January 25, 2017

"Dow hits 20,000 for first time ever."

"After weeks of close calls, the Dow made history on Wednesday by blowing past that key level for the first time ever."
The historic milestone leaves the Dow up a stunning 1,667 points since President Donald Trump's victory in November.

The achievement is evidence of how optimistic investors have become about the prospects for the U.S. economy.

101 comments:

Patrick said...

Paul Krugman hardest hit.

AllenS said...

"It really does now look like President Donald J. Trump, and markets are plunging. When might we expect them to recover?

Frankly, I find it hard to care much, even though this is my specialty. The disaster for America and the world has so many aspects that the economic ramifications are way down my list of things to fear.

Still, I guess people want an answer: If the question is when markets will recover, a first-pass answer is never." -- Paul Krugman

emphasis added.

Matthew Sablan said...

I await the hot takes on why this is bad.

Hunter said...

If the question is when will this not be funny, a first-pass answer is never.

bagoh20 said...

The stock market reminds me of my girlfriend who turns up the volume on the music each time she hears a song she likes until it's earsplitting, but turns it all the way off just to look in her purse. The DJ has been on a roll for a long time.

Michael McClain said...

Uh, we were told by our ProgCong Betters that the election of DJT would result in a Wall Street market collapse.

Heh.

Meade said...

#NotYourStockMarket?

Bay Area Guy said...

If the market drops anytime in the next 4 years, it will be front page news attributed to one or more things President Trump did.

And if the market surges anytime in the next 4 years..............

traditionalguy said...

We are witnessing the simple effect of Trump unifying the forces that must work together for success. Those are the forces that Obama/Pelosi/Reid carefully set at one another's throats the better to to sell out influence to the highest bribe offer.

BADuBois said...

Paul Krugman, NYT, hardest hit.

Original Mike said...

Krugman: "...even though this is my specialty."

Not so much.

Scott McGlasson said...

Hack economists hardest hit.

“If the question is when markets will recover, a first-pass answer is never.” - Paul Krugman, 11/9/16.

Meade said...

Buy the false news; sell the alternative facts.

Matthew Sablan said...

The sad thing is that text book writer Krugman is actually a fairly smart guy; it is op-ed writer Krugman who says terribly stupid things.

rehajm said...

Matthew Sablan said...
I await the hot takes on why this is bad.


Oh they're already out there. Apparently we've already priced in any and all the possible gains we could expect from any benefits of any and all Trump polices. And he hasn't even started his trade war yet.

Curious George said...

AllenS said...
"It really does now look like President Donald J. Trump, and markets are plunging. When might we expect them to recover?

Frankly, I find it hard to care much, even though this is my specialty. The disaster for America and the world has so many aspects that the economic ramifications are way down my list of things to fear.

Still, I guess people want an answer: If the question is when markets will recover, a first-pass answer is never." -- Paul Krugman"


Paul Krugman said he was "a president who was obviously mentally ill the moment he took office" yesterday.


traditionalguy said...

And DJT's team of Billionaires hasn't been confirmed yet. The world markets are happy just to see them coming on soon.

Rule #1 Markets need confidence the Governments will do what they say they will do. DJT is now seen world wide as our Von Bismarck...a man who means everything that he says.

SayAahh said...

Ooh, the vapors from so much winning.

bagoh20 said...

This long-running bull market is all about having no other place to make passive income. The heights are treacherous, but there is strength in the underlying cause. Unfortunately, I missed this wave back when getting in was a fantastic play. You want to see this thing crash? All I have to do is invest, and I can guarantee that's the day it will.

F said...

Obama supporters will point out that the Dow was at 19,743 on January 19th, and take credit for the run up.

Original Mike said...

"Ooh, the vapors from so much winning."

Even the UW hockey team is winning again!

William said...

The DJ is an unstable fulcrum. I predict that sometime in the future the market will take a steep fall. This fall will clearly be Trump's fault. This current increase is the fruit of the wise policies that Obama has planted over the past eight years.

buwaya said...

