May 6, 2016

Is it just my imagination or have sentences suddenly got longer?

I blame Donald Trump. Seriously. I think commentators have become grandiloquent in response to what they feel is his crudeness, his brutality. And look for the words "crude" and "brutal." They're everywhere.

ADDED: It seems that the anti-Trump people are LIKE the pro-Trump people: so theatrically emotional. Maybe it's that everyone, deep down, knows the next president is Hillary Clinton, and it's a pre-freakout.

153 comments:

Mr. D said...

Faulkner would hate this moment.

Chuck said...

I won't become grandiloquent in response to Trump. I'll write in plain, short sentences. The plainest, shortest sentences in the history of our nation. Plain, and short. So plain, and so short, it'll make your head spin. You'll say, "But Chuck, your sentences are so plain and so short! We can hardly remember what 'grandiloquent' was like!" Believe me; incredibly plain, and short. Knocking the hell out of "grandiloquent." We're going to make the English language great again.

Cooked linguists.
#Sad.

shiloh said...

Yes.

TDS ... and now it starts as Trump and his supporters will play the victim card.

Very establishment eh.

Wilbur said...

I blame George W. Bush. Because Bush.

Phil 3:14 said...

Uh Professor, "Seriously." is NOT a sentence.

OTOH a Trump presidency would be a sentence.

coupe said...

I'm in favor of lots of commas, so it's not over till the period sings.

traditionalguy said...

I blame the semicolon disease.

David Begley said...

Unbelievably long. The longest ever. But still beautiful. Linguists love you. Dylan loves you. Madison loves you. Wisconsin loves you.

Hagar said...

The fox is in the henhouse.

Sebastian said...

"And look for the words "crude" and "brutal." They're everywhere." Yes, good to notice. Reverse sexism. Code words to rally female voters.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

I think I'm going to re-read that issue of Lapham's Quarterly on fashion, even though it was a disappointment. I expected it to comprise more in the way of analysis and theory. Anthropology. Science. That sort of thing.

Most of it was excerpts from the past complaining about some fashion of the day. And nearly all of those criticisms were about fashion involving personal adornment. Clothing. Hair. Makeup.

The idea of fashion applies to much more than just that.

And there's always some fashion to criticize.

EDH said...

And look for the words "crude" and "brutal." They're everywhere.

Isn't that just a negative spin put on "cruel" and "neutral"?

They even sound the same.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Well it's just your 'magination
Run on sentencing away with you

Can't go wrong with theTemptations.

EDH said...

Sebastian said...
"And look for the words "crude" and "brutal." They're everywhere." Yes, good to notice. Reverse sexism. Code words to rally female voters.

Yes! To turn around the old feminist trope: if Trump were a woman they would call him "cruel" and " neutral".

Curious George said...

"Is it just my imagination or have sentence suddenly got longer?"

Yes. No.

madAsHell said...

Longer sentences? I'll never know. I stop reading after the first dozen words.

EDH said...

Sentences just look longer when you trim the phrases around them.

Mike Sylwester said...

At a garage sale last weekend, I bought a copy of Jackie Collins' novel The World is Full of Married Men. I am reading and loving it.

I am not alone in loving it. The novel's Amazon webpage reports that 62% of reader reviews awarded it four or five stars.

The novel is about an amusing woman who wants to become a movie actress and is willing to sleep her way to the top.

The brilliant simplicity of Collins' writing is a continual delight.

There is a webpage that provides the novel's first chapter. Here are a couple of paragraphs:

Claudia returned from the bathroom. “Darling, what have you been doing?” she questioned. David pulled her down on the bed. “Thinking about you, about how you picked me up.” “That’s not true!” she protested. “You’re just a dirty old man who fancied me as soon as you saw me in that bath!” She was wearing her white terry-cloth robe again. David ran his hands underneath it. She shivered. The phone rang. “Saved by the bell,” she giggled, and rolled across the bed to answer it. It was her agent. David dressed slowly, watching her all the time. She spoke animatedly on the phone, occasionally pausing to stick out a small pink tongue at him. Finally she hung up. “Oh, you’re dressed,” she said accusingly. “I’ve got simply marvelous news. I have an interview with Conrad Lee tomorrow. He’s over here looking for a completely new face to star in his latest film; it’s all about the Virgin Mary or something. Anyway, I’m to see him tomorrow night at six in his suite at the Plaza Carlton. Isn’t it exciting?” David wasn’t pleased. “Why do you have to see him at night? What’s wrong with during the day?” “Baby, don’t be so silly. My God, if he wants to get laid he can get it just as well in the morning as any other time.”

... and ...

“I met this man once,” said Claudia. “He promised me a yacht in the south of France, a villa in Cuba, lots of jewels and all that jazz, and then he just disappeared. I heard later he was a spy and got shot. Life sure is strange.” After lunch they drove through the West End looking for a film they both wanted to see. “Look at all those nuts,” exclaimed Claudia, watching a large procession heading toward Trafalgar Square. “Can you imagine spending all your spare time rushing around tying yourself to embassies, and sitting down all over the place? And all the fellas have beards, I wonder why.” She snuggled up closer to David. “Let’s forget about the movie. Let’s go back to my place and screw. I feel like getting laid again, don’t you?” Who was he to argue?

http://www.amazon.com/World-Full-Married-Men/dp/0985745967
http://jackiecollins.com/the-world-is-full-of-married-men-chapter-one/

Ignorance is Bliss said...

If any candidate deserves a long sentence, it's Hillary!

Levi Starks said...

Try as I like, and believe me, I've tried, it seems almost impossible for me to write a sentence that when I'm done with it doesn't fall into the catagory of having become a run on sentence.

M Jordan said...

Thank God Althouse opens with a Trump post. Let's be honest, people: the world is talking and the conversation is Trump. Remember Obama? He once existed. But, as in the immortal words of Ken "the Hawk" Harrelson, "He gone." Remember Hillary? You surely do. She's that one lady who, I think, had something to do with something. She gone. They all gone.

Trump. 'Nuff said.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Levi Starks said...
Try as I like, and believe me, I've tried, it seems almost impossible for me to write a sentence that when I'm done with it doesn't fall into the catagory of having become a run on sentence.


Try comma splicing like a mad demon as I do, it'll spice things up, a bit.

Hagar said...

Write your run-on sentence. Then go back and break it up into shorter sentences.

Greek Donkey said...

New mandatory minimum sentences

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Speaking of language, how comfortable are you with "have got" in your headline (
"Is it just my imagination or have sentences suddenly got longer?"
Professor?

Grammarist: Got vs Gotten

Got/Gotten Distinction (John Lawler, Univ. of Michigan)

Hagar - No.
Greek Donkey - that's funny, I chuckled.

Writ Small said...

I think it is that Althouse is crushing hard on Trump. Trump speaks like Tarzan and she now sees the world as a dangerous jungle that only the dude in the loincloth knows how to navigate. Other men she previously admired are by unflattering comparison timid, weak, and - worst of all - long-winded.

But if you really want to read a long-sentence (and long) meditation on Mr. Trump, Andrew Sullivan's latest is a doozy.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/america-tyranny-donald-trump.html

Bob Ellison said...

