September 25, 2016

Flowers in the sewer — the misogyny of the disgust for Bill Clinton's lover.

On "Meet the Press" today, Chuck Todd was interviewing Hillary Clinton's campaign chairman, John Podesta:
CHUCK TODD: Is your goal of this debate is to get under his skin? Is that why you gave Mark Cuban a ticket right in the front row?

JOHN PODESTA: No, I think Mark Cuban is one of the business leaders who was never involved in partisan politics who's endorsed Hillary because he thinks she'll do better for the-- for the economy. I think that, you know, you saw his reaction, which is to do his favorite sport, which is to dive in the sewer and go for a swim.
Trump's reaction, you remember, was "Perhaps I will put Gennifer Flowers right alongside of him!" Now, I have a feminist problem with Trump's remark, one that I haven't seen anyone else notice, and that is the idea that he can "put" the woman where he likes. Flowers is a person, not an object — like a vase of flowers — but Flowers has already responded positively to the notion of getting placed in front of Hillary.*

So let me move on to the feminist problem I have with what Podesta said. He says the name, Mark Cuban, and vaunts him as a business leader who is above politics, but he won't say the name of the woman and he speaks of her as a creature of the sewer.

Todd pushes him: "You said-- you referred to diving into the sewer, so you believe that inviting Gennifer Flowers is diving into the sewer?" And Podesta has the smarts to resist further disrespecting the woman. But later, there's a panel, and one of the participants is Stephanie Cutter (who was Obama's deputy campaign manager in 2012 and who helped John Kerry prepare for debates in 2004). Todd asks her about "the idea of gamesmanship, which is the Clinton Campaign deciding to put Mark Cuban in the front row," and the response had me shouting at the TV:
STEPHANIE CUTTER: ... What Clinton and Trump are doing are trying to throw each other off their game. The difference is Hillary Clinton is doing it with a legitimate businessman, also, a celebrity. And as John Podesta put it earlier on your show, Trump is just jumping right down in the sewer and swimming in it by inviting Gennifer Flowers.
The man is "legitimate," and the woman is a "sewer."

Chuck Todd turned to another panelist, Steve Schmidt (a senior adviser to John McCain in 2008).
STEVE SCHMIDT: [The tactic of inviting Cuban] was clearly designed to provoke Donald Trump and it provoked Donald Trump, it provoked Donald Trump into going down the Gennifer Flowers rabbit hole....
The Gennifer Flowers rabbit hole?! Don't call a woman a "hole." Don't speak of a human being as a lower animal, a rodent. Whatever these people want to say about Trump, they should say it about Trump, but they instinctively jumped to express disgust toward the woman — who's really just a bystander to the pre-debate mind-games. Is this misogyny? The argument that it is not depends on the idea that the disgust is with sexuality — what happens when the man and the woman — Bill and Gennifer — get together and not with the woman herself. But the instinct — in both Podesta and Cutter — was to take the man out of the picture. Bill, like Mark Cuban, is legitimate. That horrible woman over there should be treated as a nonentity — down in a hole, there in the excrement, a rodent, a filthy pest. Anyone who would name her or treat her with equal dignity has himself fallen down into the sewer with her — "swimming in it," swimming in shit.

Being on the side of the female candidate does not absolve you of misogyny. It blinds you to it. 
_____________________________

* The full tweet is: "If dopey Mark Cuban of failed Benefactor fame wants to sit in the front row, perhaps I will put Gennifer Flowers right alongside of him!" You can see that Cuban's autonomy is respected in the word "wants." What does Cuban want to do? By contrast, Flowers can be put where Trump wants.

241 comments:

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Jon Ericson said...

Such a smart-ass, and yet so dumb.

walter said...

(dynasty aborted)

Jon Ericson said...

I like this whiffing. Let's me know they need a good introduction to reality.

Sprezzatura said...

"Get real, Jelly. 41 watched his son go down under a Trump IED."

IMHO, that requires thinking that 41 is a small, vindictive man who is not focused on the well being of his country. I don't see that. I see an American hero who is putting personal feelings (i.e. WJC disapproval) aside to protect his nation, as has been his lifelong experience.

Gahrie said...

He's allowed to have an opinion, FFS.

Yeah...but not those Kochs or Waltons...fuck them./s

Gahrie said...

