February 14, 2017

"Red State, Blue City/The United States is coming to resemble two countries, one rural and one urban. What happens when they go to war?"

An article in The Atlantic. The title is overemotional (and annoyingly treats the word rural as a synonym for not urban). But the text of the article has some good detail about lawmaking. The liberal urban areas might want to do things their own way but can have their laws preempted by state government.
Common examples involve blocking local minimum-wage and sick-leave ordinances, which are opposed by business groups, and bans on plastic grocery bags, which arouse retailers’ ire. Some states have prohibited cities from enacting firearm regulations....

“People are furious. They’re confused,” Esther Manheimer, Asheville’s mayor, told me as her city battled to retain control of its water system. “We’re a very desirable city to live in. We’re on all the top-10 lists. How would anyone have an issue with the way Asheville is running its city, or the things that the people of Asheville value?”...

Some states delegate certain powers to cities, but states remain the higher authority, even if city dwellers don’t realize it. “Most people think, We have an election here, we elect a mayor and our city council, we organize our democracy—we should have a right to control our own city in our own way,” says Gerald Frug, a Harvard Law professor and an expert on local government. “You go to any place in America and ask, ‘Do you think this city can control its own destiny?’ ‘Of course it can!’ The popular conception of what cities do runs in direct conflict with the legal reality.”
ADDED: The question in the title has a very simple answer: The state wins.

ALSO: Though the law gives the state the upper hand, there should be a political argument that appeals to the conscience of conservatives in state government. If they believe in the values of federalism — that decentralization produces law that is well-tailored to local conditions and preferences — then they should respect the autonomy of cities. Some matters need to be governed by uniform state law, just as some things work better with uniform federal law, but when that uniformity is not a positive good, lean toward local democracy. I'm not saying this political argument will necessarily work, just that it has potential to singe their conscience.

255 comments:

1 – 200 of 255   Newer›   Newest»
Brent said...

People in the Red states have more guns and - unlike those in the blue states - know how to use them extremely accurately

rhhardin said...

Just zone them to 1 acre single residency and the cities disappear.

YoungHegelian said...

So, liberals are finally discovering the joys of devolved government, are they?

Next, they'll be going on about states rights (like California...). Oh, but I'm sure it's all about racism. After all, they've told us for decades that states' rights was just a cover for racism, so I'm sure that's the case now.

The Drill SGT said...

Brent said...
People in the Red states have more guns


And more NG Armories and lots more participation in the Army (rural, Red, and Southern)

You can't think that the way the Dems, and Blue cities, denigrate the flag and military service for decades doesn't ultimately impact the way guys with guns think about Blue cities?

traditionalguy said...

George Soros pays better, as of now. But free agent Riot Organizers are open for better offers.

The dumb GOP still expects cheap volunteer labor not to leave them.That is why they sign up all the people who apply for a Trump Rally Ticket.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Why won't those meanies in the State House leave us alone to get on with the business of not leaving people alone?

Ignorance is Bliss said...

The same people who are offended when the state overrules their city ( which it legally has the power to do ) have no problem when the federal government overrules the states ( which it often does not legally have the power to do ), at least as long as their team controls the federal government.

Fernandinande said...

Brent said...
People in the Red states have more guns and - unlike those in the blue states - know how to use them extremely accurately


I live in the sticks and AFAIK everyone has plenty of guns.

My question is: if a guy is holding a gun to another guy's head, ready to pull the trigger, what happens if you get a good head-shot to the guy holding the gun? Does he drop the gun or does he pull the trigger in a sort of death-reflex (finger contracts)?

traditionalguy said...

In Georgia we have long adjusted to an inner city Atlanta and the rest of the State. You assign Dems safe Districts as per the Voting Rights Act, and win with the rest. And John Lewis is Eternal.

Nonapod said...

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that if push really came to shove, Civil War would not go well for Team Blue. But holy smokes! Are we as a nation really entertaining the notion of Civil War? Or is this just click-bait hyperbole? I suspect that despite the hysteria from some quarters of the Left, things aren't anywhere near as dire as being on the brink of a shooting war.

SeanF said...

"...as a synonym for not..."

I would like to introduce you to the word "antonym". :)

Seriously, though, Ignorance is Bliss has it. Anyone who approves of the feds telling the states what to do can't very well object to the states telling the cities what to do.

Constitutionally speaking, however, the reverse is not quite true.

Brando said...

"People in the Red states have more guns..."

Clearly someone hasn't driven through West Baltimore lately.

Todd said...

Most of that "crap" is just nanny-state-ism. You don't like plastic bags? Fine don't use them. You want to conserve water? Fine you install a low flow commode. The issue is the folks that want all of these sort of "life style" choice items want to jam their "choice" down everyone else's throat because otherwise those "others" might make the wrong choice.

If all of their ideas are so good, why do they require the force of Government to make them happen?

If you want businesses to pay a "living wage" (whatever that is) then why don't you start your own business and then you can pay your employees as much as you want.

Your "right" to live your life as you see fit should not preclude me from doing the same...

Unknown said...

Ferdinande: The thing to do in that situation is to find a local reporter if you can't find a WaPo or NYT reporter. As we all know, they are our betters, and clearly can do what is required: which is shoot the gun out of his hand, and then put a bullet between his eyes.

If it was easy, then even rubes from the rural areas could do it. Thus, clearly our betters at the NYT can do it blindfolded.

If you don't have a handy dandy Reporter from the elite newspapers then I'm not sure. I would think that your finger wouldn't contract.

--Vance

Ron Winkleheimer said...

We’re a very desirable city to live in. We’re on all the top-10 lists. How would anyone have an issue with the way Asheville is running its city, or the things that the people of Asheville value?”...

The stupid, it BURNS.

Brando said...

"Yeah, it's pretty obvious that if push really came to shove, Civil War would not go well for Team Blue. But holy smokes! Are we as a nation really entertaining the notion of Civil War? Or is this just click-bait hyperbole? I suspect that despite the hysteria from some quarters of the Left, things aren't anywhere near as dire as being on the brink of a shooting war."

No civil war, this is just the usual "I can't stand those [leftists/rightists]" hyperbole where every right winger thinks they can live just fine without any cities (very Jeffersonian) and left winger thinks their cities subsidize country dwellers. Then they all go right back to depending on one another because we no longer live in some 1800s regional economy.

But what is happening instead is a cultural split, one that's grown over the years, where Left and Right can at adopt entertainment and lifestyle geared towards them and convince themselves that the "other" is just evil and weird. So while there will never be a real life split, we can at least retreat to our cultural bubbles.

eric said...

Now apply that to marijuana laws from the states vs federal law.

Gusty Winds said...

The State wins

Yeah, probably, but everyone loses. You can feel it socially the divisions spreading to families, friendships etc...

For the first time ever, just because it is all the same clap trap, I have muted (not unfriended) certain people on Facebook, both liberal and conservative. Nobody posts anything original, it's always just the same re-post of someone else's narrative.

It is so strange to see people post Hitler analogies knowing they have plenty of family members and friends who voted for Trump.

I come to Althouse for politics. I don't always agree with the professor, but at least she is consistently original.

Larry J said...

Strictly speaking, the American Civil War from 1861-65 wasn't really a civil war. In a civil war, one or more factions are trying to take over the nation from the ruling faction. That was never the goal of the South. Had the Confederacy won that war, they would've been an independent nation and the United States would've still existed, only smaller. Instead of a civil war, it was a failed war of independence.

Should the current hyperbole actually lead to a large scale conflict, that would be a true civil war to determine who gets to control the United States. May God forbid it ever come to that. Civil wars (the ultimate oxymoron) are almost always the most destructive in lives and property. The war of 1861-65 was the deadliest in US history and a true civil war here could likely be much worse.

eric said...

Nobody expects civil war until it's too late.

wildswan said...

What happens when government becomes so powerful that your political opponents cannot be allowed to hold office? You could have a civil war.

Or you could devolve power back toward the lowest possible level of government competent to carry out the job. Education - back to local school boards. City pension plans back to cities except for state supervision to see that they are actually funded. City police - back to the cities. If Asheville wants to control its water it has to control the rest as well. Meaning take as little Federal and state money as possible instead of as much.

Recognize bureaucratic overreach at the Federal level as a major problem for rural and urban areas. Recognize that the universities have been trashed as far as the "humanities" are concerned which is a major problem for rural and urban areas. Recognize that a leftist city is anti-business, loses jobs and is therefore objectively hostile to the workers. But such a city might have cultural complex favorable to a cultural elite hostile to the workers, to families and to religion but attractive to the young and the restless and the student and as such a job creator, jobs resting on the creation of unsustainable culture, a slice [of pizza or anything else] culture, a part-time culture, an adjunct culture, a "look-different" culture, a tweet culture, a in-it-for-four-years-then-I'm-gone-so-bring-it-on culture.

Which utterly disgusts people like me, bringing on rants.

CStanley said...

