ADDED: "[T]he man who blew himself up the previous night at an Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, England, was 23-year-old Salman Abedi, who was known to British authorities prior to the attack."
There was security at the concert, but the bomber apparently didn't try to get into the venue, instead blowing himself up in an entrance foyer area as concertgoers flooded out of the arena. Prime Minister May said the attacker had deliberately chosen "his time and place to cause maximum carnage" in the young crowd.
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420 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 420 Newer› Newest»I'd suggest taking to heart what Trump and Bush and Obama all have said, that the problem doesn't lie within Islam itself and to understand we need them to beat terrorism.
Of course the problem lies within Islam itself. It doesn't coincide with Islam, but the reason Trump calls on these Muslim political leaders to wipe out ISIS, why "we need them," is precisely because it is a Muslim phenomenon. Unlike Bush and especially Obama, Trump is willing to say that. Bush and Obama merely echoed the "religion of peace" nonsense.
MaxedOutMama: This is not Inga's "demonization", but a recognition of reality on Jordan's part. They cannot let the innocents in because they can't distinguish the innocents from the murderers. This people have an ideological plague they carry with them.
This is hard for me. One of my best friends in college, Amir - one of the best human beings I have ever met - was from Pakistan and was a Muslim. But I'm in my mid-50s. It is Islam which has changed since then. Look around. See the cheering crowds in Indonesia a day ago as those two gay guys were publicly flogged. The authorities had to get the crowd to calm down and back off, telling the CROWD that the two men being beaten were "human too".
I don't think it's that "Islam has changed since then", but that, to flog a dead cliché, "the past is never dead, it's not even past". It's not that there aren't still Muslims who are "the best human beings you have ever met" - there are plenty of them still around. I know them in my own city and community, brilliant and talented people, as well as good. But that in no way prevents me from looking around and seeing that large-scale Muslim migration to the West is invariably destructive of the culture of Western nations. People personalize this issue too much, or, probably more accurately, they personalize and "presentize" it. But it can't be understood without stepping back and getting a larger, historical perspective. (AKA "demonizing" and "othering", lol.)
I do not even need to make any value judgments about these contrasting cultures. The point here is not that Islamic cultures are bad, or good, but that they are not *mine*, and Western peoples have no obligation to turn themselves into strangers in their own lands. And that is happening because what people are and how cultures work is not a matter of those nice individuals we know, or whatever ideological slogans about the arc of history we're using right now. These are things rooted in centuries, and they're deep and enduring. And pretending they don't exist - because, hey, not all X - doesn't stop the strife these real differences inevitably cause. (Like buwaya and J.Farmer say above, Enoch Powell was right.)
One of my children has friends, educated, secular, cosmopolitan Turks, who are, understandably, dismayed by what's happening to their country. More interestingly, she claims that they are genuinely shocked by current events. I don't understand that. I'm not Turkish, nor in possession of any deep erudition about Turkish history, but I'm not surprised at all, because if I don't know much, I do know that the past isn't past. But Western, and some "westernized" minds, seem to be too used to living in the happy, clappy mindset of progressive abstractions in which possible and even probable eventualities appear as unpredictable anomalies. "How can this be happening? This shouldn't be happening!" Under such a mindset, the "solutions" will be ridiculous, ineffectual.
buwaya: They would still be winners had they not stagnated in technology and social organization for the last thousand years.
Or had the relief army reached Vienna a couple of days later than it did.
Buwaya made an excellent point in last night’s thread when he pointed out that a disproportionate amount of the Philippines’ military and security budget goes to secure peace in the Muslim majority parts of the country and the same is true in Thailand. Imagine the resources now spent in the States and Europe to keep track of those who might have ties to terrorism. In Europe, as we can see, it’s a losing battle – they simply can’t keep track of all the suspects. And, as we already know, you don’t need a lot of terrorists to create a great deal of mayhem and death.
that the problem doesn't lie within Islam itself
Sure it does, it's right there in their scriptures and in their madrassahs and on their lips as they chant Allahu Akhbar! before pressing down on the detonator or sawing through a bound captive's neck. For true believers, the State is God's State and the Army is God's Army, no daylight in between.
There was no New Testament in Islam to temper the Old Testament barbarities, and there was no Enlightenment to distinguish the Faith from the State.
Nation-building in Central Asia does not help us with the problem.
God, with a sense of humor that is quite sardonic, put a lot of the world's oil there.
I still wonder a bit at Obama and the left's heroic efforts to keep us from becoming energy independent.
Fracking, and if it ever becomes tolerated again, nuclear power would free us from any concern with the antics of the Middle East.
There was no New Testament in Islam to temper the Old Testament barbarities,
That analogy doesn't work, as it suggests Jews were and are barbaric along the lines of Islamic terrorists. While one can find in the Old Testament some barbaric-sounding stuff, the religion as actually practiced was not barbaric--certainly less so than early Christianity.
Christ himself established the distinction between church and state when he told his followers to give onto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God to God. Jesus never led an army into battle. During the past 200 years, Church and State sometimes worked in close tandem together and sometimes were at odds, but they were always recognized as separate entities.
Religion and state were combined in ancient Israel, but the destruction of the Temple and the subsequent diaspora unmoored the religion from secular power.
Islam is entirely different. Mohammed was a warrior and Islam was spread though the sword.
All the people who call for a “reformation” of Islam miss that the violence and intolerance IS the reformation. It is returning to its roots. The anomaly was the secularized Islam practiced by the wealthier classes in colonies like Egypt and Lebanon in the early part of the 20th century, as well as the somewhat laxer Islam of SE Asia.
The militancy of Islam is not a bug but a feature.
James K: " While one can find in the Old Testament some barbaric-sounding stuff, the religion as actually practiced was not barbaric-.."
The Canaanites might disagree, if you could find any.
But again, that was about 3,500 years ago so perhaps not that relevant.
"...the horror of it is that if he has not gotten out of Pakistan, they killed him. Because he really was that nice a guy. If I had the guts I'd try to track him down and find out. But I don't. Because I'm afraid he's dead."
I hope he's alive, he sounds like he is/was one of the Muslims I refer to when I speak of Muslims in general and the Muslims I know personally.
Am I a bad person for thinking Ariana Grande is probably relieved to take a break from her "World Tour"?
I probably think that because I can't take a break myself.
The Left doesn't understand the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and they don't understand this current conflict with radical Islam. And, their ignorance gets people killed.
1. Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: The Left doesn't understand that the Arab objective is to destroy Israel. The Arabs don't buy the 1948 creation of the State of Israel, and never did.
2. Radical Islam - the Left doesn't understand that the radical Muslims want to expand their empire. If they can't do it by war, then they will do it slowly through immigration. They have found some ripe targets in Europe. Countries that have abandoned all pretense of their Western origins and traditions, have embraced atheist-socialism, and are too scared to say NO.
"I hope he's alive, he sounds like he is/was one of the Muslims I refer to when I speak of Muslims in general and the Muslims I know personally"
When you speak of muslims "in general", do you include in your thoughts the actual beliefs of muslims "in general"?
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428146/more-than-few-islamic-extremists
snip: "In multiple Muslim nations, overwhelming majorities of Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy or blasphemy. Collectively, this means that hundreds of millions of men and women support capital punishment for the exercise of the basic human rights of freedom of expression and free exercise of religion:"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/?utm_term=.822544e1d6cd
Hey, if it's okay to punch a Nazi in the face, is it okay to punch an islamist supremacist in the face?
If not, why not?
But again, that was about 3,500 years ago so perhaps not that relevant.
Right, I meant by the time Jesus came along.
BTW, the real islamist war on women continues with the left saying......nothing.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3621159/paris-migrant-neighbourhoods-no-go-zone-women-male-only-bars/
Ladies, when it comes to your place on the leftist totem pole of victimology, I am afraid you fall far below that of islamist supremacists.
Of course, given that it is Paris and the women there usually vote in solid numbers for the leftist leaders who policies brought all these immigrants in, didn't demand assimilation, and don't provide security for the Western women, I guess you could say the women protesting sort of had it coming.
