March 24, 2014

"In the government’s eyes, the Branch Davidians were a threat."

"The bureau trained spotlights on the property and set up giant speakers that blasted noise day and night—the sound of 'rabbits being killed, warped-up music, Nancy Sinatra singing "These Boots Are Made for Walking," Tibetan monks chanting, Christmas carols, telephones ringing, reveille... I got to where I was only getting about an hour or two of sleep every twenty-four hours.'"

Malcolm Gladwell article in The New Yorker
, drawing heavily from Clive Doyle's memoir "A Journey to Waco." Doyle was a survivor of the fire that killed 76 persons.
He and a group of nine or ten people had been clustered in a passage at the back of the chapel when, suddenly, he says, everything turned black. He was hit by a wave of unbearable heat, and fell to the floor. He prayed to God for a miracle. He saw a hole in the wall, and crawled toward it.

Outside, the F.B.I. agents manning the loudspeaker system were chanting: “David, you have had your fifteen minutes of fame. [Koresh] is finished. He is no longer the Messiah.” Doyle continues, “I looked at myself. My jacket was melting all over me and smoking. The skin was rolling off my hands. It was not blistering, it was just rolling off. I turned around and looked at the hole, and it was a big mass of flames. The thought that went through my head was: No one is coming out of there now.”

106 comments:

mccullough said...

That Janet Reno wasn't fired for the incompetence at Waco is still stunning.

Matthew Sablan said...

On the one hand, Koresh was a nut job. On the other hand, Waco was handled so epically poorly that you almost forget that.

This is the first I'd heard about the noise assault. If you want to negotiate with people, I feel like making them irritable and less likely to make well-thought out decisions to be a bad idea if you want to end the situation without violence. But, I'm not an expert.

paul a'barge said...

Bill Clinton.
Janet Reno.
Satan's bitches.

SteveR said...

I lived in Dallas at the time and it got coverage matched only by what CNN has for the missing Malaysian airliner. But it was mishandled from the beginning all the way up to the end, and yes in retrospect, Janet Reno should have lost her job.

SteveR said...

@Matthew, As I recall the noise assault was well into the process, after many other things were tried. Koresh really was a nut.

chickenlittle said...

I shot a man for Reno, just to watch him die.

mesquito said...

An ATF publicity stunt gone horribly wrong.

Moose said...

You don't get to shoot up Federal agents without paying the price. Due process be damned...

SJ said...

Per Waco:

I've seen a researcher who brought up lots of evidence of government mishandling of the Waco situation. The evidence was discovered via FOIA request.

The scary part:

[quote]
"The official version is undercut by BATF's concession that, when informed of the investigation, Koresh invited agents to come over, look at the firearms, and take any that they might feel were questionable. It is also undercut by a rather embarassing event. Thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, we now know how ATF undercover agents investigating the case spent February 19, 1993--nine days before the raid.

They went shooting with David Koresh. He provided the ammunition, and they handed him their guns. No, I am not jesting. And yes, he knew they were agents. [end quote]

Likely, the assault on Waco was political theater intended to make the ATF look important during Congressional Committee meetings during budget season.

The Cracker Emcee said...

Those crazy '90's. I remember Frontline actually did two shows that were highly critical of Janet Reno. Imagine them being critical of a Democrat today!

Michael said...

What a terribly sad story. If our govt. decides to turn on you, in violence or in court, you are finished.

Michael said...

What a terribly sad story. If our govt. decides to turn on you, in violence or in court, you are finished.

Ralph Hyatt said...

You know, at one time I thought that incinerating nearly 30 people under 18 years of age, even if not intentional, would get someone in trouble.

I was naive.

MadisonMan said...

Being in the Government means never having to say you're sorry.

traditionalguy said...

Interesting story from the Clinton years. And today's stealthy militarization of the Federal Government is the story of the decade.

While professional soldiers cannot have weapons on their military bases, Bureaucrats who are being trained intensely how to arrest, detain and abuse civilians are being armed to the teeth with vast ammunition stores, riot control weapons and Armored Vehicles brought back from urban warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I remember there was an early Obama gang plan to create a Presidential para-military force to suppress any local resistance to redistributions.

Michael K said...

"Likely, the assault on Waco was political theater intended to make the ATF look important during Congressional Committee meetings during budget season."