We’re a very desirable city to live in. We’re on all the top-10 lists. How would anyone have an issue with the way Asheville is running its city, or the things that the people of Asheville value?”...

The stupid, it BURNS.


But they won the popular vote!

Ron Winkleheimer said...

@Brando

But the left isn't retreating to its cultural bubble. It is aggressively pushing its values on the rest of society. Mostly because they felt they were ascendant and push back was not possible.

What over arching societal goal was going to be accomplished by forcing the Little Sisters of the Poor to provide abortificients?

Why is it so important that the owner of a chicken sandwich restaurant chain be on board with same-sex marriage?

Why are death threats necessary when some pizza parlor proprietor in the middle of nowhere states that in the unlikely event that they were asked, they would not cater a same-sex wedding reception?

Why, all of a sudden, is it vitally important that grown men be allowed to pee next to little girls?


Bay Area Guy said...

@Larry J,

Strictly speaking, the American Civil War from 1861-65 wasn't really a civil war. In a civil war, one or more factions are trying to take over the nation from the ruling faction. That was never the goal of the South. Had the Confederacy won that war, they would've been an independent nation and the United States would've still existed, only smaller. Instead of a civil war, it was a failed war of independence.

That's a good point. "The Southern War of Independence" sounds like a slogan from confederate hold-outs, but as you note, it's probably more accurate.

Today, can anyone imagine the US going to war to stop a State from seceding?

As for Cities becoming more autonomous, hell yeah, I support that. Principles of federalism still work for me. But the cities suck so much government tit, that they won't support more autonomy. They like Federal dollars and judicial consent decrees and ....

robother said...

Ann is right about the silly reductionism of the Atlantic's City vs. Rural. As chronicled in RealClearpolitics' Trende analysis, the real political line is between residents of mega and big cities (over 1,00,000) and the rest of the population, which include residents of rural counties, small towns, big towns and small cities.

The over-the-top identity politics and neoliberal open borders/ free trade that define deep blue Democrat strongholds (and thus the national party) is driving the rest of America into the arms of the Republican Party. Witness the loss of 1000 seats in Congress and the state houses. The only exception is thinly populated Western States (e.g.,Nevada, Colorado and New Mexico) where a growing large city can quickly dominate state-wide politics.

Atlantic is willfully ignoring the distinction between local control (city level) and federalism (state level), in claiming that Republicans are inconsistent.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

I heard someone being interviewed on NPR Sunday. He was arguing that taking physical action to stop some people from speaking was morally justified. In other words, he was attempting to present the moral case for the rioting that stopped Milo Y. from speaking at Berkley.

The short of it is that some ideas are so dangerous that we cannot run the risk that they win out in a free market of ideas. And of course the ideas that were being fought were fascist, and the rioters were mostly communists and anarchists who understood the dangers of fascism.

Yeah, this is my incredulous face.

Communists and anarchists think they have the moral high ground over fascists. And the NPR interviewer didn't even call him on it, of course.

Brando said...

"But the left isn't retreating to its cultural bubble. It is aggressively pushing its values on the rest of society. Mostly because they felt they were ascendant and push back was not possible."

They try that, but when they get frustrated in their ambitions they retreat ever further into their glorious enclaves, making little Portlandias everywhere, where they can have $15 minimum wages, bans on trans fats, gun bans, etc. Then they watch Lena Dunham shows (with Althouse!) and admire Beyoncé, and follow jai alai (I assume, not really sure what spectator sports are big in Portlandias).

Left Bank of the Charles said...

That happened to the rent control zealots of Cambridge. They thought they had a lock on the city council and, with their allies in Boston and Brookline, on the state house too. Their opponents mounted a state-wide ballot question, which abolished rent control on a vote of 1,034,599 to 980,736.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Can't we all get along:

"Well I've been all around this troubled old world but I never found peace of mind
Till I met that pretty little city girl Lord they oughta make more of her kind
She's a little bit country makes me think of meadows and clover"

n.n said...

They did it again. First, it was the People and our Posterity. Now, they excised suburbia. The Left has a fetish for elective, selective things.

wildswan said...

Trump will take power when he pries it from my cold dead hand which is presently throttling the country. That's what the bureaucrats are saying in Washington.

To me, the rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in the Hot-Air Media-Complex are proof through night and the fog of fake news that Donald J Trump, President of the United States, IS STILL THERE.

Draining the swamp, among the alligators. Still there.

And "why hasn't he fixed everything in three weeks" is a media question, not one real people ask. Enough that, after three weeks, DC hates him even more, is more confused, more hysterical and projects its confusion more. Go, Donald, go. MAGA.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

"The Southern War of Independence" sounds like a slogan from confederate hold-outs,

It is properly called the "The War of Northern Aggression."

Bruce Hayden said...

@Ron - they shouldn't have fired on Fort Sumpter then.

Balfegor said...

Re: Althouse:

If they believe in the values of federalism — that decentralization produces law that is well-tailored to local conditions and preferences — then they should respect the autonomy of cities. Some matters need to be governed by uniform state law, just as some things work better with uniform federal law, but when that uniformity is not a positive good, lean toward local democracy. I'm not saying this political argument will necessarily work, just that it has potential to singe their conscience.

I don't know that it is their consciences that need to be singed, so much as their self-interest. If nothing else, the breathtaking stupidity displayed by Obama and the Democrats for the past 8 years ought to play the role of the slave in the chariot whispering "Look behind you! Remember you are only a man!" Seizing upon a momentary electoral advantage to lord it over their cultural and ideological rivals was a stupid, stupid, stupid thing to do.

I'm of two minds about this really. There's a bit of a prisoner's dilemma about this -- it's best for the polity as a whole if Republicans learn from the nemesis (Trump) that followed Obama's hubris and conspicuously refrain from using their power in Congress and in state legislatures to bar localities from implementing faddish progressive policies. And if Democrats reciprocated by doing the same when they were in power, as they will be sooner or later (if the parties don't collapse entirely), we could all continue to coexist peacefully. But, well, it is a bit of a prisoner's dilemma.

Just before the election, when Democrats thought they were going to win the presidency and the senate, and were within striking distance of taking the house, and on the verge of replacing Scalia with a liberal justice, they chortled openly about how they were not going to restrain themselves, how they would sweep away any procedural obstacles in their way (viz. the filibuster). For the Republicans to engage in unilateral nuclear disarmament here would be very, very hard, as they run the risk of looking as dumb as Obama when Democrats take power and do everything they promised they would do.

But I think that right now is not the best time to assess this. The Democrats are still in anguish over the dream of absolute power they saw turn to ash on election day. They have not yet had time to calm down and rethink their position. If I were a Republican, I wouldn't trust the Democrats today enough to disarm. But six months or a year down the road -- perhaps? I hope so.

Or who knows? Perhaps the Republican and Democratic parties will both collapse. They're certainly both ripe for a collapse and realignment today. Carve off a progressive rump -- the new Dixiecrats for neo-Confederate California -- and the remaining Democrats could be electorally competitive across the entire map.

AlbertAnonymous said...

...and the cities that want to be "sanctuaries" and ignore federal law on immigration, but also want all the federal money to keep flowing their way?

Yeah sure, you can be totally autonomous. But you have to pay your own way.

Static Ping said...

I actually sympathize with Asheville here, except for the part where they would most certainly want to dictate how all the surrounding rural counties should do everything. Asheville's argument is valid but insincere.

Some people do not seem to grab that "leave me alone" works both ways.

Danno said...

Brando said..."Clearly someone hasn't driven through West Baltimore lately."

If they are like the gun owners in Chicago, they only have a 18-20% kill ratio. In other words, they are really bad shots. See heyjackass.com for the most recent stats.

Virgil Hilts said...

Here's a principled reaction (I think); federalism works and should be applied whenever the more local politic (sate versus federal, town versus state) chooses a law or regulation that is designed to reduce rather than increase the impact of government on the freedom of people and small businesses. So state laws allowing marijuana use are OK. Local laws imposing non-standard additional licensing restrictions to protect local business from competitors moving in would not be OK.

Achilles said...

Blogger Brando said...

"Clearly someone hasn't driven through West Baltimore lately. "

9mm pistols with 3 inch barrels are situational weapons for downtown criminals hiding from police and getting the jump on someone in close quarters. In most conflicts people will be engaging from 200+ yards.

Sebastian said...

"Asheville's argument is valid but insincere." Unfortunately, all progressive arguments are insincere. I do mean unfortunately: no honest deals are possible, because progs will do whatever suits them, however they like, whenever they have the chance. If they had more state power, they'd be arguing for less local control. Their ideas are merely tools, to be used at will.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

@Ron - they shouldn't have fired on Fort Sumpter then.

Hey, I'm a Damn Yankee, I just report what I see and hear.



Henry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Henry said...

The state may win, but cities have a long history of using the state for their own purposes. Just examine the history of how New York City gets fresh water.

It's also very easy for urbanites to vote against rural interests. For example, in New York State the Forever Wild status of the Adirondack State Park repeatedly forces local land disputes to the state level.