I wouldnt put much stock in the market (hah).
It was due for a fall, and it will, soon I think.
A bubble, bubbling because there is nowhere else for a lot of cash to go, few real concrete investments being available.
Its been further inflated by irrational exuberance.

Original Mike said...

"You want to see this thing crash? All I have to do is invest, "

So, how much money do you want to stay out?

LYNNDH said...

I blame Bush!

Hagar said...

Calm down people. The bill for that much borrowing has to come due.

Michael K said...

" DJT is now seen world wide as our Von Bismarck...a man who means everything that he says."

I agree but at some point interest rates will have to go up as the ZIRP cannot go on forever.

Then it will be Trump's fault.

I also wish I had been smart enough to get in this market back in 1994 when it all began with the GOP Congress.

rehajm said...

bagoh20 said...

You want to see this thing crash? All I have to do is invest, and I can guarantee that's the day it will.


I'm always looking for new contrarian indicators!

Let me know if you need the peak of the residential real estate market. I can help you there...

AllenS said...

I'll start worrying about the stock market (that I rely on for income), when Krugman starts talking about what a genius Trump is.

traditionalguy said...

The values of investments traded on exchanges for liquidity is like the water in a bathtub that sloshes up and down, but the waves have to get higher and higher as water is added to the tub.

Trump is attracting a flood of water from all over the world, even as the rising dollar makes it more expensive. That is an accomplishment....and Nobama goes off on his eternal golfing vacation, which is his only known skill set.

Meade said...

"You want to see this thing crash? All I have to do is invest, "

So, how much money do you want to stay out?
------------------

I'll take that short position. As a hedge.
#GoFundbagoh20ToStayOutOfMarket

Original Mike said...

Simple strategy. Get in and stay in. 2008 was just a blip, ride it down and ride it back up. However, I am now old enough that time is not on my side anymore. Time to think about unwinding.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

If the market drops anytime in the next 4 years

Expect the market to drop when the Fed increases rates. Risk adverse investors and smart mutual funds managers will move some money to bonds, interest bearing vehicles and take some profits Risk adverse, long term savers, pension funds who are restricted in their investments will gradually move to higher interest rate and (supposedly) less risky investments.

Up until now/then, the market has been the only game in town for appreciation and for dividend returns. Now. If/when Trump and Congress lower the Corporate tax rate, that may mitigate some of the movement as dividends may rise since less money is being siphoned off to the government and the ROA on dividend paying stocks will be better.

Lowering the Capital Gains tax will also cause some roiling in the markets since many people will be more interested in realizing those deferred capital gains and take some profits. However, they may also reinvest back into the market in hopes of more future gains. Those people are not necessarily interested in current income. Mutual funds and other money managers will be looking closely at re-positioning.

All of this is a good thing. However, the temporary dips and movements in the market will be spun out of control by the media as being the freaking end of the world as they know it.

Ignoramuses.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Also added. When the market dips because people are taking profits or moving to higher interest rate positions. That is a good time to strategically invest.

Gusty Winds said...

Mark Cuban: 'Huge, huge' losses for stocks if Trump wins

Douchebaaaaaaag!

AllenS said...

DBQ, how are you doing with the heavy snow in your area?

Meade said...

"I also wish I had been smart enough to get in this market back in 1994 when it all began with the GOP Congress."

I got in back in 1981 not because I was smart but because I was just barely smart enough to know that I wasn't smart and barely smart enough to take good advice from an old man. What I did have in 1981 was time, a modest income stream, and a vague desire to not be poor.

I'd be happy to give that simple advice to any 27 yr-old today — Step 1. 15% of your income every month Step 2. for the next 30 years Step 3. PROFIT!!!

Original Mike said...

"I'd be happy to give that simple advice to any 27 yr-old today — Step 1. 15% of your income every month Step 2. for the next 30 years Step 3. PROFIT!!!"

Meade and I must be long lost brothers.

Meade said...