Most people have forgotten how lawless the Clinton administration was. They began with the Travel Office and went on the the Hillary secret committee and Elian Gonzales, Ruby Ridge and then Waco.

I knew the area around Ruby Ridge. The local juries acquitted Randy Weaver and the ATF had clearly entrapped him, then arranged for him to miss his court date.

The local legal system indicted the FBI sniper that killed Weaver's wife.

FBI HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi was indicted for manslaughter in 1997 by the Boundary County, Idaho, prosecutor just before the statute of limitations for the crime of manslaughter expired, but the trial was removed to federal court and quickly dismissed on grounds of sovereign immunity

Waco was just one of the lawless actions of the Democrats under Clinton. Janet Reno had a history in Florida before she was AG.

Before her appointment by Clinton, Reno was district attorney in Dade County. There she catapulted to national attention on the basis of her prosecutions of child sex abusers: the only trouble was that the cases on which she achieved her fame were phony from top to bottom.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Janet Reno deserves to be burned alive for this.

alan markus said...

At least Koresh's '68 Camaro 427 survived - I remember David Koresh going nuts about how that car was being handled (tank pushed it out of the way), as well as his '68 El Camino SS getting destroyed.

Puny market for Davidian muscle car / David Koresh's pride and joy fails to excite many bidders

Bob Boyd said...

Fallout from Waco:
" Motivated by his hatred of the federal government and angered by what he perceived as its mishandling of the 1993 Waco siege and the Ruby Ridge incident in 1992, McVeigh timed his attack to coincide with the second anniversary of the deadly fire that ended the siege at Waco." - Wikipedia

tim maguire said...

"In the government’s eyes, the Branch Davidians were a threat."

No, that's not quite right. They weren't seen as a threat, their deaths were seen as useful.

As, indeed, they were.

garage mahal said...

I would jump into a fire in order to escape reading something written by Malcolm Gladwell.

Mark Jones said...

If anyone ever had doubts that our federal government could be as brutal and lawless as any banana republic, Waco laid those doubts to rest for anyone willing to actually look at the evidence. From beginning to end, this whole incident was an exercise in arrogant lawlessness, from the original unjustified armed raid (in which several BATF thugs rightfully died) to the murder of the Branch Davidians for the capital crime of embarrassing the US government and daring to fight back. I wish I believed in hell so I could take some comfort in knowing the bastards responsible will burn there for eternity.

AJ Lynch said...

WACO means What A Cook Out! [old joke that went around back then].

Rumpletweezer said...

Nothing that Koresh did justifies what the government did to the children inside the compound. It should have been treated, ultimately, as a hostage situation. Janet Reno and others should have gone to jail for it.

The Crack Emcee said...

"The bureau trained spotlights on the property and set up giant speakers that blasted noise day and night—the sound of 'rabbits being killed, warped-up music, Nancy Sinatra singing "These Boots Are Made for Walking," Tibetan monks chanting, Christmas carols, telephones ringing, reveille…

I would so much love to be a part of their sound design team,...

Bob Boyd said...

What's the reason most Branch Davidians finally left the cult?

Burn out.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

Seventy-six men, women and children had to die. Because guns.

MadisonMan said...

More importantly, how does this effect Hillary!!!'s election chances?

eric said...

This was racism straight up.

The first black President didn't like this white boy getting power for himself.

garage mahal said...

Thanks, Obama.

SJ said...

@ralph hyatt,

I think three separate video cameras intended to record the events of that final day had strange malfunctions.

And a still camera disappeared from a table in a room full of Federal agents.

In case anyone doesn't understand why I find the section quoted above a little odd...

Undercover agents were able to walk up to the door of the compound, ask to talk to Koresh about guns, and see him.

They went to the gun range together.

The Undercover Agents and Koresh compared guns, talked, investigated AR-15s, target-shot with them. And then Koresh and one other man from the compound were given a chance to shoot pistols brought by the Agents.

If the Agents were able to talk to Koresh under those circumstances, and trusted him enough to swap guns with him and target-shoot together...why did they have to bring more than 100 men with military-style equipment to attack the compound?

If Koresh did contact the ATF and offer to let them look at his firearms, why did the ATF not take advantage of that opportunity?