Here's a sample case. The town of Arietta petitioned the Department of Environmental Conservation for permission to remove 131 trees at the end of it's small airport to remain in compliance with changing FAA regulations. The state declined. Eventually the town's request went to a statewide ballot issue.

Here's a sample New York Time's reader response.

Bruce Hayden said...

@robother - you may have a point with CO and NV, but NM has long had a blue tinge. Much more old-line Hispanic. Always a bit of an outlier in the inter mountain west. CO has swung back and forth between the two parties throughout my entire lifetime. Indeed, my guess, going back my 66 years, the Dems have controlled the governorship maybe 2/3 of the time, and half the Senate seat terms. Congressional seats and the state legislature have tended to be fairly evenly split over time. The problem in NV, as contrasted with the rest of the inter mountain west, was that it has long been the most highly unionized, esp since the casinos became big business. Extractive industries were also unionized, but i think it is mostly the casino workers.

I would love to blame Californians for NV, and them, along with those from NY and New England for the leftward shift inn CO, but I think that it is a lot more complicated. I think that it was a class thing much more than anything else that lost CO for Trump. Instead of a lot of working class whites who loved his bragging, it has a lot of college educated who essentially look down on that sort of thing.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Ann Althouse said...If they believe in the values of federalism — that decentralization produces law that is well-tailored to local conditions and preferences — then they should respect the autonomy of cities. Some matters need to be governed by uniform state law, just as some things work better with uniform federal law, but when that uniformity is not a positive good, lean toward local democracy. I'm not saying this political argument will necessarily work, just that it has potential to singe their conscience.

Seems a little late to try appealing to the conscience of those particular people--those are the same people who've been called racists for the last three and a half decades any time they brought up federalism or state's rights or anything else in that area. "Hey, remember that argument you made and belief you held that we have consistently tied to segregation, Jim Crow, and vicious racism--to the point of attacking you at every opportunity and trying to ruin your career or life over? Yeah, that one--since you believe that you should support our efforts now." Tough sell, ma'am.

I'm a small government guy. There are a few of us. Politically, we lost. We didn't have a candidate in the last Presidential race! The Left has been very successful and has made scaling back Big Government almost unthinkable to most people. The "Life of Julia" stuff is enormously popular and it is premised on control by the federal government. GWBush was a Big Government guy but at least as a Repub. there were some spheres he theoretically thought the gov. shouldn't involve itself in. BObama had no such qualms--"everything within the state" and what not--and he was well-loved. What percentage of the economy is the healthcare sector, again? DTrump is just taking it all a step further--he's working on the "nothing against the state part" to hear frightened lefties tell it--but there's not a large-enough reserve of small government believers to get anyone else elected.

Some instrumental argument that small gov. people ought to support Lefty cities' desire to thwart the national government on a few issues...I'm just not sure that'll cut it. Even if it did, there aren't enough of us to help! Your pals on the Left saw to that.

Otto said...

I don't like it when i lose so i want to change the rules, because reason and reality are too hard. Give them autonomy and no financial aid and see them die in their own bile.

Angel-Dyne said...

AA: Though the law gives the state the upper hand, there should be a political argument that appeals to the conscience of conservatives in state government. If they believe in the values of federalism — that decentralization produces law that is well-tailored to local conditions and preferences — then they should respect the autonomy of cities.

Um, isn't liberals' appealing to the principles of conservatives, and then turning around and playing "heads I win tails you lose" with those principles part of what brought us to where we are now?

E.g.:
How would anyone have an issue with the way Asheville is running its city, or the things that the people of Asheville value?”...

Something tells me that Madame Mayor would have all kinds of issues with people running their own cities according to their own values, if they weren't in rigid lockstep with Mme Mayor's values, and wouldn't think twice about sticking her nose in and putting the hammer down every chance she got.

Respect autonomy? You first, progs.

Bruce Hayden said...

@Achilles - not sure if 200 yards is accurate. Part of why we moved from the M1 and M14 was that they were optimized for longer distances than we were expecting to encounter. Depends, of course, on where. But I would suggest that much of any combat would be quasi-urban, or at least suburban, where an AR-15 (and M4) carbine would likely be the firearm of choice. Or, alternatively, their full length brethren. This doesn't change your real argument, of course, since the gangbangers in west Baltimore almost exclusively utilize handguns, for their obvious advantages of conceilability.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

What HoodlumDoodlum said.

Nobody with any sense trusts the left any longer. There only principle is "moar power." All arguments are simply verbal window dressing meant to talk the gullible into giving them "moar power." Any pretended principles will be jettisoned whenever neccesary to gain "moar power." Any deals abrogated if needed to gain "moar power."

When you can't even let some old nuns alone to care for the dieing poor, you have a little bit of a credibility problem.

Achilles said...

Blogger wildswan said...
"What happens when government becomes so powerful that your political opponents cannot be allowed to hold office? You could have a civil war. "

This is the core problem. The cities want to be "left alone " but they invariably impose environmental regulations on the rural areas requiring for example where I grew up 5 acres per house lot and massive setbacks from any water. They want to ban guns so only inner city gangs have guns and they never fail to try to pass their "common sense " legislation when they get the chance.

If Hillary had won it would have been the end of the rule of law. Her cronies would have had their rules and the rest of us were out in the cold. The left has taken the position that everyone in the country must live under their rules and they weaponized the government to makes it happen. Now they are under the boot. Being a minority you would think they would value freedom from government but instead they would rather pretend they can take power back by force.

I don't think it will turn into a hot war. I don't think they will venture out of their little bubbles and eventually the people who pay them will realize shitting in your own bed doesn't matter to anyone but you.

buwaya said...

Nobody has a conscience anymore.
In this case as in so many others neither side has clean hands.
Whomever has the advantage will do its best to oppress the other in any way available, no matter how petty.

Earnest Prole said...

When rural prevails over urban, people's lifestyles are affected, whereas when urban prevails over rural, people lose their livelihood.

eric said...


Um, isn't liberals' appealing to the principles of conservatives, and then turning around and playing "heads I win tails you lose" with those principles part of what brought us to where we are now?


This brings me back to something Paul Ryan said some years ago and no one ever wants to discuss it.

Sometimes we have to violate our principles in order to uphold our principles.

The right is called a hypocrite but really, we just want to play by consistent rules.

If we believe a touchdown ought to be six points and ever time we are on offense it's worth six points, great. But as soon as they get the football, the rules change and a touchdown is now worth 12 points. Then they bitch we are violating our principles when we get the ball back and demand we get 12 points for a touchdown also.

Achilles said...

Blogger buwaya said...
"Nobody has a conscience anymore.
In this case as in so many others neither side has clean hands.
Whomever has the advantage will do its best to oppress the other in any way available, no matter how petty."

In our case it is more that one side won't stop until the other side leaves it alone and the other side won't stop until the other side surrenders.

Brando said...

"But I would suggest that much of any combat would be quasi-urban, or at least suburban, where an AR-15 (and M4) carbine would likely be the firearm of choice. Or, alternatively, their full length brethren. This doesn't change your real argument, of course, since the gangbangers in west Baltimore almost exclusively utilize handguns, for their obvious advantages of conceilability."

All of which goes to why I would not envy anyone whose job is to pacify West Baltimore. It was enough driving through it for a few years and fortunately was teleworking on Riot Day.

Seeing Red said...

Then there's blue Chicago.

Which is why States rule instead of cities.

Everything is local.

Hello, Electoral College!

mockturtle said...

wildswan says: Recognize that a leftist city is anti-business

Well, some, like Seattle, are very PRO business so long as they are 'clean', like tech business and Amazon and Starbucks. Keep those smelly, dirty factories out!



Seeing Red said...

Red states have guns. Heavily blue states have heavily armed drug gangs.

Todd said...

Otto said...

Give them autonomy and no financial aid and see them die in their own bile.

2/14/17, 11:48 AM


That looks all well and good on paper but the problem is you can't "really" force them to stay there and live with the results. They will just mess their own nest until it is unlivable and then move somewhere else and start all over again.

Ideally, you could modify the voting laws to say someone can't vote on anything below the Federal level in a state until they have lived there for 10 years or some-such. That way when these "children" run from their mess, there is some control over how soon they can start messing up the new one.

Either that or we take the Mexican wall Trump is going to build and run it up the west side walling off Cal, etc. That would negatively impact rural Cals but something has to be done.

Related, I tell my liberal friends that want to move to warmer climates that they need to go to Cal. Avoid Texas, Florida, etc. as they are just TOO hickie. That they would hate it. Orlando is OK to visit for Disney and such but you DON'T want to live here! Cali is the place to be! (get them all in just a few places, easier to control the damage that way)

mockturtle said...

Give them autonomy and no financial aid and see them die in their own bile.

Agree, Otto! If they want sanctuary cities they will have to support them on their own dime.

BN said...

Subsidiarity taken to it's logical end eventually winds up at individual liberty. Which simply doesn't work...

