September 21, 2016

"Did she get scared? Was she choking? What happened? People that do that — maybe they can't be doing what they're doing."

Said Trump, commenting on the shooting, in Tulsa, of a black man by a white female police officer.

And I can't help suspecting that he's trying to deliver a subliminal message about Hillary: Maybe the woman is not up to the extreme stress of the job.

103 comments:

AlbertAnonymous said...

That's really reaching, Professor.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

So the police acted stupidly?

Bruce Hayden said...

So, he questions the officer involved when she appears to have shot the decedent without good provocation. Good for him. On the flip side, the (Soros funded) BLM crowd rioted after Keith Scott was shot advancing on police in NC with a gun in his hands. Also caught by a police video. It is important to distinguish between justified and unjustified police shootings. The Dems supporting BLM (including both Crooked Hillary and Obama) ignore this distinction, giving esp young black thugs license to violently attack the police.

Tommy Duncan said...

Stretching...

eric said...

I wish people would learn something as simple as, "I'm happy to wait for all the facts."

gspencer said...

AA has not place anywhere.

Psst, tell Hillary.

YoungHegelian said...

@Bruce H.

The Dems supporting BLM (including both Crooked Hillary and Obama) ignore this distinction, giving esp young black thugs license to violently attack the police.

Or, as NPR so quaintly put it this morning "the demonstration turned violent". To which I responded to an unlistening radio "That's called a riot, bee-yatch!".

Who says listening to radio's gotta be a passive experience?

Dave in Tucson said...

It's funny with all the "dog whistles" on the right - why does it seem like it's always the left that hears them?

On a related note, I will note again projection is a real thing.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Trump tends to size up a situation quickly and candidly react as he thinks is right. In this case as in others he seems to be right on. I also think his remarks were measured. That's exactly what I thought in the Tamir Rice case, that guy probably didn't mean any harm, but he probably shouldn't be a cop anymore.

There is an analogy to Hillary in this case? Well, if the shoe fits, or the pantsuit, the Ming the Merciless collar, the fresnel lens, or the hidden earpiece, wear it!

jdniner said...

The police are operating by extreme safety rules created by progressive politicians. They need to travel in pairs. One experienced officer in the pair. And rotate. In this case I think proper gun safety and proper control of the situation failed. I'm guessing a finger was on a trigger when it shouldn't be. If that is the case the officer should fess up. There was zero reason to pull a trigger here. The most basic gun safety standards were violate.

The police need to learn to not point their weapon until they see an actual gun drawn. They are trying to control too many innocent situations by force where just talking would work.

Cops are either a Griffith or a Fife.

jdniner said...

One of the easiest ways to reduce blacks being killed is to have less black crime. But that community where the crime is is not convinced that blacklivesmatter.

AlbertAnonymous said...

So the "conversation" I'm told that people want to have... Will it include "when encountering a police officer, calmly comply with the officer's requests/orders, and DO NOT exit your vehicle with a weapon in your hand, DO NOT ignore the officer and return to/reach into your vehicle....

Some of these episodes are so, sadly and obviously, avoidable by the citizens.

rhhardin said...

Hillary already has that history, in Benghazi.

rhhardin said...

Affirmative action means you let them have the job anyway.

Qualifications is so patriarchy.

rhhardin said...

If it weren't for police shootings, the poor would have no flat screen TVs.

William said...

Not everyone behaves with Dirty Harry coolness in conditions of extreme stress. It sure looks like this woman made the wrong call. Maybe Trump will gain some street cred in the black community for calling her out. The Charlotte shooting, on the other hand, seems justified. Hillary would gain some street cred among the deplorables if she came to the defense of the black police officer who is being unfairly maligned.

Birches said...

And yet they are rioting in Charlotte...

MaxedOutMama said...

Sometimes a banana is just a banana.

I think Trump's comment was meant to address the automatic assumption that racism is the cause. Black officers are also shooting people they probably shouldn't, so Trump's comment is reasonable.

D. said...

These days, I don't get upset by the police shooting people who park their vehicles
in the middle of the street and act like they are drugged. Also bring back water cannons to control massed idiocy. For the children of course.

D. said...

>Black officers are also shooting people they probably shouldn't,<

the obama stupid is thick in the air.

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

Guess the media does not feel the Charlotte riots will help Hillary. Nothing like the coverage of Ferguson, when the media went out of their way to incite.

FullMoon said...

And in Charlolette, the natural reaction of community is to lie about the circumstances. Guy reaching for "Book", is filmed holding gun.
ALthough, reports say undercover cop? A black guy with gun(undercover cop) may get a pushback from ghetto resident who thinks he is a gangster.

bmk50211 said...

