March 30, 2016

What really happened in this grope-punch-pepper-spray incident at yesterday's Trump rally in Janesville?

Video and descriptions at USA Today and at The Daily News. And here's the police press release.

The young woman is pepper sprayed, which looks terrible, but she's also seen smacking or trying to smack a man on the head. There's some confusing discussion of "groping." There might be a groping off camera. I've looked at several of the available angles, and I do see 2 hands holding her back, touching her on one shoulder (as she is getting very fervent vocally, aiming the word "fuck" right in the face of the white-haired man).

I'm connecting this incident with the San Francisco State dreadlocks confrontation — blogged here — and the charging of Corey Lewandowski. In the SFSU case, the woman grabs the man, and in the Corey Lewandowski case, the woman is touched only after she touches Donald Trump twice. There seems to be a traditional stereotype at play that ignores or minimizes battery by a female and holds the male responsible to refrain from doing anything physical, even in self-defense. It's an interesting stereotype. Perhaps you support it. The man should never hit the woman, even if she is hitting him. But how does that traditional model work in modern conditions of demanded equality, in which a woman actively participates in a rowdy protest or pursues journalism aggressively or instigates a confrontation with a passing stranger?

264 comments:

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Michael K said...

"I noticed this: Lewandowski prosecutor outed as Hillary supporter. This should surprise no one, that a (government employee) prosecutor would first support and contribute to Hillary, and secondly use his discretion to charge Lewandowski with a crime."

I should have thought of that. This is standard technique with Democrats. Lawfare. Except ISIS doesn't go to court. It blows up the court.,

Anonymous said...

Fabi, I was incorrectly accused of making up comments about the looks of the 15 year old girl being denigrated. Althouse asked for quotes, I gave her three. So I suggest that you re-read the entire thread before making ignorant accusations. Now I know what you are made of.

Drago said...

Matt: "Good grief this idiocy at Trump events doesn't end does it?"

Hmmmmm.

Matt: "It really makes you wonder about the kinds of people who attend these campaign rallies."

Hmmmm.

Matt: "I mean, I'm pretty sure most are good people but the perception is completely shot to hell at this point."

Ah yes. The perception of "good people" attending Trump events is "completely shot to hell"

Gee, almost as if by design.

And golly, Matt sure is "concerned" about that it, isn't he?

Michael said...

Wait a second. Someone called her a n...r lover. This was in Wisconsin, right? Wisconsin, Mississippi?

Only a yankee or a prog would use that phrase. Bizarre. Haven't heard it in forty years.

Anonymous said...

@Fabi,

Here, I made it easy for you. Up your own game, you moron.
-----------------------
Blogger Ann Althouse said...
"Now we hear insults toward this girl because she isn't the stereotypical beauty queen?"

What does that refer to?

Quote something. Off hand, I don't believe you. Who insulted her for not being a "stereotypical beauty queen"?

Could everyone make a special effort to tell it straight and stick to the facts?

I've put my "too much drama" tag on nearly every post today.

Try to be part of the solution not part of the problem. I'm talking to pro- and anti-Trump people.

3/30/16, 11:07 AM
----------------------------
My response was,

"Who would want to grope you anyway?"@10:59 AM

"Sexual assault? In her dreams. That's one homely looking female with a lifetime of bitterness to look forward to and apparently jumping in with both feet."
3/30/16, 10:46 AM
--------------

Achilles said...

Amanda said...
"After she was pepper sprayed, a Trump supporter told her: “You goddamn communist nigger-lover, get the hell out of here!"

Nice."

Dimes to dollars this was a BLM activist moby. Nobody actually talks like that and the audio is perfect. This was staged just like most of the other race hoaxes the left perpetrates when it can't find the racism they need to keep their narrative going.

Trooper York said...

Meade you worthless cunt. Stop posting on my threads at Lem's. You are not wanted. You will be deleted. Just the way you delete Mary here. It is the same campaign of trolling and harassment. I know you and the Evil Blogger Lady are the poster children for hypocrisy but get a clue and stay away.

Anonymous said...

"Wait a second. Someone called her a n...r lover. This was in Wisconsin, right? Wisconsin, Mississippi?"

Not surprising at all from Trump supporters.

mezzrow said...

So now we know, Amanda is in 3rd grade.

No, Amanda is a bot. It's the only explanation that makes any sense to me.

Drago said...

Michael: "Wait a second. Someone called her a n...r lover. This was in Wisconsin, right? Wisconsin, Mississippi?