In what way was the set of actions that ended in an inferno and many deaths less criminal than the actions of the non-Government-employees who burlged the Watergate hotel for the Nixon campaign?

Why did the various Civil Liberties organizations not attempt to shame the Feds for acting in ways that resulted in so many deaths?

Ralph Hyatt said...

I remember a scene from the made for tv propaganda, I mean movie. Koresh and some other guy from the church went to visit a former church member in some other town, at the guys workplace, a used book store I think.

This was made to look very menacing with the implication that Koresh was being threatening. Somehow.

But even back then, when I was an atheist, I thought that a religious leader going to visit someone who has left the church and trying to convince him to return to the congregation is not necessarily sinister. Ministers in mainstream congregations do that all the time.

Scott said...

Government is God to a progressive fascist. To say that a human manifestation of progressivism is wrong is like saying Christ is wrong.

That's why Janet Reno wasn't fired, and Eric Holder will never be.

Patrick said...

Garage, I also find Gladwell annoying, but this article is pretty good. Even if you don't agree with the ultimate point of view, it's quite interesting.

JMO, but it's well worth the read (and not to long).

alan markus said...

It's good to know that when reviewing events that happened over 20 years ago, Bush can be blamed.

We're All Branch Davidians Now

The Democrats, home of America’s center-left, oversaw this exceedingly important event in the development of the police state. Unsurprisingly, every respectable liberal defended the government and believed Clinton’s people when they demonized the Davidians. The entire respectable right went along with the bloodletting, too. Why wouldn’t they? It was a raid planned by George H.W. Bush’s ATF, carried out by the Clintonistas, and ultimately rubberstamped by the Republicans in Congress, and so everyone could get behind it. Some libertarians wavered, including Randians and other proponents of violent national secularism, and much of the radical left went limp too.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Ha ha, so witty Garage!

Children being burned alive is such great fun!

You fat piece of shit. I hope you get aggressively metastasizing cancer.

garage mahal said...

Who is President Moms-Jeans/David Koresh favorite musician?

Charo.

FleetUSA said...

If you go back to the timeline of the incident you will see that BC was on the ropes for a number of policy decisions that made him look weak. IMO JReno (and others?) decided that stomping down on these renegades would strengthen his public image. They didn't realize it would end in a conflagration.

Quaestor said...

Janet Reno made an appearance on Saturday Night Live on 20 January 2001, almost seven years after the massacre she orchestrated.

Evidently Idi Amin was booked that weekend.

Hagar said...

Waco was a BATF show all the way.

That agency should have been abolished a long time ago.

Quaestor said...

[Reno] decided that stomping down on these renegades would strengthen [Clinton's] public image...

Makes one wonder what kind of bloodbath Obama's image mongers have in store.

Revenant said...

That Janet Reno wasn't fired for the incompetence at Waco is still stunning.

True, but the bigger travesty is that none of the law enforcement personnel were prosecuted for their actions.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Pity it wasn't your brat roasted garage.

Thankfully her mother was smart enough to leave you and get her away from you before she could be fully indoctrinated in your leftwing cult of Obama worship and statism.

Pogo is Dead said...

I have to agree with Garage here.

If it's Gladwell, I ain't reading.
He's Captain Obvious of recycled insights.

As for making fun, shit, what else is there to do?

Drudge just wrote about some New Mexico crazy man illegally camping, gunned down as he turned away from the cops.

The cops can do anything they want. All shootings are justified.
Waco was just the start of blatant State-sanctioned murder.

At least in the past they used to fake discretion.

garage mahal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Quaestor said...

Janet Reno had a history in Florida before she was AG.

Androgenous spinsters are such staunch champions of children, aren't they?

The withered bitch also destroyed the health and peace of mind of the a poor simpleton called Richard Jewell, remember him? Thanks to sovereign immunity Reno got off scot free.

TJIC said...

@SteveR

> Janet Reno should have lost her job.

"job"?

You misspelled "life".

Murdering that many people should have resulted in a long drop.

garage mahal said...

@President Moms-Jeans

In all seriousness, I don't wish death on you. Not at all. I just hope you find some work. It's got to be frustrating.

Beta Rube said...

I recall that Clinton was criticized for not deploying tanks to Somalia, not wanting to look too aggressive. Which meant nothing was available when the whole Blackhawk Down incident took place.