Brothers out of different mothers, Original cousin Mike.

rehajm said...

"I'd be happy to give that simple advice to any 27 yr-old today — Step 1. 15% of your income every month Step 2. for the next 30 years Step 3. PROFIT!!!"

Excellent advice! If you ever want to light up a young person's face with the realization of one of life's great secrets, show them a compound return table utilizing this strategy.

Meade said...

rehajm, that's exactly what that old man showed me back in 1981.

sunsong said...

The greedy rich LOVE Trump!

Meade said...

I just wish that old man were still alive today so I could take him out to dinner and tell him thanks.

Original Mike said...

"The greedy rich LOVE Trump!"

If you say so. I wouldn't know.

Meade said...

"The greedy rich LOVE Trump!"

So will the greedy poor.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

The greedy rich LOVE Trump!

And so does anyone with a pension plan, who owns a mutual fund, who has an IRA or Roth, who has a 401k, who has a 403b. That's a lot of people Sunsong. You might want to consider that everyone wants to get richer....or at least sane people do.

Original Mike said...

"You might want to consider that everyone wants to get richer....or at least sane people do."

The statists want us all to be wards of the state.

MaxedOutMama said...

So much winning that you'll get tired of winning!

Krugman is already tired of the winning. He's calling for a parliamentary form of government now, because of all the winning.

Guildofcannonballs said...

"You want to see this thing crash? All I have to do is invest, and I can guarantee that's the day it will."

That's what happened after I donated $7 to Trump.

Then I said fuck it and donated another $35, this as after pussygate.

I told people here, I said "do your math."

The answer was and is The Answer, and has confirmed for me I am the center of the galaxy, hitchhiking at times yet not that that's a label I would use like some have applied "Dude," but only when I post here for some odd reason. Methods of mystery unknown.

eric said...

Warning Will Robinson. Warning!

buwaya said...

A parliamentary form of government would be a good idea.
Its likely to be better at controlling the bureaucracy.
Also more quickly responsive to the public mood.

eric said...

Blogger Dust Bunny Queen said...
Also added. When the market dips because people are taking profits or moving to higher interest rate positions. That is a good time to strategically invest.


It's going to do a lot more than dip. Because when the correction comes, and it will come, the media will cheer it on with all their talk of doom and gloom. And they will Stoke the fires of anger and resentment it causes towards the administration.

David said...

Irrational exuberance? There is rational exuberance, but I do not think we are there yet.

alan markus said...

@ Dust Bunny And so does anyone with a pension plan, who owns a mutual fund, who has an IRA or Roth, who has a 401k, who has a 403b

Also those who work for non profits (e.g., the SJWs) when some of the outflow is donated to charities. Especially from the foundations that have to spend a certain percentage of their assets each year. I have served on several nonprofit boards - we also did better at times like this.

David said...

"Paul Krugman said he was "a president who was obviously mentally ill the moment he took office" yesterday."

But he's better now, so not to worry.

Krugman might want to check the guy in his mirror though.

sunsong said...

So will the greedy poor.

So for you right wingers - it's still the same mantra, greed is good!!!?

Bad Lieutenant said...

"Paul Krugman said he was "a president who was obviously mentally ill the moment he took office" yesterday."


Paul Krugman is a coprophage. This is obvious from his old column photo, you can see it in his eyes (and his beard; I wouldn't be his barber for the world).

As such, he may be well equipped to judge Trump's mental health under the Takes One To Know One heuristic, but then we have the exhibit of his judgment of the economy ("never"), so perhaps we can leave Krugman to his diet.

Although, for purposes of his own therapy, if Krugman were to transition to eating his words, he might find very little difference.

sunsong said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sunsong said...

"Americans make no concealment of the fact that we want wealth, but there are many other things we want much more. We want peace and honor, and that charity which is so strong an element of all civilization. The chief ideal of the American people is idealism. I cannot repeat too often that America is a nation of idealists. That is the only motive to which they ever give any strong and lasting reaction.”