HoodlumDoodlum, I used "gotten" in an assigned paper in college, and my teaching fellow, an Englishman, circled it. He was nice about it and said he had simply never seen the word before, but he decided after looking it up that it was probably OK, at least in America. Ever since then, I've swung both ways between the two words.

Daniel Richwine said...

His rhetoric makes others sound and read longer. The man is a sound bite machine, and that's part of his charm and appeal.
Kind of reminds me of the kind of overblown speeches politicians used to give in the 1840s and 50s. One reason Lincoln was underestimated was he spoke much more plainly, as if his listeners were thinking out loud. Serious speakers took hours, literally hours, to say things he did in 20 minutes. He changed politics with his style. I expect in about 5-10 years all politicians will sound exactly like Trump does now.

Michael said...

"Grandiloquent" gives them too much credit. They have become verbose out of discomfort with their own responsibility for creating this phenomenon.

Ann Althouse said...

"But if you really want to read a long-sentence (and long) meditation on Mr. Trump, Andrew Sullivan's latest is a doozy."

Yeah, I blogged that a few days ago. It does exemplify what I am talking about. To me, it reads as entirely deranged. I have to step back from what I am seeing. People have lost their minds.

M Jordan said...

Trump.

AprilApple said...

ADDED: It seems that the anti-Trump people are LIKE the pro-Trump people: so theatrically emotional. Maybe it's that everyone, deep down, knows the next president is Hillary Clinton, and it's a pre-freakout.

Absolutely. Is it over yet?


The delusional angry burn it down crowd handed us Hillary. Trump doesn't care. He likes the Clintons. He's fine and dandy with democrats running things.

eric said...

Speaking of losing their minds, Erick Erickson now wants the GOP to apologize for the Impeachment of Clinton.

Can you guess why?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Bob Ellison said...Ever since then, I've swung both ways between the two words.

Grammarfluid! Transsyntaxual?

Gahrie said...

Maybe it's that everyone, deep down, knows the next president is Hillary Clinton, and it's a pre-freakout.

If Hillary ends up as president I will indeed freak out.

We KNOW she has lied to our faces.

We KNOW she has deliberately tried to destroy her husband's victims.

We KNOW she has lied to grieving parents about the death of their children while standing over their coffins.

We KNOW she regularly sells access to her.

We KNOW she deliberately set up a private e-mail server to hide her thoughts and actions from us, and the government.

She's more Nixonian than Nixon!

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Ann Althouse said... People have lost their minds.

Where my country gone? Where is my mind?

(Animals, too)

Simon said...

@Mike Sylwester Whether or not one likes the content of Stephen King's novels (I don't), I think that anyone who writes, but especially anyone writing fiction, should read and pay close attention to his book "On Writing." Get it on dead tree, not an audio or eBook. I don't much care for biography, so I skip those parts, and dead-tree format is ideal for that; business books are the same, you've got to try and sift the valuable information from the boring stuff. But he has a ton of useful advice about writing forceful prose. I was pretty good before, but I learned a lot from him.

Ann Althouse said...
"People have lost their minds."

On that, we certainly agree.

Gahrie said...

The delusional angry burn it down crowd handed us Hillary.

The over-promise, do-nothing, Democrat-friendly, GOP Establishment crowd created the burn it down crowd over the last thirty years.

The only satisfying thing in this whole mess, is that the Establishment is now doing exactly what we expected them to do.

Fred Rawlings said...

Look, no Republican could win the presidency 2016. All those polls showing Kasich or whoever could beat the Democrat were bogus because they didnt take into account ALL of the media cheering for the Dems and demonizing the Repubs, and October surprizes, no matter who was the nominee.
So when Trump loses, at least we had a blowtorch who damaged Clinton and massacred political correctness for 6 months, and then the Dem will win just like Wapo and NYT want.

Trump is such catnip, cable TV will give him the microphone to rail at Hillary for the next 8 years so that she will be held to some accountability, more than if Jeb had lost to her.

David said...

Yes, except the sentences for crime.

Gahrie said...

He's fine and dandy with democrats running things.

So is the GOP Establishment as long as the donations, Washington Cocktail party invitations and K Street jobs keep rolling in.

Simon said...

AprilApple said...
"'ADDED: It seems that the anti-Trump people are LIKE the pro-Trump people: so theatrically emotional. Maybe it's that everyone, deep down, knows the next president is Hillary Clinton, and it's a pre-freakout.' Absolutely. Is it over yet?"

Yep. It's just exhausting; the die's cast, we know the outcome, can it just be over already? We're going to inaugurate a terrible President who will do a lot of damage to the country, and the tragedy is that it didn't have to be this way. But it is. Que sera sera. I'm not freaking out, I'm just saddened by how ridiculous and unnecessary it all is, and to learn (again, à la the S.H.I.E.L.D. civil war) that many people we thought to be allies have actually been HYDRA all along. “If by now you don’t find Donald Trump appalling," Bret Stephens wrote last August, "you’re appalling.” If you still don't find him appalling now, after everything you've seen—I don't want anything to do with you. If you aren't appalled by Trump, if you aren't actively opposing him (still less if you support him—gross), then I don't want to be associated with you, I don't want to know you, I don't want you serving me, I don't want to serve you; you a bad person and you should feel bad about yourself. Trump is a test of character, and it is terrifying how many people have failed it.

kjbe said...

Yeah, well, we're all freaking out.

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

Have sentences become longer? In written communication, yes. Writing has become sloppier in other ways also. In informal speaking, no; there run-on sentences have always been common.

Deterioration of writing discipline and editing is much noticed in newspapers. Long sentences, with divergences into phrases, are common. Phrases are often ill placed, creating doubt in the reader as to what the phrase modifies.

Needless possessives and contractions abound. Articles often begin like novels. Several paragraphs may pass before mention of the point the writer intends to make.

Simon said...

Fred Rawlings said...
"Look, no Republican could win the presidency 2016."

Garbage. Carly or Rubio could have won handily. Cruz could have won. All we had to do was pick one of several good conservative candidates and unite around them; Hillary is a terrible candidate, and she'll be a terrible President, but instead, a self-indulgent common rabble wanted to have their primal scream therapy, and once it became clear that Trump was a serious threat and only Cruz could stop him, a terrifyingly-large fraction of the grown-ups pouted and act like children because they didn't like Cruz. It's tragic.

Anglelyne said...

AA: It seems that the anti-Trump people are LIKE the pro-Trump people: so theatrically emotional.

I think the #NeverTrumpers have the #ProTrumpers and the #MehTrumpers beaten, hands-down, in the theatrically emotional department.

Maybe it's that everyone, deep down, knows the next president is Hillary Clinton, and it's a pre-freakout.

The #PutMyTrustInPrinces and #PartyBoys are freakin'. It's what they do. (What else have they got?) For #ItsNotAboutTrump, the fun is just beginning.

M Jordan said...

@Eric: Speaking of losing their minds, Erick Erickson now wants the GOP to apologize for the Impeachment of Clinton."

Nope. Do tell.

Dan Hossley said...

No, sentences haven't gotten longer. The Universe is expanding.

Nonapod said...