"When you speak of muslims "in general", do you include in your thoughts the actual beliefs of muslims "in general"?"
I don't focus on their belief system. The Muslims I know don't make their religion a center point of our friendship, neither do I. Very rarely is religion even brought up. The Muslims I know personally are generous, and kind. The Muslim women I know are professionals I've worked with and formed friendships with.
he religion as actually practiced was not barbaric--certainly less so than early Christianity.
"When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took [Jericho]. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys." -- Joshua 6: 20-21
Inga: "I don't focus on their belief system. The Muslims I know don't make their religion a center point of our friendship, neither do I. Very rarely is religion even brought up. The Muslims I know personally are generous, and kind. The Muslim women I know are professionals I've worked with and formed friendships with."
Well, I'm sure that provides a great deal of comfort to all the families who've lost love ones to beheadings, sexual slavery, gays thrown off roofs, death to apostates, mass sexual assaults in western cities, etc.
As long as you feel good about yourself, I suppose that will have to suffice.
By all means pay no attention to the larger world around you. Nothing happening there. Move on.
Inga: "I don't focus on their belief system."
They do.
Religiously, so to speak.
Drago,
"I'm sure that provides a great deal of comfort to all the families who've lost love ones to [all too true horrible acts by Islamic fanatics]"
But here's where I feel the need to argue. The Muslims I know best, have. They hate these bastards more than I ever could, short of losing loved ones as they have, and they took their lives in their hands to act against them. I'm not ready to forget them, or say they don't matter. It's not about feeling good about myself.
Angel-Dyne - Islam certainly has changed since then. All religions are in part the creations of their current believers. What's being created in Islamic lands by current believers is remarkable by western standards, but as you suggest, not remarkable at all from the perspective of the constant strain of Islamic history. It is a return to the mean.
We're trying to treat the rule as an anomaly; that's why people are being constantly surprised.
Anyone who has ever studied anything about sharia could not be surprised by these events. Dismayed, sure. But not surprised.
We're all generally tolerant until someone chooses abortion (i.e. denying life) or exhibits [class] diversity (i.e. judge people by the "color of their skin").
OT: At the Boulder Islamic Center the sign out front (with moveable letters) says:
"Moses: Islamic or Jew?"
"Well, I'm sure that provides a great deal of comfort to all the families who've lost love ones to beheadings, sexual slavery, gays thrown off roofs, death to apostates, mass sexual assaults in western cities, etc."
I'm quite sure it doesn't. Ever consider that maybe there is a Muslim parent that is mourning the loss of a daughter also, that was at that concert? And yes there are modern Muslims who do allow their daughters some freedoms. Are you aware that Muslims died as victims of the 9/11 terrorists also? These terrorists bombs don't discriminate, they kill anyone that is within distance. The Jordanian pilot that was burned alive in the cage by ISIS was also a Muslim. Non Muslim parents who have lost a child or loved one to radical Islamist terrorism probably aren't given much comfort from non stop hatred of people who are innocent of the actual murder. My Muslim friend didn't kill anyone, my Muslim doctor didn't kill anyone. Why should I hold them responsible?
"As long as you feel good about yourself, I suppose that will have to suffice."
It has nothing to do with feeling good about myself. It has to do with understanding that lumping all people who belong to a certain religion together is wrongheaded and doesn't do anything to alleviate the actual problem of radical Islamism.
*forgot the *facepalm*
Unlike Europe, most Muslims who are presently in the US tend to be professionals and many of them are more secular - or at least they appear that way to Westerners. I too know quite a few Muslims who seem quite pleasant, but I don't know what they hear at the mosque on Friday night. I don't know what websites they frequent. None of that ever concerned me - until 9/11.
Again, nobody is saying that all Muslims are awful. But they have some awful co-religionists and their faith has a track record of aggression and violence that goes all the way back to its' founder.
Once again, it's a weird sort of cultural imperialism, to assume that all peoples, are, at heart, like secularized Western liberals. Oh, yeah, they pray and go to mosque but they don't really take all that stuff in the Koran seriously, do they? No, they're too sophisticated for that!
Really? Mohammed Atta came from a middle class professional family. The poorer refugees in urban ghettoes in Paris and Malmo are rather more open in their disdain for infidels.
Mark Steyn observes, rudely, that there is no terrorism in Poland or Hungary or Slovakia because there are few Muslims in those countries. The same could be said of Mexico and Panama and so forth. These horrible inferences are difficult to erase from the consciousness if indeed you are conscious.
And the bomber could give one less of a shit about a Muslim child who was worshipping at the foot of the whore singer and enveloping herself in the culture of the worshipers of the cross.
"When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted"
Again, the issue was whether the New Testament was responsible for religions not being barbaric, and so my comment was about Judaism 2,000 years ago, not 3,500 years ago.
Inga
You misunderstand. The Muslims killed in 9-11 were in the towers of evil participating in the culture of the worshipers of the cross. They were as much targets as any other occupant. Intentionally, especially intentionally so. The same with the Muslim children at the pop concert. This branch of the "religion" is in opposition to our culture and to all those who participate in it:: especially Muslims and especially Muslim children. You have a blind spot here. Do you believe that the suicide bomber would have not blown to bits a child with a head scarf? You are very naive.
@Michael:
Mark Steyn observes, rudely, that there is no terrorism in Poland or Hungary or Slovakia because there are few Muslims in those countries.
I agree. Which is why my preferred remedy is immigration and border control. Much cheaper (and more effective!) than throwing trillions of dollars and thousands of lives down a rat in pointless, counterproductive military adventurism.
Those who aren't sufficient devout, are in a state of dhaliyah, which is basically infidel.
If these goat humping pieces of shit are getting smarter about small-scale attacks, it's trouble.
The Pulse shooting had zero to do with Islam either, and besides, what are the odds you will be a victim. Oh yeah, and I love Big Brother.
Todd said...
CJinPA said...
The West has been attacked. Again. You know what this means: Mobilize our Candle Brigade and launch a merciless barrage of weepfare.
5/23/17, 9:40 AM
Don't forget to deploy the Rapid "hashtag" Response Team, or do you think that is taking retaliation too far?
And change your FaceBook to have a Union Jack superimposed over your profile picture.
Michael said...Mark Steyn observes, rudely, that there is no terrorism in Poland or Hungary or Slovakia because there are few Muslims in those countries. The same could be said of Mexico and Panama and so forth. These horrible inferences are difficult to erase from the consciousness if indeed you are conscious.
But-but-but-the-SPLC-says-right-wing-terror-groups-are-the-real-menace!
Mexico probably isn't the best example, though: Rpt: Mexico Was 2nd Deadliest Country in 2016. Good thing we're careful about people from violent regions freely entering into our country!
Anyway that's what's called a hatefact, Michael. Noting that sort of thing can probably get you arrested in the UK. Watch yourself.
"You misunderstand. The Muslims killed in 9-11 were in the towers of evil participating in the culture of the worshipers of the cross. They were as much targets as any other occupant. Intentionally, especially intentionally so. The same with the Muslim children at the pop concert. This branch of the "religion" is in opposition to our culture and to all those who participate in it:: especially Muslims and especially Muslim children. You have a blind spot here. Do you believe that the suicide bomber would have not blown to bits a child with a head scarf?"
I think it's you who misunderstand. The Muslim victims of radical Islamists terrorists are still Muslims, despite being modern. That the Islamists don't consider them thusly doesn't mean that they weren't Muslims. No kidding that radical Islamists are in opposition to our culture. Who said they weren't? Do you think I'm defending radical Islamists? I'm defending decent Muslims from being demonized because there is a branch of their religion that are murderous lunatics.
"It's easier to assimilate if you're not demonized and isolated as a group or because of your religion. "
Yep. Once again it's our fault your precious Muslims went off and killed a bunch of innocent people.
Here's hoping the alligator turns on you next.
" My Muslim friend didn't kill anyone, my Muslim doctor didn't kill anyone. Why should I hold them responsible?"
Nobody is asking you to hold them responsible. They're asking you to look at the bigger picture and not personalize everything all the time.