Janet, on the other hand, had no qualms about sending in a tank to deal with American women and children.

Hagar said...

I don't think it was Reno. I think someone in the White House - quite possibly Hillary! - called Bill Webster and asked WTF he thought he was doing and to put an end to this or else.
And then he was fired anyway.

mishu said...

"The bureau trained spotlights on the property and set up giant speakers that blasted noise day and night—the sound of 'rabbits being killed, warped-up music, Nancy Sinatra singing "These Boots Are Made for Walking," Tibetan monks chanting, Christmas carols, telephones ringing, reveille…

Then one administration later, the democrats are screaming this is torture. That's why I hate them so.

mishu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

:I don't know about the rest of you, but having had my share of run-ins with the FBI and the TSA, I will show them no quarter if they end up in my sights.

Julie C said...

Our government truly has run amok.

I just read recently about a mother who was called to school to comfort her kid, who has Aspbergers. She was buzzed in, since the office knew her, and she hurried immediately to the classroom. She forgot, in her haste, to sign the log book.

The staff called the cops and put the school on lockdown because she hadn't signed in. Four cops came and arrested her (in front of her traumatized child).

I realize its not the same as Waco, but it's all related. Any government fool will do what they want and tough shit for you.

chickenlittle said...

Thanks to sovereign immunity Reno got off scot free.

Reno did seem to have a sort of immunity from any sort of responsibility. Hmmm.

David said...

mccullough said...
That Janet Reno wasn't fired for the incompetence at Waco is still stunning.


Not in the least, when you realize that only she could credibly tell the public just how much Bill Clinton was involved in the tactical decision making regarding the raid. To her everlasting shame (a shame far greater even than her terrible judgment in leadership of the process) she chose to trade her silence for a secure long tenure as attorney general.

buwaya said...

Charo was a very, very fine guitarist, Spanish style.
Look in youtube and you will see some outstanding performances.
Not quite Andres Segovia or Paco de Lucia, but few are.

Heck, Andres Segovia was HER TEACHER.

alan markus said...

Weird day following this post about people burned as a consequence of government action and then having this poke me in the eye every time I click on the Drudge Report:

Aborted babies incinerated to heat UK hospitals
The remains of more than 15,000 babies were incinerated as 'clinical waste' by hospitals in Britain with some used in 'waste to energy' plants


I guess it's good though - abortion, socialized medicine, health care cost-savings & it's a "green" initiative too.

David said...

garage mahal said...
I would jump into a fire in order to escape reading something written by Malcolm Gladwell.


Tasteless, Garage.

Do you ever see that fire? I did. It was live on TV as I recall. It was quite clear what a terrible thing was happening. Some of the people I was watching with started to cry. Rightly so.

Pogo is Dead said...

Again I'll defend Garage's dark humor here.

Yes, the Waco government murders were awful. No one argues otherwise.

But we're talking Malcom Gladwell here. Shit, if the gubmint broadcast his reading of blink outside my house, I would start the fire myself.

Alex said...

This gets to the mentality of liberals. They see Christians + guns = mount a violent assault. That's they're simple equation.

Joshua Barker said...

Those who follow the father of lies have always been Baal worshipers... murdering and burning children alive have been in their genes since the foundation...

avwh said...

"The bureau trained spotlights on the property and set up giant speakers that blasted noise day and night—the sound of 'rabbits being killed, warped-up music, Nancy Sinatra singing "These Boots Are Made for Walking," Tibetan monks chanting, Christmas carols, telephones ringing, reveille…

Then one administration later, the democrats are screaming this is torture. That's why I hate them so."

It's even worse than that. These were US citizens, women & children they incinerated after using psychological warfare.

When the next Admin used psychological warfare on enemy combatants, the Dems said that was torture.

It is inconceivable now, looking back on it, that Reno wasn't prosecuted and that Clinton served two full terms. They literally got away with murder.

Quaestor said...

Weird day following this post about people burned as a consequence of government action...

I guess it's good for us the Nazis never hit on this expedient. All that thermal energy wasted by the SS in Auschwitz, when it could have been used to help build tanks and stuff.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

In all seriousness, I do wish a slow and painful death on you bitchtits, you are too stupid to live amongst the general public.