...when the aim is power and access to OPM.

Seeing Red said...

It's all about the Benjamins.

mockturtle said...

Related, I tell my liberal friends that want to move to warmer climates that they need to go to Cal. Avoid Texas, Florida, etc. as they are just TOO hickie.

Tell them to avoid Arizona, too!

Todd said...

mockturtle said...
Related, I tell my liberal friends that want to move to warmer climates that they need to go to Cal. Avoid Texas, Florida, etc. as they are just TOO hickie.

Tell them to avoid Arizona, too!

2/14/17, 12:21 PM


Arizona? Don't worry, most liberals believe that place is made up like Portlandia.

ALP said...

“We are about to see a shit storm of state and federal preemption orders, of a magnitude greater than anything in history,” says Mark Pertschuk of Grassroots Change, which tracks such laws through an initiative called Preemption Watch.
*************************
The use of "shit storm" in an Atlantic article made my day.

Now - I'll read the rest of this to see when the Shit Hawks are due to arrive...

mockturtle said...

Todd, Portlandia is not made up. ;-)

Gahrie said...

--those are the same people who've been called racists for the last three and a half decades any time they brought up federalism or state's rights or anything else in that area.

Including our host, who was horrified when she met actual real life libertarians to find out that they supported the idea of states' rights, and frankly became hysterical over it.

damikesc said...

Nobody is saying stores in a city CANNOT do these things. Just that they cannot be FORCED to do those things. They're not synonymous

Next, they'll be going on about states rights (like California...). Oh, but I'm sure it's all about racism. After all, they've told us for decades that states' rights was just a cover for racism, so I'm sure that's the case now.

For them, it's different.

But what is happening instead is a cultural split, one that's grown over the years, where Left and Right can at adopt entertainment and lifestyle geared towards them and convince themselves that the "other" is just evil and weird. So while there will never be a real life split, we can at least retreat to our cultural bubbles.

I don't fully agree.

Conservatives view Progressives as evil and destructive because, honestly, they've been rioting for months now and are threatening to continue to do so. They've turned "We have to do something about rape" to "let's railroad men". You don't see the Right gleefully describing NYC as "Dumbfuckistan "(though they did elect De Blasio as mayor, so we have evidence of the possibility).

We tend to view cities as pretentious assholes who are annoying busybodies.

The Left views us as Nazis. No real subtlety. The nice conservatives are the ones who "aren't like that mindless horde" down there. Even though conservatives do not have a long tradition of rioting when we don't get our way (riots didn't erupt after Obergefell, after all) nor do we decide to target and destroy opponents.

In this battle, I have zero qualms labeling the Right as the good guys. They don't want to fuck with the Left. They just want the Left to leave them the hell alone.

Strictly speaking, the American Civil War from 1861-65 wasn't really a civil war. In a civil war, one or more factions are trying to take over the nation from the ruling faction. That was never the goal of the South. Had the Confederacy won that war, they would've been an independent nation and the United States would've still existed, only smaller. Instead of a civil war, it was a failed war of independence.

The Southern term "War Between the States" was always more accurate, but it is a battle that isn't worth fighting. Pointing out that the South didn't want to govern the North, more often than not, has led to claims of one being a Confederacy sympathizer.

I heard someone being interviewed on NPR Sunday. He was arguing that taking physical action to stop some people from speaking was morally justified. In other words, he was attempting to present the moral case for the rioting that stopped Milo Y. from speaking at Berkley.

Berkeley's student paper included several articles doing precisely that.

The whole "It's OK to punch a Nazi" meme combined with them calling most opponents "Nazis" is going to a massive breakdown of civil society.

Thorley Winston said...

Agree, Otto! If they want sanctuary cities they will have to support them on their own dime.

That’s incredibly shortsighted. The goal of “sanctuary cities” is to allow non-citizens to vote and tip the balance of political power in State-wide races permanently to the core urban areas controlled by Democrats. If you allow “sanctuary cities” even with the “promise” that they won’t receive any federal funding, that will only last until Democrats control the Senate and take over your State legislature and governor’s office (and with it, the power to draw Congressional and legislative districts).



Angel-Dyne said...

Ron Winkleheimer: Nobody with any sense trusts the left any longer. There only principle is "moar power." All arguments are simply verbal window dressing meant to talk the gullible into giving them "moar power." Any pretended principles will be jettisoned whenever neccesary to gain "moar power." Any deals abrogated if needed to gain "moar power."

I thought the accepted spelling convention was that "MOAR" is always upper-case. So, "gain MOAR power".

I'm a bit of a stickler for correct usage.

Larry J said...

Strictly speaking, the American Civil War from 1861-65 wasn't really a civil war. In a civil war, one or more factions are trying to take over the nation from the ruling faction. That was never the goal of the South. Had the Confederacy won that war, they would've been an independent nation and the United States would've still existed, only smaller. Instead of a civil war, it was a failed war of independence.

The Southern term "War Between the States" was always more accurate, but it is a battle that isn't worth fighting. Pointing out that the South didn't want to govern the North, more often than not, has led to claims of one being a Confederacy sympathizer.


I'm an Alabama native who is quite happy that the Confederacy lost that war. I also believe that words mean things. It wasn't a civil war as the term is commonly defined. Pray we never have a civil war. The failed war of independence was bad enough with about twice as many fatalities as the US lost in WWII. A true civil war would likely be much worse.

mockturtle said...

Thorley, the Dems long ago took over my governor's office and State legislature as well as our Congressional representation. Which is one reason I moved last month from Washington State to Arizona. And, no, I don't believe in sanctuary cities but I'm not sure how they can be stopped, aside from starving them out.

buwaya said...

Much of what is done in these policy things is a matter of political/social signalling.
They are not meant to address some actual need, but are instead designed as an attack against the other, the not-us.

Everything from shopping bag bans to garbage sorting to school desegregation to gay marriage (which was a classic case of a symbolic objective pursued simply because it was symbolic) to anti-industrial zoning. There is little desire for the actual outcome, as in nearly all cases the effect is either trivial or negative with respect to the ostensible purpose.

There is no actual reason behind these, no ethical system either. It is all a matter of aggression and discomfiture and triumph over the other, a display of power. The substance is beside the point. Arguments over substance or local interest are beside the point. The conflict and the need to affect morale of both sides is the entire point.

Todd said...

mockturtle said...
Todd, Portlandia is not made up. ;-)

2/14/17, 12:31 PM


Well, that kind of ruins the joke then doesn't it...

Sigivald said...

Firearms laws?

The reasons cities keep getting preemption laws that say they can't is that they keep being either unconstitutional, or pointless and confusing with their cute little gun control laws.

Act like adults if you want to be treated like adults.

mockturtle said...

damikesc asserts: Conservatives view Progressives as evil and destructive

I, for one, do not view Progressives as evil. I view them as naive and uninformed.

buwaya said...

Sanctuary cities are also just another symbolic point, a flag run up the flagpole, a thumb in the eye of the local enemy group.

They aren't actually effective against a Federal enforcement effort.

mockturtle said...

They aren't actually effective against a Federal enforcement effort.

Now that could get ugly.

Rusty said...

I, for one, do not view Progressives as evil. I view them as naive and uninformed.

Vigorously so.

Jack Wayne said...

Ann, you're hinting at the ridiculous idea that States are the "laboratories" of democracy. So let's extend that ridiculous idea to cities, villages, maybe even water boards? If the Constitution provided for a limited government this idea would have never occurred to anyone. To show how ridiculous the idea is, consider RomneyCare. If you accept that RomneyCare was constitutional, then you should go ahead and get Madison to impose AnnCare. It's a laboratory and experiments are ALL good, right? I believe that Cities use their voting majorities to force rural areas to submit to City values. This is a bad thing especially in liberal states. I'm glad that some state legislatures are fighting back and they should not feel anything except vindication.

buwaya said...

"Now that could get ugly."

Yes, it would be noisy. But its been done. Several of last weeks ICE raids were in "sanctuary cities" or counties, such as Los Angeles.

robother said...

@Bruce Hayden: "I think that it was a class thing much more than anything else that lost CO for Trump. Instead of a lot of working class whites who loved his bragging, it has a lot of college educated who essentially look down on that sort of thing."

You're identifying one of the individual sorting dynamics that explain the Blue Mega/Big City vs Red Country phenomenon. College-educated younger populations with New Economy jobs embrace Open Borders/Free Trade policies as embodying rational and social values imbibed at university, as well as the need to virtue signal contempt for working class and small town social values.

I would add significant immigrant--illegal and legal--inflow as rewarding the Dem obsession with identity politics in the case of NV and CO. I don't think you're disagreeing with the Trende diagnosis, as much as trying to explain it.

Michael said...

So then if say Detroit freely chooses to run itself totally into the ground, will the rest of Michigan be stuck with the bill? The city (and town and village and school district and water board) is a creature of the state, which may wisely grant it significant local autonomy but is practically if not legally responsible for what happens there.

Rocketeer said...