Angel-Dyne is correct:
"It's not that there aren't still Muslims who are "the best human beings you have ever met" - there are plenty of them still around. I know them in my own city and community, brilliant and talented people, as well as good. But that in no way prevents me from looking around and seeing that large-scale Muslim migration to the West is invariably destructive of the culture of Western nations. People personalize this issue too much, or, probably more accurately, they personalize and "presentize" it. But it can't be understood without stepping back and getting a larger, historical perspective. (AKA "demonizing" and "othering", lol.)"
An added thought to my 3:43 comment.
Are reformed Jews less Jewish than the Orthodox? Are Catholics less Christian than Fundamentalist/ Evangelicals? There are extremes to every religion. One denomination of a religion isn't defined by it's more extreme sect.
If you can step back from looking at the nice Muslims you know and take a look at the world at large, you see that, as Samuel Huntington noted, whereever Islam rubs against another culture violence has occurred - and the violence is usually caused by Muslims.
That's true in Thailand, it's true in Africa, it's true in Sweden and France, it's true in Minnesota.
How many more lives have to be lost before a certain pattern is noticed?
J. Farmer said...
@DanTheMan:
I'd advocate taking them at their word. They are soldiers.
Soldiers captured behind friendly lines and not in uniform are spies. Convicted spies get shot.
Well, this "soldier" just blew himself to smithereens. So I'm not sure what tactical use a threat of execution would deter."
Unfortunately it is hard to deter someone who is bent on murder suicide. However some sort of collective punishment for the families of the murderers-terrorists and their collaborators might encourage others in that community to rat out the would be terrorists-murderers and their collaborators. Maybe the Korematsu decision wasn't so wrong after all in that it could be used to deal with collaborators and others close to the terrorists.
It is these incessant acts that eventually will result in extreme measures if those who promote the terrorist acts aren't harshly dealt with.
One denomination of a religion isn't defined by it's more extreme sect.
5/23/17, 3:52 PM
It is not up to you to define their religion. And the Orthodox Jews and traditionalist Catholics aren't running around committing mass murder.
Jefferson and Adams covered this over 200 years ago.
Are reformed Jews less Jewish than the Orthodox? Are Catholics less Christian than Fundamentalist/ Evangelicals? There are extremes to every religion. One denomination of a religion isn't defined by it's more extreme sect.
That's extraordinarily trivial even for you, Inga.
It's also true in China.
Rantburg is good for this stuff.
An added thought to my 3:43 comment.
Are reformed Jews less Jewish than the Orthodox? Are Catholics less Christian than Fundamentalist/ Evangelicals? There are extremes to every religion. One denomination of a religion isn't defined by it's more extreme sect."
The issue isn't whether or not the one of the sects you mentioned is extreme. The issue is whether or not the "extremist" in the sect engage in constant violence against others.
Vlad the Impaler got his name for a reason.
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal,Inga. A quarter of them favor living under Sharia law in the UK.
Sounds to me like that's more than just a little fringe extremist group, although I'm sure many of those people would not commit terrorist acts themselves. The point is that they hold values inimical to modern Western society.
And no, that is not the same as Christians opposing gay marriage or not wanting to bake a wedding cake for gays. I don't know of any major Christian denomination that wants to outlaw homosexuality or live under the laws of Levitius.
"It is not up to you to define their religion. And the Orthodox Jews and traditionalist Catholics aren't running around committing mass murder.
And then it's not up to you to define Islam either, is it? Moderate Muslims aren't running around committing mass murder either, that is where your logic fails you.
Is there a current religious equivalent to radical Islam?
The left would like you to think so, you deplorable crusaders.
Moderate Muslims aren't running around committing mass murder either, that is where your logic fails you.
5/23/17, 4:04 PM
Once again, tell me of a good way to tell the difference between a Muslim refugee who is a "moderate" from one who wants to kill infidels.
But what about their children?
Critical mass is a tricky thing.
Moderate Muslims aren't running around committing mass murder either, that is where your logic fails you.
Inga, if I had a bowl of M&Ms and one of them was poisoned, would you eat one ?
How about if 10% of them were poisoned ?
20% ?
J. Farmer said...
"@Rusty:
If they are going to refer to themselves as "soldiers" then perhaps we should treat them all as potential soldiers.
Who is "them all?" And what would that policy actually look like in the real world? In other words, what precisely are you advocating?"
Oh no you don't.
When am I not a potential victim?
current religious equivalent to radical Islam
Pro-Choice. Elective wars. Elective abortions. [class] diversity. Imperial ambitions. Anti-nativism.
That said, Islam needs to be separated into three components: religion (i.e. moral philosophy), faith (e.g. twilight), and traditions (e.g. cultural).
Same with Pro-Choice, which is the "secular" choice of many groups including atheists, reformed Jews, progressives, liberals, libertarians, etc. It really doesn't matter who the philosopher is, mortal gods, etc. What matters is their principles or character realized in behaviors. Not all will radicalize, but "content of character" is the best predictor.
"Moderate Muslims aren't running around committing mass murder either, that is where your logic fails you."
Fail. The analogy you were making was Reform Jews and liberal Christians are to Orthodox Jews and Fundamentalist Christians as moderate Muslims are to Radical Muslims. But Radical Muslims are nail-bombing 8-year-olds, Orthodox Jews and Fundamentalist Christians are not. The fact that moderate Muslims are not doing so is irrelevant.
Talk about a logic failure....
I don't believe you are defending decent muslims who are being demonized. I think you are tilting at strawmen because it provides opportunity to don a mantle of righteousness, a mantle you need to compensate for the ugly way you treat the "deplorables" in this country.
That was the first thing that stuck out in last night's thread - you were on a mission to stop the demonization of Muslim innocents, but no one in the thread was demonizing them. It took me a moment of searching the thread before I realized you were responding to a narrative you had created in your own head. You were deliberately distorting remarks others had made and using wronged Muslims as a prop to promote your self esteem.
It's very similar to the Catholic practice of Insurgences. "Maybe I'm a trator to my own country who supports a coup against a duly elected President... But I stood against demonizing innocent Muslims so I'm not a total douche"
Some thoughts:
Consider the two times that Western Civilization has fought a murderous, evil religion: the Aztecs and the Kamikaze Japanese.
I liken today's leftists apologizing for Islam to them apologizing for Aztecs. Were all Aztecs murderers who tore the beating heart out of their victims? Not at all--Montezuma actually seems to have been a decent sort, really.
But plenty of Aztecs did think killing people was a religious duty--just as Islam does. Tlaloc and Allah--not too far apart. I don't know but Inga, would you defend various practicing Aztecs moving into, say, New York? Or is it a good thing Cortez eliminated them?
I fear we will have to resort to treating Islam as Aztec.
Second: Christianity is not a "suicide pact." Jesus did talk about peace and turning the other cheek.... He also talked about the time we would need to beat our plowshares into swords. Standard Christian theology holds that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament (to varying degrees, of course). That means that Jesus occasionally did order a large battle. The time will come when we followers of Jesus will again bring out the swords.
Third: I suspect most Muslims are in fact slaves; and a good solid missionary campaign would net millions of souls. I would prefer to engineer one of those first... and once all the sheep of the Lord are collected out of the Islamic world, then we can burn it with fire.
--Vance
Indulgences not insurgencies stupid autocorrect.
The other side of this matter, is that Iranian Muslims would probably all quit the religion if given the opportunity. Does that tell you anything?
Mosque attendance is at 2% now in Iran. Aside from the mullahs and the IRG, nobody is interested in Islam.
The Iranian birth rate has crashed. It is lower than western Europe and it was at about 6 before the Revolution of 1979.
"The West has been attacked. Again. You know what this means: Mobilize our Candle Brigade and launch a merciless barrage of weepfare."
I agree with the commenter who wrote this and hope the commenter applies the same contempt to the "thoughts and prayers" weepfare that inevitably follows mass shootings in this country.
"that inevitably follows mass shootings in this country."
Considering most have been by Muslims, not a bad analogy.
