Romans 2: "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?"

Sullivan is no different than Trump. But people don't blog non-judgmental articles where someone if fair-minded and gracious. In the age of hyperbole, it's the most outlandish rhetoric that gathers attention.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

FDR is hero for failing to keep sailors at Pearl Harbor safe, while GW Bush is a villain for being complicit in the 9/11 deaths.

FDR got lucky in receiving a national tragedy that was correctible through war - a goal he accomplished par excellence.

Bush may have been unlucky for ignoring a memo that was months in the making a guy we'd been tracking for quite some time. But where he really fucked up is in allying with a party that thought it could use government action to reform a religion.

Wars against countries are things government can do. Wars against religion are things government can't do. Republicans, in their ever-present confusion, mixed up the things they wanted government to do with the things that everyone knows government can't do. Which is especially ironic for a party that thinks government - even when they're in charge of it - can't do anything!

At some level, R&B probably realizes that he is insane.

I'm just extending right-wing ideology to its logical conclusion: Uselessness.

Fen said...

Sullivan: I can see into Sarah Palin's uterus and Donald Trump's soul.

"Useful talent" - The High Sparrow, Game of Thrones

Fen said...

And apologies Andrew over Althouse jumping you about GoT. I've been having some fun with GoT quotes on her blog, and she's still holding a grudge against me for something, I forget. So take it as passive aggressive displacement.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

I wonder if Sullivan has cracked the code re a filter re lame old people.

Toss in some GoT and they immediately scurry back to drudge n' curmudgeon.

Well played.

Fen said...

I enjoy Game Of Thrones. And before I became a fan, I was very much like the critics here - just another stupid soft porn soap opera for the HBO crowd

I got hooked by a season 5 clip on youtube, where Daneris tricks the slavemasters of Astapor and uses their own slave army to slaughter them.

I've now finished catching up seasons 1-5, $20 per season at Walmart. And am grateful I didn't become a snob who never watched it.

Great chracter arcs. Area's journey from tomboy to assassin, poor Theon falling into to the abyss and His long climb out, Stannis doomed to follow Destiny into a dead end.

It has good writing and acting, and the best series I've seen since Farscape or Firefly.

So ignore the critics and give the show a chance if you are so inclined. You won't be disappointed.

ddh said...

Read the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Greek tragedies, the Aeneid, and the Metamorphases, and then tell me how non-religious pagans were.

Fen said...

"atheists, confident and humble"

Someone else already remarked on the lack of humilty so-

I don't find atheist to be at all confident. They spend all their time on social media mocking Christianity. I think the moon landing hoax crowd is bonkers, but I'm so confident that we landed on the moon, I don't feel a need to debunk those people 24/7... not even once, actually.

Fen said...

And oh, Game of Thrones is basically a sci-fi remake of the War of the Roses. So even high-brow people can appreciate it, if they allow themselves too.

Bill said...

Andrew has an operatic view of the world.

Fen said...

Arya not area. To not too. Sigh. I really wish we had and edit function.

AJ Lynch said...

Inga: I await your concern regarding the two doctors in Boston who were brutally murdered by an illegal immigrant who had avoided being deported when a librul Massachusetts judge sentenced him to less than 365 days in prison for bank robbery.

AJ Lynch said...

Readering: medicine didn't cure HIV, taxpayer money did.

Lewis Wetzel said...

"Game of Thrones is basically a sci-fi remake of the War of the Roses."
With dragons.
It is such a bad epic fantasy. Medieval Christian society without Christianity, I suppose because Martin was too lazy to create a real society from scratch. It's a pastiche universe.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Good point, AJ Lynch:

"Attorney General Maura Healey should consider taking over the prosecution of Bampumim Teixeira, the alleged cutthroat killer of those two unfortunate South Boston doctors.

Otherwise he will be prosecuted by the same people who are responsible for allowing the convicted bank robber to walk the streets of Boston when he should have been deported.

That would be Suffolk County District Attorney Daniel F. Conley, who, in a plea-bargain deal, enabled Teixeira to resume his life on the streets and wreak havoc on the lives of two innocent people.

That deal was approved by Boston Municipal Court Judge Lisa Anne Grant, a soft-hearted liberal appointed by former Gov. Deval Patrick.