Only a yankee or a prog would use that phrase. Bizarre. Haven't heard it in forty years."

Mahal famously made a comment with the term "blackys" which apparently he thought was quite topical.

Anonymous said...

"A BLM moby", hahahaha, surrrrrrre.

Achilles said...

Matt said...
"Good grief this idiocy at Trump events doesn't end does it? It really makes you wonder about the kinds of people who attend these campaign rallies. I mean, I'm pretty sure most are good people but the perception is completely shot to hell at this point."

Thanks for your concern.

Just so you know I think you are a bad person too. I will respond to you the way you treat me. There will be no more acceptance of your activities as the norm. I will not go to your rallies and assault and abuse Hillary supporters. But if you come to a Trump rally and assault and abuse his supporters guess what is coming.

Just wait until someone goes over to tri-state and gets a can of bear mace.

Fabi said...

No, Amanda. He later explained what he meant -- you were called out for that single comment, not anything post facto. Rick also took you to task when, again, you incorrectly interpreted his post, re: Goldstein. Lulz

Let's be honest: you add nothing of merit in these comments. You have, just in this thread, called people Neanderthals, homophobic, and the like; twice you've used versions of 'perpetually aggrieved white males'. Are you incapable of advancing a rational argument? Is puerile name calling all you have? That may be regaled at Daily Kos, but it's meaningless here.

Up your game.

Achilles said...

Amanda said...
"A BLM moby", hahahaha, surrrrrrre."

Since you never actually talk to any you have no idea what they are like. Everything you put out is pure projection.

The BLM crowd has been caught repeatedly hoaxing racism. This is just another episode.

Holding My Nose said...

The woman was allegedly touched by Lewandowski. You should know better.

Mark said...

It's always a Moby to people here.

Never can they take responsibility for bad actors on their side, or unnecessary escalation to pepper spray.

Enjoy November when you harvest what you are now sowing.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael K said...

"Enjoy November when you harvest what you are now sowing."

I'm looking forward to it. I'm wondering if the indictment comes before or after the election. Hillary had better win so she, like Jaques Chirac, can cling to office to avoid jail.

Anonymous said...

@Fabi,

You think you are making some point here, you're not. What I see you doing is making an ass out of yourself.....as usual. I suggest you up your game so as not to embarrass yourself. I provided the interaction between Althouse and myself. If you didn't understand her request to me, that's your problem. Quit interjecting yourself where you don't belong.

Fabi said...

Thanks for your 2:25, Amanda, but you're only reinforcing my point -- you injected the phraseology "stereotypical beauty queen" not the other commenter. Quit while you're behind. Lulz

RC3 said...

"The pepper spray is an overreaction. Don't we all agree about that?" - A.A.

Another no, don't agree vote (if there was no sexual grope). How about a poll?

"We can't go forward with everyone spraying anyone who grabs or smacks them." - A.A.

Maybe not lightly grabs, but:

We can go forward with everyone spraying anyone who smacks them.

Anonymous said...

So true Mark. What happened to those conservative "values"?

Mark said...

Michael, you have been talking about impending indictments since Benghazi.

Your track record is laughable.

Anonymous said...

Fabi, I believe Althouse wasn't asking for me to provide her with quotes with the exact words "stereotypical beauty queen", but instead was asking for me to provided the quotes denigrating her looks. Sorry if you don't do nuance well. Work on it. That I would have to explain this to you tells me you are simply trying to create some issue that didn't exist.

jg said...

Childless Amanda. Changing the bedpans. Cleaning out the litter box. Correcting ignorance and hate everywhere. Thank you.

Achilles said...

Mark said...
"Michael, you have been talking about impending indictments since Benghazi.

Your track record is laughable."

I had a TS/SCI clearance. If I did what Hillary did I would be in jail for life. The only reason she is not is because she is rich, powerful, and politically useful to the people who would indict her. She is not in jail because of corruption in its' purest form. These are facts that you can't deny.

You are supporting the woman who smeared and intimidated the women her husband raped out of pure political expediency. You are a terrible human being.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Achilles said...

Amanda said...
"Fabi, I believe Althouse wasn't asking for me to provide her with quotes with the exact words "stereotypical beauty queen", but instead was asking for me to provided the quotes denigrating her looks. Sorry if you don't do nuance well. Work on it. That I would have to explain this to you tells me you are simply trying to create some issue that didn't exist."