In 92, I could not believe that sleazy Bubba beat 41.

He only did so because of Perot. Both times Clinton got less than 50% of the vote, but won anyway because of Perot.

This was actually the strategy/hope of the never Trumpers, but no one with a chance was willing to jump on the grenade.

Jon Ericson said...

What a suck-up!
Whiff away, peanut, whiff away.

Michael K said...

what more empowering to the victims of a sexual oppressor like Bill Clinton or his asexual abettor wife Hillary Clinton than to "put" them together in the same room on camera live?

I agree. Paula Jones has now announced she wants to accompany Flowers to the debate.

Who is to say no ?

walter said...

Hmm..can't help but suspect Jelly is revising his impression of 41 for expediency.
But ya know..just imagine your kid (reportedly thought to be the prez forerunner to GW) is running for 3rd slot in Bush dynasty and he gets flame thrown by Trump, a political outsider.
Yeahhh..you would bet he has a dispassionate view on all this.....sure...

Jon Ericson said...

For Brutus is an honorable man;
So are they all, all honorable men, —

Lewis Wetzel said...

Blogger PBandJ_Ombudsman said...
Why does Walter want to ruin the ending? Now if her book sales don't pickup we all know who is to blame.

9/25/16, 11:35 PM


Yet, by Bill Clinton's own admission, Gennifer Flowers told the truth about their affair, and, again by Clinton's admission, he was the liar.
Surprised, PB&J? What kind of psycho are you voting to put back in the White House?

Sprezzatura said...

"Surprised, PB&J? What kind of psycho are you voting to put back in the White House?"

a) This statement makes an assumption which I've never stated.

b) Maybe Terry should share this pshchopathy diagnosis w/ Bush 41, who is an HRC voter, to see if this breaking news is unknown to him.

Jon Ericson said...

Flowers in the sewer?
Shadows in the rain.

Sod off.

Lewis Wetzel said...

I suppose that the Clinton's defeated the pro-impeachment forces of the late 90s by making people believe that all politicians lie, and the Clintons were no worse than Newt Gingrich or Henry Hyde.
But now, after a decade and a half of the Clinton Global Initiative pay-for-play schemes, we know that is not true. The Clintons are sui generis. There are no politicians who lie so easily, so expertly and with so much support from people who (probably) believe that they themselves may be cynical, but are basically honest. I don't suppose these Hillary supporters believe anymore that they are special, that the Clintons will lie to the people they don't like, but not to them. I think that they believe that Hillary was no more sincere when she told people that the Iraq War was justified then when she told people that the Iraq War was not justified. They think that they have the Clintons' and their lies figured out.
The closest parallel is people who are close to drug addicts. They believe that they, alone in the world, are more important to the addict than the drug, that the addict needs them more than the addict needs the drug. They believe that they are special.
These people always have a rude awakening.
If Bill Clinton had had the decency to resign in 1998, we would not see a triumph of the right wing (though Clinton convinced his fools that this was what would happen).
Gore would have become president. Gore would probably have defeated G.W. Bush easily in 2000, and this means, to Democrats, no 9/11, no GWT, no Guantanamo, no invasion of Iraq, no financial crisis in 2008.
Look what you've already given up so Bill Clinton could get a blow job, you idiots. Double down. Go ahead. You are using them, they aren't using you, right?

Lewis Wetzel said...

"b) Maybe Terry should share this pshchopathy diagnosis w/ Bush 41, who is an HRC voter,"
You seem to have me confused with a Republican, PB &J. Or someone who gives a shit who Bush 41 votes for.
Anyhow, you might want to check your sources on that info, PB&J. It seems to come from Hillary supporters, not GHW Bush himself, or his people.
The Clintons always find stooges to spread their lies for them. At some point the stooges have to take responsibility, don't they? Renounce their right to vote or their citizenship, Maybe? Confess to the world that they are too stupid to take an active role in public affairs?

Jon Ericson said...

Damn. I wish I could string words and sentences together like Terry.

Until that happens, I remain a man of few words.

jg said...

I assume Althouse is trolling.

Jon Ericson said...

It worked.

Jon Ericson said...

Riders on the storm
Flowers in the sewer.

tim in vermont said...