~ President Calvin Coolidge

Anglelyne said...

sunsong: So for you right wingers - it's still the same mantra, greed is good!!!?

Hey sunsong, if you could be bothered to follow Meade's pop's sound financial advice, you wouldn't have to be so angry that somebody got elected who might limit your access to "greedy" people's savings.

Richard said...

Dr. Krugman, the Nobel Committee called. They want their Prize back ... with interest!

Meade said...

"So for you right wingers - it's still the same mantra, greed is good!!!?"

I don't know about right wingers but I have observed that through human history, greed has done good and indifference has done bad.

Anglelyne said...

eric: It's going to do a lot more than dip. Because when the correction comes, and it will come, the media will cheer it on with all their talk of doom and gloom. And they will Stoke the fires of anger and resentment it causes towards the administration.

Hooo yeah. Count on it.

If the Dems were able to get their shit together, they would be well placed to benefit politically from this inevitable correction. That's why I'm kinda hoping they stay crazy.

Seeing Red said...

Not only the Greedy rich, sun song!

How in the hell do you think some of us poor became middle-class?


Best damn market of all time 1982-1999.


Now that I'm close to retirement, GO BABY GO!


When I was younger, it was said the greatest transfer of wealth the country had ever seen was between The Greatst Generation and the Boomers.

It's not my fault the BoBos partied like it was 1999. Or chose to spend obscene amounts on their children's worthless college degrees.


One of the greatest gifts a parent can give their working teenager is $500 to open the child's IRA. Bonus because it's tax deductible on the kids income tax.

The rule is the child must have $500 of taxable, verifiable income.

Then impress upon them my mother's 11th Commandment.

Thou shalt not touch thy principle.

Seeing Red said...

Principal.

Original Mike said...

"So for you right wingers - it's still the same mantra, greed is good!!!?"

Putting on your own oxygen mask before assisting others maximizes the outcome for everybody.

Seeing Red said...

Man o man o man


If this can keep thru 1st q 2017, people's retirement account statements thru their work....

Seeing Red said...

yes.

I won't have to rely on what you or The King decides I should live on. Or how I should live.


Which was floated during Obama's tenure.


Jealous control freak.

Michael K said...

sunsong is providing the comic relief for this thread. Go for it !

The Democrats must love the poor because they make so many of them.

damikesc said...

If Krugman hadn't flushed all his credibility away a few years ago, he has done so now.

I'll also add, as usual, that the stock market is, honestly, a terrible way to determine economic health. The investors seem as fragile to bad news as an SJW snowflake. Obsessing over share prices has caused massive problems for businesses for years.

However, the press used it to justify Obama's economy, so politically, I cannot really complain. I just don't like using Dow Jones as evidence of prosperity.

damikesc said...

The greedy rich LOVE Trump!

Zuckerburg is spending millions to keep native Hawaiians away from his house. Any guesses who he voted for?

Soros tries to generate misery in countries so he can make money in currency manipulation. Who, again, does he support?

John Kerry parked his yacht in a different state than the one he lived in to save on taxes. He's with what party?

Shall we even get into the Hollywood celebs, who pretty uniformly vote Democrat, and are the most out-of-touch rich shits the world has seen?

Yancey Ward said...

I eagerly await Chuck's commentary on this news.

sunsong said...

I don't know about right wingers but I have observed that through human history, greed has done good and indifference has done bad.

I say bull shit to that. It is love and compassion that do good. Greed harms. Do you believe that George Washington was greedy. I don't. What about Jefferson? Lincoln? MLK? Gandhi? Mother Teresa? Jesus? Buddha? etc etc

Apathy is NOT the opposite of greed. Generosity is, imo.

Anglelyne said...

Seeing Red: Not only the Greedy rich, sun song!

How in the hell do you think some of us poor became middle-class?
[...]

One of the greatest gifts a parent can give their working teenager...