The issue is that you are putting forth arguments in bad faith. They are dishonest and generally stupid. In addition to that you are denigrating all women by lumping them in with these protesters. Most women are intelligent and responsible. You keep insisting they are not.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mark said...

Achilles, you keep trying to put words in my mouth. Please quote where I support Hillary if you want to claim I do.

I only say your claim of impending indictments is a joke it has been for 9 months already.

Quit commenting in bad faith.

Achilles said...

Mark said...
"It's always a Moby to people here."

There have been more moby's caught than legitimate racial incidents lately.

Just going with the averages.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fabi said...

She quoted that exact phrase for some reason, Amanda, but I don't want you to further clog up this thread with your obfuscations, so I'll let you declare victory and have the last word on the topic. Lulz

Anonymous said...


Now I'm "childless", a 'lesbian' and some other commenter? What else? No one said commie, no one said n****r lover yet, strange. This is who the Trump supporters are. The scum on the pond, angry perpetually aggrieved white men. Don't be such losers.

n.n said...

First Obama threw grandma off the cliff, and now they are following his instruction to assault elderly men.

Well, only those who oppose progressive wars, social justice-inspired humanitarian disasters, mass exodus from second and third-world nations, abortion rites, clinical cannibalism, selective exclusion, and subsidizing juvenile delinquency.

Achilles said...

Mark said...
"Achilles, you keep trying to put words in my mouth. Please quote where I support Hillary if you want to claim I do."

Fine. You might have a soul unlike Hillary supporters.

"I only say your claim of impending indictments is a joke it has been for 9 months already.

Quit commenting in bad faith."

It is only a joke because of the corruption in the democrat party. If Bernie commits to putting Hillary in jail and cleaning out the democrat party I would vote for him over Jeb or Rubio.

I would support him going after the Wall Street/SEC cabal as well. Anyone who has worked at both a big 5 bank and the SEC in a 5 year span is essentially corrupt. I don't think he will though.

And I am not commenting in bad faith. I was misrepresenting your paradigm. Please continue to clarify an actual paradigm if you want. But Hillary is corruption epitomized. Any claim she isn't is laughable.

Achilles said...

Amanda said...

"Now I'm "childless", a 'lesbian' and some other commenter? What else? No one said commie, no one said n****r lover yet, strange. This is who the Trump supporters are. The scum on the pond, angry perpetually aggrieved white men. Don't be such losers."

You are astro-turf. What you are doing when you aren't being paid is pure speculation.

Mark said...

Achilles creating the 'too much drama' Althouse tagged this post with

I will be waiting for the indictment,lol

Jason said...

Althouse: The pepper spray is an overreaction. Don't we all agree about that?

Try to punch me. You'll find out.

Michael K said...

"I only say your claim of impending indictments is a joke it has been for 9 months already."

I agree that Hillary is an expert at coverup. The Rose Lw Firm billing records turned up years after they "vanished."

She may skate on this but history will not be kind. I think there will be a revolt in the Intelligence Community if she skates and maybe even in the FBI. The next time I have breakfast with my daughter, who is an agent although a lefty, I'm going to ask her. I'll be curious if politics trumps (pardon me) her integrity as an agent.

Amanda sounds enough like Inga that I'm not sure they are two people. Inga, I think I recall, said she was a nurse so I'm not surprised there.

Rick said...

Amanda said...
Now I'm "childless", a 'lesbian' and some other commenter? What else? No one said commie, no one said n****r lover yet, strange. This is who the Trump supporters are.


We'll see whether this actually happened. There were multiple videos so we'll see if it was recorded on others, and if so who said it.

But set that aside and consider Amanda's stated philosophy that people are personally defined by the worst actions of anyone holding similar political positions. Among other this means she believes making false accusations of assault are acceptable if they further her political agenda ( San Francisco State University). It means she supports slut shaming women if it defends a left wing politician (James Carville). It means she believes national security and law are unimportant when protecting her own interests (Sidney Blumenthal). It means she supports fabricating false rape accusations against a fraternity and publicizing them nationally (Sabrina Rubin Erdely).

Now I don't really think she believes this, she's just incapable of understanding what her hatred drives her to say.

khesanh0802 said...

Too many comments to see if someone already said this: It seems to me with women shrieking for equal treatment by men they should expect, when they invade a man's space, to be handled and sometimes severely. When we were told to stop holding doors for women they lost all special protective privileges.

Sydney said...

There seems to be a traditional stereotype at play that ignores or minimizes battery by a female and holds the male responsible to refrain from doing anything physical, even in self-defense.