Maybe Terry should share this pshchopathy diagnosis w/ Bush 41, who is an HRC voter, to see if this breaking news is unknown to him.

Yes, it is well understood that Hillary has the neocon vote locked up.

damikesc said...

Oh, and what a nightmare that would be. As everyone knows, the minute the White House veers from being an extramarital blowjob-free-zone the Russians will detonate it. There are actually signs around the premises to this effect and plastic chain-linked posts to remind the careless.

I don't disagree.

But I don't pretend to subscribe to any aspect of feminism.

Bill does.

He should be required to live up to his own professed ideals.

If any Christian who does something bad is a hypocrite, why is a raping feminist not?

Bill's old flings and rape victims are a reminder of that. Jennifer Flowers was one of the consensual affairs, right? Whatever - she is a reminder that the Clintons bring the sleaze factor.

Also a reminder of their fondness for trying to condone perjury and for lying and deceiving the public.

Now Steve Schmidt: he's just a fucking asshole. He wasted all of Jeb's $ going after Trump and Jeb looked like an idiot in this campaign no matter how "smart" and "issue savvy" he was. And the MSM brings Schmidt on to be a fountain of knowledge. ONLY the Dems love this guy.

He also blames, if memory serves, the abysmal McCain campaign on the only bright part of it, Palin. Progressives cannot ever claim to be "feminist" until they come to grips with their treatment of her and her family.

Mark Cuban is a brilliant businessman, and well qualified to opine on and pick his favored candidate, Monica Lewinsky's ex-boyfriend's wife, Communist Party candidate for president and corrupt alcoholic enabler of her sexual predator husband. And everyone else who supports her is also brilliant and smart and the right type of person worthy of having an opinion.

Yeah, I've noticed nobody has called Cuban what he is: A dot-com bubble billionaire. He just cashed out when the getting was good.

Assuming it was consenting and knowingly..what sort of character reference is Flowers?

Bill did spend years denying he ever did anything with her. Then a recording came out where he tries to get her to lie.

There's that.

damikesc said...

If 41 is supporting HRC, how can y'all fool yourselves into thinking this stuff is going to keep folks from voting for HRC?

Bush 41 allegedly supporting Hillary is why Trump exists in the first place. I have little doubt he'd be annoyed that his anointed son for obliterated so easily. Anybody who hires Murphy or Schmidt is already disqualified from my vote.

IMHO, that requires thinking that 41 is a small, vindictive man who is not focused on the well being of his country.

You seem to think I'm concerned about what a Democrat imbecile says a 92 year old man is going to do. I'm trying to think of things that I care about less than "What is a Democrat saying that the man who ran one of the lamest campaigns for President by a person not named McCain will do?"

He's an old man who was never conservative and had any power because an infinitely better politician made the mistake of naming him VP instead of Jack Kemp. Reagan's mistake left us with Bushes.

Yes, it is well understood that Hillary has the neocon vote locked up.

And the days of their counsel being unwanted has apparently ended. Wars for all, baby!

Birkel said...

We are reminded every four years that this Republican candidate is "literally Hitler" and not as good as the last Republican candidate.

PB&J is making the argument, by going back six elections, that George H.W. Bush is therefore a "literal saint". And how could anybody ignore a saint?

If only Reagan had selected Kemp as a running mate!

Rusty said...

Rhythm and Balls said...
Well PBJ, there's just one thing I hate even worse than speech codes and the academic bureaucrats who push them: The cockamamie pseudo-intellectual theories that agitate for them.

It is truly a sign that there is a glut in our post-secondary "education" bubble. Feelings-based (social) theories in search of an empiric, objectively observed reality to back them up.

Utter fucking rubbish.

C'mon. What did you do to the real ritmo?



PBandJ_Ombudsman said...
I have a challenge for any Althouse acolyte who's up to it: Find, and link to, an Althouse post that matches the best of R&B in this thread for wit, incisiveness and command of words.

I have a challenge for you.
Learn how to use the archive feature.

CStanley said...

I agree with Althouse's take on Trump's tweet and I don't think it even requires a parsing of the language. Just the idea that he threw this out in the public domain implies that he was using Flowers as a stand in for Bill's skankiness instead of treating her as a human being. I laughed when I first heard his tweet, but then when she responded I realized Trump's team was probably furiously backpedalling because they didn't actually want the real live person Gennifer Flowers involved.