Grant reduced two unarmed bank robbery charges to larceny. She then sentenced Teixeira to nine months in jail, considering time served. The sentence was actually 364 days, one day short of one year, which could have triggered action to deport Teixeira.

http://www.lowellsun.com/peterlucas/ci_31008326/peter-lucas-liberal-justice-is-no-justice-murdered#ixzz4iV1VEhiN

Trump had nothing to do with the Oregon murderer, yet Inga demands that he apologize, or take responsibility for it in some way.

Liberals were directly responsible for releasing an illegal alien back into society and he went on to murder two innocent Americans.

Conley and Grant have blood on their hands. Where is the apology, Inga?

President-Mom-Jeans said...

I see that cunt Inga is all about bloody shirt waving now, after chastising everyone else in her defense of muslim terrorists just a few days ago.

Hypocritical twat.

Fen said...

She is so despised that she was mocked in the Downfall vid - Hitler Learns That Alhouse Closed Comments. Google it.

Marc Puckett said...

Went back and read as much of AS as I could, and Dr A was quite right to call him on the pagan/pre-religious &c nonsense; AS clearly makes an illogical conflation of the notion of 'pagan' and 'non-religious' that I have to think he just didn't care enough to edit/rectify because after all what he wants is for us to understand that DJT isn't Christian, not at all, and probably never has been, and has doubtless never actually given birth to any children. Which arrogation unto himself of the right to make such judgments is, as I noted earlier, at least disconcerting coming from someone who has repudiated bi-millennial tenets of the actual Christian religion. He-- someone upthread already pointed this out-- must not watch GoT because religion or a caricature thereof plays a significant part in the 4th and 5th seasons.

Swede said...

Jill Stein was quick to tweet about the Portland attack.

Blamed it on "Trump's America", of course.

Go read the comments from billions of people pointing out that the guy voted for her.

Buy some smokes first, though.

So goddamn satisfying.

n.n said...

The Oregon abortionist is a [class] diversitist (i.e. judges people by the "color of their skin"), a Pro-Choice acolyte, and a socialist (Nazi or Dazi by the left's own admission). These are not principles (i.e. character) that can be attributed to Americans. He is a product of Democratic nurture and left-wing ideology.

That said, to our fellow Americans who were struck down by the double-edged scalpel of unqualified, unreconciled progress: RIP.

n.n said...

I don't find atheist to be at all confident.

They are predisposed to narcissism (e.g. condescension), but it varies widely by individual, and is often unrealized. They have a consensus of faith (i.e. conflation of logical domains), but lack a consensus to unite them under common principles (e.g. religious/moral philosophy).

pacwest said...

Quick note. An atheist is part of a belief system concerning knowledge of God. No different than any other religion. Fervent atheists are particularly galling. First Cause is unknowable.

n.n said...

Enough picking on the leftists today... It must have been like Christmas and New Year's all rolled into one.

A Secular Spring.

The only thing they regretted was the two young Muslim girls weren't killed.

A Secular Spring full of elective wars, catastrophic anthropogenic climate change, and Planned Immigration for the Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, etc. caught in the abortion fields.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

First Cause is unknowable

And unimportant. Principles, knowledge, adopted with faith in God or mortal gods, need to be reooncilable with moral (i.e. individual dignity, intrinsic value), natural, and personal imperatives.

furious_a said...

Game of Thrones for those who don't follow it is basically the Wars of the Roses with Dragons and Zombies. A peripatetic orphan princess plays the Henry Tudor role.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Pagans are pre-religious in the sense that only with the Abrahamic faiths did people start making such a big deal of what an individual believed. Prior to this, and in pagan societies still, there are a collection of myths and therefore, strictly speaking, beliefs in the broadest sense. But AFAIK they never placed the same emphasis on what any particular individual/"adherent" endorsed as a matter of their own, individual "faith."

Andrew Sullivan's distillation of how Trump approaches the moral ideas nearest and dearest to his own heart are spot-on.

furious_a said...

Can't tell if the manipulative, scheming Cersei Lannister represents the manipulative, scheming Margaret of Anjou or the manipulative, scheming Elizabeth Woodville.

Quaestor said...

The show Vikings is a better representation of societies on the border of Christianity and paganism, which is where we're at.

Neither Vikings nor Game of Thrones have anything but the most tenuous roots in Europe's distant past. Vikings is particularly laughable to someone with at least a nodding acquaintance with the contemporary accounts (there's very little history in the classical sense), the sagas, and the archeology.