I don't understand after shooting the suspect, that they did not clear the suspect of any weapons, call for a bus and begin first aid rather than waiting for him to bleed out.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Virgil Hilts said...

I think Ann is spot on (which she is >95% of the time).
It also (ala Scott Adams) makes you imagine both candidates in that cop's shoes - who would have been better at managing this type of a tense situation?
Stumbling HC hanging well back with Huma supporting her by the arm and Sidney Blumenthal sending her advice by texts as to what the most politically expedient play might be, or Trump walking up to the guy and saying heh, you know what let's everyone calm down and work this thing out. What the hell is the problem?

David Begley said...

Regular riots in America. A weekly slaughter in Chicago. Terrorist attacks in America. The Mideast in flames.

Nice job, Obama.

Unknown said...

I expect he will be called sexist for it soon.

Rt1 Rebel said...

Cacimbo said:

Guess the media does not feel the Charlotte riots will help Hillary. Nothing like the coverage of Ferguson, when the media went out of their way to incite.

Or they realized that they've created a juggernaut that cannot be controlled. Now that I think about it again, we're both correct.

Also, Hannity has pushed his scheduled Trump Town Hall broadcast until tomorrow night, Charlotte coverage has taken precedent on FOX.

bigkat said...

He may be healing the planet- above my pay grade to judge, but I do know the one we were waiting for ,uttered that now Harvard Law Review caliber dazzling succinct summation "the police acted stupidly" which will go down in history as the seminal moment in the downward spiral of race relations in this country. He wanted to be transformational and oh brother is he leaving his mark. OUCH

traditionalguy said...

DT has mastered the art of staying superficial which is the same level as everyone who saw the video. That was the perfect reaction: a person in authority representing us all did not have the calm nerves needed to face a threat with good judgement. It really is all about the temperament issue. Some have it and some don't.

That is exactly what has surprised Trump the most. He is the calmest and most perceptive person in a crisis that he has ever met.

Rudyard Kipling's man, that can keep his head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you... That is Trump.

traditionalguy said...

No one doubts that a trained woman can do chaos of combat with a cool head as well as any man.

Hillary's problem is extreme bad judgement from a life spent hiding everything and necessary lying to cover it up, compounded by serious brain memory deficit and a lack of enough speed to make a cogent decision when one is needed.

DanTheMan said...

>> Trump tends to size up a situation quickly and candidly react as he thinks is right. In this case as in others he seems to be right on.

Being right first is a competitive advantage in business. Unlike politics, where the goal is often to avoid being wrong.

Bob Boyd said...

"Did she get scared? Was she choking? What happened? People that do that — maybe they can't be doing what they're doing."

I wonder what subliminal message Anthony Weiner couldn't help but suspect.

Paul said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kate said...

1) Citizens getting shot by police is upsetting.
2) Trump was totally using the officer's sex as a Hillary shot. Why not?
3) Don't do stupid shit when police tell you to raise your hands and hold still.
4) If BLM rioters use these events to murder other citizens -- as just happened in Charlotte -- the hammer needs to come down, and I no longer care about #1.

Comanche Voter said...

The Hildebeest does not get scared. She scares other people. She also incites fear and loathing, but that's another story.

Do not try to duke it out with the legendary lying Dragon Lady.

Paul said...

Obama's world, where Muslim terrorist plant bombs on the streets, black protestors burn and loot, illegals flow over the border, jobs exported abroad, and basket case countries get nukes with billion dollar gifts from this Administration.

Yes, the best of Obama's world!

Hence Trump. He will win by a landslide.

David Begley said...

Paul

Today Hillary said she is surprised she isn't up by 50 points. Hard to believe she will get more than 30 percent.

David Begley said...

Obama's mama was a real child of the 60's. Her son - who was born in Hawaii - has brought the 60's back.

SAD. Stanley Ann Dunham.

Big Mike said...

And I can't help suspecting that he's trying to deliver a subliminal message about Hillary: Maybe the woman is not up to the extreme stress of the job.

And I think you're over-analyzing the situation. Now that you're retiring you're going have to learn not to try to parse deep meaning from commonsense observations.

David said...

Oh who knows. But given what she and her supporters have said about him, she richly deserves a few insults.

I think the main problem is that H. has poor judgment. She may or may not be super smart, as some of her supporters seem to believe. She's likely smart enough to be president. It does not take a genius. But judgment and smarts are very different things, and H. demonstrates again and again that her judgment is often very poor.

holdfast said...