To be fair, I'm not entirely convinced Cruz could've won either. A candidate more palatable to the mushy middle (Carly or Rubio) perhaps.

I believe Trump's only chance is Hillary's indictment. Just a recommendation for indictment by the FBI may not be enough, the Dems are willing to stomach much more criminality and corruption from their candidates in the name of beating those "evil" Republicans.

Quaestor said...

Maybe it's that everyone, deep down, knows the next president is Hillary Clinton, and it's a pre-freakout.

Or Maybe it that everyone, deep, deep down knows the next president is Donald Trump, and it's a pre-pre-freakout...

Come on, Althouse, I'd say your phoning it in if that weren't an extinct metaphor.

Anglelyne said...

Simon: Carly or Rubio could have won handily. Cruz could have won...self-indulgent common rabble...primal scream therapy...terrifyingly-large fraction of the grown-ups...It's tragic.

Tragedy is the human condition, Simon. Pace the ancients, it comes more often from obliviousness than hubris.

Love ya. Don't ever change, you glorious flaming bastard.

rhhardin said...

Who even believes crude and brutal? PC must have taken over most of the media.

rhhardin said...

Who thought up tweeting Mexican food? A sense of humor beats PC but gets you in trouble with women.

Quaestor said...

I realize that blogging is still considered an un-serious literary form. But seriously, less than un-serious?

Pre-freakout?

Oh, I get it. You're alpha testing a new Althouse-bot, a kind of Chinese room experiment designed to bemuse us.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

By the by, the question "have sentences suddenly got [sic] longer" is an empirical one. Define "suddenly," define some domain for "sentences" (just newspapers, or newspapers + magazines, etc) and then test it. You use the reading score/reading grade calculator thingy from time to time, Professor, so the methodology wouldn't be unfamiliar. Test it!

Unless your question was really just trying to express the idea "it seems writers are using longer sentences lately," in which case you used 11 words to express something I used only 8 to express...

rhhardin said...

If Trump is lighthearted about Mexicans, feminism is in trouble, feminists think.

A guy like that is likely to similarly mock feminist fact or other.

Crudely and brutally.

rhhardin said...

Longer sentences is racist.

Quaestor said...

The curious thing about the is it just me or the is it just my imagination trope is nobody ever takes up the gauntlet and replies Yes. Now go take your meds and have a lie down.

M Jordan said...

"If Trump is lighthearted about Mexicans, feminism is in trouble, feminists think."

Wanna know how to get a feminist to like you? Tell them they're pretty.

Freeman Hunt said...

"So what do you think about the whole Trump thing?"

"What shall betide a Republic so lost of its moorings that the cruel visage of one so brutal in manner and phrase might garner countenance among freemen?"

"You don't like him then?"

"How could I, son of the visions of liberty hallowed by our very forefathers, offer heedless welcome to this calamitous besitation heretofore unknown in our unappreciatedly sober and temperate political climes?"

rcocean said...

Hillary won't be elected if all the anti-Trump "conservatives" would fall in line and support the Republican nominee.

Of course, they seem determined to help Hillary. To them Amnesty, Goldman Sachs, Open Borders, and useless wars in the Middle east = true conservatism.

ndspinelli said...

It's those damn mandatory minimum sentencing guidelines.

rcocean said...

"Erick Erickson now wants the GOP to apologize for the Impeachment of Clinton."

I've concluded that Erik Erickson and Red state are secretly getting paid by the George Soros to run the dumbest, most self-defeating, "Conservative" website and blog, ever,ever.

Its the only explanation of their behavior that makes sense.

Big Mike said...

It seems to me, based on everything I've read since Cruz and Kay-sick suspended their respective campaigns, that sentences are, indeed, growing in length -- albeit lessening in comprehensibility.

Or it could be me.

I like what Megan McArdle has to say about the rise of Donald Trump. The unfortunate thing is that she is likening him to Jesse Ventura and Arnold Schwarzenegger as a celebrity candidate. The former certainly had some accomplishments as Governor of Minnesota, but Schwarzenegger seems to have accomplished very little as Governor of California. The fortunate thing is that she seems to be predicting a win in November, precisely because the ultra-low information voters will be coming out to vote for him.

Birkel said...

There is a story in the news about the Obama (for whom Althouse did vote) Administration just making shit up as "news" for all the usual suspect outlets.

Althouse often quotes or links to these bull shit, made-up, fuck-all-stupid newspeak lies. Some of us call her on those lies, repeatedly.

And now we are told Hillary is inEVITAble by those same bull shitters? And we are supposed to freak out? The lies work on the stupid, I suppose.

JPS said...

"Maybe it's that everyone, deep down, knows the next president is Hillary Clinton, and it's a pre-freakout."

I don't know any such thing. My thinking brain says disregard the polls right now; I could see either one winning.

Deep down? I heard Donald Trump on the radio talk about Crooked Hillary, and I heard her devastating, she-was-waiting-for-this rebuttal: that in these times of uncertainty, "we cannot afford to elect a LOOSE CANNON." And in the back of my mind I heard Beavis: "Um, that sounds kinda like a compliment, Butthead."

I deplore Trump, but deep down I see him winning in the general. Which appalls me all the more, not that I'm crazy about the alternative.

(Still think if she looks weak enough this summer, Obama instructs Lynch to drop the axe, and the Democrats pull yet another Torricelli --> Lautenberg.)

Meade said...

Donald Trump said his vice presidential pick might be one of his presidential rivals. When asked which one, Trump said, "I haven’t decided yet, if it’s the liar, the loser, or the fat pig."

- Conan O'Brien, May 05, 2016

Chuck said...

I am still waiting for the Trump University civil fraud trial.

There may be a 1%, or a 10%, or a 55% chance (I really do not know) chance that Hillary will be in trouble for her private server.

But there is a nearly-100% chance that Donald Trump will be under cross-examination this summer in a New York courtroom, accused of civil fraud in the matter of one of his most notorious and spectacular business failures; Trump "University."

Trump may be the perfect Teflon interview on cable tv. But as a trial witness, answering tightly-organized cross-examination questions under oath, he is a complete disaster. It is a judgment I make after 30 years of trial practice in the defense of civil cases, preparing witnesses for trial testimony, and reading transcripts. Most recently, in reading Donald Trump's deposition testimony in the Trump University litigation.

Mike Sylwester said...

Mike Sylwester at 8:43 AM

There is a webpage that provides the novel's first chapter. Here are a couple of paragraphs:

Words per sentence = 7.4

tim maguire said...

Hillary Clinton is more likely to spend inauguration day in jail than in the White House. If the next president is a Democrat, it will be Joe Biden.

tim in vermont said...

I am working on a metal version of Ding Dong the Witch is Dead. What a day that will be.

MikeR said...

"It seems that the anti-Trump people are LIKE the pro-Trump people: so theatrically emotional. Maybe it's that everyone, deep down, knows the next president is Hillary Clinton, and it's a pre-freakout."
Total non sequitur. Trump is worth freaking out over, all on his lonesome.
That said, both sides aren't making sense. The man is a shock jock and most of what he says means nothing.
And Clinton is under serious investigation by the FBI. I think anyone who claims to be sure what will come of that, and when, is just pretending. Even if the DOJ makes a political decision not to indict, a recommendation by the FBI ought to be terribly damaging. It would make it more interesting, of course, if the FBI doesn't finish by the Democratic Convention...