And thanks for the job concern from the always claiming to be rich with no education fatass of Althouse. I do wish that I could be as shiftless and lazy as a union worker, law school professor, or lawnboy who fucks old shrews for a mealticket.

Some of us have to work to support the "right" to Obamacare and the obesity related costs you impose on us, fatboy.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Think of the bright side bitchtits, if you get cancer and have chemo, maybe you will not be so disgustingly overweight anymore.

harrogate said...

President Mom-Jeans shows his warm & fuzzy side. Knew he had one.

Mt.Everest said...

A typical day in the Althouse comments section. How did it get this bad this quickly from the time she turned off comments until now?

madAsHell said...

are being armed to the teeth with vast ammunition stores

Have you tried buying ammunition? It's difficult to find 9mm, or .45 in FMJ, but you can find hollow points at thrice the price of FMJ.

garage mahal said...

Some of us have to work to support the "right" to Obamacare

Like a dog that returns to his vomit is a fool who repeats his folly.

You see, I'm much better at this than you are. In fact I'm much better at everything than you are. That's just life. Now if you came to me looking for help or advice on how to turn around your miserable life, I would gladly try to help. You might actually score with chicks and find that job you so desperately need. I'm here. Holler! There's a better way.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Nothing brings out the warm and fuzzy like scoffing at children being burnt alive by their government.

And by all means Garage, oh ye of the failed marriage and jello physique, please enlighten me on how to be successful with the ladies.

Michael K said...

" In fact I'm much better at everything than you are."

And your messiah is better at speech writing, policy matters and reading TelePrompters

Deirdre Mundy said...

What I found interesting about the article, especially in light of all the Obamacare suits and the wedding cake court cases, is that it highlights how the Federal Government, or perhaps the Left,is unable to empathize with religious people.

So, they can't accept that Koresh wants to argue theology, not blow things up. They can't accept that the people aren't hostages.

They can't accept that the Little Sisters of the Poor see purchasing contraception as a mortal sin, as something they'd rather die than commit, since to choose sin is to choose ETERNAL death. (I.e. Hell)

They can't accept that, for a baker of a certain persuasion, participating in a gay wedding is a violation of conscience. (Because, remember, the baker doesn't just bake the cake and say 'come and get it at 3'- in a wedding situation, the baker also has to attend the reception and serve the cake there.)

While they would kick and scream about being forced to drink non-fair trade coffee because they have strongly held beliefs about workers' rights, they can't understand why someone with DIFFERENT strongly held beliefs would refuse to violate them. They're like the autistic kid who can't complete this challenge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally%E2%80%93Anne_test

They can't understand that someone else might truly believe something that they themselves 'know to be false.'

Anyway, I think the ATF actions in this article also shed light on the healthcare and gay marriage debates. The Left doesn't even know how to start a conversation with someone of a different theology.....

Deirdre Mundy said...

Hey! Maybe we can have two posts for every article from here on out- one for people who actually want to discuss things, and one for people who want to fling insults at each other!

PB Reader said...

Janet Reno should have lost more than her job. She should have lost her freedom and had to serve time.

Criminally negligent. People died needlessly.

garage mahal said...

please enlighten me on how to be successful with the ladies.

Okay, here is where you're falling short in two critical areas that must be addressed. We can get to your lack of money, looks, etc at a later time. Remember, there is always somebody for you!

1. Stop obsessing over the physiques of men. [say something nice about a female instead. Duh.]

2. Stop wishing death on people. [ladies like funny men who make them laugh, it makes them feel at ease.]

EMD said...

A typical day in the Althouse comments section. How did it get this bad this quickly from the time she turned off comments until now?

Fuck off, Everest.


/snark

William said...

Remember MOVE in Philadelphia. There was a similar stand off and similar cataclysmic resolution. If I remember right, the police burned down a couple of square blocks. The informed, liberal position was that this debacle only happened because there were black people involved. (MOVE was some kind of black cult.). At the very least Waco shows that when it comes to overreaction, you don't have to be black to get brutalized.....I think the ATF obviously fucked up, but you've got to lay most of the blame on Koresh. It's easy to overreact when dealing with a madman.

Birches said...

Wow. I just finished the article. I'm young, so I only knew about what I saw on the TV back then (evil child molester David Koresh---dumb cult).