There is a school of thought that female police officers might be quicker to resort to deadly force, because, generally being smaller and weaker, they are less able to deploy old-fashioned, non-lethal physical force. The proliferation of tasers and pepper-spray has probably changed that equation at least somewhat.

All that said, a burly 6'4" dude with a deep voice is more likely to get quick compliance than a 5'7" man or woman. That's just natural instinct.

Laslo Spatula said...

"Did she get scared? Was she choking? What happened?"

The standard questions when a woman can't quite Deep Throat.

THere might also be gagging.

I am The Replacement Laslo.

JCC said...

@ FullMoon -

Supposedly the cop in NC was in plainclothes but wearing a vest marked front and back with "Police" or something similar. There were also supposedly 2 uniformed cops on the scene.

However, just a thought: when only one officer fires a weapon but there were multiple cops on the scene, it may mean the one cop was quick on the trigger (or it may just mean the other cops couldn't see or didn't have a clear shot). So Trump may have a sense of the Tulsa shooting, since who among us dosen't suspect the female officer overreacted, or at least, shot when the other officers didn't think to do so.

The NC shooting looks like it will turn out to be legitimate, since the chief says they have video of the entire incident.

When a Presidential candidate (Hillary) validates your sense of victimhood, looting a store and doing some early Christmas shopping is an easy step.

Leaving the shooting victim laying in the roadway without checking or administering first aid did look pretty bad. I didn't get that at all.

rcocean said...

The male cop had already tasered him. The problem with women cops is they lack the muscle to subdue big male crooks. So, they're left with either two options - let the bad guy do what he wants or threaten with a gun/shoot him.

Tasers were supposed to be the in-between option, but obviously haven't worked as planned.

Oh, you ask what about the small male policeman? Well there don't seem to be many of those, since no one gets upset if they don't get hired, while the "sisters" get all worked up if one of their girlfriends don't get hired.

Of course, in the old days, the big cops used their batons, but then women got all hysterical over Rodney King, so now its either shoot them or wrestle them.

rcocean said...

Its not that ALL women are hysterical ninnies when it comes to public policy, its just that the percent is much higher than it is with men.

Giving them the vote, was a mistake. Just like giving ALL Men the vote was a mistake.

traditionalguy said...

Trump's point was clear. It was that either a woman or a man who cannot think cooly how to react other than to shoot to kill a BIG MAN that they are ordering around who does not comply quickly but wanders about, is not qualified to be a police officer. They must be fired.

That suggests intense training of officers until they have confidence in their ability to disable a BIG MAN by wrestling moves or Tazers is a necessary qualification.

If you say many are afraid, then we need to pay more to train and retain the ones who are not afraid.

JCC said...

@ Holdfast -

In 1973, the DOJ started withholding Federal aid and monies from police departments that maintained minimum height and weight requirements, since these tended to select for males and exclude females.

Over time, many (most?) police departments have gotten away from teaching self-defense, like boxing or one of the martial arts, because they fear civil lawsuits. So, you get lots of cops who rely on pepper spray or shocking devices - nonlethal stuff - instead of being able to defend themselves, due to either size and/or ignorance. Without a doubt, some of the more questionable shootings result from these policies. But most police shootings are legally justified, even if sometimes demonstrative of iffy judgement.

By the way, there is an actual police theory of intervention with the potentally violent, called "verbal judo." Which is an exercise in political correctness, of course, as it emphasizes talking people down without using any force. Sure. What could go wrong?

Terry said...

Below you can read about the violent past of the black man the police shot and killed in Charlotte.

Previous charges

A public records search shows that Scott was convicted in April 2004 of a misdemeanor assault with a deadly weapon charge in Mecklenburg County. Other charges stemming from that date were dismissed: felony assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill, and misdemeanors assault on a child under 12, assault on a female and communicating threats.

In April 2015 in Gaston County Court, Scott was found guilty of driving while intoxicated.

In 1992, Scott was charged in Charleston County, S.C., with ​several different crimes on different dates, including carrying ​a concealed weapon​ (not a gun), simple assault and contributing to ​the delinquency of a minor. ​He pleaded guilty to ​all charges.

Scott also was charged with aggravated assault in 1992​ and assault with intent to kill in 1995. Both charges were reduced, but the disposition of the case​s​ is unclear.

According to Bexar County, Texas, records, Scott was sentenced in March 2005 to 15 months in a state jail for evading arrest. In July of that year, records show, he was sentenced to seven years in prison on a conviction of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. A Texas Department of Criminal Justice spokesman said Scott completed his sentence and was released from prison in 2011.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article103175292.html

JCC said...

@ Terry -

Which means, by the way, that Scott could not legally possess a firearm, given the felony conviction in Texas. But I'm guessing we won't be hearing much about that.