Levi Starks said...

Is it just my imagination, or does every long sentence on Althouse.blogspot eventually wind up being about about Trump?

Anglelyne said...

Big Mike: ...precisely because the ultra-low information voters will be coming out to vote for him.

OT, but something just struck me. I have rarely (ever?) seen the term "low information" used to describe non-white voters. All kinds of other pejoratives,sure - stupid, easily-manipulated, free-loading, etc. But my impression is that "low-information voter" is generally found in the context of somebody describing the demographic slice of white voters voting in opposition to the writer's own ideology.

It's as if non-whites always have more or less legitimate, or at least rational, motivations for voting the "wrong" way - reaction to bigotry and discrimination, cultural preference, perceived group interest. Whites' voting the "wrong" way, however, is generally not seen to be caused by any of the above (and if it is, it isn't considered legitimate or even rational). Rather, it is attributed to some defect of intellect or education that results in their lacking the "information", the possession of which would of course cause them to direct their votes otherwise.

Or maybe my perception is wrong. Anbody else notice a skew in the use of the term "low-information"?

tim in vermont said...

I am ordering a container load of clothespins to sell on election day.

bagoh20 said...

1) Stream your consciousness. 2) Wait for reaction. 3) Adjust message and re-stream. 4) Repeat as needed until entertainment value has depleted.

All previous positions and thinking are irrelevant.

"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."

Meade said...

I just hope those clothespins won't be made in... CHINA!

Mike Sylwester said...

Mike Sylwester at 11:30 AM

[Jackie Collins] Words per sentence = 7.4

-----

Here is a long Althouse post:

https://althouse.blogspot.com/2016/04/whats-strong-gun-rights-position-on.html

Words per sentence - 18.1

chickelit said...

Anglelyne asks: Anybody else notice a skew in the use of the term "low-information"?

I recall it being used against Obama voters in 2012 -- mostly as a euphemism for urban blacks -- e.g., "Obamaphone" recipients.

I've noticed a correlation between academic degree and usage: the term is most often deployed by educated whites against anyone they deem intellectually inferior. It must rankle them to find MDs, JDs, PhDs among Trump supporters.

Levi Starks said...

Angelyne,
Could we simplify that and say that political correctness has taken us to the point whites are now the only race we're allowed to call stupid?
That makes me feel kinda special.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Anglelyne said: Or maybe my perception is wrong. Anbody (sic) else notice a skew in the use of the term "low-information"?
************

Sure. Remember that book, "What's the Matter with Kansas"?

chickelit said...

@Anglelyne: Of course, autodidacts probably use the term as well.

Gahrie said...

Trump is a test of character, and it is terrifying how many people have failed it.

How is Hillary any less a test?

tim in vermont said...

Lumpenprole seems sort of harsh.

buwaya said...

Trump is theatrically emotional, but its theater.

Gahrie said...

All we had to do was pick one of several good conservative candidates and unite around them;

The problem is, the GOP would rather have a Democratic president than a Conservative Republican president.

R. Chatt said...

Talk about a bunch of wusses and intellectual elitist snobs! I'm slightly put off by the continual crying about how Trump speaks, and zero examination of what he is proposing to do. Why not put your extraordinary brains toward more substantial concerns? How ironic is it that people who complain most about Trump are themselves superficial? Simple people are attracted to his message and character, not his idiosyncrasies. The other day in West Virginia he was talking about hair spray after he donned a hard hat given to him by the local miners, afraid he had mussed up his hair. Very human and the women in the crowd related. Funny.

What's important is who has the best judgement, the clearest vision, and can do the job; not who waxes poetic. (No offense to Freeman, I loved your comment.) Whoever said you have to be in love with the President, somebody back in elementary school? Do we have to create myths?

Regarding Trump's amusing/appalling speech patterns, what I find remarkable is that he will start talking about some topic, then get off on some tangent for dramatic effect, and then without missing a beat get right back to the topic he was discussing. He does this all the time, without using a written speech or teleprompters. So I appreciate that Trump has a very clear mind, he doesn't get rattled, and he is incredibly focused. He also inspires hope in people without being sanctimonious. That's extraordinary. That’s why I like him, and I don’t mind that he’s not a great orator.

An example of his judgement and ability to see clearly was his gambit of threatening to run as an Independent if the Republican establishment refused to accept him as a nominee. The establishment made a big issue of having him sign a pledge to support the nominee, and he insisted on everyone signing the agreement, which has now worked in Trump's favor. That wasn’t an accident, Trump made that happen. If however the Republican establishment goes back on its word and is too inflexible to accept him as the nominee that would be extremely disappointing to a lot of people. I hope this will be worked out and the will of the people will be honored. Otherwise the system is too rigged to be taken seriously any longer.

Achilles said...

"ADDED: It seems that the anti-Trump people are LIKE the pro-Trump people: so theatrically emotional. Maybe it's that everyone, deep down, knows the next president is Hillary Clinton, and it's a pre-freakout."

The pro trump people are, in general, desperate. We have watched the Democrat party open our borders and put us 20 trillion in debt. They have made us serve under a president that has mocked our service, turned our country into a craven embarrassment, and lied about why we have died to the country and our families.

And as bad as Obama is they managed to find someone worse.

Enter the Republican party. Enemies like Obama are bad. Cowards and betrayers are worse. Send us to fight? Yeah that's what we do. Tell us to rebuild 2 countries full of religious zealots that beat their women and hate our freedom? We do what we are told. Abandon us to the press and let them lie about us and our mission for 8 years and finally celebrate our humiliation?

When the Democrat party gets tired of expanding the welfare state, building up the National debt, and keeping our borders open they take a break and let the Republicans have a turn.

Speaker Ryan came out and said he isn't ready to endorse Trump. Trump responded and slapped him down like the Obama bitch he is. Paul Ryan hasn't seen an open border he couldn't support. He hasn't seen an omnibus he wouldn't pass. He hasn't seen a Muslim he doesn't want in our country. The only wall he wants is the wall that protects his mansion. His budget proposals grew government every year.

We have a lot of people out there right now telling us they wont support trump. They think he is crude. Or a liberal. Or whatever garbage they pull out of their ass. There is one thing he is now that matters. Trump is the last peaceful way out of the mess both parties have made. There is no reason for Hillary to be elected other than the cowardice and betrayal of people who say they believe in this country.

Mick said...

You're dreaming "law prof". Trump will wipe the floor with that old lady. LANDSLIDE.
You're not clueless enough to vote for that criminal are you? I mean you did vote for the Usurper... twice... OMG! What could those kids possibly be learning?

Anglelyne said...

chickelit: I recall it being used against Obama voters in 2012 -- mostly as a euphemism for urban blacks -- e.g., "Obamaphone" recipients.

Yeah, that's the kind of counter-example I was looking for to test my perception. I recall "LIV" being used against the "dippy white chick" sort of Obama voters rather than blacks (whom I recall being called all sorts of other things, though).


Levi Starks: Could we simplify that and say that political correctness has taken us to the point whites are now the only race we're allowed to call stupid?