Since we are now classified as "Crusaders" I guess we should be better armed. Better prepared. Better organized and take some initiative instead of being passive targets.
The Crusaders took the battle TO the Muslims. I suggest we do the same. Horses might be a bit passe.....Harley's and Indian motorcycles FTW!!!
Inga
It is estimated that 10% of Muslims worldwide are sympathetic to ISIL and terrorism as a means of achieving dominance. That number is equal to four times the size of California's population. The size of France. As Michael K asks would you dip your hand into a bowl, even a very very large bowl of M&Ms if you knew that 10% would kill you? BTW the other 90% are harmless, in fact delicious.
Principled alignment is one consideration or the left's preferred judgment: "color of skin". The former has been demonstrated to be a better predictor of behavior than the latter, but it does not determine radicalization.
That said, the current issues are several fold. One, immigration reform (e.g. refugee crises) to coverup collateral damage from elective wars. Two, immigration reform to force demographic gerrymandering (e.g. democratic leverage). Three, immigration reform as a mode of insourcing (e.g. redistributive change). Four, immigration reform to compensate for selective-child and social dysfunction. Five, immigration that exceeds the rate of assimilation and integration (before selective-child). Six, avoidance or prevention of emigration reform. The proponents of immigration reform are hopelessly lost in conflicts of interest.
And now the innocent refugee narrative takes a hit:
The bomber was born in Manchester to parents who had come as innocent refugees from Lybia, escaping Kadafi.
I'm sure they were sweet neighbors who had nothing to do with radicalizing him against the West. Must have been the BBC.
If anyone had taken me up on my (2:1) bet last night they would be a bit richer.
"Salman Ramadan Abedi, a Mancunian of Libyan descent"
So, not a Paki, but an Arab.
my point being that we treat all of them like they're soldiers along with their families and we don't allow them into this country-from any predominately muslim country.
Maybe then the "moderate" muslims will start to police their own extremist 'soldiers' so that we don't have to retroactively. Force them to earn the privelege of being here. Maybe then they'll respect our laws and customs.
it isn't the muslim extremists who hand out candy when extremists commit acts of terror on the west. It is the moderate muslims who celebrate
"Moderate Muslims aren't running around committing mass murder either, that is where your logic fails you."
Moderate Germans weren't gassing the Jews and moderate Japanese weren't crashing airplanes into ships...so what's your point?
"So why were Londoners so unfazed by the Blitz? Because 40,000 deaths and 46,000 injuries--spread across a metropolitan area of more than eight million people--means that there were many more 'remote misses' who were emboldened by the experience of being bombed than there were near misses who were traumatized by it....
"When it has happened...and we are now safe, the contrast between the previous apprehension and the present relief and feeling of security promotes a self-confidence that is the very father and mother of courage....
"It was not the privileged and the fortunate who took in the Jews in France. It was the marginal and the damaged, which should remind us that there are real limits to what evil and misfortune can accomplish. If you take away the gift of reading, you create the gift of listening. If you bomb a city, you leave behind death and destruction. But you create a community of remote misses. If you take away a mother or a father, you cause suffering and despair. But one time in 10, out of that despair rises an indomitable force. You see the giant and the shepherd in the Valley of Elah and your eye is drawn to the man with the sword and the shield and the glittering armor. But so much of what is beautiful and valuable in the world comes from the shepherd, who has more strength and purpose than we ever imagine."
From 'David and Goliath' by Malcolm Gladwell
buwaya
"paki?" Can't say "paki" . bad think. racist. if you were in the UK you would be hearing from the police.
Why are we required to let anybody in? Because the Democrats have bet the farm on identity politics.
Yes that's probably fair
tps://www.google.com/amp/heavy.com/news/2017/05/salman-abedi-didsbury-mosque-islamic-centre-islam-muslim-isis-sharia-father-abu-ismail/amp/
"Why are we required to let anybody in?"
Statue of Liberty.
The UK Terrorist Threat Level is currently "critical".
Oddly enough it's not due to any threats from deplorable and irredeemable Trump supporters.
Trump is a loser if he doesn't nuke Mecca. If he won't, all his talk about keeping the "bad hombres" out is bullshit. We have no reason to coexist with those enemies of humanity. But the King gave him a medal and let him touch his ball!
"Why are we required to let anybody in?"
"Statue of Liberty."
Yes, of course. We all find the inscription quite stirring: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe Sharia, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, prone to terrorist attacks, tempest-tossed and refusing to assimilate to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door and I vow to forever wear the hijab."
Brookzene, thanks for reminding me...
New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
Emma Lazarus
Your fear.
"But the King gave him a medal and let him touch his ball!"
Only one?
I wouldn't recommend drawing too much attention to our cultural sites as there are many in the Islamic world dedicated to their destruction.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2015/03/09/world/iraq-isis-heritage/index.html
I'd rather die in a terrorist attack at some mall or concert than live gutlessly, betraying the values that made us great.
And right on cue sexual jokes against Trump in a thread about Islamic mass murder against western women and children.
As usual.
Of course, there have always been those values that made us smaller. And some people always claimed them to their shame.
Brookzene: "I'd rather die in a terrorist attack at some mall or concert than live gutlessly, betraying the values that made us great."
Unfortunately those children will never grow to an age where they can vote on such a policy.
Brookzen is willing to "courageously" fight to the last schoolgirl.
Impressive.
Actually I thought the King let Trump touch the King's ball. The ball wasn't Trump's.
Inga,
"Moderate Muslims aren't running around committing mass murder either, that is where your logic fails you."
But they are advocating sharia law, and supporting the fatwas on Rushdie and Hirsan-Ali, etc.
The interesting thing is that both the right and left disparage "The New Colossus" these days, but in very different ways and for very different reasons.
In most California schools (California is the future, note) it would be considered fighting words - that is, if even the teachers can decipher its meaning. But that is a different problem.
Not because it encourages immigrants, but because it makes moral claims about America that are anathema to the prevailing orthodoxy. America, in the public schools, is an evil place full of enemies, hardly a "golden door". It seems it is the duty of the public schools to make their immigrant students understand their misfortune.
Your citation is thoroughly obsolete.
"Brookzen is willing to "courageously" fight to the last schoolgirl."
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Was that a liberal who said that?
DBQ suggests: Since we are now classified as "Crusaders" I guess we should be better armed. Better prepared. Better organized and take some initiative instead of being passive targets.
The Crusaders took the battle TO the Muslims. I suggest we do the same. Horses might be a bit passe.....Harley's and Indian motorcycles FTW!!!
To the battlements!
Brookzene: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
What essential liberty for US citizens would be sacrificed by limiting Muslim immigration?
Besides, the left teaches that Franklin is one of those horrible founders of the horrific United States.
You can't even wave American flags at some events in CA because it's a symbol of hate to the left.
Brookzene said...
I'd rather die in a terrorist attack at some mall or concert than live gutlessly
In related news Stephen Ambrose is working on a new project: Armchair Heroes.
There have been many intelligent comments by people familiar with history in this thread detailing exactly why the Muslim immigrants are different than the earlier Ellis Island immigrants, why the country is different and why Muslim refugee immigration is much different from say, the Jewish immigration of the 1930's.
And the response to to drag out Emma Lazarus' poem.
In other words, Fen is right, Inga. It really is all about virtue signaling and needing to feel superior with you. Not the realities of the world or history or common sense. You don't really read other people's responses. You don't consider or effectively rebut their arguments - because you want so badly to believe we hate ALL Muslims and you're on the side of the good and tolerant. And you're willing to risk the lives of other Americans to prove it.
Mass immigration to this country was shut down in the early 1920's (despite the poem) and stayed in effect until 1965. Democratic pols don't give a shit about Emma Lazarus - they want mass immigration because they want votes. Globalist GOP pols also don't give a shit about Emma Lazarus - they want cheap labor. But the sentimentalists and the sanctimonious fall for it.
The Crusaders took the battle TO the Muslims. I suggest we do the same. Horses might be a bit passe.....Harley's and Indian motorcycles FTW!!!
