September 1, 2016

Trump has a 10-point plan.

It's a plan. And it has 10-points.

I'll let Roger L. Simon go into the weeds.

Here's the text of the whole speech. I'll just focus on:
End Catch-And-Release....
At Meadhouse, the dialogue was something like:
MEADE: Catch and release?! It's not called "catch and release."

ME: Oh? Hmm. You mean, catch and release is what you do with fish.
Calling it "catch and release" puts it in an interesting light — as if we're catching human beings for sport.

92 comments:

Mick said...

It's really simple. END "BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP". It is not in the 14th Amendment, OR in Wong Kim Ark (159 US 649 (1898)), often cited as a justification never HOLDS that anyone born in the US, even of alien parents, is a US Citizen.

That case holds that the CHILDREN OF LEGAL RESIDENT ALIENS is a US Citizen (See page 693). The practice of birthright citizenship is the way that the New World Order Marxists have invaded our country with third worlders. It provides the magnet, but it is totally illogical in its result, creating a class of illegal parents who's children are supposedly legal US Citizens. It is called KIDNAPPING. The stated 35 Million Illegals are probably more like 90 Million when the children are factored in.

End BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP, deport all minors and their illegal parents, but in fairness, allow the children the choice of US Citizenship when they reach the age of majority. That is the way to solve the problem, created by 100 years of TREASON, and allowing our country to be invaded.

Gusty Winds said...

Catch and Release: Isn't this also the current policy in Milwaukee for car thieves?

Rusty said...

What with the rampant crime, gangs and disease it sure seems like a sport since once caught there is little chance of being sent back. The Mexicans I talk too see it as a game.

rehajm said...

So basically Canada's border and immigration policy.

EDH said...

I have worked ten years on this plan.

It is a very precise and a complicated plan.

I am sick of you terrorists fucking it up.

Now take the weapons where I told you and wait for the bleepdamn signal this time! Goodbye!"

...Why is everyone so fucking stupid?

Birches said...

So here's something I was thinking about last night while I was mulling over all the border talk.

Mexico has been very critical of US gun laws. They blame the U.S. for most of the cartel war, because they say that the cartels get all their guns here.

So why can't someone political frame the wall as mutually beneficial? You don't want our guns, we don't want unauthorized workers or drugs. Win win.

Has border security ever been addressed this way?

TreeJoe said...

I don't know what else to call an organizational approach to catching and releasing people without actually DOING anything with them (i.e. deporting or jailing) then sport.

eric said...

Catch and release isn't an Obama policy. We have had catch and release since I started in 1996.

Also, while people from Belgium and France can certainly obtain visas, they don't need to. Visa waiver countries are a large part of the problem. But, we like to fudge numbers. Any politician can point to a visa waiver country and say, this country isn't a problem that's why they are a visa waiver country. And when pressed, they just need to explain, the visa waiver program automatically kicks out any country with visa waiver abuse of 5% or higher and an audit is done annually.

See? So, no worries.

Big Mike said...

Calling it "catch and release" puts it in an interesting light — as if we're catching human beings for sport.

If you talked -- off the record!!! -- to Border Patrol agents you'd find out that it is, sort of. What's "sporty" about it is that when agents approach a group of illegal border crossers they don't always know whether the group is just people coming north because the streets are paved with gold or whether they're going to encounter armed drug smugglers. If it's the former, then the people rounded up are given lots of water and put on air conditioned buses for the trip back to Mexico. If the latter, then there's a small but not negligible chance their wife will be a widow in the next few minutes.

Curious George said...

"Calling it "catch and release" puts it in an interesting light — as if we're catching human beings for sport."

I guess we could gut 'em and fry 'em if that sounds better.

Brando said...

Most of the problem will go away if you more strictly enforce the laws against hiring people here illegally (to the extent that the risk of getting caught hiring them is far greater than any benefit of having them work for you) and ensure that no state benefits or non-emergency services are provided to anyone here illegally. Romney got criticized for it but "self deportation" is a lot easier and cheaper than setting up another layer of bureaucracy and hiring thousands more agents to go around trying to round people up and run through the legal process (and no matter what, there'll be a legal process).

Mike said...