The farmers of Attica have always known they can feed themselves; the self-proclaimed aristos of Athens are just awakening to the knowledge that it cannot prosper without both Attica and grain shipments from recalcitrant colonies, and that newfound knowledge is more unbearable to them than the coming hunger.

Todd said...

Jack Wayne said...

It's a laboratory and experiments are ALL good, right?

2/14/17, 1:00 PM


I believe that we should all have as little government as is needed and that as much of that government should be as close to the "locals" as possible WITH the one exception that "rights are rights". No level of government should be able to restrict my God given rights. Other than that, let them be as stupid as they want AS long as it is local. Mess with your own sh*t as much as you want but leave me and my sh*t alone. That is where this always breaks down. Little local fascists screw up their local places so bad that they drive their little fascist cohorts away to other places where they start the entire process all over again.

To that end, I would not mind a constitutional amendment that states every regulation and law not directly called for in the Constitution expires after 5 years. Force all levels of government to constantly re-approve and pass all of this "crap" that has built up over the years.

I strongly believe that people deserve the Government they want/vote for, good and hard BUT the side affect of that is that others are always affected and those "others" need and deserve protection from your "stupid sh*t" (i.e. rural folks affected by city folks, entire country affected by CA, stuff like that).

aritai said...

And now we have the California lack of dams issue and the 100 times the road system necessary to evacuate from these floods and earthquakes.. Where there could easily have been ten times the infrastructure built for practical use in the dry years and emergencies like today. But something displaced the needs of the rural folk, as well as their own ability to deal with the issues. Just take all their money and build dams and roads, lots of jobs for those without a college degree. WPA on steroids. Arguably something that the precautionary principle would argue for. A full 10x, and a slap in the face that would say they had better models and can do better than free markets. If I recall correctly a large part of the relief from Katrina came from the big box stores moving long before the government knew what was happening. And doing it all out of charity. Depend on the government, you may well die, be it infrastructure or self-defense. Again, we'll never know until in crisis, then we'll regret not preparing for the seven lean years while we could. At a small fraction of today's price. Oops, no socialism, or for that matter law making by the courts in favor of special interests worshiping at an altar that values many things above human life. And ignores the (legal) voters majority interests. If what dug this hole was a vote of the people than we'd have no argument because by definition we did it to ourselves. Rather it was the elites, bring back tar and feathers.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"So then if say Detroit freely chooses to run itself totally into the ground, will the rest of Michigan be stuck with the bill?"

Give em' the Flint treatment.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"(i.e. rural folks affected by city folks, entire country affected by CA, stuff like that)."

If only we could do away w/ the folks that are succeeding in the 21st century, and replace them w/ good con economics like Alabama and Mississippi.



Carry on.

knk6146 said...

Strictly speaking, the south invading Pennsylvania, enslaving free northern blacks as they went, sounds a lot like trying to take over from the ruling faction.

Balfegor said...

Re: robother:

College-educated younger populations with New Economy jobs embrace Open Borders/Free Trade policies as embodying rational and social values imbibed at university, as well as the need to virtue signal contempt for working class and small town social values.

I think you underestimate the degree to which open borders is actually literally in their self-interest, with the exception of tech workers whose wage negotiation power is undermined by foreign workers with H1B visas, whose residence is tied to their employment (i.e., severely limiting their ability to "walk away" in wage negotiations).

For someone like me (a lawyer) who doesn't make anything and is partially insulated from the free market by a guild monopoly, free trade and open borders lower the costs of any goods and services I might buy. Costs will naturally tend to be bargained down towards a global average which is, of course, way lower than the US level. To some extent, minimum wage laws can attempt to limit the natural market impact of an open immigration policy as far as domestic services are concerned, but I doubt their efficacy. For goods, a minimum wage is just going to displace manufacturing overseas, once the difference in cost of labour exceeds the costs of relocation. Indeed, the effect of many of our free trade agreements is less to reduce our functionally nonexistent tariffs than to reduce the costs of this kind of relocation to lower cost countries by harmonizing some regulations and introducing mechanisms like investor-state dispute resolution that give enterprises greater assurance of fair treatment when relocating to jurisdictions where the legal system might otherwise be unreliable. So for someone situated like me, the net effect of open borders and open trade is that all my costs go down, my effective income goes up, I can afford servants, etc., and I am better off all around. It doesn't really matter to me if this destroys communities, lowers measures of social trust, increases cultural friction and "micro-aggression" etc., etc. -- I'm sufficiently well off that I can insulate myself from all that unpleasantness, and in any event I have already procured a bolt-hole overseas against the time when Winter is here at last, and the natives rise up to eat us.

The other effect of free trade and open borders, particularly in places like California, is crowding out of native African American workers by legal (and especially illegal) immigrants. I don't think the supporters of increased immigration are exactly unaware of this effect, but I also don't think they have allowed themselves to think through what this means. Crimestop, you know.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

The fiefdoms will fall if the Republicans execute on Revitalization, Rehabilitation, and Reconciliation. They need to stop waging social justice, end elective regime changes, avoid resetting cold wars, stop forcing refugee crises, curtail excessive immigration (i.e. exceeding rate of assimilation and integration), end illegal immigration, reduce environmental and labor arbitrage, make health care affordable and available, make education available and affordable, end [class] diversity policies, normalize the end of abortion rites, and regulate the Fannie/Freddie-like redistribution bubbles.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"and in any event I have already procured a bolt-hole overseas"

Is that a gay thing?

mockturtle said...

Rocketeer replies: The farmers of Attica have always known they can feed themselves; the self-proclaimed aristos of Athens are just awakening to the knowledge that it cannot prosper without both Attica and grain shipments from recalcitrant colonies, and that newfound knowledge is more unbearable to them than the coming hunger.

The tech industries consider themselves self-supporting and indispensable. Let them eat code.

Dave S said...

"Yeah, it's pretty obvious that if push really came to shove, Civil War would not go well for Team Blue. But holy smokes! Are we as a nation really entertaining the notion of Civil War? Or is this just click-bait hyperbole? I suspect that despite the hysteria from some quarters of the Left, things aren't anywhere near as dire as being on the brink of a shooting war."


It is hyperbole. OTOH, the period before the civil war was one in which each side was unable to see those on the other as descent people worthy or respect. One member of congress was celebrated for beating another near to death with his cane.

Larry J said...

I think you underestimate the degree to which open borders is actually literally in their self-interest, with the exception of tech workers whose wage negotiation power is undermined by foreign workers with H1B visas, whose residence is tied to their employment (i.e., severely limiting their ability to "walk away" in wage negotiations).

For someone like me (a lawyer) who doesn't make anything and is partially insulated from the free market by a guild monopoly, free trade and open borders lower the costs of any goods and services I might buy.


It isn't just programmers who're being hit by outsourcing. Legal work is also being outsourced to places like India. It's different when your livelihood is being threatened, isn't it?

Bruce Masterson, the chief operating officer of Socrates Media, asked his outside counsel to customize a residential lease for all 50 U.S. states in 2003. About $400,000 was the firm's estimate. He rejected that cost and hired QuisLex, a firm in Hyderabad, India, that did the work for $45,000.

"It was good quality," said Masterson, whose company, which is based in Chicago, publishes legal forms on the Internet. "We've been working together ever since."

Clients are pushing law firms like Jones Day and Kirkland & Ellis to send basic legal tasks to India, where lawyers tag documents and investigate takeover targets for as little as $20 an hour. The firms are part of a trend that will move about 50,000 U.S. legal jobs overseas by 2015, according to Forrester Research in Boston.


It doesn't matter if you can buy a toaster for $2 cheaper due to outsourcing if you lost your job building toasters.

Brando said...

Anyone in the country who thinks they have no need for urbanized areas (which include metropolitan areas outside cities) are as delusional as urbanites who think they can get along just fine without the rurals. Whose politics are superior is ripe for debate, but face it--you're intertwined with the very people you despise.

Brando said...

"It isn't just programmers who're being hit by outsourcing. Legal work is also being outsourced to places like India. It's different when your livelihood is being threatened, isn't it?"

Yeah all of that can cut either way.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"The tech industries consider themselves self-supporting and indispensable. Let them eat code."

Is this where we all pretend that food comes from Grant Wood type folks?

Ma: Golly, them city folk gots Iphones.

Pa: Yup, we ain't given them no kale.

Ma: Whopped em' again.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

If only we could do away w/ the folks that are succeeding in the 21st century, and replace them w/ good con economics like Alabama and Mississippi.

Yes, exactly. Those people just need to go out into a field and die, the losing losers.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Is this where we all pretend that food comes from Grant Wood type folks?

Don't be ridiculous, food comes from grocery stores!

robother said...

@Balfegor: "I think you underestimate the degree to which open borders is actually literally in their self-interest..."
As I suspect you see, short-term self interest and long-term self interest often get confused, along with the assumption of how many in even the upper half can survive.