Well, my claim was the opposite: whites don't get a pass for being uneducated or none-too-bright. Whites should know better. Poor, dumb minorities are victims. Poor dumb whites are contemptible.

It's not that ordinary, non-PC people don't look at a member of a minority behaving like a moron and say "geez, what a #%$(&@! moron". But to the media, academics, etc., personally accountable trash only comes in one color.

(As chickelit's counter-example shows, my perception about this may be skewed. Maybe I'm an LIP - low-Information Perceiver.)

Brando said...

"Look, no Republican could win the presidency 2016"

There too many variables to be sure of that, it's not even a sure thing that Hillary could beat Trump. Hillary is really weak--just look at a lot of her negative ads that even those of us predisposed against Trump are baffled by. And voters tend to switch parties after eight years--the out party is more motivated, the in party less so, independents get tired of the ins.

On the other hand, demographics and the electoral wall help the Dems, and the Dems are generally more united in national elections. Throw in an economy that is doing relatively well (certainly to what most people remember as where it was left when the GOP president was done--and whether it was his "fault" or not (or to Obama's "credit" or not) is immaterial). Considering all of that, the GOP has a tough hurdle but not insurmountable.

Achilles said...

R Chattanooga said...

" If however the Republican establishment goes back on its word and is too inflexible to accept him as the nominee that would be extremely disappointing to a lot of people. I hope this will be worked out and the will of the people will be honored. Otherwise the system is too rigged to be taken seriously any longer."

We ultra low information types figured this out. We ultra low information types are also going to be incapable of differentiating between the progressives trying to destroy the country and the "real conservative" cowards and/or betrayers enabling them.

Paul Ryan better get on the team. He is very conspicuous in his betrayals.

We are stupid that way.

Chuck said...

R. Chatt;

This ain't beanbag.

Donald Trump is a Birther; a Truther; a Vaxxer. He thinks that maybe Japan and South Korea should be nuclear-armed at their own expense, naturally. Donald Trump's domestic budget wouldn't touch the biggest part of any reasonable plan for a more-balanced budget (entitlements). He thought Michelle Fields' complaint against Corey Lewandowski was "made up." Until Trump's own surveillance video, requested and released to the public by police, showed that it wasn't made up (and why did Lewandowski, standing next to Trump when Trump uttered the "made up" remark, not speak up?!?)

Trump was genuinely satisfied with his proclamation about banning the entry "of all Muslims," until the complex impracticality slapped him and his small team of terribly inexperienced handlers whacked them all upside the head.

Trump has a history; his history as a businessman is oddly uneven. His history as a celebrity is highly successful; successful reality tv star, pitchman and country club operator.

You aren't being reasonable and giving Trump the benefit of a fair reading. You are willfully ignoring all of the weird, distasteful, ugly stuff surrounding Donald Trump.

Gahrie said...

You are willfully ignoring all of the weird, distasteful, ugly stuff surrounding Donald Trump.


None of which is nearly as bad as the weird, distasteful, ugly stuff surrounding Hillary.

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

Trump can't win the primary, they said.
Vote Kasich it will force a contested convention, they said.
Cruz will win with delegates on the second ballot, they said.
Hillary will win, they say.

George Ferko said...

Yes, sentences are much too long thanks to Bill Clinton signing into law the 1994 Crime Bill.

AJ Lynch said...

I get a cik of when Trump ends a sentence with "a lot" for emphasis. I am winning by a lot. I am worth a lot of money. I have done that a lot.

The comedians will have a field day with just those two words when Trump is prez.

cubanbob said...

Take Richard Nixon. Transgender him. Put her in a pantsuit. Strip her of all of Nixon's virtues and ethics and abracadabra you have Hillary Clinton.

Election night I'm going to sit outside in my backyard, fire up a good cigar and get pleasantly drunk on good cognac and then have the sleep of the damned since either way we will be damned in the morning.

Right now my magic eight ball is on the fritz: it's predicting with equal certainty the White House entrance gate will bear a plaque reading "The Trump Residence at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington DC" or "US Bureau Of Prisons Special Presidential Facility Unit #1 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington DC."

Nonapod said...

Rather, it is attributed to some defect of intellect or education that results in their lacking the "information", the possession of which would of course cause them to direct their votes otherwise.

Or maybe my perception is wrong. Anbody else notice a skew in the use of the term "low-information"


The first time I heard the term regularly bandied about was on Rush Limbaugh's show probably a few years back.

Obviously I can speak for others... but personally when I use (or abuse) the term, I don't necessarily attach such negative connotations as "defect of intellect or education". I associate it with a lack of time and energy.

I realize that most regular people have lives. I realize that there's only so much energy and time that a working person with a family can dedicate to researching and ruminating on politics. I realize that I (and probably most of us here) am an anomalous oddball. We're outliers who devotes a lot of time and effort into understanding and debating these issues.

chickelit said...

Chuck charged: You are willfully ignoring all of the weird, distasteful, ugly stuff surrounding Donald Trump.

OK, let's take the alleged "Trump hates women" meme. Give me a single example of Trump badmouthing a woman which can be reasonably construed to mean all or even most women? The fact is that Trump badmouthed or "insulted" several individual women. This has in turn been changed to mean Trump insulted all women.

There is a real lack of "species vs. genus" awareness among #NeverTrumpers.

Chuck said...

Achilles--

Somebody needs to call you out, on your lies about mainstream Republican views on immigration. You're a liar and a fabulist and I am your boy, if you want to pick a fight.

Since Democrats have been relentless and unyielding on amnesty, we would already have gotten a massive "comprehensive" (read: amnesty) bill, if Republicans were as soft as you allege. They aren't, and we have no bill.

Yes, there was a bare handful of moderate Republicans in the Senate who cooperated with Democrats, giving the Dems the absolute minimum needed to gain a cloture-majority passage in that chamber. House Republicans refused it.

To call that bill anything like a grand amnesty bill is a stretch; but the arguments on both sides are credible. Smart people on both sides could make good cases. Donald Trump is not one if those people.

buwaya said...

"Strip her of all of Nixon's virtues and ethics and abracadabra you have Hillary Clinton."

Nixon was a self-made man, the most extreme case since Lincoln. He was the son of farm worker, grew up in a one-room shack, went to a third rate college (because though he was offered a partial scholarship to Harvard, he couldn't afford it; Whittier is still a third rate college). Etc. This was a man who had to fight hard at every step in the cursus honorum.
His appearance and personality were obstacles he overcame through sheer guts and brains.

And as for intellectual abilities there is simply no comparison. I can't imagine Clinton writing what Nixon wrote in his retirement.

bagoh20 said...

"The problem is, the GOP would rather have a Democratic president than a Conservative Republican president."

And that's exactly what they, and all of us, will get now - no matter who wins. A majority of Americans do not support either candidate, yet we will get one of the two anyway. Talk about a failure of democracy - WTF?

Fernandinande said...

Anglelyne said...
Anbody else notice a skew in the use of the term "low-information"?