It is called "catch and release" and a/k/a "OTM" by the Border Patrol, standing for "other than Mexican." The reason these people are caught and released is because we can't drive the OTM back to the Mexican border and "repatriate" them (also a form of C&R) on th spot. They are cited and asked -- on their own initiative -- to show up in court on some future date.

The obvious problem is that none of them actually show up for court and so become illegal aliens released to the wild.

eric said...

Mike,

You're right of course.

But, we should be able to take them back to Mexico, if they came from Mexico.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

Catch and release is to maximize the population.

Chuck said...


Trump says "no amnesty." What does that mean? No citizenship? No legal status? If it means no legal status, what is the alternative? Mass deportation?

Reading the transcript, Trump's script said, 'no citizenship AND no legal status.' That raises many more questions than Trump has answers.

I don't so much disagree with Trump, as much as I'd simply contend that Trump is doing nothing more than reverting to standard Republican immigration principles. Trump is no stronger on immigration than Jeb Bush.

Mike said...

Eric, maybe that's one of the things Trump discussed with el Presidente. If Mexico allows through-passage (and I don't see how Guatemalans get here from there without tacit approval) then yeah, you're right, we should be able to send them back down the same road they used to get here. Now would I trust Mexico to conduct them southward? Nope.

No one said it would be easy.

SteveR said...

Catch and release is what happens...

mockturtle said...

Take a look at the FBI website: 'Most wanted for violent crimes'. Of about 70 listed, over half are Mexican nationals.

Mike said...

I wish Trump would say clearly what Obama and Hillary are doing. They are replacing a voting population resistant to their schemes (Obamacare, ending 2nd Amendment, expanding welfare) with a new population more in line with their socialist tendencies. Same as Merkel is. It is extremely frustrating to leftists that they can't just RULE the way they wish. There's only two things slowing them down, a Supreme Court one vote away from declaring Executive Orders equal to legislation, and a voting public that continually resists their overreach.

Trump's candidacy is the one thing standing in the way of both schemes. That's why they fight so hard against voter ID, and confuse the legal/illegal immigration issue, and push for extended voting (fraud) and release felons and restore their voting rights. It's all of scheme to replace YOU with voters willing to what THEY want.

Chuck said...

btw, if Trump is saying that law-abiding immigrants who pay taxes and commit no crimes will be welcomed, what does that say to Americans who are griping that such people are taking American jobs and driving down wage rights overall?

Kevin said...

"Trump is no stronger on immigration than Jeb Bush."

Trump is for building a wall. That makes him stronger on immigration than any of the other candidates on that fact alone.

Big Mike said...

@Mike, your information seems to be more recent than mine.

rehajm said...

My nana catches the squirrels eating the seed in her bird feeder, puts them in the car, then she drives them to another location release them.

I don't think she's driving them far enough away.

Yancey Ward said...

I thought all 10 points were reasonable, though I would argue that 9 of them make the physical wall on the borders unnecessary.

And what is the major critique this morning? That Trump and Nieto say different things about what was discussed yesterday. If that is going to be the main critique, then Trump has won on this issue in crushing fashion. I don't know if the Clinton campaign can even offer a reply- I suspect the plan will be to try to ignore the issue now, but the fact that even the NYTimes highlighted Trump's day is pretty telling- they don't want him to win, but they can't afford to ignore him in any way- he sells papers.

mockturtle said...

Most of the money remitted to the Mexican economy comes from Mexican immigrants in the US. Almost $25 billion in 2015. So Mexico has a real stake in US immigration, legal or illegal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/05/the-numbers-behind-donald-trumps-threat-to-block-money-from-being-sent-back-to-mexico/

Matt said...

"Catch and release?! It's not called 'catch and release.'"

What's it called? "Informal guidance regarding detention of aliens from a powerpoint slide"? Maybe they should give it a cool acronym: Deferred Action for Non-Violent Aliens or DANVA.

Fernandinande said...

It's not called "catch and release."

Yes it is. Try one of those google things.

Obama reinstates ‘catch-and-release’ policy for illegal immigrants

mockturtle said...

btw, if Trump is saying that law-abiding immigrants who pay taxes and commit no crimes will be welcomed, what does that say to Americans who are griping that such people are taking American jobs and driving down wage rights overall?