The Blue State Model end game (aptly summed up in the Wall Street derivatives trader motto "I be gone, you be gone") works for the top .01% of the heap, not even the entire top 1 %, in the event of financial and societal collapse. "No man is an island" isn't just a pretty poetic sentiment.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

And organic, pesticide free neighborhood gardens.

Sam's Hideout said...

Decentralization per se isn't a conservative philosophy, libertarians are more interested. Finding and maintaining a proper relationship between states and the federal government is a conservative theme.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Food deserts are genocide!

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Ron,

Don't forget raising your own hipster chickens/eggs (w/ the statistically much higher likelihood of disease v store bought.)

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Oh, the many happy hours I have spent picking pests from the heirloom tomatoes at my neighborhood urban garden. It connected me back to Gaia, enriching my spirit as I helped to heal the planet.

damikesc said...

I, for one, do not view Progressives as evil. I view them as naive and uninformed.

I shouldn't speak for others.

I view them as evil and destructive. This is a rather recent phenomenon. I used to view them as naïve and uninformed.

Then came the gay wedding gestapo. Then the attack on nuns for not offering birth control.

If only we could do away w/ the folks that are succeeding in the 21st century

When the floods hit, their success is going to be demonstrated as being illusory.
At that point, I can no longer view them as naïve. Destructive culturally has been an issue for years. Now physical destruction is their cause du jour.

Funny, I bet the poster would oppose banning alimony and doesn't get the reason I mention it.

Barry Dauphin said...

People tend to like it when they get their way.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

here's a link to the podcast of the antifas interview. Its "See You in Court'>

http://www.npr.org/podcasts/452538775/on-the-media

J. Farmer said...

Wait, you mean relentlessly imposing massive demographic change on a country over a half century will result in that country being more fractured and divided? I had no idea. And here I thought diversity was a strength. Oh well, I'm sure once the country is a majority-minority country by 2050, things will be going just swimmingly. It's not as if Latin America was plagued by chronic inequality, social stratification, and dysfunctional political institutions or anything.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

An important lesson of last year’s presidential election is that American political norms are much weaker than they had appeared, allowing a scandal-plagued, unpopular candidate to triumph

Apparently they're still in denial over Trump's opponent being even more scandal-plagued and unpopular.



Todd said...

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...
An important lesson of last year’s presidential election is that American political norms are much weaker than they had appeared, allowing a scandal-plagued, unpopular candidate to triumph

Apparently they're still in denial over Trump's opponent being even more scandal-plagued and unpopular.

2/14/17, 3:40 PM


Yep, sort of like when Stalin's cousin complained that Churchill was despicable because he yelled at a dog once...

sunsong said...

Why not an amicable divorce? I can tell you that we are NOT turning back, no matter what...

Birkel said...

Those of you postulating urban warfare are silly. In a hot shooting war between citizens that did not involve the military (absurd!) there would be roadblocks and barricades to every major city in addition to naval blockades of arriving vessels. The cities would empty long before a shot sounded in urban areas.

The smuggling operations could not feed cities of any size.

Balfegor said...

Re: 3rdGradePB:

Is that a gay thing?

No, my bolt-hole is literally a residence overseas to which I plan to flee when -- frustrated by the professional classes' determined and flagrant efforts to subvert the lawfully elected government of the United States -- the natives rise up to hang us all.

Look, I'm a privileged, credentialed member of the professional upper middle classes living in close proximity to Washington DC. It's people like me who'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

mockturtle said...

Birkel suggests: In a hot shooting war between citizens that did not involve the military (absurd!) there would be roadblocks and barricades to every major city in addition to naval blockades of arriving vessels. The cities would empty long before a shot sounded in urban areas.

Hey, that would make a great video game! Maybe we could settle the whole thing with virtual warfare online!

mockturtle said...

Balfegor, it is not you who needs to flee. It is the Progs. We have a much higher stake in this country than they do. Let Canada and Europe accept these snowflakes and buttercups with open arms! And they will feel all warm and fuzzy with the Muzzies. Just don't expect any real productivity out of them.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Bal,

I was kidding.

But, let's be honest, you're actually talking about a vacation home. Which is the same thing that many moderately well off folks have always been into. Sure, it sounds cooler to describe as some sorta dystopian plan B. That way you can feel like you have something in common w/ actually rich folks who really know how to escape.

Hint: If your compound doesn't include a fresh water lake, you ain't a real playa.

Just sayin'

Birkel said...

mockturtle:

As a game the WOPR would inform one side "Strange game. The only way to win is not to play." and the other side "Give 'em hell."

Ferris Bueller would be surprised.

AReasonableMan said...

I think the country has become ungovernable, the goals of its citizens are too diverse.I would like to see the north-east states secede. That would make a more manageable country.

Brian said...

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and suggest that the city of Asheville probably does not a complete water cycle adequate to sustain its population contained entirely within its city limits. That is, I'm going to guess that the water system that Asheville wants to control both takes water in from and discharges water out to the surroundings of the city --- out where those people who (we are told) shouldn't get a say in anything the Asheville water system does live.

buwaya said...

Balfegor,

That is prudent. I have similar arrangements.
I have avoided making enemies but it takes just a small thing to fall on the wrong side one way or another. The dividing line is not a line anymore but a razor.

Mockturtle,

When people have many enemies, they are not likely to be very discriminating. And the coverage pattern of friends and enemies is not too predictable. No amount of pleading "but I'm on your side" is likely to work. It doesn't work now.

Michael K said...

"I think the country has become ungovernable,"

I think you and the rest of the left wants that to be the case.

We'll see,

rcocean said...

When SF, LA, NYC, Seattle, and Portland respect the right of "rural" America to live as they like - then I'll have some sympathy.

The same people who want "big cities"to live as they like want to impose their liberal social values on the rest of the country, and have open borders, and suck up tax money for welfare, etc.

rcocean said...

"I think the country has become ungovernable,"

Yeah, and it will only become "governable" when we have Liberal Democrat back in the White House.

rcocean said...

If we can "sanctuaries" from the immigration laws, maybe we some rural counties should declare themselves "sanctuaries" from abortions or the judge-made bans on school prayers.

Unknown said...

I read too quick, expecting something about how the liberals are overwhelmingly concentrated in big cities and have held the reins of power because that's where the majority of voters live. That they have successfully imposed on the sticks their regulations and philosophies.

Backtracked to see the complaint is the sticks are ascendant, and the big city liberals don't like the idea anymore that one side can make the rules. Not sympathetic. At all.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Ah, PB, look to the south for the City of the Future; specifically, Rio, which has many, many poor people, a small middle class and some extremely rich people. The WSJ published an article a few years ago about how the rich live there now. They all have heliopads because that's how they get around the city. It's too risky to walk or travel by car because of kidnappers, even with security guards and cars that are built like armored tanks. The security guards,drivers, and servants are not always reliable. Plastic surgeons are really racking in the dough because kidnappers who are not paid promptly are in the habit of slicing off the noses and ears of their victims.

Think of it as adding thrills and excitement to jaded lives.

SockPuppet#55 said...

"Balfegor, it is not you who needs to flee. It is the Progs. We have a much higher stake in this country than they do."

Oh really? And why would this be?

AReasonableMan said...

cocean said...
Yeah, and it will only become "governable" when we have Liberal Democrat back in the White House.


I didn't think it was very governable with Obama in the white house. Very little of his agenda passed. Time to break it up. Let the north east become an independent country. Once, when we all watched the same television shows and had a reasonably well agreed upon set of facts the country was more governable. Now, there is just too little in common between the various regions. I would be happier living a smaller more homogeneous country. I would like to see that country become more like Canada and Europe. North-East America could do that without upsetting the rest of the country.

OLDFART said...

Red people have far more guns and ammo.let the liberals try!

AReasonableMan said...

OLDFART said...
Red people have far more guns and ammo.let the liberals try!


This absurd empty braggadocio has become increasingly prevalent. The union has degenerated into a bad marriage, constantly bickering over the same old things and unable to move on to more productive activities. We should seek an amicable divorce. Maybe Trump will be the catalyst for this. Maybe the absurdity of his presidency has made the unthinkable thinkable and even possible. I am now willing to vote for secession.

Jon Ericson said...

Tell us about Rio, Pedro.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Regarding the number of guns in the inner cities: I own a couple of pistols and have become fond of target shooting. I go to an urban one in the winter and a suburban one with an outdoor range when the weather is nice. During the past 2 years, I have seen perhaps 3 blacks at the range - and all three were middle aged men who were clearly not gangsta types. It's not enough to simply own a gun; you have to practice shooting it effectively and that takes a bit of discipline. The black libertarian Internet commentator Tommy Sotomayer has posted some videos of cops or business owners shooting gangstas who have drawn guns on them (in one clip, an idiot was shot when he stupidly tried to hold up - a gun shop). The inner city black dudes are firing in all directions. Lack of training and disregard of gun safety also explains most of those stories where a child picks a gun up off a coffee table and shoots a sibling.