He could legally possess the book though, the one police say wasn't in the car.

coupe said...

"And I can't help suspecting..."

what a felicate reasoning is quaffed by women from mere analog noise...

Twitter is the 21st Century ink blot test.

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

@ JCC I don't know about the Federal money, but in NYC the height requirements were dropped because of lawsuits by asians and hispanic males who on average were much shorter than whites/blacks.

Rt1 Rebel said...

Shit's getting real in Charlotte. And all of the sudden, Hillary needs a new training regime for Monday.

sane_voter said...

It is crazy that the NC shooting is causing this level of angst given the decedent had a gun and it is on video. Also, there has to be better handling of protesting going forward so this level of lawlessness is nipped in the bud.

1) Curfews as the bad stuff happens after dark.
2) Arrests and convictions of violent protesters.
3) Overpowering force and mass arrests of protesters blocking main thoroughfares.
4) RICO prosecutions of leaders that organize these violent orgies of mayhem. There are obviously groups driving this and many of these "protesters" arrive from out of town and are being organized and probably bankrolled to do this. BLM is the front group but likely is being funded by Soros or other far left progressives.

Rt1 Rebel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Terry said...

I've noticed that liberal news outlets (like the NY Times) tend to identify the race of a police officer who has shot a Black man only when the officer is a white male.

Char Char Binks said...

The critique transfers easily and quickly to Hillary, but it's off base, at least as far as the cop goes, although it may be brilliant as a persuasion technique. The man shot was acting like a lunatic and was reaching into his car against police orders. Maybe he's going to pull out Skittles and ice tea, maybe he's going to pull out a gun -- quick, decide NOW!.

AA is probably right; Trump is trying to transfer people's doubt over the competence and judgment of the female police officer to the female presidential candidate. He's also sucking up to #blackshitsplatters, and sucking hard, but they won't vote for him anyway.

Trump also once tweeted this about George Zimmerman:

"@GeorgeZimmerman doesn't look injured to me. Even if he's in a fight, does he have to use a gun--and why shoot to kill? He should have stayed in his car like he was told and this terrible tragedy would never have happened."

Trump is no conservative, and he doesn't believe in the right to self defense. He can suck up to blacks all he wants, but he's already been painted as one of the Deplorables by the good people, so it doesn't matter.

Rt1 Rebel said...

I had no idea that Charlotte was this passionate about unisex bathrooms.

sane_voter said...

Looks like the NC Gov is about to drop the hammer. Good for him and the people of NC.

holdfast said...

For some reason this thread reminds me of Eminem's "Lose Yourself" (one his best, IMHO):

Look
If you had
One shot
Or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted
In one moment
Would you capture it
Or just let it slip?

Yo
His palms are sweaty, knees weak, arms are heavy
There's vomit on his sweater already, mom's spaghetti
He's nervous, but on the surface he looks calm and ready
To drop bombs, but he keeps on forgettin'
What he wrote down, the whole crowd goes so loud
He opens his mouth, but the words won't come out
He's chokin', how, everybody's jokin' now
The clocks run out, times up, over, blaow!
Snap back to reality, oh there goes gravity
Oh, there goes Rabbit, he choked
He's so mad, but he won't give up that easy? No
He won't have it, he knows his whole back city's ropes
It don't matter, he's dope, he knows that, but he's broke
He's so stacked that he knows, when he goes back to his mobile home, that's when its
Back to the lab again yo, this whole rhapsody
He better go capture this moment and hope it don't pass him

PackerBronco said...

"And I can't help suspecting ..."

Try professor. Just try.

Bad Lieutenant said...

OK Char, which video have you seen. Link?

Bad Lieutenant said...

I would rather defend the police as a rule, but it looks like the shooter made a mistake. Maybe she was startled by the Taser sound. Maybe she had her finger on the trigger and jerked at the noise. There was some lapse before the "Shots fired!"

Not an easy job.

Not everyone can do it.

The front window looked closed. Does anyone know about the rear window?

It's regrettable that no one tried to assist the downed suspect. Is that usual and proper? They all seemed to stand around and look at each other.

It's regrettable if the suspect did not comply with orders, but that in itself is not a capital offense, in theory.

Good shooting? A one shot stop and kill. Is ammo just that much better these days? To what extent was she aiming? Again, pity he couldn't be saved.

If he had seemed a real threat, wouldn't they have controlled the body, searched him, cuffed him?

I myself am really bad at analyzing imagery.

I have no idea why instead of unrest over this, they rioted, lethally, in North Carolina over what appears to be a perfectly righteous shoot.