I think it is more than a stereotype. It is an expected behavior. I believe that in domestic abuse cases, a man gets arrested for hitting back or pushing back. Doesn't matter if he acts in self defense. I also don't think women get charged for hitting. But that might be because the man doesn't want to look like a wuss by filing a domestic abuse charge against his female partner. A different dynamic probably occurs in same sex domestic abuse cases. I suspect both partners are hauled away in those cases.

Achilles said...

Mark said...

Achilles creating the 'too much drama' Althouse tagged this post with

I will be waiting for the indictment,lol"

Elect Hillary. See what happens.

You call it drama. I call it something else. ;)

Matt said...

If Hillary leads in the delegate count even if all the superdelegates switched to Bernie, she will not be indicted. If Bernie is close enough such that most of the superdelegates switching to him will give him the nomination, then Hillary will be indicted. You heard it here first!

Also, I disassociate myself from the other Matt. We share a name but that is all!

Furthermore, Amanda has the Althouse endorsement, as such, anything Amanda says is Althouse approved!

And why does Meade engage in the same behavior at Lem's that led to others banishment from this site? I generally like Meade and find his comments over there beneath him.

It seems to me that the pepper spray de-escalated the situation.

Mark said...

Achilles, your fixation with Hillarys indictment is even more pathetic than Garage's years long quest for Walker John Doe indictments.

Think about that a second, the company you are keeping in this endless drumbeat awaiting prosecution.

Matt said...

Achilles

"Trump will give them jobs and the opportunity..."
"Hillary will make sure they get free birth control, abortions, and the ability to yell scream punch kick scratch..."

Please tell us your not that partisan and naïve? Good grief you're stacking the deck in hilarious ways. It sounds like you think Trump is running for CEO of some startup company and Hillary is running for CEO of a company that sells typewriters. Trump alone will not raise all boats for business. Doesn't work that way. You have to know that.

n.n said...

khesanh0802:

women they lost all special protective privileges

No, it just requires extra effort to separate the conservative from the liberal. Most women do not support or adopt female chauvinism, nor do they exhibit other evidence of class diversity. Americans are still sufficiently lucid to reconcile moral and natural imperatives, despite the progress of pro-choice religious principles. They also don't participate in hate mobs to intimidate, discriminate, or disrupt peaceful assemblies.

Rick said...

Matt said...
Furthermore, Amanda has the Althouse endorsement


Surely when Althouse said she wanted more liberal commenters she meant reasonable liberals and not crazed conspiracy theorists? She already has garage and Cook so there wasn't a dearth of inventory on the high left shelf.

eric said...


Amanda sounds enough like Inga that I'm not sure they are two people. Inga, I think I recall, said she was a nurse so I'm not surprised there.


Yes, Amanda is Inga, and several others that came after Inga.

But each of me and makes a complete fool of herself, she goes away and then creates a new identity to start again.

What ever happened to garage?

donald said...

This stupid juvenile fat cow is a perfect example of the fierce bravery of "feminism". You want to play grown up missy? This is how it works.

fight the power! Oops, he hit me! Waaaaaahhhhhh.

Michael K said...

"Achilles, your fixation with Hillarys indictment is even more pathetic"

Some of us find it hard to accept that the country is really that corrupt and the political class is really beyond parody.

I accept it but still hope I'm wrong.

Bruce Hayden said...

Will Hillary be indicted? I don't think so. Why not, esp. after apparently committing a large number of felonies? My theory is that AG Lynch is going to slow walk the likely FBI referral. She has no legal obligation to do anything after getting an FBI referral, and likely will not. We aren't talking about rejecting the referral, but rather, just doing nothing. Well within the discretion of the Attorney General.

Why would she do so? Lynch was originally appointed to server as a US Attorney (USA) by Hillary's husband. She ultimately lost that position, thanks to the election of GW Bush. But, then she got back her USA position with Obama. And, then she got promoted to be Attorney General. But the thing to remember is that she was a Clintonista before she was an Obama adherent. And Hillary can offer her what she can't get elsewhere - another 4 years as Attorney General. Which is why Hillary can be so blasé about being indicted - she probably won't be, because her deal with AG Lynch is already done and paid for.

The way that we see what is going on behind the curtains is to see what is leaked by the FBI and/or the intelligence committee. If they dump enough to make her look guilty, take that as an admission that the fix is in.

JCC said...