The costuming is ridiculous. Far, far, far too much leather is being worn. If the sources and the archeology are correct the Norse didn't use much leather — belts and shoes, yes, otherwise they wore linen, often finely and colorfully embroidered, and woolens. Knitted jerseys and caps were common, and Norse women prided themselves on their knitting skill. Those Icelandic Lopapeysa sweaters with their elaborate patterns have their inspiration in 10th century Norse textiles recovered from the Oseburg ship burial. Too many boots. Real vikings didn't wear 'em. Real viking footwear can be seen in the Coppergate Museum; these are soft, low-cut shoes without heels. No boots of any kind have been found. The armor? Risible in the extreme. What armor the characters wear is protecting nothing of importance, and the most important thing you've got goes naked into battle according to the producers of the Vikings series. Real vikings wore helmets if they could afford them. A viking leader like Ragnarr Loðbrók would certainly wear a helmet, probably a quite ornate one as an emblem of his prowess as a pirate and merchant. Vikings preferred to follow the richest jarls, because their obvious wealth bespoke of successful leadership. A chieftain who didn't wear a helmet would have a difficult time recruiting a crew of gangers for his drakkar. Hair styles? More low comedy. The Norse were careful about their appearance according to some of the evidence, though one source, Ibn Fadlan, says they were "the dirtiest people created by Allah". Nevertheless, archaeologists consider one type of artifact as diagnostic of Norse occupation of a site — combs. It seems every viking had a comb made of wood or walrus ivory. They used them, broke them, and made new ones. They littered their trade routes and settlements with broken combs. Kookie Byrnes was slovenly groomed by comparison. They did not shave their heads, nor did they permit their hair to grow very long. According to the Chronicle, Saxon girls found the Danes attractive, because they were well-groomed and cleanly, an observation reinforced by language. In Icelandic, a modern tongue that would have been intelligible to Danes and Norwegians of the Viking Age, the word for Saturday is Laugardagur, "bath day".

The series Vikings has little to do with real vikings. It's basically biker culture with swords, in other words, bullshit.

furious_a said...

Who or what is a Taliesin Myrddin Namkai Meche?

"Taliesin" was a post-Roman Welsh poet. "Myrddin" was a post-Roman Welsh holy man who became Merlin in the Arthurian cycle. "Namkai Meche" sounds Tibetan Buddhist.

Lewis Wetzel said...

So, Trump is as religious as the Pope? If the Pope is one of the Borgia ones?

Lewis Wetzel said...

Quaestor wrote:
Vikings is particularly laughable to someone with at least a nodding acquaintance with the contemporary accounts (there's very little history in the classical sense), the sagas, and the archeology.
The ideas people have about the past are often derived from popular culture -- modern films, historical novels, even 19th century historical novels.
Don't get me started about female warriors. A woman traveling alone would have been a wonder in most places and times before 1900.
The Newgate Calendar is a kind of a tabloid compiled from court records around 1700. Quite gruesome, at times. People with no prospects often would become highwaymen, and not particularly competent highwaymen.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Vikings is obviously dramatized in a number of ways - including plot and attire. But contemporary writings were surely not infallible, either. A lot of other historical work is obviously needed to piece together the puzzle. Lothbrok wasn't even certain to be a real person, and possibly mythical. Nevertheless it's a great show and incites enough interest in the historical correlation to be a net positive. I'm glad it's as popular as it is and don't mind at all if we resort to historical dramatizations to at least make the history this interesting to newer viewers. Let it cause a million inquiring minds to bloom. Rome was pretty good in this way, too - and probably even more realistic when it came to set and attire.

The most important thing for these shows to convey is that people did not live then like they did now. It wasn't just a matter of grease and grime. It was a matter of what people felt they should be allowed to do and get away with, and how they made decisions that impact us to this day.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

For someone to take the sagas or any other lore as gospel, well, let's just say they might as well literally believe something as far fetched as a bible story. I'm sure there's a lot of history in there. And just as much dramatization and fictionalization.

Quaestor said...

So, Trump is as religious as the Pope? If the Pope is one of the Borgia ones?

There were only two Borgia popes, and if Trump is as religious as Alfons de Borja (reigned as Callixtus III) he should be praised by all Christians for his piety. Alfons retired Joan of Arc and vindicated her (too late for the Maid, unfortunately) and he strongly encouraged the defence of Europe against the Turks (parallels with President Trump, no?) He could justly be accused of nepotism (again the Trump parallel), but given the swamp of Italian politics (yet more parallel) trusting important duties to his kin was only prudent.

heyboom said...