Chuck, i didn't hear him say that. In fact, he made quite specific proposals for immigration criteria.

Brando said...

"Trump is for building a wall. That makes him stronger on immigration than any of the other candidates on that fact alone."

Too bad someone didn't propose building a moat filled with alligators or they'd have swept the primaries.

Brando said...

"Trump says "no amnesty." What does that mean? No citizenship? No legal status? If it means no legal status, what is the alternative? Mass deportation?"

It's very simple, Chuck. When Trump says "no amnesty" it means that whatever he actually does, he won't be calling it "amnesty". For example, if he decides everyone currently in this country now and everyone who can hop on over here before his wall gets built gets automatic citizenship, he'll say it's "compassion" but not "amnesty".

Achilles said...

Trump just broke the Overton window again. The 10 points he outlined are common sense. Not even lifelong republican chuck can find a problem with them. He has to claim that Jeb was saying this all along

The open borders crowd is going to have to make the case for open borders. This is why we nominated trump.

Howard said...

Althouse confused by the evolutionary adaptation of the male mind. Everything is sport, how do you think men can do the shit jobs day in and day out?

Fabi said...

I didn't know Trump's plan was just like Jeb's. Did DJT say "Please clap." when he finished?

traditionalguy said...

Catch and release is basic to Governance. It shows newcomers the existence of an authority that keeps the King's Peace in the Kingdom with weapons.

It traditionally was a job done by The Shire's Reeve. Now we call it arresting people , booking them, making them post a bail bond bail, and then releasing them. Shorter version: it's catch and release.

The final missing link is a Trial and a sentence. That is the part Obama refuses to enforce.

hombre said...

"Catch and release" by the Obama administration is a sport. It serves no enforcement purpose. In Arizona, the "catch" of illegals is at the border. The "release" is at the Phoenix or Tucson bus depot.

There are reportedly several hundred (850) bodies in the Tucson, Pima County morgue of immigrants discovered dead in the desert. Some sports are riskier than others, but don't tell the lefties. They claim the sport is called "compassion."

n.n said...

End the refugee crises. Also, all of the incentives (e.g. planned parenthood, outsourcing/insourcing, progressive debt, social justice adventurism, class diversity, Democratic leverage) for immigration replacement.

Yancey Ward said...

Achilles wrote:

"The open borders crowd is going to have to make [emphasis added- Y.W.] the case for open borders."

Exactly right. I predict that Clinton doesn't mention amnesty again unless asked a question point blank.

buwaya said...

"Supreme Court one vote away from declaring Executive Orders equal to legislation"

They have already, even with Scalia alive the SC was only very occasionally blocking regulation. There is such a mind-blowing stream of this coming out, nobody can stop it.

DanTheMan said...

Catch and release? That’s not what’s happening.
It would only be a parallel if I caught and released 3% of the fish that made it into my boat, with the other 97% jumping in, setting up permanent residency, and then demanding I pay to take care of them and their fry forever.
Oh, I would have to learn to speak “fish”, or else be labeled a “specie- ist”.

dda6ga dda6ga said...

Does Meade now need trigger warnings???

mockturtle said...

BTW, the NYT is at it again and being called out on it:

A New York Times story about Donald Trump's immigration plan received so much criticism from media watchdogs, that the paper eventually made changes to the story after it was published online.

Times reporter Patrick Healy said Trump was "shelving his plan to deport 11 million undocumented people." But this doesn't exactly coincide with Trump remarks on Wednesday night in Arizona.

gadfly said...

The immigration policy that Trump outlined has been on his website for months. He didn't write it, he only recites it from his teleprompter. We know for a fact that Trump neither reads nor writes anything. The "tell all" New Yorker article about Trump and his ghostwriter, Tony Schwartz paints a very believable picture of Trump as a person with a very short attention span who never reads but relies instead on television bytes for his news. Schwartz concludes that this has left Donald with “a stunning level of superficial knowledge and plain ignorance.” When Trump insisted that he had written "The Art of the Deal," Howard Kaminsky, the former Random House head, laughed and said, “Trump didn’t write a postcard for us!”