It's kind of ironic that Trump's objectification of Flowers turned out to be consensual though. I don't mean to belittle her but some women never seem to get that you don't get respect for saying "yes" to every man who asks.

Bob Ellison said...

I loved "Flowers in the Sewer" when Dolly Parton and that bearded guy sang it. Oh, yeah, Kenny Rogers. That was what they were.

Henry said...

What I don't understand is why a televised debate has an audience to which big names can finagle a ticket. The invitation to Flowers is ludicrous. The defense of Cuban's inclusion is also ludicrous. Who cares about how much money Mark Cuban makes. The audience for the debate is the television audience.

Matt Sablan said...

"I laughed when I first heard his tweet, but then when she responded I realized Trump's team was probably furiously backpedalling because they didn't actually want the real live person Gennifer Flowers involved."

--> Then you're probably wrong. Trump's campaign had probably arranged it before he made his tweet.

DougWeber said...

I can understand the feminist outrage, but one has to ask oneself, if it were a man, how would Trump have phrased it differently and kept the same punch. My guess the phrasing is the same.

n.n said...

That's one small step out of the twilight zone. One giant leap for women.

The female chauvinists and their male counterparts are on trial.

Matt Sablan said...

Sidenote: I'm going to be watching tonight's debate because, well, if I'm going to be unhappy, might as well have a reason.

MagicalPat said...

Two thoughts...


1) It was an awful nice gesture of Trump to bring Hillary Flowers for the debate.

2) No one was more excited about having a Cuban present than Bill Clinton. Now he just needs an intern.

Laslo Spatula said...

"Tags:...excrement, feminism..."

Interesting abutting of Tags on this one.

Alphabetical order does not play fair sometimes.


I am The Replacement Laslo.

Rick said...

Is this misogyny?

Whether misogyny exists or not it is not the primary motivator. The motivator is that criticisms of left wing candidates by the right are presumptively illegitimate while all criticisms of the right are by definition legitimate.

CStanley said...

@Matthew Sabian: http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/25/politics/presidential-debate-preview-2016/

Rusty said...

Mary Beth said...
PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

I have a challenge for any Althouse acolyte who's up to it: Find, and link to, an Althouse post that matches the best of R&B in this thread for wit, incisiveness and command of words.

9/25/16, 9:53 PM

Matches? No, there's nothing on R&B's level here. Try tumblr.


Nah. When he hasn't been in the bong water he's razor sharp. Which is why I don't poke him with a stick when he goes on about something he knows something about.

Rick said...

Terry said...
Gore would have become president. Gore would probably have defeated G.W. Bush easily in 2000, and this means, to Democrats, no 9/11, no GWT, no Guantanamo, no invasion of Iraq, no financial crisis in 2008.



Maybe, wrong, wrong, maybe, maybe, wrong. Do you think the rest of the world acts differently because Dems run America? This is Michael Moore (Don't attack New York, we didn't vote for Bush) level nonsense.

Jupiter said...

rhhardin said...
"Cuban might mean penis to Flowers's rabbit hole."

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

walter said...

"It's kind of ironic that Trump's objectification of Flowers turned out to be consensual though."

Analysis determined to prevent actual equality.

mikeski said...

Much ado about nothing.

Yes, Trump may "put" whoever he wants in those seats. As may Clinton. They have the tickets; they're in command. They get to do the putting. The people being put, male or female, only have the choice to go along with being put, or to opt out and not attend.

Is it wrong when someone plans a wedding dinner, and "puts" the Joneses next to the Smiths? Is it wrong when I'm making out the lineup for the company softball game, and I "put" Kevin in the clean-up spot?

And one can use the word "hole" in the same sentence as a woman's name, without thinking of the woman as a hole, Dr. Freud notwithstanding. If there's anything wrong with "rabbit hole," it's the idea that the real meaning is "this argument is nonsensical; I don't need to consider it or rebut it." That he finds Flowers not worthy of any of his time.

(Oopsie, I just used the syllable "but" when talking about holes and women. Freud was right!)

The Japanese word for "hole" is "ana".

"An" is a rough draft; a suggestion; something not well-thought-out.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Why thank you, Rusty. I appreciate that.

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