William said...

In support of the Althouse observation, please note that Trump used the choke expression to describe the female officer's reaction. Choking is another way to describe Hillary's coughing spasms. Trump might be more skillful with words than people give him credit for.

Baronger said...

Police have a difficult and dangerous job and I support them. However the culture and tactics need reform. They are creatin hostility.

1. Police culture needs to change.
2. Unions need to go as they are protecting bad apples.
3. Police need stringent state level certification and training. Recertification yearly.
4. Any swat level action needs to be authorized by the governor. Should be rare.
5. Internal affairs handed over to state level administration that's elected
6. All officers need to be in pairs.
7. No more using deadly weapons t force compliance.
8 Guns only drawn if deadly is needed
9. Cameras on guns, on cars and on officers. No assaults on people filming
10. Only one officer can speak to a person at a time.
11. Officers have to give people time to respond and comply.
12. higher standards for the charge of resistance and non compliance
13. End the us vs them mentality.
14. Proper training in Judo and take down techniques and rarely used.

Baronger said...

Police have a difficult and dangerous job and I support them. However the culture and tactics need reform. They are creatin hostility.

1. Police culture needs to change.
2. Unions need to go as they are protecting bad apples.
3. Police need stringent state level certification and training. Recertification yearly.
4. Any swat level action needs to be authorized by the governor. Should be rare.
5. Internal affairs handed over to state level administration that's elected
6. All officers need to be in pairs.
7. No more using deadly weapons t force compliance.
8 Guns only drawn if deadly is needed
9. Cameras on guns, on cars and on officers. No assaults on people filming
10. Only one officer can speak to a person at a time.
11. Officers have to give people time to respond and comply.
12. higher standards for the charge of resistance and non compliance
13. End the us vs them mentality.
14. Proper training in Judo and take down techniques and rarely used.

Mid-Life Lawyer said...

Yes, Ann, I think you are right. And the reason so many men are voting for him is that Hillary is really our mother and we all hate our mothers. It's like Freud..........or something.

rcommal said...

15. De-escalation is more important than escalation.
16. Politics is a foul scaffold on which to build any thing, including any thing that includes any and every God-damned thing.

Just, and only, sayin', ... .

etc.

Bad Lieutenant said...

New nonlethals? Net guns? Dart guns? Sonic guns? Those blobby things from The Prisoner? Back to baton, tonfa, etc?

Of course it would be nice if people would listen to one.

Terry said...

If we are going to federalize the police forces of counties, cities and towns, let's start calling them 'soldiers' instead of 'police', okay? 'Cuz that is what they will be. Soldiers loyal to the feds, not local police forces hired by our communities and answerable to out communities.

Annie said...

Why does anyone at the national level need to comment on local matters? And why not say, 'No comment since the investigation is ongoing.'
And Hillary is out there vowing to speak to white people about racial police shootings. As if the Butcher of Benghazi has clue one about providing protection for anyone.

Mac McConnell said...

Respect the laws, the police and act like a civilized human being, Problem solved.

Being stupid is how to get killed, it's so easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1djqKjvltRI

Char Char Binks said...

Bad Lieutenant said...
OK Char, which video have you seen. Link?

Google it.

MayBee said...

I'm on board with rcommal, bad lieutenant, and Terry.

Side thought: It seems as though there is some movement going on where people are trying to grab the narrative the minute their loved one is shot. Philandro Castille's girlfriend Facebook Live'd her narrative as her boyfriend lay dying next to her (while she didn't actually talk to him or comfort him). The NC daughter grabbed Periscope and live streamed "the moment" she found out her father had been shot. What is that?
Also, the family immediately has a story. How would the NC "family" know their father was in the car reading a book? Were they their? Why are they treated by the media as witnesses? It's like the "hands up don't shoot" story. It was instant, it was a lie, and it spread like wildfire.

Where is this instant narrative coming from, and why do news organizations run with it?

Bruce Hayden said...