To the battlements!"
Get yer motor runnin', head out on the highway....
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
Sadly, we all give up liberty for safety these days. We do not speak freely because we can so easily be made to suffer for it. Livelihoods depend on it. That is all of us.
Free speech in the US is nearly dead. Its telling that there are places where the median income is a fifth as much, and death squads are a fact of life, where speech is yet free.
What you object to trading, is already traded.
"Brookzene said...
I'd rather die in a terrorist attack at some mall or concert than live gutlessly, betraying the values that made us great."
What a fucking steaming pile.
The Colossus means a great deal to me as an immigrant and it's more important now than ever to remember what this country's values are. If you want to see that as virtue signaling, we'll, that's your right.
Inga: "The Colossus means a great deal to me as an immigrant and it's more important now than ever to remember what this country's values"
Our values have never included letting in hundreds and thousands of individuals who want to destroy us and bury us with our values.
Inga's posturing is virtue signalling in stilts.
"The Colossus means a great deal to me as an immigrant and it's more important now than ever to remember what this country's values are."
It is no longer intellectually respectable.
The very opposite in fact, it is held to be offensive.
It is as obsolete as Longfellow's "Hiawatha".
Moderate Muslims aren't running around committing mass murder either, that is where your logic fails you.
This is only true because the they are redefined as not moderate after they kill someone. But I'm interested in this analysis. Doesn't this imply the extreme doesn't taint the body? Yet that's the exact opposite of her position on non-left Americans. In that case she believes we should vote against Republicans because some support implementing The Handmaid's Tale.
So when are these groups separate and when linked? Does death create this special protection or do Muslims receive it as a favored victim group?
Inga,
"Moderate Muslims aren't running around committing mass murder either, that is where your logic fails you."
Again, how exactly do you vet these people? Inga talks about "sects" like there is a "Syrian Synod of Islamic Nutjobs" that all the kooks belong to and they have little membership cards they'll gladly show you.
To make it even more clear, "The Colossus" is no longer useful even for virtue signalling.
Inga said...
The Colossus means a great deal to me as an immigrant"
Were any of your people setting off nail bombs, shooting their fellow employees and people in nightclubs and vowing to destroy this country?
Mine neither.
"It is no longer intellectually respectable.
The very opposite in fact, it is held to be offensive."
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't share it and I consider your comment offensive. My family became citizens and served this country, it obviously means far more and something quite different to me than to you.
Again, the Islamic supremacists murder, main and enslave and the left stands up for them and demands they be let in.
No wonder the jihadis believe they will win.
Inga said...
And then it's not up to you to define Islam either, is it? Moderate Muslims aren't running around committing mass murder either, that is where your logic fails you.
The vast majority of Muslims in the world alive today have/are participating in genocide and ethnic cleansing. Every single majority Muslim country has rid itself of at least 1 minority with the acceptance and encouragement or the majority of the muslim people in that country.
<a href="https://www.christiantoday.com/article/1000.churches.closed.in.aceh.indonesia.since.2006/71165.htm>Even in Indonesia where they are currently participating.</a>
Please name a single Islamic nation that hasn't wipe out at least one minority group. Then lets talk about a "majority" of peaceful muslims.
Inga: "You're entitled to your opinion. I don't share it and I consider your comment offensive."
It's not his opinion. It's now orthodoxy on the left, making your "offensive" charge exquisitely amusing.
Just try get Emma Lazarus poem into an SFUSD or LAUSD school these days.
The teachers, if some could be found with a capacity understand it, would drip acid on it, and you.
Inga is apparently blissfully unaware that situational talking points are considered racist and imperialist on the left.
Lol
Brookzene: "I'd rather die in a terrorist attack at some mall or concert than live gutlessly, betraying the values that made us great."
Those children weren't give a chance to decide that, were they?
Some of them didn't die. They are in hospitals and I don't think their main concern right now is "the values that made us great."
Imagine what a nail bomb did to those young faces and limbs.
"You're entitled to your opinion."
No doubt. Still, that is not MY opinion.
That is the prevailing opinion of the intellectual class.
America, in the current view of things, is a sick and twisted place, as it has always been, and all the immigrant children need to be constantly warned of its evil, and especially that of its majority residents.
Brookzene said...
I'd rather die in a terrorist attack at some mall or concert than live gutlessly, betraying the values that made us great.
Absolute garbage. We live free in this country because people went out and fought for them. Let me guess, you were not one of them.
Besides given how violent the left is and the widespread attempts to suppress speech it doesn't like here in this country I don't think you value these freedoms that MAKE us great.
The SFUSD response, one of them, and I know of this firsthand, would be to take their kids to Angel Island ("The Ellis Island of the West") and there have a little lesson on Emma Lazarus, the statue of liberty, the fact that the people who came in through New York harbor were nearly all white, and that Angel Island proves that America hates Asians and always will, so they should always be on guard around white people, who owe them for ancient insults vs their predecessors.
This is to recent Asian immigrant kids, mind you.
Inga finds herself in a tough spot.
She has declared an idea that is one if the primary animating ideas on the left as offensive.
What to do, what to do?
"You're entitled to your opinion."
"No doubt. Still, that is not MY opinion.
That is the prevailing opinion of the intellectual class.
America, in the current view of things, is a sick and twisted place, as it has always been, and all the immigrant children need to be constantly warned of its evil, and especially that of its majority residents."
That too is your opinion, doesn't make it truth.
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't share it and I consider your comment offensive. My family became citizens and served this country, it obviously means far more and something quite different to me than to you.
Reality and anyone who recognizes it and speaks the truth is offensive to the left.
Name 1 mulsim majority country that has not wiped out in is not now persecuting a minority population. And yes I include women and gay people.
"That too is your opinion, doesn't make it truth.'
That is the testimony of an eye-witness, me.
This is California, it is the future.
You may want to check out what is being taught in your public schools.
Granted, you seem to be in Wisconsin, among a white population, so they may not be as intense there.
The idea that the left finds the principle the Colossus speaks of being abhorrent to the left is nothing more than nonsense. Simply a narrative that you seem to want to push. It's fiction.
Brookzene said...
"I'd rather die in a terrorist attack at some mall or concert than live gutlessly, betraying the values that made us great. "
What you are failing to realize is that those values are not a suicide pact. There are somethings that our constitution obligates that the state do for us and that is to protect us. If protecting us means screening people that want to come then I'm all for it. As I said before, admission to this country is a privilege that must be earned.
I'll ask you. What guarantees can you give me that I won't be a victim of Islamic terrorism?
I'd rather die in a terrorist attack at some mall or concert than live gutlessly, betraying the values that made us great.
You don't get to choose. You may get to die gutlessly, betraying the values that made us great.
" the principle the Colossus speaks of being abhorrent to the left is nothing more than nonsense."
It is nonsense, but it is dogma. America is evil, that is the message.
It is the very opposite of a message of assimilation.
Like I said, you have to be a witness, to see this firsthand.
"Granted, you seem to be in Wisconsin, among a white population, so they may not be as intense there."
Buwaya, if this has been your experience, I'm sorry for you. Wisconsin is a long way away from California and I haven't seen it or heard of it being out of favor. It's still taught in Public Schools as far as I know. I'll have to ask my daughter if my grandchildren were not taught the poem or the principle.
"That too is your opinion, doesn't make it truth"
You have not paid much attention to the current state of American education if you don't know that.
I found the attitude shocking, myself, when I heard this sort of thing decades ago (its been going on a long time).
Don't be sorry for me, I'm a grown (over-grown) man, and not American.
I am sorry for those little kids.
Imagine all those generations, getting acid poured in their ears.
Saudi Arabia is not going to allow in refugees from Syria, unfortunately. Jordan and Turkey have and it's a huge challenge for Jordan. The problem in the Saudi view is tribal and bad experiences with Palestinians (first Gulf War) and the Moslem brotherhood Egyptian refugees that laid the foundation for Al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia. And as far as I can tell, the Syrian Christian refugees have been ignored. My daughter's High School French Teacher was from Syria (Christian), and her husband was from Palestine. I hope her family is OK.