After spending eighteen months observing and writing made-up stories about Donald Trump, Tony Schwartz believes that the real estate magnate is a sociopath and that, my friends, should scare everyone as much as Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter would have us believe, we should be scared of Hillary. But these two so-called Conservatives climbed out on a limb and sawed the limb off behind them.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Catch and release is the policy of our County Sheriff's office with all the tweaker druggies who routinely steal and vandalize.

Catch a meth head stealing from your garage. Put him in jail for a night or two. Release on bail or even OR with a date to appear. Meth head tweaker scum back on the street and he steals from your neighbors yard. Catch and release again with another appearance date. He continues his wreaking harm on innocent citizens, taking things that they have worked all their lives to accumulate..... and of course he doesn't show up to court Too busy being stoned and stealing and fighting with his stoner girlfriend and beating her children. Maybe they catch him again, finally for non appearance, he shows up under duress and they let him go again or maybe a 3 months stint in the county slammer.

Multiply this by 100, by 200, by the thousands.

Is it any wonder that the people have decided to be armed and will shoot anyone who doesn't belong on your property or even anywhere near you.

This is what happens when there is no justice and the laws are ignored. Now extrapolate the County catch and release to the entire Country with the MILLIONS of illegal aliens many of whom are many times worse than the local tweaker loser. They need to enforce the laws, and curb illegal aliens invading the population if we don't want to descend into a completely lawless society.

Matt said...

The eleventh point is: 'Make sure all white conservative males [and Ann Coulter] are pleased with my plan!'.

mockturtle said...

@gadfly He didn't write it, he only recites it from his teleprompter. We know for a fact that Trump neither reads nor writes anything.

Oh, but Obama does, right? We know what a stammering, confused speaker he is without a teleprompter. Very few presidents or presidential candidates write their own speeches. It would be tantamount to acting as one's own defense lawyer if one hasn't a law degree.

mockturtle said...

They need to enforce the laws, and curb illegal aliens invading the population if we don't want to descend into a completely lawless society.

Absolutely, DBQ!

Freder Frederson said...

Point 11. Notwithstanding anything in the other 10 points, Trump Model Management will be allowed to continue to hire improperly documented, underage models.

Talk about rank hypocrisy.

rightguy2 said...

(Point) TWO : END CATCH-AND-RELEASE- This alone could change everything. Why did it ever exist in the first place? The Obama (and undoubtedly Hillary) endorsed catch-and-release always seemed something out of Orwell. Scratch that—Lewis Carroll. ("I caught you sneaking across," said the Mad Hatter. "Now you're released... Here's a hundred dollars and a house. And would you like a cup of tea?") Bravo to Trump for ending it.

What Roger Simon said X 10

Real good stuff

Drago said...

Freder: "Talk about rank hypocrisy."

Don't you have some "Hillary Post Sec of State classified material sending" to excuse?

Better get busy.

For those who don't recall, Freder is the rocket scientists who insists that one cannot actually negotiate with an employer for additional pay or benefits, so, you know, that's the kind of mind we are dealing with here.

Drago said...

Matt: "The eleventh point is: 'Make sure all white conservative males [and Ann Coulter] are pleased with my plan!'."

Matt does his best to continue the narrative.

Good boy Matt!

Whatever you do, don't look at the statistics for what % of incarcerated felons in states like California are illegal aliens. It might upset you.

mockturtle said...

I was waiting for him to address 'sanctuary cities' in his speech yesterday and was so relieved that he did. In addition to cities setting themselves up as sanctuaries for illegal immigrants, the Catholic Church often promotes illegal immigration as well as providing sanctuary.

Drago said...

Another day, another display of incredible Hillary "courage" in avoiding the press which, apparently, is STILL not sufficiently deferential to her though many in the media have already publicly proclaimed their allegiance.

If this keeps up, "lifelong republican" Chuck might inadvertently veer towards an actual substantive "almost-criticism" of Hillary, though admittedly the probability of that outcome remains quite small.

Freder Frederson said...

Release on bail or even OR with a date to appear.

Guess you don't believe in due process. Just shoot anyone on your property and be done with it.