@Baronger
1. Yes - but probably no agreement how
2. Unions- No and Yes. We saw in the Baltimore prosecutions of the 6 officers involved somewhat in the death of Freddie Gray why police unions are valuable. They were political prosecutions, thanks to BLM, to appease the Black constituents of the husband of the state prosecutor. There was never enough probable cause to indict any of the officers, yet they were all facing life nag prison time. And, yes, their union paid for their legal defense.
3. Ok
4. SWAT - No. Governor is a political actor, and often cannot move quickly. SWAT is greatly overused, and operate under too lose constraints, but are invaluable in a number of high risk situations. If you have hostage situations, terrorism, mass murders, etc, SWAT is essential. They are also very useful in making arrests of highly probable suspects in very violent, esp. armed, felonies. It is when they are used for, example, arrests in non-violent felonies and misdemeanors that their use is problematic.
5. IA - need reformation, but elected state level is problematic. Maybe as a backup.
6. Pairs - not practical. One size fits all solution. Here in rural MT, in a county larger than Delaware, and voting population less than 10k, pairs would cut coverage in half, possibly turning a 15 minute response time into upwards of an hour.
7. Deadly weapons for compliance - again simplistic. Traffic stop no. Violent felony stop maybe yes. Depends on danger to community.
8. Deadly weapons drawn - again too simplistic. Properly done, presentation of deadly force is supposed to be part of the progression up to the use of deadly force. The problem is not the present ion, per se, because it is useful, but that it is overused, and shouldn't be used unless there is a real possibility that deadly force may be necessary.
9. Cameras - ultimately, will likely have them on most officers and vehicles, but that is taking time, esp the logistics. Gun cameras though are still quite problematic. Recoil in one problem. Another is that most police will almost never have to discharge their weapons at anyone during their entire careers.
10. One officer speaking - yes, and is policy in a lot of depts.

rhhardin said...

The media could fix the rioting by adopting the majority opinion that black people are obviously really, really stupid.

When rioting doesn't work anymore, they'll stop doing it.

At the moment it's a young black male obligation.

rhhardin said...

Talking heads discussion

What's the best way that police can deal with crowds of stupid people like these? Obviously pretending not to notice that they're stupid isn't working.

Bruce Hayden said...

11. Time to respond - as a general rule yes. But maybe not much time if they present a lethal threat.
12. Compliance and resistance - probably a higher std is justified, but non-compliance to legally justified orders should not be voluntary.
13. Us v Them - very unlikely that you can end this mentality, and much of it is environmental. It is not an issue here in rural MT, while it may be in big cities. Part of it probably could be overcome with a return to community policing and beats. The problem there is money - it would require more police, which many jurisdictions cannot afford. And really works best in dense urban environments.
14. Better training in non lethal apprehension - yes, but we then get into the female affirmative action problem. Judo, while maybe useful, is not the answer.
15. Deescalation - yes, but maybe simplistic.
16. Politics - yes, it is an issue. On the one hand, you had the above situation in Baltimore, where cops, running almost a textbook operation, at the behest of politicians, were tried by those very same politicians when someone died (likely due to his own actions). Ditto for the trial of George Zimmerman. But also, the non-arrest of Hillary Clinton, and the news anchor and staff who violated DC gun laws on the air.

I would maybe add these:
17. Limitation on plea bargaining where DAs can stack charges that it they are unlikely to win individually, but win instead because the deal is a fraction of the stacked charges
18. Limitations on qualified immunity so that police and prosecutors are more readily liable if they arrest or prosecute people when they lack real probable cause. And, more readily providing attorney's fees in egregious situations.

Bob Ellison said...

This is the main video, right?

There's a helicopter video as well.

It looks terrible. Lots of cops, and after the guy is shot and collapses on his back, the cops sorta stroll around, doing nothing to help the guy.

Trump's comments and questions are appropriate.

tim in vermont said...

To be fair to Hillary, her doctors have been giving her a daily dose of rat poison (Coumandin) and it is probably toxic to shrews as well. So she is holding up pretty well.

tim in vermont said...

By the way, my theory as to why they give her the "old fashioned" blood thinner is that it is easily reversible. If she were on Eliquis, for example, and an assassin's bullet winged her, it would still be hell to stop the bleeding, a body shot of some kind that could be treated in a normal person would likely kill her.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Char, I saw two videos, aerial and dashcam. Somehow it other, I will presume coincidentally, neither showed anything discernible at the critical moment. Specifically, I saw no cause to shoot the man.

What did you see that makes you say, Righteous shoot? What is her defense? Eek-a-mouse?

BTW the optics would be fifty times better if any attempt at first aid was rendered, I would think. Nothing says callous, not to say I'm-glad-he's-dead, like watching a man die while you stand around. None of them appeared busy.

MayBee said...

Even if you think he was perhaps moving toward his front seat or an open(?) window to get a gun, why couldn't they approach him on the ground and see if he was ok? If he had a gun, ok, don't do that. But him having a gun in his hand isn't why they shot him, and he couldn't reach in the car window if he's already down on the ground.

bigkat said...

and in court nothing says tainting the crime scene with planted evidence and weapons like rendering aide to subject by racist cops

Hagar said...

There is a little more to it. The other officer at the scene fired his stun gun simultaneously with Officer Shelby, so it appears he thought he saw something too.