Arya not area. To not too. Sigh. I really wish we had and edit function.

I don't always comment, but when I do, I usually preview my comment first before posting. There is an edit function in the preview mode.

Quaestor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Quaestor said...

I got a bit too exasperated with Toothless, so I deleted my last comment.

The most important thing for these shows to convey is that people did not live then like they did now. It wasn't just a matter of grease and grime. It was a matter of what people felt they should be allowed to do and get away with, and how they made decisions that impact us to this day.

I disagree. Vikings is misleading in this respect as well. Real scholars of the Viking Age, men like Kenneth Harl, John Heywood, and the late Magnus Magnusson have taken pains to point out how astonishingly modern the Norse really were.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Technology is most of what shapes a society, and theirs was far from modern. Their decisions and actions might have made sense from a modern standpoint - when placed within the context of what sort of a physical life they were dealing with. But that's a different story - although still an important one to tell.

And also when it comes to intellectual/social history. Vikings is most instructive when contrasting the lifestyles of the freer pagan Scandinavians against the uptight Christian English. The nature of the constant interactions depicted between those two cultures is also what makes it a useful series. Almost all re-enactments prior to the series would have placed one of them (usually English) in a more sympathetic light, and this one avoids doing that altogether. If for no other reason than that, as well as the color, cinematography and pathos, it's a valuable supplement to any televised depiction prior. The tension of the dramas involved - despite how fictionalized/embellished/imagined most of them are - is also crucial in getting people to relate to their motivations. They were not restrained by large states with the powerful kings common to most other contemporary historical actors and the reasons for their raiding and other power plays therefore translates into more direct and captivating action, as well as a more instructive viewing experience.

Quaestor said...

Vikings shoots wide of the mark on many levels. I critiqued the costumes just for starters. The series also misrepresents Norse society. It shows us an aristocratic polity dominated by kings and warlords, whereas real Norse politics was more democratic than any contemporary culture in Europe. Norse attitudes to crime and punishment are also misrepresented. Though they have a popular reputation as barbarians, the real Norse of the Viking Age were a litigious people, and law courts were routinely in session hearing civil as well as criminal complaints. The Norse did not routinely practice capital punishment, for example. Banishment was much more common. Eric the Red was banished at least three times, finally to Greenland. Common people brought complaints against even the most powerful men of their time. Sveinn "Forkbeard" Haraldsson, who was simultaneous king of Denmark and England was sued by a Northumberland farmer over the death of a prize bull. It took eleven years, but Forkbeard paid up. It is instructive to realize that the very word law is not Anglo-Saxon. It's Norse.

YoungHegelian said...

@Toothless,

Vikings is most instructive when contrasting the lifestyles of the freer pagan Scandinavians against the uptight Christian English.

You keep on harping on this topic, & it's nonsense. One, in specific, we really don't know that much about day to day religious observances of the Vikings. Christian monks wrote down the stories about the Norse Gods, but that was because they were great stories about heroes to tell on cold winter nights, not because these stories contained insight into Norse liturgical practices.

Two, in general, traditional cultures just vary in what they get uptight about, not that they get uptight. For example, the Greco-Roman world was horribly classist, & considered it a yuuuuge tragedy when one of noble birth by accident of fate ends up a slave. This theme occurs again & again in especially Roman tragedy & comedy, so it must have played well to the crowds. Remember, Aristotle says some men are slaves by nature. The Greco-Roman world believed that with every fiber of its being.

Quaestor said...

They were not restrained by large states with the powerful kings common to most other contemporary historical actors...

I think you have misunderstood the nature of Anglo-Saxon England. You have also underestimated the nature of the Norse kingdoms of Denmark and Norway.

While Alfred the Great did establish a government in Wessex that was powerful enough to justify the notion of a "king of England", that regime did not survive him. England only became England under the Danish leaders Sweyn and Knut the Great. The last Anglo-Saxon king of England, Harold Godwineson, was more than half a viking. Both Norway and Denmark were at least as large and as well-organized as any of the Saxon Heptarchy. In fact, archeology evidence suggests they were more centralized and purposefully directed than the Saxon kingdoms, examples being the so-called Trelleborgs or ring-castles. These were circular forts constructed to a fixed design which Harald Bluetooth to assemble and train the army he used to conquer a large swathe of the English Midlands. No Christian Saxon state accomplished as much before the 11th century.

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