What is amazing is after WW2, with all the ethnic cleansing / refugee flows in Europe, how the descendants have assimilated and become part of the local population they moved to. Nothing like what has happened in the ME since 49.
Inga, I am not a spring chicken and I encountered plenty of radical anti-American professors when I went to college. I was a liberal arts major so I probably saw more of it than you did.
I doubt you ever were assigned Howard Zinn. I was.
"Who is the most influential historian in America? Could it be Pulitzer Prize winners Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. or Joseph Ellis or David McCullough, whose scholarly works have reached a broad literary public? The answer is none of the above. The accolade belongs instead to the unreconstructed, anti-American Marxist Howard Zinn, whose cartoon anti-history of the United States is still selling 128,000 copies a year twenty years after its original publication. Many of those copies are assigned readings for courses in colleges and high schools taught by leftist disciples of their radical mentor. - See more at: http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/1493#sthash.dUkKeD9w.dpuf
Buwaya,
One thing I can say with certainty about the public schools in my county, if the history program is anti America the parents would pitch a fit.
I was assigned Zinn in grad school, but his text is standard in college courses these days.
You think there is no anti-Americanism in Madison, Inga?
Let's ask Ann about that.
You don't get to do that. You don't get to appropriate the military service of your ancestors - wrapping yourself in their honor - while supporting a coup against a duly elected President of the United States.
Inga said...
Buwaya,
One thing I can say with certainty about the public schools in my county, if the history program is anti America the parents would pitch a fit."
That's because you live in one of the most conservative counties in Wisconsin. There's a certain irony in not knowing about anti-Americanism in schools because you live among conservatives.
I must have missed the history lesson where we found out when and how a New York poetastrix, who managed to get a public works commission to en-plaque her efforts on a statue (a gift from France that was not about immigration), was installed as the royal, eternal arbiter of American immigration policy.
I wasn't even aware that "The New Colossus" had been entered into the Constitution. But arguments based on this assumption are adduced with such conviction by so many, that surely it must be so.
(I know our hostess is on the warpath against insults and ad hominems, but, dear God, the "Emma Lazarus" argument is so deeply stupid that there is really nothing else to say about it.)
I don't live in Madison, I don't know about anti America sentiment in the Public School system there either. I tend to think this notion is blown out of proportion. My grandsons that do live in Madison are just three and 5 months old. The only poems at daycare are Twinkle Twinkle Litlle Star, pretty safe.
"One thing I can say with certainty about the public schools in my county, if the history program is anti America the parents would pitch a fit."
Good for them, and your kids are fortunate.
But that is not the case for the bulk of the country, or for the bulk of the kids.
I keep talking about California, because demographically and intellectually it is the future.
There are a huge lot of kids in California. Its got between 1 in 5 to 1 in 6 of all kids enrolled in US K-12. And this problem is not limited to California, far from it.
It is a future you should worry about.
The message those kids are getting is as I said, extremely divisive, anti-patriotic, subversive.
And Buwaya, living in one of the most left-wing areas of the country, is very aware of anti-Americanism being taught in the schools.
Certain conclusions can be drawn....
"I wasn't even aware that "The New Colossus" had been entered into the Constitution. But arguments based on this assumption are adduced with such conviction by so many, that surely it must be so."
It's an American ideal. The rest of your comment is not worth responding to.
Some time back I worked in an office that was populated by a few Muslims. I didn't know them that well, but they seemed like nice people. In NYC, you meet people from all kinds of backgrounds, and they were perhaps not the least assimilated group I encountered. Then came 9/11. It changed relationships. Mass murder does that........I'm pretty sure all the Muslims I know are solidly against murdering little girls. That's not such a high bar. I wonder how many Muslims, though, would be willing to mock Ahmad, the Clock Boy, and his absurd posturings. Maybe Goldstar Khan could hold the Constitution in one hand and a cartoon of Mohammed in the other to remind us all that the guarantees of the constitution apply not just to Muslims but to the irreverent as well......The Muslims I know seem like decent people, but, outside of mass murder, I don't see a broad band that pushes back against the extreme positions of their faith. There's a lot of social pressure to make the women wear the scarves and hijabs. Where's the social pressure among them to drop these garments. I don't see much of a tug of war going on.
"...and when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin , righteousness and judgement."(John 16:8) is Jesus' red letter explanation for the Holy Spirit that He promised to send.
All religions deal with Sin, Righteousness and Judgement of God. The books of Moses do that in two parts: first they set an impossible standard that only reveals men are sinner that are condemned to Judgement, and second the establish a Temple Alter for sacrifices to ATONE for men's sin offered by a certain authorized High Priest ( Cohens).
The stupid Arab caravan raider/ war lord named Muhammed copied Moses's first part but left off the second part.The Arabs are stuck under a horrible Judgement...unless they slaughter infidels as the sacrifice for their atonement hoping that works to lift the condemnation.
Christians are the ones under Moses Laws who found the good news that Jesus was the the oldest High Priest (from the Melchizedek Order) who offered Himself as the blood sacrifice once forever by the Eternal Spirit, for our atonement. End of story.
"It's an American ideal."
No, it's a sentimental poem. Angel-Dyne is right that we certainly should not be basing policy decisions on it.
I doubt the Americans of the 1920's thought they weren't living up to their ideals because they ignored Emma's poem and halted mass immigration. They acted in what they believed was the nation's best interest. And even before that, people were turned back at Ellis Island. Nobody just waltzed in.
Contrary to what Obama said, controlling who came into the country was very much who we were.
"Known Wolves: I would be very interested to know, and compare, the ratios of false positives to false negatives in the US and in our western European allies. Quite a few recent attacks followed by counterterrorism officials replying like Basil Exposition: "Yes, we knew all along, sadly."
One thing I've noticed is that many of these guys had trouble with their women and their women went to the police who backed up the women. That might be a sorting factor. You could have the ideology but be guy who encouraged others to be martyrs. But then your life disintegrates in way which it would not disintegrate in Islamic countries (you think) because there the police would not care if you hit your wife (You think. I think it's not quite so simple in real Islamic life). Anyhow you have the ideology and now you are emotional, your life is wrecked and you suicide-martyr.
This guy went in the door where parents were picking up children so he intended to kill children. Be interesting to see if his wife kept him away from his children or some such involvement.
exiledonmainstreet: I was assigned Zinn in grad school, but his text is standard in college courses these days.
My kids got the Howard Zinn song-and-dance right through middle and high school. We lived in blue islands in red states, not in California. Fortunately, our kids made it through while the math and science curricula were still intact, and it was easy enough to counter the PC pabulum they got in "social science" classes with, ahem, highly subversive independent reading programs. (Easy to get your kids to tuck into, since PC content is deadly dull, and engrossing non-PC history is easy to acquire.)
The math and science programs went to hell right as my kids were finishing their public school careers. It was like some disaster movie, getting out just in time, and seeing the structures crash and crumble into dust over one's shoulders, as one ran for the hills from the forces of idiocracy.
Angel-Dyne said...
I wasn't even aware that "The New Colossus" had been entered into the Constitution.
Steve Sailer calls that dumb poem the "Zeroth Amendment".
Speaking of muslims, which is worse:
Jimmy Dean Sausage or Sir Francis Bacon?
exiledonmainstreet: I doubt the Americans of the 1920's thought they weren't living up to their ideals because they ignored Emma's poem and halted mass immigration.
Then they weren't Real Americans. (Kinda like the people who were Christians during the millenium + when Christianity was a religion of the sword weren't Real Christians.) Americans, like Christians, did not exist until c. 1968. (There were a few exceptions in both cases, and they appear to have colonized all the pages of chidlren's history texts.)
Contrary to what Obama said, controlling who came into the country was very much who we were.
Obama was one of the front men for the project of making sure that who we are is absolutely cut off from any continuity with who we were.