Chuck said...

Professor Althouse, I don't think that public officials should ever get away with subliminal meanings or messages.

If what you suggest is true, Trump should be grilled by the press in excruciating detail about what he meant.

If Clinton tried any subliminal messaging (I don't doubt that she may, I just can't think of an example offhand), she should get the exact same treatment.

MayBee said...

There is a little more to it. The other officer at the scene fired his stun gun simultaneously with Officer Shelby, so it appears he thought he saw something too.

Seeing something and firing your stun gun is a much lower bar, I would hope, than seeing something and firing your gun.

MayBee said...

Professor Althouse, I don't think that public officials should ever get away with subliminal meanings or messages.

This can't be serious.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Professor Althouse, I don't think that public officials should ever get away with subliminal meanings or messages.


Then you must think the Clintons are utter assholes, and hate and despise them. And Obama too.


If Clinton tried any subliminal messaging (I don't doubt that she may, I just can't think of an example offhand), she should get the exact same treatment.

BUT. SHE. WON'T.

What don't you get, Chuck? Of all things about you, I never suspected you were a naif.

Chuck said...

Trump is doing what the Black Lives Matter folks* are doing, which is presuming motives and intents before any investigation is completed. Goose, meat gander.


*And because I guess I need to do it these heady days, I have to extend any BLM criticism to Mrs. Clinton insofar as she shamelessly copies their talking points. And she does, and it is despicable.

coupe said...

The officer has given her side of the story. Bottom line, she said "I was never so scared in my life."

She was afraid she was going to die, and her self preservation subconscious mind took over her active one. The thing that police try to train out of recruits.

Bravery is one of those thing that you either have it, or you don't. People who are brave, don't have to act early on their subconscious. They can wait for the threat to go full tilt, and still retain great odds of survival.

Her state of mind was so fearful she thought the window was open, and he was reaching for a gun through it. When in actuality, the window was closed, and his blood splattered all over it. Yet, even hours later she said the window was open.

Hopefully they will find her a job at the armory or impound lot, if she insists on staying in public service.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Chuck said... I have to extend any BLM criticism to Mrs. Clinton ...
9/22/16, 9:28 AM

Curious: if I bothered to go back on Althouse, would I find you being the nagging conscience of Romney and McCain, Ryan and Palin, for any little thing they did which you did not quite like? How about Bush 43? 41? Dole? Reagan?

TLDR: Why do you pretend to be a Republican if you ceaselessly attack the Republican candidate, indecorously and with enthusiasm, and the Democratic candidate only as an afterthought?

Really TLDR: Why do you pretend to be a Republican?


n.n said...

Clinton has a hair-trigger. It's a chauvinist, not female thing.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Blogger n.n said...
Clinton has a hair-trigger. It's a chauvinist, not female thing.

9/22/16, 11:37 AM


Didn't stop him with the ladies, though.


Bad Lieutenant said...

What? Too soon?

(YSWIDT)

Chuck said...

I have taken a bit more time to look at the overhead video of the Tulsa shooting.

What occurs to me, simply, is that the suspect was out of his car, hands raised, and I expect that the police were ordering to the ground, or down in some fashion, or perhaps hands against the car; whatever.

And with guns drawn, the police continually ordered him to stop. But he kept backing up, to the point where he got back to his car, against orders, and then leaned into the car to reach for something. A very bad situation at that point.

I am not making any judgment about wrongdoing, or police protocols and practices. If the officer did wrong, and can be shown to have done something wrong, there should be consequences. If the officer can be shown beyond reasonable doubt to have committed a homicide, then let justice be done.

I've now heard Mrs. Clinton's audio statement on the subject. It is breathtakingly awful. It is channeled Black Lives Matter in every way. "Pandering" isn't adequate. It is hateful, hate-mongering.

Trump's statement was far better; not something that I like, particularly and not at all what I would have scripted for him, but not bad.

Now of course wholly apart from the actual case, Althouse likes the Trump tactic of making about "her" and "choking." It is a very clever interpretation indeed.

I feel bad for everybody involved, certainly, but I'd very much include the two female cops in my concerns. I hope they have supremely effective counsel. The whole country is judging them and I think they may be getting railroaded. Neither Hillary Clinton nor Donald Trump ought to be on that jury and maybe not any jury. They are both old enough to escape jury service based on age disability in many jurisdictions.

coupe said...

The only way the officer will stay out of jail, not be a convicted criminal, and not be sued for money, is if the autopsy report shows huge amounts of illicit drugs in the victim.