I agree with Deirdre. The government didn't understand their religion.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Garage's simple steps to paying alimony and having his children taken away.

Or alternately titled, The Barely Graduated High School Guide to Internet Projection.

Back to the topic at hand, I am glad to see the Waco criminality brought up again. Another of the great Clinton accomplishments that Cankles would prefer people not to remember.

MadisonMan said...

I am curious: What is the sound of a rabbit being killed?

A shotgun? A high-pitched rabbit squeal?

Birches said...

I am curious: What is the sound of a rabbit being killed?

A shotgun? A high-pitched rabbit squeal?


I wondered the same thing.

garage mahal said...

Garage's simple steps to paying alimony and having his children taken away.

3. Stop pretending to be a lawyer! Alimony and child support are two fundamentally different things. Especially in the eyes of the IRS. Further, I would refrain from offering any legal advice to anyone. Male or female. Sigh. We have a lot of work to do I see.

elkh1 said...

"In the government’s eyes, the Branch Davidians were a threat."

In the IRS’s eyes, the Tea Partiers were a threat.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

I'm just glad the federal government didn't have to send in stormtroopers to rescue your ex wife and daughter. Is that why you hate Walker so much? Was he Governor when they made their escape?

And of course you wouldn't offer legal advice bitchtits, even Wisconsin requires a level of education beyond K-12 to practice law.

garage mahal said...

I'm just glad the federal government didn't have to send in stormtroopers to rescue your ex wife and daughter

The daughters that live with me? LOL. You've GOT to stop with this fake lawyer shit dude.

Skyler said...

I'm still sickened that this happened in our country and no one was lynched for it.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

I finally got around to reading the Gladwell article. I had never heard of him before today. I found it restrained, informative, and well-written.

However, there is one salient fact that he omitted, possibly considering it irrelevant-- but I don't. Was any evidence ever produced that the Davidians actually were producing automatic weapons? Did it turn out that, not only was the ATF reaction unbelievably excessive, but that it was based on falsehood from the outset?

This is the same treatment meted out to Randy Weaver. The Feds attempted to use a trumped-up weapons charge to force Weaver to snitch on the Aryan Brotherhood, of which he claimed not to be a member. Weaver was misinformed of a trial date, being told it was on the 20th when it was on the 19th, but he was charged with failure to appear anyway. ATF and FBI mounted a siege of Weaver's home, murdering his wife and son. When he was eventually tried he was acquitted of all charges but two, and one of those was set aside. Ironically, that one charge was failure to appear. He was found not guilty of the alleged crime that started this disaster rolling.

James Pawlak said...

This was a demonstration of the Federal government's ability and willingness to murder women and children to demonstrate that those who oppose it will be at risk for the same. A simple phone call or a low level service of papers might had done the job.

This was a large scale act of tyranny as was the "Ruby Ridge" affair.

Revenant said...

Most people have forgotten how lawless the Clinton administration was. They began with the Travel Office and went on the the Hillary secret committee and Elian Gonzales, Ruby Ridge and then Waco.

Your timeline is off. The Ruby Ridge shootout occurred in 1992, when Bush was President.

Revenant said...

Was any evidence ever produced that the Davidians actually were producing automatic weapons?

Not that it excuses the government's behavior in any way, but yes. Several of the survivors were convicted on weapons charges stemming from semi-automatic rifles that had been modified for automatic fire.

Ralph Hyatt said...

"Not that it excuses the government's behavior in any way, but yes. Several of the survivors were convicted on weapons charges stemming from semi-automatic rifles that had been modified for automatic fire."

And Koresh was having sex with minors. Arresting him was perfectly legitimate. The issue is the total botch that the U.S. government made of the whole thing.

The U.S. government incinerated 70 odd people, 1/3 of whom were children. Because the ATF was worried that congress was going to cut their budget. And no one was ever held accountable.

David said...

Hagar said...
I don't think it was Reno. I think someone in the White House - quite possibly Hillary! - called Bill Webster and asked WTF he thought he was doing and to put an end to this or else.
And then he was fired anyway.


There we go. Someone is starting to remember.

"The White House and the FBI want this ended NOW!"

Nice prescription for moderation, eh.

Mark O said...

Why do Democrat President appoint mannish women? Why do they marry them?