But Seeing, I have it on the best authority that getting sound financial advice from one's parents, and passing it on to one's children, is part of the nefarious web of white privilege

They don't get a pass for being poor, and you don't get a pass for starting out poor. You probably don't get a pass if you're not even white, either, lol. You had advantages (good advice and self-discipline) that other people didn't. You can only atone for this privilege, not by passing on the advice, or helping people develop good habits, or even by being very charitable, but by allowing government bureaucrats to redistribute your savings. Otherwise, you are "greedy". Even if you give every cent away to charities you like.

tcrosse said...

Greed is an ugly word. Let's call it Enlightened Self Interest. Which leads Meryl Streep to demand the big money for her services, and fast-food workers to demand $15/hour for theirs. It's what made Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffet, and Bill Gates billionaires. It's what made Hillary Clinton a millionaire (for a while).

Seeing Red said...

Greed lifted 20% of the world out of poverty the past 25 years or so.

Are you saying that isn't good?

Seeing Red said...

I couldn't believe that reading to one's children is also "white privilege."

Like parents around the world don't read to their kids.

Please. Such provincial thinking.

Anglelyne said...

sunsong: I say bull shit to that. It is love and compassion that do good.

Being loving and compassionate sometimes does good. Sometimes the emotions of "love" and "compassion", directed without intelligence, have disastrous consequences.

But it is always true that talking about love and compassion, which is all you're doing here, has never accomplished jack-shit.

(To take an example from this blog's commenters, I don't have the slightest doubt that "greedy" businessman bagoh20 has done more concrete good in the world, through generating goods, employment, and evil, evil, profit, than you've ever accomplished with all your blather.)

Do you believe that George Washington was greedy. I don't.

George Washington was a savvy, prosperous businessman and investor who, by all accounts, wasn't a big fan of government picking the pockets of honest citizens, and wasn't at all averse to accumulating wealth for himself and his family. So, while he wasn't greedy by my lights, he was certainly "greedy" according to the criteria you've been setting down in this thread.

Seeing Red said...

Love and compassion can teach a man to fish.

Money buys the rod so he has the tools.

Unless you think people should go out and scavage to make their own?

How quaint.

Seeing Red said...

Not everyone wants to dig their own worms, hence capitalism!

Seeing Red said...

If sun wasn't greedy, sun wouldn't have a computer to make these comments.

Seeing Red said...

I'm going to enjoy this as long as I can.

Matthew Sablan said...

If reality has a liberal bias, maybe the market has a conservative one.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Richard said...
Dr. Krugman, the Nobel Committee called. They want their Prize back ... with interest!

1/25/17, 11:03 AM

Nobody don't want nuthin' back that Krugman has touched. Eeeew!



sunsong: I say bull shit to that. It is love and compassion that do good.

As the Chinese diplomat said to David Duchovny's cuckoldress on the HRC free advertising vehicle, Madam Secretary [3x12],

Spare me your idealism. More importantly, spare Africa. I lived through the Cultural Revolution. My father was not so lucky. Idealism kills. Mutual interests save lives.

Minister Chen [to Elizabeth]


Lucid said...

"So for you right wingers - it's still the same mantra, greed is good!!!?"

Putting on your own oxygen mask before assisting others maximizes the outcome for everybody.

- Original Mike

Grabbing that great response.

Michael K said...

sunsong still providing comic relief.

"It is love and compassion that do good. Greed harms"

Yes, love and compassion like Stalin had for his daughter.

You really are an idiot.

Anglelyne said...

tcrosse: Greed is an ugly word.

Greed, in the adult, non-shitlib understanding, is a vice. One of the deadlies. But "accumulating wealth" and "seeking prosperity and financial security", are not greed.

People who don't want to subsidize irresponsible behavior or poorly-conceived social programs are not greedy. And people who want to use other people's money to do so are not generous.

Ants who don't want the fruits of their labor redistributed to grasshoppers are not greedy. And it doesn't follow from this that they aren't generous.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

sunsong said...

Do you believe that George Washington was greedy. I don't.