If I was on the jury, I wouldn't convict her, even though I believe she made a capital crime out of a traffic stop. She's an idiot, not a criminal. She shouldn't have a gun, or a baton, she should be working the evidence room or impound lot. Better if she got a job as a Burger King manager.

If the victim turns out to be clean, then she will do time. Although cops go to a special prison. She'll never serve time with your day to day murderers.

Bad Lieutenant said...

I expect that the police were ordering to the ground, or down in some fashion, or perhaps hands against the car; whatever.

Possibly all at once. Which, speaking of all allusions, is the kind of stimulus that disconcerts many, and appears to throw Hillary Clinton into seizures.

And with guns drawn, the police continually ordered him to stop. But he kept backing up,

Are you sure? Don't they usually have you assume the position against your car? Maybe Officer A said do X and Officer B said do Y. The victim, is that the right word, could have easily been confused, especially if intoxicated.

to the point where he got back to his car, against orders, and then leaned into the car to reach for something. A very bad situation at that point.

Did you see him reaching INTO the car? The car with the windows apparently shut? The car that no weapon was in fact found in? What would he reach for, a box of imaginary doughnuts to bribe them with?

The female officer (what two females??) said that she had never been so scared in her life. She had just finished drug orientation training and had probably seen films of PCP users doing superhuman feats. PCP is pretty much a license to kill/get out of jail free card for cops, and perhaps there is something to it.

But the first officer was satisfied to stun - not sure why, cameras obstructed - and stunning is less effective when you also shoot the victim. I saw no Hulk-like rage or violent behavior to induce an all out effort against Mr. Crutcher.

But I am very bad at video interpretation, and some people, happily for our military, are very good at it. And they were there and I wasn't. So maybe his visage changed to a berserker's, he roared, his muscles bulged, his clothes ripped, and suddenly he had to be stopped. If so, I hope it is accurately captured on body cams, if they had them.

My guess from 50,000 feet is that she panicked. I don't even say she intended to shoot him. I daresay her finger jerked of its own accord as by startle reflex. She only fired once - though she radioed "Shots fired!", that is probably SOP; alternately she mistook the Taser sound for a shot - so she was not looking to blast him.

If it happened that way in a shoot house I suppose they either retrain you, find you a job in the Property division, or invite you to look elsewhere for a career. Since in this case it took a life, the stakes are a little higher.

Chuck, Ann, or any lawyer (I'd like to hear from Chuck in this instance), please explain the gradations between innocent and 1D manslaughter, and what actions and motivations of Officer Shelby's would lead to each one.

Say it was as my first guess, she was keyed up, a loud noise or something made her jump, her finger was on the trigger either in violation of or in accord with Rule 3, and jumping, she fired without intent. What crime is this?

And what can she likely plead to? Involuntary manslaughter, no jail time, off the force?

Sounds about right, doesn't it?

but by all means, if she made and executed a proper, conscious shoot-no shoot decision, I hope she has a prosperous future in law enforcement.

I think if you asked her she would say she is very sorry about the whole thing.

Pity no one helped Mr. Crutcher. That would seem to have looked well on video.

Bad Lieutenant said...

By the way, Chuck, pick you other/s of the 16 other GOP candidates, and what do you think they would have said, and how long do you think it would have taken them to come up with it? There's something to be said for reaction speed in such a case.

Chuck said...

Bad Lieutenant said...
By the way, Chuck, pick you other/s of the 16 other GOP candidates, and what do you think they would have said, and how long do you think it would have taken them to come up with it? There's something to be said for reaction speed in such a case.


Jeb Bush, running a much much much bigger "enterprise" -- the State of Florida -- than Donald Trump has ever imagined, did very well in virtually every natural and political disaster to hit the state during his governorship.

John Kasich has great political instincts and personal command. Kasich has said, by my exacting count, 127,391 fewer dumbshit things, than Donald Trump.

Chuck said...

coupe said...
The only way the officer will stay out of jail, not be a convicted criminal, and not be sued for money, is if the autopsy report shows huge amounts of illicit drugs in the victim.


Assuredly, now, the city will be sued civilly. And, as now appears to be happening, the shooting officer is being charged with a crime.

The two things are technically/legally inconsistent, from the perspective of the decedent's heirs.

The city is vicariously liable, for negligence. The city is not vicariously liable, for a crime.

But that never stops pandering city politicians from ponying up million dollar settlement payments. i.e., Baltimore. (Officers all accused of crimes; settlement paid before a civil action was even filed, if I recall correctly.)

Bad Lieutenant said...

Chuck, do you even understand that what you just said was totally 100% non responsive?

Jonathan Graehl said...

Absolutely not reaching. At least, Scott Adams had the same reaction.