The inner city dudes are good at shooting each other. A military force they are not.

mockturtle said...

ARM announces with appropriate pomp and ceremony: I am now willing to vote for secession.

I will happily vote for your succession, too.

exiledonmainstreet said...

" We should seek an amicable divorce."

This is a tempting idea, as I am sick of leftists and want you tiresome busy-bodies to leave us alone. However, I doubt you were saying the same thing when the shoe was on the other foot several years ago and Rick Perry brought the idea up. Then it was seditious talk by crazy, traitorous Texans. Now that Calexit is a thing; well, gee, now it's reasonable and rational.

Jon Ericson said...

If he doesn't secede,
he might rise through succession,
to be a top annoyance.

AReasonableMan said...

exiledonmainstreet said...
I doubt you were saying the same thing when the shoe was on the other foot several years ago and Rick Perry brought the idea up.


I was/am fine with Texas leaving the union. Like I said, I think its time to back up the truck. It has become unproductive.

Birkel said...

I support "AReasonableMan" renouncing his citizenship and finding a country more to his liking.

Fare thee well.

buwaya said...

In the case of both NY and CA, both would likely split upon their secession. Upstate NY and East/North CA, and possibly San Diego County would go their own way and attach themselves to the rump US.

You would get Portland, out of OR, but not most of the state.

In WA I suspect something similar. In the West, anyway, a secession would result in an inconvenient, incontiguous nation.

In the Northeast I suspect it would be nearly as inconvenient, and there may well be even more splitting of states.

This is the result of a divorce of cultures, which dont cleanly map to regions.

Another major ugliness is that industries on both sides will dis-integrate, HQs separating from their main operations and markets.

Sebastian said...

"I would like to see that country become more like Canada and Europe." They already exist. You can go there. If you have some skills, they might let you in and let you stay. Of course, you could always claim to be a refugee from the "authoritarian" Trump regime. Why have another Canada? It's almost as if you guys don't actually believe in diversity.

But I don't think progs want to secede or emigrate. They want to rule. They want to lord it over the rest of us well and good. None will leave. They'll fight until the bitter end.

Angel-Dyne said...

sunsong: Why not an amicable divorce? I can tell you that we are NOT turning back, no matter what...

If it really were possible to separate cleanly, you go your way and we'll go ours, and you miserable screeching pharisees were no longer able to get all up in our grills any more...

...y'all would be killing and eating each other within a few years.

(Not because I think you'd be going hungry, either.)

Jon Ericson said...

Moby ARM Dick.
Good idea, we'll get right on it.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Don't worry con states, unlike ARM, I don't mind sending my dough to ya.

It'd be nice if you could do basic mathematics such that you'd know you're moocher states, and then you'd say thanks.

But, that's asking too much. Bless your hearts.

So, you're welcome, anyway.


Carry on.

Jon Ericson said...

And introducing the act you've all been waiting for...

Michael K said...

In WA I suspect something similar. In the West, anyway, a secession would result in an inconvenient, incontiguous nation.

I can remember when there was a serious secession movement in WA and the eastern part of the state, east of the Cascades, would become a state called "Lincoln."It was quite serious about 50 years ago.

Birkel said...

@ PB

I appreciate that you believe your own propaganda. Most propagandists don't.

You surpass expectations. Not everybody can be three or more standard deviations below the mean so often.

SockPuppet#55 said...

"None will leave. They'll fight until the bitter end."

Absolutely right.

AReasonableMan said...

Sebastian said...
I don't think progs want to secede


Maybe, but that just confirms what we all already knew. As a moderate, I would like to live in a more amicable and productive country.

Joe said...

"the South didn't want to govern the North"

Except that's exactly what they were trying to do, especially with the Fugitive Slave Act, and when the North elected Lincoln on the promise and hope that he would put an end to this, the south threw a collective tantrum.

The parallels to today are very strong with the chief difference being the geography. As has been shown in several maps, especially the "island" map, the blue enclaves are scattered throughout the US. Nonetheless, they have had a disparate impact on federal legislation (which many on the right joined in on, with the only real disagreement being on what to force people to do.)

Birkel said...

@ Joe

I tend to agree. Democrats in 1861 fought for slavery. Democrats in 2017 want to rule over everybody else.

Not much has changed.

mockturtle said...

Buwaya says: You would get Portland, out of OR, but not most of the state.

You'd sure as hell get Corvallis, Eugene and Ashland.

mockturtle said...

I can remember when there was a serious secession movement in WA and the eastern part of the state, east of the Cascades, would become a state called "Lincoln."It was quite serious about 50 years ago.

There was talk more recently about eastern WA combining with northern ID to form a new state. I think it's time to get serious about redrawing states' boundaries.

holdfast said...

@ARM - Why do you think that folks from rural Connecticut, let alone Maine, want to live in your little Commie paradise ?

mockturtle said...

They'll fight until the bitter end.

It will be bitter but it will also end.

mockturtle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mockturtle said...

ARM muses: As a moderate, I would like to live in a more amicable and productive country.

Amicable on your terms, of course. But productive of what, specifically?

buwaya puti said...

Extracting the net economic effect of such a secession would be an interesting exercise. One would have to adjust, for instance, for the HQ effect, as these blue places are HQ heavy. Their markets and operations however are dispersed through the rest of the nation. I think most of these would split, as companies with foreign operations do, and move much of themselves to the "red"; in addition they would have to report taxable income in the red zone, which would be a large chunk, if not the bulk of it. Even the actual development of intellectual property is decentralized these days, so we may be seeing mainly an HQ effect.
And then there is the matter of intellectual property and the full faith and credit of the US. The US will not be there to back their fair treatment in foreign markets for patents, copyrights, etc., and there may well be a corresponding effect on their value as a safe haven and clearinghouse for global investment. There will be no US to serve as an implicit backstop for fair treatment.
There are an enormous number of these issues to tease out.
One cannot simply look at the wealth of San Francisco in isolation, one has to understand that much of its people's income is actually in the form of economic rents from the rest of the nation and the world, and that these rents will be affected, probably negatively, by secession.

Humperdink said...

Steps son lives in central Oregon (Bend). Coffee shop on every corner as the Kalifornians have invaded. Go 25 miles in any direction and there is a gun shop on every corner (I exaggerate a bit).

Todd Galle said...

I don't know about my fellow citizens in the urban areas, but I prepped 150 .30-06 cartridges over the weekend - will load them next Saturday - off to the range after Church and lunch on Sunday. 100 rounds of .243 completed last weekend. I have dies and components for every caliber rifle and pistol I have (except of course the .22). Plus black-powder. After driving gun stores out of cities, where are they planning to get ammunition?

AReasonableMan said...

@ARM - Why do you think that folks from rural Connecticut, let alone Maine, want to live in your little Commie paradise ?

Obviously no political grouping will be perfectly homogeneous. Individual members of the same family differ in their politics. But, there is an irresolvable split in the country between people who have a nostalgic vision, a desire to return to an earlier version of the country, and people who have accepted that we live in global economy and nothing is going to change that now. I can see both sides of the coin, but I would choose to live in the more globalist country. I don't see it as productive to continue the same tedious arguments without resolution. Splitting the country along state lines into two or more countries would be a step towards creating more manageable political units and bring a breath of fresh air into the system. Ultimately breaking up AT&T ushered in considerable innovation, although it also had costs, such as the loss of Bell Labs.

mockturtle said...

No exaggeration, Humperdink. I left out Bend. Definitely blue but most of central and eastern Oregon is redder than red.

Laslo Spatula said...

buwaya puti said...
2/14/17, 8:26 PM

Very interesting view of the matter.

SF: Pandora's box HQ.

I am Laslo.

Humperdink said...

The other thing about Bend, Oregon is that every third adult has a service animal of some kind. Strange place.

Alex said...

The real divide is red vs blue counties, not states. Of course it's a political battle, not a military one much to the chagrin of the left-wing who seem to be trying their darnedest to gin up a Civil War 2.0.

Fritz said...

They get all the Starbucks, we get all the food, raw materials, and energy.

Bob R said...

I love that all of the complaints are about the loss of power to deny liberty.

We're not allowed to prevent business from paying under $15/hr.
We're not allowed to prevent people from using plastic bags.
We're not allowed to prevent people from buying guns.

How horrible that the stage can control us.

Irony is dead

Alex said...

Unless you're talking about really small towns, Starbucks are in red counties too. Probably other local coffee shops as well that make Italian style coffee.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Fritz is a lib plant.

You cons didn't fall for his suggestion. As if you'd set yourselves up so mega job creators could extract resources on the cheap (relative to the current situation) so the brain power industries in LoserHippyIstan can lower their costs by importing from RedStateThatGodLovesIstan.

Those libs are tricky.


Carry on.

mockturtle said...

The other thing about Bend, Oregon is that every third adult has a service animal of some kind. Strange place.

And most of the service dogs are for 'psychological' disabilities.

buwaya puti said...

Another matter of importance is security and the balance of power and it's effect on the business climate. How guns relate to gold.