It looks to me like the young woman and the old man argued, the man had a sheaf of papers in his hand and his inadvertently brushed the girl with the papers as he waved them and as she leaned into him. She immediately started yelling that he touched her, while he raised his hands, showing he wasn't touching her. I have the sense the girl was trying to turn the argument into something more, maybe because she wasn't convincing the man by yelling "fuck" at him. The girl then looks around and takes a swing at the man, and gets pepper sprayed for her trouble.

The girl is tall and heavy, and probably used to getting her way in her peer group by being pushy, typical of those who are oversized at 15. That's just human nature. Screaming obscenities at an adult and then trying to claim he touched her when he obviously had no such intention also are a tip-off of where her head is. There is no way to see of someone actually groped her in the crowd, but I think it doubtful. She was spoiling for a fight and didn't yell "Don't touch me" or similar again. She went for the man's head because she was angry.

The pepper spray is an over-reaction but certainly satisfying at some level. The girl is clearly in the wrong.

By the way, under Wisconsin statute, committing simple battery on a person 62 or older is a felony. Oops.

And if anyone other than a genuine child - female, male, old, young - tries to hit anyone of either gender, of any age, they should reasonably expect to get hit back with disproportionate force. Way it works in the real world. To be completely un-PC, if this 15 year girl wants to act like a man, then she's going treated like a man. It's hard to say because of the camera angle, but the 15 year old looks like she's about 5'8" or 5'10" and weighs in at a good 180 or 200. This is no ballerina we're talking about.

My opinion of Trump is pretty low, but it's the protestors, not the supporters, who look more like they need to be jail.

virgil xenophon said...

What Achilles, @ 2:55pm said!!! ALL of it...(said this USAF Vietnam combat veteran--all 232 msns worth..)

PS: I also had A TS/SCI clearance in my other life in the AF as well, not to mention TS Cosmic (NATO) Atomal (atomic weapons) So I know just a little bit about security classifications, clearances, comsec and penalties for breaches thereof.... If Hills were ANY OTHER person she would already be wearing an orange jumpsuit with a lifetime vacation at the greybar hotel..

Fabi said...

That's an interesting point about felony status for assaulting someone 62 or older, JCC. In two of the videos online she clearly lands the punch.

Something else I noticed in watching additional videos of the assault: she and her cohort had their hair up in tight buns -- something that female agitators due to prevent having it pulled. It appears as if she came to the event prepared for conflict.

Michael K said...

"Screaming obscenities at an adult and then trying to claim he touched her when he obviously had no such intention also are a tip-off of where her head is. "

She should transfer to Yale but she would have a color issue. Not black.

JCC said...

@ Michael -

Like political discourse generally, the conversations around here are starting to degenerate somewhat, eh?

But I do think it accurate that heavy, larger-than-the-rest teenagers are often bullies who are used to having things all their way and they don't react well when someone stands up to them, even as in this case, an adult. I cannot imagine a normal 15 year old female yelling "F*ck you!" at an older man and then trying to punch him, because they are at a political rally. Wonder where she learned about personal violence? That girl is going to be a spousal abuser, and looks to have the wherewithal to manage it well too.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

She deserved to get pepper sprayed; she said so herself, and I agree. It possibly saved her from a beating. The closest thing to groping was when her Asian friend grabbed her coat to hold her back.

Maybe the old momentarily and inadvertently came into physical contact with her, but that's not groping. It's obviously a politically motivated smear. I hope she gets arrested and prosecuted.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

Some women think they're so sexy all over that any touch they get must be sexual in nature. For some women this may be true; for that cornfed heifer in the video, not so much.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

Ann Althouse said...

"What a dirty trick it would be to stand there arguing with someone, jacking them up until they lose control and take a pop at you and then you let loose with a face-full of pepper spray."

The female was the one instigating the fight, AND the one who threw the punch. The man arguing was NOT the one who sprayed her.

That person with the pepper spray was at the ready.

We can't live like that."

Gotcha. We can carry weapons for self defense as long as we're not prepared to use them when needed.

Moneyrunner said...

Ann says that "a man should never hit a woman" even if he's being attacked. What a medieval attitude. And how inappropriate in an age of gender equality.

Jason said...

Update: She is 19, not 15. And was never groped.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/04/01/investigators-recommend-charge-for-teen-pepper-sprayed-at-donald-trump-rally.html

Everything... EVERYTHING the libs were saying about this incident is a lie.

As usual.

SheriB said...

Another video has surfaced showing the white haired man did in fact grope her several times. She was not the only one being rude.

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