You call that justice? You are sick.

Freder Frederson said...


Don't you have some "Hillary Post Sec of State classified material sending" to excuse?

We're talking about Trump, not Hillary.

For those who don't recall, Freder is the rocket scientists who insists that one cannot actually negotiate with an employer for additional pay or benefits.

Liar

Michael said...

Freder reads Mother Jones. Talk about rank

Brando said...

"I was waiting for him to address 'sanctuary cities' in his speech yesterday and was so relieved that he did"

The defenses for sanctuary cities that I've seen were based on the idea that cops in cities with illegal immigrant populations want to get illegal immigrants to come forward as witnesses or victims of crime to help the cops catch the perps. Whether a tacit "we won't deport you if you come forward with info for us" policy actually works is another thing, but that's the issue that has to be addressed. It's more than just "we have too much local compassion to help the feds deport people".

There's also just the cost of enforcement. Like with the drug war, if there's enough incentive people will keep finding new ways to break the law. We can play advanced whack a mole forever and never keep up with the inflow (despite Trump's assertions of his own competence which are debatable), but as long as there are jobs and services waiting here for them people are going to find ways to get in. Wall or no wall.

Crack down on the employers.

SukieTawdry said...

It is called "catch and release" and a/k/a "OTM" by the Border Patrol, standing for "other than Mexican." The reason these people are caught and released is because we can't drive the OTM back to the Mexican border and "repatriate" them (also a form of C&R) on th spot. They are cited and asked -- on their own initiative -- to show up in court on some future date.

I don't know why we can't catch and release them back at the border. They came in by way of Mexico. Mexico should have kept them out in the first place. Mexico is now giving immigrants from Africa 20-day transit visas so they can travel from Mexico's southern border to ours (I wonder if Trump mentioned that in his little confab with Nieto). They might cease that kind of crap if we continually shuffle them back to Mexican soil.

FullMoon said...

Gadfly said... [hush]​[hide comment]



After spending eighteen months observing and writing made-up stories about Donald Trump, Tony Schwartz believes that the real estate magnate is a sociopath ...


Hold on a second, are you claiming Tony Schwartz intentionally lied for money, and that he is qualified to diagnose a sociopath?

Steve said...

don’t speak ironically, except to rebuke

SukieTawdry said...

The defenses for sanctuary cities that I've seen were based on the idea that cops in cities with illegal immigrant populations want to get illegal immigrants to come forward as witnesses or victims of crime to help the cops catch the perps. Whether a tacit "we won't deport you if you come forward with info for us" policy actually works is another thing, but that's the issue that has to be addressed. It's more than just "we have too much local compassion to help the feds deport people".

Not turning over people who come forward with information is one thing. But ignoring orders from ICE to turn over illegals who are in jail once they've completed their sentences is quite another.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Guess you don't believe in due process. Just shoot anyone on your property and be done with it.

Of course I believe in "due" process and I believe that there should be adherence to the "process. Instead of a process, due or not, we have this catch and release bullcrap where the criminals are given a revolving door in and out of the jail, in and out of the system. Revolving door to continue to commit crimes, mayhem and in general terrorize the population. IN addition, they are almost to a person on the welfare systems so we get to support their worthless butts while they are robbing us blind.

After you have been robbed of your work tools, personal items, gates broken and have to be afraid to leave town for a few days in fear that when you come back you will have your hard earned possessions and precious irreplaceable family heirlooms taken.....you might also consider taking some action. Fortunately we have only lost a few small items. Neighbors have had cars, tractors, equipment, boats, trailers and other items taken....in broad daylight. The government powers that be are certainly not looking out for my and our best interests.

We are on our own and need to act accordingly.

Freder Frederson said...

Freder reads Mother Jones.

Are you going to address and contest the assertions in the article or are you just full of shit?

Drago said...

Freder: "Liar"

Poor Freder.

He keeps mistaking me for Hillary.

Freder Frederson said...

Of course I believe in "due" process

Of course you don't believe in due process (your putting it in scare quotes is a dead giveaway). You might want to get out your copy of the constitution. "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

Drago said...

Freder: "We're talking about Trump, not Hillary."