Consider Caribbean tax shelters. They are reasonably safe because, frankly, the security of these places is guaranteed by the US armed forces. No native or neighboring would-be kleptocrat is likely to be permitted to ruin the game. Venezuela for instance has threatened some of these, and Panama of course was "rescued" from home grown misfortune.

A seceded US urban entrepot, NY say, will not be protected by the adjoining power. NY currently is a wealthy city on the edge of the world's most powerful country, therefore a safe place to deposit the world's wealth. The horde of nearby rednecks are friendly.

Upon secession though it would have to consider it's still very powerful new neighbor a hostile nation, as no divorce is likely to be very amicable. This sort of situation will not be a good thing for a place that lives by holding other people's money.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Anywho, I hope there'll be exchange students.

Maybe MIT and Liberty U can set up something.


mockturtle said...

Red & Blue by county: US by County Map

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Buw,

Et tu?

I thought you'd avoid flying the white flag of defeat.

But, nope.

Anywho, please do go on about cons having guns. That's such compelling proof that they're not backward losers who mooch off the folks who are succeeding in the 21st century economy.

Cons are great, we can mug you because we have guns!






3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Violence rules!
Violence rules!
Violence rules!
Violence rules!
Violence rules!
Violence rules, guns are cool and we've got guns, in our school
Violence rules, guns are cool and we've got guns, in our school
Twenty people livin' on a desert isle
They're all friendly, they all smile
Then the food supply gets too low
Twenty people, ten gotta go
Violence rules, guns are cool and we've got guns, in our school
Violence rules, guns are cool and we've got guns, in our school
A thousand people gather in the streets of Manhattan
The lights go out, guess what happens?
It's time to steal, it's time to shoot!
It's time to rob, taste my boot!
Violence rules!
Violence rules!
Violence rules!
Violence rules!
Violence rules!
Violence rules, guns are cool and we've got guns, in our school
Violence rules, guns are cool and we've got guns, in our school
Violence rules, guns are cool
Violence rules, guns are cool
Violence rules, guns are cool and we've got guns, in our school

buwaya puti said...

But is anything of value still coming from loserhippyistan, or are they just collecting on patents and copyrights and leftover intellectual capital of a previous creative age? That's what it looks like to me.

Even human material may be cut off, given that these places would not be as able to attract students from the "red zone", as they would not receive student financing for a "foreign" education. I expect a large scale flight of faculty from "blue" to "red" to equalize demand.

There will be Asian students of course, for a while anyway. But if Stanford, say, no longer has institutional sway in the bulk of the formerly most powerful country in the world? Things can turn very fast.

buwaya puti said...

Heh, guns are gold, ultimately.

This truth is hidden behind layers of abstraction in a complex society. But something like secession is likely to strip the abstractions.

On matters like guaranteeing economic rents, job#1 is to provide security.

How much security is the City of New York likely to provide its investors if it's entire hinterland is their enemy? Even the NY National Guard is Republican, AFAIK. A city on the edge like that can pull a Singapore, against the rest of Malaysia, if it's a more or less self-sufficient island. Not otherwise.

Humperdink said...

Someone have too much coffee? The cafe is on another thread.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Coffee?

There'll be no more coffee in the loserhippyistan Starbucks because, as Buw knows, if you can't get stuff, like coffee beans, from redstatethatgodlovesistan, you got nothin'.

Anywho, I need to get back to my cup of Alabama joe.

buwaya puti said...

And don't joke about NY riots.
This sort of thing is days away, at best, in a crisis. The population of NY has more than a few people who could provide all the rioting anyone could ask for.

The mercenary army called the NYPD is made up mainly of barbarians from the outer provinces. They are the only thing keeping the place from uncontrollable riots. This is true of most "blue" places, as they consist disproportionately of a class of poor clients voting as their masters require.

No barbarian mercenaries, no NY. NY's own "creative" population cannot survive the wrath of their own clients.

buwaya puti said...

No foreigners (including those from Indiana) dropping bucks into Seattle, SF or NY, there will be no bucks to buy coffee from Colombia. Actually there is likely to be a terrific capital flight, maybe to Indiana. Money flies to safety.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Buw,

That's the trap.

Sure, you got to jabber about blue lives and such.

But, you just emphatically put yourself against the loser rioter thugs who would use a gun to take from others.

Get it?

Humperdink said...

Ah, what to invest in? Some wit said food, fuel, firearms. Hmmm.

exiledonmainstreet said...

buwaya puti said...
No foreigners (including those from Indiana) dropping bucks into Seattle, SF or NY, there will be no bucks to buy coffee from Colombia. Actually there is likely to be a terrific capital flight, maybe to Indiana. Money flies to safety.

2/14/17, 9:53 PM

But that can't be right. PB assures us that those little blue dots on the map of the US will be just fine without the hinterland deplorables holding them back.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Imagine the irony when the brain power nation is forced to build a wall to keep out the low/no regulation/taxation(for job creators) folks who they milk for cheap sources.

I guess that some sorta intellectual victory for the backward states/country.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

You folks keep repeating that the only thing going for the Red states is the stuff they can get from the ground or the fact that they can use guns to steal from others.

Make Red States Africa: MRSA

buwaya puti said...

PB&J,
I don't know, there is more than one side in all this. I was trained and educated as one of the equites, the patricians, the philosopher kings, but it doesn't take much to see that these are weak and decadent.
Besides these there are the brutalized urban plebs, and the barbarians in the hinterland. All in all the barbarians seem like the best bet.

buwaya puti said...

The point, PB&J, is that the Blue dot brains (allegedly, facts not in evidence) live on rents, which are ultimately guaranteed by state power, i.e. guns. Hired guns in all cases, held by Red men.

Tick off the Red men too much, and no guns, and no rents.

AReasonableMan said...

buwaya puti said...
Heh, guns are gold, ultimately.
This truth is hidden behind layers of abstraction in a complex society. But something like secession is likely to strip the abstractions.


If this is the only argument you have then you have already lost the argument. By resorting so quickly to the threat of violence you inadvertently acknowledge which side has the real power.

NorthEast America would be a liberal democracy, similar in size to Germany. It would be a significant nuclear power (Leo Szilard was on the Columbia faculty and had the patent), but have a relatively small standing army. It would have universal health insurance.

mockturtle said...

I worked for a large corporation whose HQs and R&D were in the Seattle area but whose operations were all in small-town USA with a few abroad. Now, tell me: Which is more important, a building full of managers or the raw materials and means of production?

Lewis Wetzel said...

"By resorting so quickly to the threat of violence you inadvertently acknowledge which side has the real power."
It was the ACLU that put Kim Davis in Jail.

buwaya puti said...

Northeast America is more likely to be a disconnected series of enclaves with no industry, no natural resources, and no longer able to serve as providers of financial services to the remainder of the country or the world.
Because who would send money there?
They would be immediately seen for what they are, unviable collections of consumers with nothing to offer, certainly not security.
After some shakeout (those able to flee, will) they may come to resemble the Gaza strip.

AReasonableMan said...

NorthEast America would be a bit like Israel, a technologically advanced state surrounded by theocratic provinces in an intellectual desert.

Lewis Wetzel said...

" . . . a technologically advanced state surrounded by theocratic provinces in an intellectual desert."
This statement is hard to support.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"Now, tell me: Which is more important, a building full of managers or the raw materials and means of production?"

Ha ha ha.

Let me guess: it's better to be one insignificant/expendable spec among a sea of specs that is busting your asses for shit-dough so that to the unfortunate rich folks can have great lives.

Got it.


P.S. I think y'all should stick w/ the argument that Red states will use guns to steal from folks who are more successful and innovative than they are. Arguing that you're not important and can be replaced seems counterproductive.

Just sayin'


Or, maybe you'll unionize!


Good stuff on this thread.

Balfegor said...

Re: 3rdGradePB:

Sure, it sounds cooler to describe as some sorta dystopian plan B. That way you can feel like you have something in common w/ actually rich folks who really know how to escape.

Hint: If your compound doesn't include a fresh water lake, you ain't a real playa.


Haha, fair enough, I suppose. But historically, lots of people kept houses or flats in the US, in case, you know, they lost a war or something. They didn't pick places in the boonies -- they're not preppers. No, they usually picked New York City. It's exile, not the apocalypse.

buwaya puti said...

"Escape from New York" may be prophetic. The population would look different of course.

AReasonableMan said...

buwaya puti said...
Northeast America is more likely to be a disconnected series of enclaves


This is delusional. Upstate NY is not binding its economic future to NoNothingistan. They may be hicks but they are not suicidal. NorthEast America would encompass the entire north east states and become a economic powerhouse of innovation. NoNothingistan would struggle but ultimately find a place providing NorthEast America with cheap imports and labor.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

BTW,

Mock, as we've noted before, if you were still w/ them you could stop writing "Seattle area."

Now it's "Downtown Seattle."

And yet, you still can read the writing on the wall.

“To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.”



Cool.

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