If you all think I'm kidding, this is a suggested lesson plan from KQED (which runs the main SF Bay Area PBS and NPR stations) for the ubiquitous Angel Island tour - much like the Ellis Island tour would be in NYC.
http://www.kqed.org/w/pacificlink/lessonplans/poems.pdf?trackurl=true
This is about poems left behind by Chinese detainees at Angel Island.
buwaya: "I found the attitude shocking, myself, when I heard this sort of thing decades ago (its been going on a long time). "
I was one of those CA public school kids sitting in classes as teachers brought in Marxists to tell us of the wonders of Castro's revolution. The fact that I had read and could discuss "The Gulag Archipelago" was not welcome even way back then.
It was already "America Was Never Great" in those venues.
Go ahead and Google that phrase Inga. You will find thousands of links to your fellow leftists pitching that Marxist claptrap.
My own kids have attended schools in California, Virginia, Texas, Florida and Colorado and it's everywhere now.
Angel-Dyne: "The math and science programs went to hell right as my kids were finishing their public school careers. It was like some disaster movie, getting out just in time, and seeing the structures crash and crumble into dust over one's shoulders, as one ran for the hills from the forces of idiocracy."
My youngest are in private schools only now. Nothing but Singapore Math, classic language arts and real history. None if this Marxist intersectionalist BS the snowflakes are all majoring in.
Anyway, re Muslims all over again, if you are going to have them, you need to assimilate them, and you have extremely defective means to do so.
The absolute minimum tradeoff for getting more Muslims in is an intense and effective patriotic education. This will require revolutionary reform of the public schools, and moreso of the entire system that trains teachers, and teachers of teachers, and teachers of teachers of teachers. Howard Zinn should be right out.
The US has been rather lucky in its Muslims so far, those it has have been, overall, the creme de la creme, compared to most that have made it to Europe in the last thirty-forty years. But you are now getting in a rather different class of them.
Fernandinande to me: "I wasn't even aware that "The New Colossus" had been entered into the Constitution."
Steve Sailer calls that dumb poem the "Zeroth Amendment".
Perfect.
Speaking of muslims, which is worse:
Jimmy Dean Sausage or Sir Francis Bacon?
The non-sir Francis Bacon is the wurst.
"Go ahead and Google that phrase Inga. You will find thousands of links to your fellow leftists pitching that Marxist claptrap."
I've heard conservatives make the accusation many times. As I said earlier, I think the accusation is greatly overstated. I see my daughter and grandkids on Friday, I'm going to ask her (she's a conservative and an involved parent, living in the most conservative county in WI) what she thinks about the kid's history/social studies program in my grandkids public schools, two in elementary school, one in high school.
"The math and science programs went to hell right as my kids were finishing their public school careers."
My grandson's fourth grade teacher told his mother she could not figure out the "New Math." She could not work the problems the kids were expected to do. She suggested to my daughter-in-law that she teach math at home using traditional methods.
Both kids are in charter schools now, thank God.
Again, Inga, the fact that you live in a very conservative county has something to do with why your kids aren't being taught anti-American crap. But the rest of the country is not Waukesha county.
Drago: My youngest are in private schools only now. Nothing but Singapore Math...
Ah yes, Singapore Math, I'd forgotten we did have recourse to Singapore Math in our last year in one city, when one of our kids' got hit with a "new, improved" (aka appallingly dumbed-down) grade-school program. My kid came home on the first day of school with what I thought must be some kind of mistake - the fourth-graders' math texts had been mysteriously switched with the first-graders'? Nope. We had to whip up a "home schooling" program for math, pronto. God bless the people who peddle the Singapore Math series. I recommend them to anyone who fears their kid will be left innumerate by "math in context" and the like.
Angel-Dyne: "My kid came home on the first day of school with what I thought must be some kind of mistake - the fourth-graders' math texts had been mysteriously switched with the first-graders'? Nope. We had to whip up a "home schooling" program for math, pronto"
My breaking point with public schools in CA for my kids came when my oldest was assigned to do a collage for math.
I pulled my child out the next day and home schooled.
Just so you know, I attended public schools in the Bay Area and San Diego while my kids attended school in San Diego and Monterey CA.
Finally. The kind of chaotic destruction and violence that gives the right-wing a sense of meaning.
They live for this stuff.
Once again, tell me of a good way to tell the difference between a Muslim refugee who is a "moderate" from one who wants to kill infidels.
Well, if they're not running around plotting to kill infidels then that might be a good tell.
If they're calling in reports and bringing would-be infidel-killers to justice, then that might be another good tell. Perhaps not as celebrity-seeking or limelight-hogging a spotlight as you would like, but pretty damn important nonetheless.
Islam has a bad ideology embedded within it, but I can't understand why right-wingers believe everyone's motivated by ideology. Or religion. People might not live by bread alone but bread is still pretty fucking important.
Some people are actually able to overcome their cultural baggage, regardless of what your childhood role models told you. And in this case, you're going to have to bank on it - since Trump and his cheerleaders and henchmen are sure to do their damnedest to keep disempowering reformers.
"It's an American ideal."
No, it's a sentimental poem.
Time to send all non-pre-Columbian immigrants back to their sentimental countries of origin.
Angel-Dyne is right that we certainly should not be basing policy decisions on it.
I doubt the Americans of the 1920's thought they weren't living up to their ideals because they ignored Emma's poem and halted mass immigration. They acted in what they believed was the nation's best interest. And even before that, people were turned back at Ellis Island. Nobody just waltzed in.
Dancing, let alone waltzing, wasn't really the thing at Plymouth Rock.
These folks seem to believe that immigration policy wasn't even centralized, let alone well controlled, until 1864.
As I understand it, conservatives yearn for an actual past. Not an imagined one.
Thanks for setting me straight.
Everyone is not motivated by religion. But the jihadis sure are. And unfortunately they're not wearing "Hi, my name is Mohammed and I want to kill you" badges. It doesn't take many terrorists to kill a lot of people.
"It's an American ideal."
No, it's a sentimental poem.
Apparently the founders' ancestors came here for all the wrong reasons. Someone should get to work on correcting that history.
Stop being an asshole,TTR.
Everyone is not motivated by religion. But the jihadis sure are. And unfortunately they're not wearing "Hi, my name is Mohammed and I want to kill you" badges. It doesn't take many terrorists to kill a lot of people.
It doesn't take a whole lot of alienation and intimidation of a community to make a noticeable dent in their reporting efforts.
And by "noticeable dent" I mean, you know - a bomb here. A bomb there.
The stuff that makes right-wingers feel alive.
Stop being an asshole,TTR.
Can you be specific?
I'm just trying to call attention to the folly of the "intimidate and alienate Muslim informants" policy.
Children had nails driven through their skulls yesterday and your predictable first impulse is to tell conservatives how terrible they are.
Some infidels richly deserve to live under Sharia law.
Children had nails driven through their skulls yesterday and your predictable first impulse is to tell conservatives how terrible they are.
I didn't realize that attention to bad and dangerous policy takes a break because of an atrocity. Especially one predicted by the criticism of that policy.
Atrocities occur every day in America.
If you wanted a memorial service, I didn't think you were under the impression that a political blog - one in which I notice you are not taking a day off from your regular dispatches against the center, moderates and left - was the place you'd go to for one.
Limiting immigration is fine. But Trump is a one-trick pony who focuses on the most sensationalized points in such a way as to lose sight of the big picture. We are not Europe, yet. That's why I can't stand when Trump makes himself out to be the reincarnation of some general sent here to set right Europe's losses of decades and centuries ago. He is inadvertently hastening our identification with a continent that we thankfully need to have no part of when it comes to any of this shit.
The Muslims I know seem like decent people, but, outside of mass murder, I don't see a broad band that pushes back against the extreme positions of their faith.
That is because to do so makes you an apostate and can easily result in your death, often legally.
Some infidels richly deserve to live under Sharia law.
Speaking of a-holes, I'm assuming you believe this actually merited consideration, let alone a response.
Let's think about the thought process of a supposed defender of the West who would even talk this way.
I'd rather die in a terrorist attack at some mall or concert than live gutlessly, betraying the values that made us great.
Suppose you live heroically in a dangerous area now, eh?