The people he owned might disagree with you.

Rusty said...

Ignorance is Bliss said...
sunsong said...

"Do you believe that George Washington was greedy. I don't.

The people he owned might disagree with you."

Which has what to do with greed?

sunsong said...



Greed produces a world in which 8 people have more wealth than the bottom half of the entire human population. To me, it is tragic that everyone is not up in arms about that. And yet, I am not surprised with the content of the majority of comments here. It confirms that greed is one of your values.

”As long as I got mine, who cares? another “conservative” value?

Rusty said...

William said...
"The DJ is an unstable fulcrum. I predict that sometime in the future the market will take a steep fall. This fall will clearly be Trump's fault. This current increase is the fruit of the wise policies that Obama has planted over the past eight years."

Yes. Please explain how he did that. Be as detailed and precise as possible. I'll try and keep up.

tcrosse said...

Greed produces a world in which 8 people have more wealth than the bottom half of the entire human population.
And yet a number of those eight are Liberal Heroes.

rehajm said...

The hard thing is, prices are the signals in our economy. If everybody makes the same amount of money, then there's no reason to take a college major in painful computer programming versus pleasant art history. That signal, a little bit of inequality is vastly important to be the signal to people. Here's where you are needed in our economy.

sunsong said...

And yet a number of those eight are Liberal Heroes.

Probably not mine :-) I'm my own kind of liberal. I define the term for myself. Not that I'm not recognizable as such :-)

Oprah has done good in this world, imo, because she educates (she does other things as well), she educates, among other things, about living well and being happy. (Those are things that matter to me). But I frown over her need for billionaire status, (if it is a "need"). I am not against money, or prosperity even, I am against greed. I believe we experienced the tyranny of greed in Sept 2008...caused by freedom without responsibility (lack of regulation) [will greedy people do unscrupulous things that harm others? Yes!]. Something that, again tragically, Trump is bragging about getting done.

Hunter said...

sunsong said...

Greed produces a world in which 8 people have more wealth than the bottom half of the entire human population. To me, it is tragic that everyone is not up in arms about that. And yet, I am not surprised with the content of the majority of comments here. It confirms that greed is one of your values.

Greed is not a value, it's a fact. That people will be greedy is as reliable a fact as that objects with mass will fall to earth with an acceleration of 9.8 m/s^2.

If you attempt to build a system that only works well when greed is abolished, you're going to have a bad time.

sunsong said...

Nancy & Ann Wilson Stairway to Heaven

BN said...

Cause and Effect?

Or a simple case of Fate Getting Fed Up?

You decide.

Gahrie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gahrie said...

Greed produces a world in which 8 people have more wealth than the bottom half of the entire human population.

Have you looked at who those eight people are? I'll give you a hint, there isn't a greedy Rightwinger among them.

There has always, and will always be poor people. Someone will always have more than others and be rich, someone will always have less and be poor. In fact the US literally redefines poverty every year in a constant ratchet upwards. If Trump gave everyone a million dollars, next year the poverty level would be a million dollars. If we stole all of the money from the richest 8 people and gave it to the poorest 3.5 billion people, next year there would be a new group of the 8 richest people, and there would still be 3.5 billion poor people.

The proper indicator is standard of living. And the undeniable truth that the Left hates, and will not acknowledge, is that even as the Earth's population continues to hit all time highs, the levels of poverty and hunger around the world continue to hit all time lows. As new technology creates and distributes more wealth, and as the world's population hits its peak and begins to decline as predicted, this will only continue to get better.

Rusty said...

Sunsong
Greed is what drives economoies.
Oprah wouldn't have been able to anything if she started out doing it for free. She is/was an ambitious driven woman who, in her rise to the top, required everybody to pay up.
You know those prizes she loved to give away to her audience? They were "donated" under the enticement tht if they weren't then that company wouldn't get a favorble endorsement from Oprah. How's that for greed.

Meade said...

There is more than one way to "occupy" Wall Street.