About the only place I see "political ignorance", etc, is from Ilya Somin of the Volokh Conspiracy (Old Archive, pre-WaPo)). He's an open-borders nut and therefore hates Trump. Some of his articles have some useful information (e.g. most people are wildly wrong about where federal money is wasted, er, spent), others are rather bizarre, citing ignorance about things people have opinions on, but can't actually "know" (Obama not born in US, Bush knew about 9/11 in advance, etc). But IFAIK, Somin doesn't mention race, something he's apparently quite ignorant about - or afraid of - since he never mentions it in his open-border screeds despite its applicability to that issue.

Achilles said...

Chuck said...

"You aren't being reasonable and giving Trump the benefit of a fair reading. You are willfully ignoring all of the weird, distasteful, ugly stuff surrounding Donald Trump."

Giving someone a fair hearing is reasonable. I don't know if that was a slip or freudian. Either way you are a jerk.

We know Trump isn't perfect. I have businesses that are failing right now. Hopefully we sign and sell one off today and get some money back. But we tried to do something. Trump tried to start a university. It failed in large part due to his inexperience in the field but also in large part due to a system that protects entrenched interests. You lawyers are just vultures that circle other peoples failures while doing nothing productive yourselves. We have lawyers circling us right now telling us how bad we are too. Fuck you people.

Trumps position on the second amendment alone is enough to distinguish him from Hillary. Period.

His free market health care proposals and tax reform proposals are gravy. Actually enforcing our borders? Incredible. A foreign policy that puts American interests above all others? Using the US Armed forces for their intended purpose of crushing our enemies rather than civilizing societies?

Trump is the only thing between us and president Hillary and there is a lot of good in his platform. Don't think we will give up if Hillary is elected. It will just go from peaceful to not peaceful. We will remember not just our enemies but also the cowards who didn't fight.

We wont remember your excuses, just that you were not there fighting.

Chuck said...

"The problem is, the GOP would rather have a Democratic president than a Conservative Republican president."

What a load of bullshit. Complete nonsense. What animated Trumpmania? Apparently, it was Trump's anti-conservatism. His promise of punitive protectionism on trade. His insistence that he would not touch entitlements. His authoritarian roundup and deportation of illegals. His promise to raise personal income tax rates on the highest incomes.

On the core traditional conservative social issues, Trump was never a real conservative until about 2014. When he began to say he was. Abortion. Same sex marriage. Even on immigration, his signature issue, Trump was last heard from in 2013, criticizing Mitt Romney for Romney's "self-deportation" comments in the 2012 campaign.

Trump's supporters sneer at the leaders of Reform Conservatism who criticized Trump. "Trump isnt running ad a conservative," they all say. And Trump endorsers like Bob Knight say that not only is Trump not a conservative, but that Trump isn't even a Republican or a Democrat!

If ever there was a real, live perfectly literal embodiment of a Republican In Name Only, it is none other than Donald Trump.

R. Chatt said...

Chuck says, "You aren't being reasonable and giving Trump the benefit of a fair reading. You are willfully ignoring all of the weird, distasteful, ugly stuff surrounding Donald Trump.”

Nothing more than I do for all the politicians, including and especially Barack Obama.

shiloh said...

"I am working on a metal version of Ding Dong the Witch is Dead. What a day that will be."

I feel your pain! ~ Keep hope alive!

Fabi said...

There was only one true conservative running this time -- my guy, Ted Cruz -- so I'll start looking for all the comments Chuck made about supporting him. Just kidding! He supported true conservative Marco "Amnesty" Rubio. Lulz

Chuck said...

Achilles - Get this straight, you fool; nobody is criticizing Trump for making a good faith effort at a for-profit school, and not succeeding. Hell, Mitt Romney -- a better businessman than Trump could ever comprehend -- saw some businesses get liquidated.

But Mitt Romney never got sued for fraud by his state's attorney general.

And Mitt was never mixed up in anything as ugly or as numbskulled as Trump University, making bogus claims about how the teaching staff would be hand picked by the Donald himself (a lie that Trump has largely admitted in his own deposition) or pulling the plug on the whole enterprise the moment that it required a substantial personal investment from Trump.

And let's not forget the mendacious use of a misleading after-the-fact Better Business Bureau report pulled by his staff from after the time that Trump University was forced to rename itself (it was never chartered as a university) and after it no longer had any students. No students = no complaints. No complaints = "A" rating. Complete, utter, mendacious bullshit from Team Trump.

Achilles said...

Chuck said...
"The problem is, the GOP would rather have a Democratic president than a Conservative Republican president."

"What a load of bullshit. Complete nonsense. What animated Trumpmania? Apparently, it was Trump's anti-conservatism. His promise of punitive protectionism on trade. His insistence that he would not touch entitlements. His authoritarian roundup and deportation of illegals. His promise to raise personal income tax rates on the highest incomes."

Talk about horseshit. Here is what motivated Trumpmania in order of importance:

1. Jobs and economic failure.
2. Border security not unrelated to 1.
3. Republicans in power selling out.
4. DC completely losing touch with the rest of the country.

Paul Ryan is going to get on board or be primaried out. He is everything that is wrong with Republicans right now.

Levi Starks said...

Speaking of weirdness, I wish someone would make a list comparing all the suicides, questionable, or unexplained deaths connected with the Clinton aristocracy as compared to Trump. Then ask yourself whose friend do you want to be?

bagoh20 said...

"We know Trump isn't perfect... Trump tried to start a university. It failed in large part due to his inexperience in the field but also in large part due to a system that protects entrenched interests."

It failed for the same reason as most of his other failures: He made bad decisions, under-performed in his personal responsibilities, and he made big bold promises to people that he then failed to follow through on - even on the easy ones like showing up, or hiring good people. Just like the university business, Trump is likewise inexperienced in the government business, especially the Constitutional limits of the job in both letter and spirit. Those facts are why it's hard for many of us to expect that any of his policy ideas or extemporaneous promises will be done wisely, legally, or even at all.

"Trump is the only thing between us and president Hillary and there is a lot of good in his platform. Don't think we will give up if Hillary is elected. It will just go from peaceful to not peaceful. We will remember not just our enemies but also the cowards who didn't fight."

This may be true, but him being the only thing now is not a particularly good outcome. And the violence, if it comes, will be your doing, not ours.

"We wont remember your excuses, just that you were not there fighting."

Just remember that the excuses included that we wanted to beat Hillary more than we wanted Trump, and also we wanted to not end up with the next worse thing to Hillary if we did win. It was the Trump supporters who put us in this lose/lose situation, by nominating the only candidate polling as a loss in the general, and the only one with a history of supporting and being like-minded with the enemy on the left.

We will remember the excuses, and they were all emotional populist crap.

Don't blame the non-Trumpers for what Trump gets us, even though many of us are now forced to vote for him too.

Achilles said...

Chuck said...
"Achilles - Get this straight, you fool; nobody is criticizing Trump for making a good faith effort at a for-profit school, and not succeeding. Hell, Mitt Romney -- a better businessman than Trump could ever comprehend -- saw some businesses get liquidated.

But Mitt Romney never got sued for fraud by his state's attorney general."

Romney is what is wrong with the Republican party. Romney never saw a Democrat he couldn't get along with. He trashed republicans in ways he never went after Obama who he basically endorsed. Romney was called a murderer by the left and never fought back.