Michael K said...

"Why do Democrat President appoint mannish women? Why do they marry them?"

You need a least one set of testicles in a marriage and in an administration. We see how it works out when they are absent.

CWJ said...

Perceived threats get attacked by an ATF tank and are burned to the ground.

Real threats wander around until they get the chance to blow up the finish line of the Boston Marathon.

I'm still waiting to see a high profile government siege which stops a real threat more dangerous than Elean Gonzalez.

CWJ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Iapetus said...

"I am curious: What is the sound of a rabbit being killed? A shotgun? A high-pitched rabbit squeal?"

My wife's pet rabbit once got his head caught between the narrow bars of a pet gate that limited him to the back porch and kept him out of the house. He started shrieking like crazy and kept up his high pitch scream until I was able to bend the bars apart to free him. It was the only sound he ever made in the 13 years he lived with us. I was more freaked out by his "death-scream" than he was.

Kirk Parker said...

Michael K.,

"Ruby Ridge "

No, no... oh no, don't fall for that one!

Ruby Ridge, as thoroughly evil as it was, happened on GHWB's watch. It still galls me (and forever will) that Horiuchi is not doing a life sentence, with some of the higher-ups that approved the ROE's as cellmates.


Julie,

I would love (sorry, in the rallying-the-troops sense) to pass that story around. Got a link?

Kirk Parker said...

"you can find hollow points at thrice the price of FMJ. "

Hasn't that always been the ratio?

Kirk Parker said...

MadMan,

As someone who has raised rabbits, yes: a loud, high-pitched squealing.


Tyrone @ 5:53pm,

You're basically right on all counts there. Though I wouldn't call the charge against Weaver 'trumped-up', I'd go all the way to 'entrapment'.


Rusty said...

..I think the ATF obviously fucked up, but you've got to lay most of the blame on Koresh. It's easy to overreact when dealing with a madman.

No. The blame rests entirely on the BATF and the FBI.
They were supposed to be in control. No one in that compound had anywhere to go but out if the people in control acted responsibly. They didn't.

Brando said...

Sadly this is just one of the more well-publicized cases of law enforcement using a combination of incompetence and heavy-handedness that resulted in needless tragedy. But this likely goes on all the time in police departments around the country.

Surely we should be able to expect better from our leaders. Liberals can shrug it off when the victims are religious extremists or white supremacists, and conservatives can shrug it off when the victims are urban minorities or are involved with drugs, but it really could be any of us one of these days.

I know Reno didn't step down over that--as a Clintonite, they can never take actual blame or consequences for anything--but couldn't they can the head of the FBI or ATF? Was there just not enough pressure from the public?

Jim Bullock said...

"Thanks to sovereign immunity Reno got off scot free."

"Sovereign immunity" seems to make responsibility for bad behavior go away, vs. latch on somewhere more appropriate. Some manifestation of the state is responsible, so no one is.

Here's a thought experiment. What if "sovereign immunity" worked by having responsibility for a possible crime remain personal, but climb up the chain of authority, vs. go away.

For example, in Waco the BATF agents go full Dogs of War on a compound of religious oddballs. *If* the agents are absolved, their supervisor is on the hook, personally. *If* the supervisor is absolved, the next higher authority is on the hook. Then the regional command. Then the department / division. Then BATF. Then DoJ. Then the President.

In order to claim protection under "ratcheting immunity" the accused has to make the case that s/he was "just following orders" and compelled / required / directed to do what they did. If successful, the same case regarding facts and outcomes attaches.

The idea that authorities are responsible for what they direct, require, or allow isn't new. As I recall some people who never gassed anyone were put on trial in Germany.

In the end it's stupid laws, and lack of oversight playing out while the legislature all play Nero. I have this picture in my head of an entire legislature standing silent while charges and a verdict are read, victims present, of course on prime time TV.

donald said...

Richard Jewell was a police officer in Senoia for a time.

I got to know Richard a little. I think you're calling the wrong guy a seton Quaester. Might wanna look in mirror.

Now, was Richard a sap? Did he believe in right and wrong? Oh yeah.

RIP Richard, go fuck yourself Quaester.

donald said...

Oh, and you too you fat fuck. It wouldn't be fair for your family to suffer for your craven venality, you on the other hand...