Ever fearlessly been down in the ghetto/projects after dark?
Do your everyday shopping down there, and let us know how that works out.
No? Brave enough to put a Trump bumper sticker on your wife's car?
Are you brave enough to live through a terrorist attack, deaf, dumb, and blind, missing a limb or two?
Those injured people with "non life threatening injuries" don't just get up and go to work the next day,
Well, I can see this thread is infected.
A collection of bromides from the UK press summarized by Rod Liddle. : "We must all come together. Hope, not hate. Nothing to do with Islam. Nothing to do with Muslims. Just a rogue individual, possibly in the employ of some mysterious foreign agency. Just terrorism, bad people. Unaligned wickedness. Nothing to do with religion. We must all come together. And show love. And solidarity. Hope not hate.
Je Suis Ariana Grande. Already viciousness is being expressed on social media sites. People jumping to all sorts of conclusions. Horrible, horrible, people – no better than the murderer. Who might just as easily have been a Methodist. Remember Jo Cox? That wasn’t them, was it? There, you see."
And I take offense to that chiding. I tell conservatives how terrible they are no matter what happened that day. ;-)
I keep hearing about all these "good Muslims". The thing is, I was raised Catholic but sadly lost my faith and became agnostic despite having a tremendous amount of respect for the institution (at least pre-Marxist infiltration) and being quite proud of its history.
From my perspective, I truly cannot imagine being part of a religion like Islam, seeing what is done in its name, hearing what the imams spew in their mosques, the mass murders, the wars everywhere, and not lose my faith utterly. I'd be agnostic or convert to another religion faster than the speed of light.
I don't care how "good" someone seems. If they can do anything except utterly reject a barbaric death cult founded by a lying pedophile warlord, there is something deeply wrong with them.
Course, I think the same is true of leftists.
Well, I can see this thread is infected.
-Michael Kennedy.
“. . . the discovery of the Jewish virus is one of the greatest revolutions that has taken place in the world. The battle in which we are engaged today is of the same sort as the battle waged, during the last century, by Pasteur and Koch. How many diseases have their origin in the Jewish virus! ... We shall regain our health only be eliminating the Jew.”
- Adolf Hitler (quoted in Burleigh and Wippermann, Racial State, p. 107)
"Don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus. Don't think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis. This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst. (Applause)"
Source: D Irving, The War Path: Hitler's Germany 1933-1939. Papermac, 1978, p.xxi
Dr. Michael Kennedy Mengele is practicing "ideological hygiene."
Well, I can see this thread is infected.
-Michael Kennedy.
“When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let’s be the only people who are immunised against the disease.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 145
“Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity. It will last another hundred years, two hundred years perhaps. My regret will have been that I couldn’t, like whoever the prophet was, behold the promised land from afar. We are entering into a conception of the world that will be a sunny era, an era of tolerance.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 343-344
TTR, you are lecturing me after saying conservatives get off on terrorist attacks? No, we know they are inevitable, given the present blindness of Western leadership, we warn that they are coming and get called bigots and xenophobes,they happen and then we are told that they are somehow our fault. Oh,and that we derive pleasure from them. You write that and then pearl clutch over my comment?
"Atrocities occur everyday in America."
So I am told. PB was talking about bathtub accidents yesterday.
Oh please. You know damn well Michael K. Is not a Nazi and you are just here to fling shit. Apparently you decided to ignore Althouse's request or you think it doesn't apply to you.
I'm out of here.
TTR, you are lecturing me after saying conservatives get off on terrorist attacks? No, we know they are inevitable, given the present blindness of Western leadership, we warn that they are coming and get called bigots and xenophobes,they happen and then we are told that they are somehow our fault. Oh,and that we derive pleasure from them. You write that and then pearl clutch over my comment?
They're inevitable anyway, like any crime. Like any wack-job movement.
But your war on Muslim informants and identification with Crusader-era Europe sure doesn't minimize them.
Criticize that. I'll ignore the rest of your hyperbole.
Oh please. You know damn well Michael K. Is not a Nazi...
I didn't call him a Nazi. I called attention to his strange infection-contamination perspective on thread commenting, and perhaps other things.
"Well, I can see this thread is infected."
"Oh please. You know damn well Michael K. Is not a Nazi and you are just here to fling shit. Apparently you decided to ignore Althouse's request or you think it doesn't apply to you.
I'm out of here."
Every once in awhile, the neighbors little dog escapes. I catch him if I can, and take return him.
When I see one of the neighborhood pit bulls or rottweilers runnin' lose, I tend to close the garage door and leave it be.
"Dr. Michael Kennedy Mengele is practicing "ideological hygiene."
I stopped by on the way to dinner to see what nasty ad hominem pice of shit the Ritmo sock puppet would drop on the comments.
Always in character. I guess Ann likes it.
"Dr. Michael Kennedy Mengele"
"I didn't call him a Nazi"
Except, you know, literally.
>>I'm out of here.
Right behind you... Noise >> signal
right on Q - the left (no, not all leftists, but most) side with terror and condemn those of us who are angry and direct that anger at those responsible. Leftists insist the so-called backlash that never happens is the bigger crime.
Islamic terror killed these innocents in Manchester. Not Christians, not Jews, Not atheists. Islamic death cultists did this.
Radical Islam, Obama - you selfish Iranian Mullah supporting-terror supporting f*Head.
Might want to re-think your self-hatred leftists, even Morrissey is sick of it.
Before Mengele was a Nazi I'm sure he was a very good doctor. And very ideologically hygienic. ;-)
Did you want me to apologize and clarify? Ok, I have no evidence that Michael K is a Nazi.
But he's very ideologically hygienic! And likes clean, uncontaminated threads!
I stopped by on the way to dinner to see what nasty ad hominem pice of shit the Ritmo sock puppet would drop on the comments.
Always in character. I guess Ann likes it.
5/23/17, 8:58 PM
And, I don't throw rocks at the pitbull, then complain to the owner when it bites me.
And, I don't throw rocks at the pitbull, then complain to the owner when it bites me.
Certain medical schools offer specialized courses in aggravated ideological assault. ;-)
Thread's over. see y'all tomorrow.
“. . . the discovery of the Jewish virus
Jesus Ritmo, WTF?!
Ritmo is in his cups again. I can see what he gets out of it, but not the rest of you guys.
Mengele?
Ritmo, what is wrong with you?
Well, I see this place has deteriorated. I was hoping for an open thread, but alas. Did anyone see Morrissey laying it down?
The natives are getting restless.
“A man may die, blogs may rise and fall, but an Id lives on.”
While Ingaland Slept (2017)
Well, I see this place has deteriorated. I was hoping for an open thread, but alas. Did anyone see Morrissey laying it down
The Cali-Fate is killing pop music -- something the Queen and her BBC could not do in the 60's. Morrissey has a point.
Ritmo, what is wrong with you?
I was declared impure to the thread.
A veritable infection of it.
The good doctor fancies himself a fumigator of sorts, I take it.
Or maybe someone like Victor, the Cleaner.
Sorry for the rash. Maybe the doctor has a remedy to recommend.
Blogger Inga said...No MichaelK, many of them were ethnic gentile Germans that were refugees from Eastern Europe, when after the war they were driven out of the countries since the1700's. I'm not remarking on the rightness or wrongness of this but there were millions of ethnic Germans that were "cleansed" out of Eastern Europe. America, Canada, Australia and other countries took them in. My family was fortunate to have had relatives that sponsored us and we, after being in refugee status for 10 years were given entry to the US in 1955.
I believe we are seeing the real Inga. I remember some of this background of her family from way-way back. It caught my memory as my great-great grandfather on my father's side came from Pommern (Pomerania), which is now part of Poland. Also, the Waukesha County related posts earlier tonight. I was almost convinced she was a paid progressive talking points poster.
How long would any of the modern Left's ideas stand if they said "Muslims are a danger to the liberal world order"? The whole edifice would come crashing down. The only things that can be spoken of as dangers to the liberal world order are white men, capitalism, and (lately) a belief in the biological reality of male/female dimorphism.
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