We fought the lies against Romney. When a Democrat state attorney general protects an entrenched progressive industry by suing trump I am as on Trump's side as I was on Romney's side against the left then. They didn't sue Romney because they didn't need to. They knew he was a coward.

The difference is you people now. Romney passed obamacare. Period. Trump will actually fight for positions that are far more conservative than the positions Romney abandoned in cowardice. You people are just cowards and don't actually want an America with a border and a culture of freedom.

Achilles said...

I also fully expect Romney to endorse hillary.

Everyone who supported Romney in the 2012 primary should be ashamed. I can't think of a Republican who did more for the progressive cause since hoover. Maybe Nixon.

Gahrie said...

If ever there was a real, live perfectly literal embodiment of a Republican In Name Only, it is none other than Donald Trump.

You still aren't listening (or you really are a Democratic troll)

The only reason people support Trump is because it pisses off people like you.

Sammy Finkelman said...

Trump's school started out as one that offerd online courses, and it was maybe OK - but thenm after a year or two, they went to live sessions and replaced all the instructors and - for more money I think, and modeled somewhat on Scientology in its financing. It was acually two totally different things. Then at the end they changed the name again and went out of business.

AJ Lynch said...

Jeb Bush just announced he won't vote for Trump or Hillary. He and his brother George Bush are two f-ing pussies. They lose the game so they take their ball and go home.

mikee said...

" Maybe it's that everyone, deep down, knows the next president is Hillary Clinton...."

And the corollary to that statement: God help us all.

Fabi said...

I'm surprised Jeb! said that about not voting for Hillary -- he'd be the perfect running mate for her.

Simon said...

Gahrie said...
"How is Hillary any less a test?"

Because Hillary may be a liar and a crook, but her basic human decency is—compared to Trump—inarguable. Yes, he's that bad: He makes Hillary Clinton look ethical by comparison.

"The problem is, the GOP would rather have a Democratic president than a Conservative Republican president."

No, we know now what the GOP wants: The GOP wants a crass, boorish, populist con-man, because that's what they nominated. So fuck the GOP. Not my party any more. Enjoy your barge-fire.

Achilles said...
"The pro trump people are, in general, desperate."

Tough luck. If you're desparate now, imagine how desparate you're going to be when Hillary is elected—a result that you made inevitable.

"Speaker Ryan came out and said he isn't ready to endorse Trump."

He didn't go nearly far enough. If the GOP wants conservatives back, it has to forthrighly condemn Trump, deny him the nomination, and throw out his supporters. I won't share a party with you people, and it's going to get pretty hard to count to a majority with only a minority of a minority. Apropos:

"We have a lot of people out there right now telling us they wont support trump."

Approximately 70% of the country. Maybe you'll con 10% more, but that's it.

"Trump is the last peaceful way out of the mess both parties have made."

"Peaceful"! Right! That's the word for proto-Mussolini.

Cacimbo Cacimbo...
"Vote Kasich it will force a contested convention, they said."

Said no one except Kasich and his delusional supporters.

Achilles said...
"Trump tried to start a university. It failed in large part due to his inexperience in the field but also in large part due to a system that protects entrenched interests."

Jesus Christ, every time I think I've wrapped my mind around how stupid these Trumpkins are, I swear to God it gets worse.

Gahrie said...
"The only reason people support Trump is because it pisses off people like you."

Jesus Christ, every time I think I've wrapped my mind around how stupid these Trumpkins are, I swear to God it gets worse again.

Achilles said...

"Jesus Christ, every time I think I've wrapped my mind around how stupid these Trumpkins are, I swear to God it gets worse again. "

Watching Simon operate is interesting. Nobody with his English skills could operate with such obvious inconsistencies.

TCom said...

None of you anti-Trumps give one shit about America. It bleeds through your prose. You're ideological blowhards with excessive pride who prefer being correct over dealing with reality.

You have no idea what's simmering under the surface of America. Because, you see, there are people out there with different personalities than you. People who watch, and see everything. And when they start speaking out, people listen. Because these people deal in reality, not holier-than-thou blather spoken from your ivory tower personal megaphone, because you're just SO smart you won't compromise with anybody, not with America certainly.

Just watch closely, and you might learn something over the next half year.

Gahrie said...

Jesus Christ, every time I think I've wrapped my mind around how stupid these Trumpkins are, I swear to God it gets worse again.

You're the fucking idiot that keeps calling me a Trumpkin when I am the one that compares him to Hitler.


So fuck the GOP. Not my party any more. Enjoy your barge-fire.

If it got rid of you, I will.......

It's really amusing that the assholes who lectured me to be loyal to the party and vote for their stooges are now leaving the party because we finally rejected their stooges.

Birkel said...

George W. Bush gave us John Roberts, a new federal bureaucracy and a huge budget increase.

Why should Donald Trump be assumed worse?

Achilles said...

Birkel said...

George W. Bush gave us John Roberts, a new federal bureaucracy and a huge budget increase.

"Why should Donald Trump be assumed worse?"

The dominoes are falling.

Static Ping said...

I dunno about the long sentences. How long mine are depends on my level of sleep and my mood. Sometimes I just feel like writing that something out of an 18th century novel.

Are we freaking out? Probably. That's what happens when your two presidential candidates are a BS artist businessman with dubious morals, a dubious business career that seemed to exist mainly on taking huge risks, no political experience, and no coherent political philosophy taking on (most likely) a highly corrupt political operative, no doubt guilty of dozens of felonies and should be prison, who is generally considered a mean but not especially competent person, and whose list of political accomplishments are either massive failures or resulted from whom she married. Neither should be President. Ever. This is following two terms of a community organizer/Chicago sleaze who has more or less been quite successful in getting his way, often through illegal means, but very unsuccessful in benefiting the country, which is his job. When this is the choice, it is a sign that something has gone horribly wrong.

Freaking out is never appropriate, but great concern is mandatory. Why aren't you concerned?

And, yes, I used a long sentence. Might even be a run-on. Not changing it.

wholelottasplainin' said...


"But Mitt Romney never got sued for fraud by his state's attorney general."

************

Hardly dispositive. Jon Corzine didn't get sued for fraud by HIS attorney general , either.

Ya think "politics" had anything to do with it? Ya THINK?

buwaya said...

"Jon Corzine didn't get sued for fraud by HIS attorney general , either."

In a well-ordered country the California Democratic party would be the subject of a RICO prosecution.

Birkel said...

Achilles:

If you are searching for dominoes, look elsewhere. You are a terrible ambassador for anything. You have worked diligently to be a boring douchebag. Your argument (generously referred as such) are comically bad.

The highest praise I can offer is you are better than traditionalguy.

The Leviathan State cannot be negotiated away. It must be destroyed. In the meantime, I will work to protect mine from the collapse.

Quaestor said...

Gahrie wrote: You're the fucking idiot that keeps calling me a Trumpkin when I am the one that compares him to Hitler.

Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

AJ Lynch said...

Hillary Clinton is inarguably a decent human being Simon? Tell that to the families of the Benghazi victims who heard her lie to them at the memorial services. Tell that to the Watergate official who fired her from the committiee for her dishonesty.