LOL

mockturtle said...

Brando said: We can play advanced whack a mole forever and never keep up with the inflow

Speaking of moles, a wall won't prevent the traffic on the El Chapo Expressway. Need a plan B.

JaimeRoberto said...

Katie Steinle's killer was a pretty classic case of catch and release. He was caught. And he was released.

Freder Frederson said...

we have this catch and release bullcrap where the criminals are given a revolving door in and out of the jail, in and out of the system.

You do realize we have the highest incarceration rate in the world. Whatever the flaws of the criminal justice system, it is certainly not that we are locking up too few people.

Brando said...

"Not turning over people who come forward with information is one thing. But ignoring orders from ICE to turn over illegals who are in jail once they've completed their sentences is quite another."

That is another matter--I don't even know what the defense to that would be. Frankly I'm all for deporting some actual citizens if they've committed heinous enough crimes.

"Speaking of moles, a wall won't prevent the traffic on the El Chapo Expressway. Need a plan B."

That's part of my problem with a literal "wall" as opposed to layered fencing and razor wire. More important (at least on the border part of it--we also have ports and airstrips, possible entry via Canada, getting through via checkpoints, and then of course visa overstays which together are much greater leak points) is having enough manpower to patrol the fencing and the area beyond it to plug any breaches. Seems a better use of resources and permits a flexible response. Patton said something about fixed defenses being monuments to the folly of man or something--sort of locks you in when your adversary (in this case unauthorized entry) looks for weak points.

Drago said...

Freder: "You do realize we have the highest incarceration rate in the world. Whatever the flaws of the criminal justice system, it is certainly not that we are locking up too few people."

Behold the power of #leftylogic!

mockturtle said...

I do agree that perhaps we have too many incarcerated. Many of them should be put to death.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I do agree that perhaps we have too many incarcerated. Many of them should be put to death.

Or on work details, doing something constructive and learning some skills.

buwaya said...

Slightly off-topic, on the subject of the dysgenic effect of Mexican immigration.
This is a major issue in the alt-right sphere, and one of the major objections to immigration. Just one of several objections of course.

The argument goes that Mexican immigrants of whatever legality have an average IQ of 86, and are not showing signs of improving in US-born generations. This is a major factor in reducing the overall national IQ.

As it happens however, these IQ numbers came from generally old studies (US Hispanics/Mexicans/Asians generally are very poorly surveyed vis-a-vis Black and White Americans). Many re-estimations came out a few years ago indicating that there was a powerful "Flynn Effect" in Hispanic IQ's, based on things like the AFQT, NLSY and the GSS Wordsum data.

A lot of this (and much else) is summarized in Ron Unz's hotly debated article -

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/race-iq-and-wealth/

"In actual values, the Mexican-American Wordsum-IQ increased from 84.4 in the 1980s to 95.1 in the 2000s, while the rise for American whites was from 99.2 to 101.3. In addition, the late 1990s IQ of U.S.-born Mexican-Americans has been separately estimated at 92.4 from the large data set contained in the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (NLSY-97), a figure consistent with these Wordsum-IQ findings."

This is a remarkably rapid improvement in IQ. I have no idea if it will stall out, or already has, but there is some hope at least that the inevitable Idiocracy is not coming from this direction, as Mexicans it seems really aren't so dumb.

One of my hobbies is playing with the hundreds-of-millions of dollars worth of toys the Fed Gov and the EU and the State of CA keeps giving me in the form of data.

To add my little bit, I have been playing with the California K-12 public school test data series. All of these academic achievement tests are extremely highly IQ-correlated. The improvement in California Hispanic academic performance is similarly striking, and parallels the IQ trend in Unz's article.

The differential in Grade 9-11, mean hispanic less white scores on the API index.
2002 -185
2005 -148
2007 -144
2009 -137
2011 -121
2012 -116
Over the same period Asian-white-black gaps barely moved, so I'm inclined to think this is a real change. The white-hispanic "gap" is closing rapidly, or recently has been, unlike the black-white gap on which so much effort has been expended.

Rusty said...

Anybody here who reads fredder, or the other usual suspects, and then reads buwaya has to come to the conclusion that most of the progressives here just aren't that bright. And I don't mean they have their moments. No. They got nuthin.