Simon said...

I didn't say that Hillary Clinton is inarguably a decent human being, AJ. I said that she "may be a liar and a crook, but her basic human decency is—compared to Trump—inarguable. Yes, he's that bad: He makes Hillary Clinton look ethical by comparison." (Emphasis added.) She is atrocious, but he's worse.

chickelit said...

Simon says: I didn't say that Hillary Clinton is inarguably a decent human being, AJ. I said that she "may be a liar and a crook, but her basic human decency is—compared to Trump—inarguable. Yes, he's that bad: He makes Hillary Clinton look ethical by comparison." (Emphasis added.) She is atrocious, but he's worse.

They both have high negatives, but I wonder if polling make clear who is worse. The best poll would be a straight up comparative one in which people were asked to rank Hillary and Trump as better or worse in terms of decency. I've not seen that poll. Have you?

I rank Hillary worse than Trump; you obviously would interchange them. That's the basis of our difference in a nutshell.

Achilles said...

Birkel said...
"Achilles:

If you are searching for dominoes, look elsewhere. You are a terrible ambassador for anything. You have worked diligently to be a boring douchebag. Your argument (generously referred as such) are comically bad.

The highest praise I can offer is you are better than traditionalguy.

The Leviathan State cannot be negotiated away. It must be destroyed. In the meantime, I will work to protect mine from the collapse."

More crying. Don't need it. My arguments may be total crap. They are just better than yours.

We are kicking the open borders crowd out now. This republican party will clearly be working for the people it represents. No more omnibus bills. No more gang of 8. It will take years but we are going to achieve the goal we have been working for since Reagan was betrayed by Bush the 1st. I wish Cruz was the one to do it but he proved insufficient for the job.

Achilles said...

Simon said...
"I didn't say that Hillary Clinton is inarguably a decent human being, AJ. I said that she "may be a liar and a crook, but her basic human decency is—compared to Trump—inarguable. Yes, he's that bad: He makes Hillary Clinton look ethical by comparison." (Emphasis added.) She is atrocious, but he's worse."

Hahahahaha what a loser.

Birkel said...

Achilles:
Aside from your odd definition of crying, you are entertaining. Like a monkey, grind away.

You are a poor surrogate and a boring boor. If you aim to be a contemptible one note jackass, congratulations.

wholelottasplainin' said...

"And, yes, I used a long sentence. Might even be a run-on. Not changing it."

*****************

"I like the cut of your jib, sir."

----Henry James

Gahrie said...

Out of the frying pan and into the fire

Tell me about....I catch shit from Trump supporters because I say he's a dangerous unknown who rose to power through demagoguery and I catch shit from the GOP Establishment types for pointing out that they are the ones who created Trump by abusing and ignoring their base.

walter said...

Joe Biden channels a Trumpster:
"Four words. Trump that bitch!"

Achilles said...

walter said...
Joe Biden channels a Trumpster:
"Four words. Trump that bitch!"

You realize that your posts have no discernable point or coherence right? You are just wasting your time.

At least you are using fewer words than birkel.

walter said...

Oh Achilles...silly Achilles!

EMD said...

"Because Hillary may be a liar and a crook, but her basic human decency is—compared to Trump—inarguable. Yes, he's that bad: He makes Hillary Clinton look ethical by comparison."

In all of his years of doing business, you would think people would be crawling out of the woodwork to talk about how awful Trump really is. And yet ...

Achilles said...

Gahrie said...
"Out of the frying pan and into the fire

Tell me about....I catch shit from Trump supporters because I say he's a dangerous unknown who rose to power through demagoguery and I catch shit from the GOP Establishment types for pointing out that they are the ones who created Trump by abusing and ignoring their base."

I would like to discuss the concept of a dangerous unknown at this point in our government's development. Are we going to say bush was a known? Did we know he would take the first opportunity Republicans had control of the legislative and executive in decades and pass a new entitlement? Or start a war and abandon us to the press? John roberts count as a dangerous unknown? Hillary is at the least a dangerous known right?

walter said...

The Casino circuit is one standard.. Let's see how Trump U! shakes out.

walter said...

Achilles..
You never truly know what a candidate..or SCOTUS appointment, will do. But even within the primary, Trump, of Democrat lineage has bounced around..at times saying "I'm changing".
This is a new dimension of unkown.

Gahrie said...

Are we going to say bush was a known?

By some of us......

Did we know he would take the first opportunity Republicans had control of the legislative and executive in decades and pass a new entitlement?

What did you think "compassionate Conservative" meant?

Or start a war and abandon us to the press?

I don't really know what you meant here, but I think Iraq and Afghanistan were the right decisions, if handled somewhat incompetently. And the press was going to be hostile to the US, the Republican Party and conservatives no matter what Bush did.

John roberts count as a dangerous unknown?

See: Earl Warren, William Brennan, Charles Whittaker, Warren Burger, Harry Blackmun, John Paul Stevens, Anthony Kennedy, David Souter....

Hillary is at the least a dangerous known right?

Hillary Clinton is a lying, scheming, self-serving, corrupt, evil radical who will damage this nation. I could never vote for her, and honestly don't understand how anyone could.

Trump could turn out to be worse...he could be better. We simply have no reliable way to judge. I am troubled about his rise to power, and the fact that his support is rooted in anger.

Qwinn said...

I don't think Trump is worse than Hillary. But I do think Trump will be able to get atrocious leftist budgets and laws through Congress that Hillary never could, because (R). Just like Bush did. Hillary is almost certainly a worse, more corrupt human being, but Trump may be more dangerous.

Qwinn said...

Oh, and as much as I loathe Achilles, I understand what he means about Bush abandoning us to the press. Plenty of WMDs were found. We know the bulk of them were moved to Syria. He never pointed out that it was Armitage, not Libby, who leaked about Plame. This and a dozen other issues were left to his defenders to point out, but I can't really remember one time where Bush called the Left out on any of their (proven, inarguable) lies. I liked him as a person, but that was a serious dereliction of duty.

tim in vermont said...

I have never seen the claim before that Hillary "inarguably" was basically a decent human being. Goes to show you that if you live long enough...

tim in vermont said...

Funny how people who screamed bloody murder over Plame don't give the tiniest shout over the server.

Ken Mitchell said...

If elected, Hillary won't just be the "next" president of the United States; she'll be the LAST president of the United States.

Achilles said...

Qwinn said...
"Oh, and as much as I loathe Achilles, I understand what he means about Bush abandoning us to the press. Plenty of WMDs were found. We know the bulk of them were moved to Syria. He never pointed out that it was Armitage, not Libby, who leaked about Plame. This and a dozen other issues were left to his defenders to point out, but I can't really remember one time where Bush called the Left out on any of their (proven, inarguable) lies. I liked him as a person, but that was a serious dereliction of duty."

They all hate me
at the start,
but they learn I
have a good heart.

I still want Cruz in the white house writing all the legislation Trump will be too bored to deal with.

I also want Romney and Bush to start a 3rd party. Hopefully Clinton puts one of them on the dem ticket! Trump/Gingrich or Trump/Cruz vs. Hillary/Romney? Give me that. That is the realignment we need.