Mike said...

"I'll let Roger L. Simon go into the weeds. "

You misspelled "ignorantly cheer". Half of what Simon says is garbage. He clearly doesn't know what "catch-and-release" is all about (or that it ended almost a decade ago). Point Five will be hilarious since Trump is planning to implement most of this through executive orders. Why would you link that "analysis" that doesn't go into the weeds at all?

Fernandinande said...

buwaya said...
Wordsum-IQ


"Wordsum" = a 10 word vocabulary test, obviously biased toward native English speakers. Razib gives a .71 correlation to more complete IQ tests for "white, native-Born people".

All of these academic achievement tests are extremely highly IQ-correlated. The improvement in California Hispanic academic performance is similarly striking, and parallels the IQ trend in Unz's article.

On the other hand -
"Achievement gaps widen for California's black and Latino students"
"Although scores declined for all students, blacks and Latinos saw significantly greater drops than whites and Asians, widening the already large gap that was evident in results from earlier years, according to a Times analysis."

The differential in Grade 9-11, mean hispanic less white scores on the API index.

Data?

Paul said...

I prefer we 'catch' illegals and put them in prison for 2 years. During those 2 years they can be in a chain-gang and fix roads, bridges, sidewalks, etc...

Not really enslavement. They wanna work, ok let's MAKE them work and not get free stuff. We are just giving them a skill and work ethic!

And if they are kids, immediate deportation... Devils Island for all I care. There mommy and daddy sent them, well they can go find them.

They must go through the process of LEGAL IMMIGRATION, and they either get a green card or become NATURALIZED CITIZENS. All others need to go back to where they came from and go through the process.

buwaya said...

The LA Times article is about the new test system which has no track record yet. I am using the old test series that were given from 1999-2012. It ran long enough to give useful trends.

Data is all here - download at will - http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/ac/ar/

I use the API reports and data files. Some of the Statewide-subgroup Grade 9-11 API values, 2002-2012 - I don't know if the table works here -
2002 2005 2007 2009 2011 2012
Black 537 578 596 621 649 662
Asian 744 796 814 843 867 875
Filipino 696 755 768 795 824 835
Hispanic 534 597 621 653 688 702
White 719 745 765 790 809 818

Note the absolute values aren't terribly significant year-to-year.
The problem with all these tests is there is a learning effect if the same thing is used every year, as it was, so you will see a spurious improvement trend as schools get better and better at teaching to the test among other things. Look at the gaps though.

Earnest Prole said...

Now that Trump has reversed himself on universal deportation, the vast majority of illegal immigrants in America will be unaffected by his new plan. That’s nice, but he probably should have mentioned it before the end of the Republican primaries.

Clyde said...

"Catch and release" means you aren't really serious about what you're doing. If you're hungry, you aren't going to "catch and release" a fish, you're going to eat the damn thing. And if you're serious about immigration law, you're not going to "catch and release" illegal immigrants; you're going to send them back where they came from. If you do "catch and release" with illegal immigrants, it's just to put on a kabuki show, to create meaningless statistics to show that you "care" and are "doing something about the problem." Most Americans are tired of that.

Fernandinande said...

buwaya said...
Data is all here - download at will - http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/ac/ar/


Thanks - they sure like to make everything as difficult as possible!

I'd like to see some nice clear tables with standard deviations included because you need those to make any sensible analysis of "gaps" (probably the reason they're omitted, according to my top Conspiracy Theorist)

Note the absolute values aren't terribly significant year-to-year.

Well, maybe.

The increase in the absolute values for each group reminded me of Griffe's "CLOSING THE RACIAL LEARNING GAP" wherein scores for every group increase, and gaps in raw data appear to decrease - because the tests got easier. If you look at the std-devs, there is no gap closing.

Also whites who can afford to are leaving CA, changing that demographc:
"California is bleeding working young professional families."

Complicated stuff. Too complicated sometimes, so, as a gay woman, I'm going ditch the internet and drink a margarita thru a straw...

Guildofcannonballs said...

"Blogger FullMoon said...
Gadfly said... [hush]​[hide comment]



After spending eighteen months observing and writing made-up stories about Donald Trump, Tony Schwartz believes that the real estate magnate is a sociopath ...

Hold on a second, are you claiming Tony Schwartz intentionally lied for money, and that he is qualified to diagnose a sociopath?

9/1/16, 2:43 PM"

He is calling Trump a pussy--afraid of killing problematic critics unlike Hillary!.

Even the most Coulteresque Trumpophants must admit Trump doesn't have a body count like Hillary!.

Fernandinande said...

hispanic less white scores
2002 -185
2012 -116


If you look at the Asian-Hispanic difference, it's greater, but decreasing less:
2002 -210
2012 -173

Asian-White: smaller difference, but increasing:
2002 -025
2012 -057

Those seem to imply that the smarter whites are leaving CA. (I'm suspicious of "gap closing", as opposed to just increasing performance of everyone, because the schools are paid to close gaps, so they'll fudge.)

Now the marg.

buwaya said...

"The increase in the absolute values for each group reminded me of Griffe's "CLOSING THE RACIAL LEARNING GAP"

I thought of this; my control in this case is the relative steadiness of the other "gaps".
In this case the test certainly got easier, not because the test changed as it was the same test annually (material in each years tests was drawn from fixed set out of which the annual test was generated) which the system "learned" to prepare for.

I get Griffe's point, but you would not see a divergence in relative positions between the hispanic/black populations, you would expect to see both "improve" to a similar degree, but thats not the case.

buwaya said...

"Those seem to imply that the smarter whites are leaving CA. "

If thats the reason then the smarter blacks must be leaving too, and Asians. Maybe not quite as many. I don't think thats such a good explanation.

You can check for this with a parallel test with a better temporal stability, like SATs.
White SAT participation is very consistent. SAT isn't good to check hispanic progress or lack thereof as participation has been increasing.

buwaya said...

Standard deviations were in the descriptive statistics documents issued with the API reports, but I can't find them on the CDE site anymore.

Bruce Hayden said...

Not sure what the issue on Due Process is. Everyone gets the amount of process due. The basic requirements are notice and hearing. Which, in the case of an illegal means that they ultimately get a hearing to prove that they shouldn't be deported back home. Burden can be on them, and they don't have any Constitutional right to roam our streets until then. So, (absent Executive Orders to the contrary), they have the right to be either immediately deported, or wait in custody until their hearing to prove that they shouldn't be deported. (I believe that the burden of proof is on the illegal, not the govt here). Nothing more is required by our 5th Amdt Due Process requirements.

mockturtle said...

Thank you, Bruce! Why is it so hard for the MSM to understand?

The Cracker Emcee said...

" We're talking about Trump, not Hillary"

Go figure.

I am beginning to wonder if the Democrats can buy the election while their candidate is effectively in hiding. A fascinating election year for certain.

Meade said...

It's now called "Consequence Delivery System." Come on, kids, catch up and learn the new lingo!

Todd said...

Freder Frederson said...
we have this catch and release bullcrap where the criminals are given a revolving door in and out of the jail, in and out of the system.

You do realize we have the highest incarceration rate in the world. Whatever the flaws of the criminal justice system, it is certainly not that we are locking up too few people.

9/1/16, 2:56 PM


WOW, just wow.

Just an FYI (a) "we have the highest incarceration rate in the world" does not imply (b) "certainly not that we are locking up too few people". We "may" be locking up too many people and/or locking up the wrong groups/types of people but the "fact" of (a) does not imply the "opinion" of (b) and we could in fact be locking up too few of the "right" people.

Todd said...

The Cracker Emcee said...
" We're talking about Trump, not Hillary"

Go figure.

I am beginning to wonder if the Democrats can buy the election while their candidate is effectively in hiding. A fascinating election year for certain.

9/1/16, 8:53 PM


I think you misspelled "steal". Cause that is sure as hell what they will attempt. Think Chicago politics writ large. They probably already have the printing presses warming up to generate absentee ballots as needed. I expect to hear media (lack of) surprise when it is reported how many voting districts go 100% for Hillary. I also expect stories about 110% turn out, like what happened when Obama won but country wide this time.