February 25, 2014

"Incredibly, the loud-mouthed bragging, insulting youngster had been telling the truth all along."

Wrote the NYT, describing the fight that took place 50 years ago today:
Cassius Clay won the world heavyweight title tonight when a bleeding Sonny Liston, his left shoulder injured, was unable to answer the bell for the seventh round.

Immediately after he had been announced as the new heavyweight champion of the world, Clay yelled to the newsmen covering the fight: "Eat your words." Only three of 46 sports writers covering the fight had picked him to win....

The fight was Clay's from the start. The tall, swift youngster, his hands carelessly low, backed away from Liston's jabs, circled around Liston's dangerous left hook and opened a nasty gash under Liston's left eye....

But the kid hadn't lied. All those interminable refrains of "float like a butterfly, sting like a bee," had been more than foolish songs....
The youngster... the kid....
For weeks, Clay had played the fool and been tagged at will by unworthy sparring partners. This morning, at the weigh-in, he had acted bizarre and disturbed.

And tonight, he had been cool and fast and without fear....

Poetry and youth and joy had triumphed over the 8-1 odds. And until it had happened (and perhaps until they can look it up) people laughed at the thought that a night like this could happen.

The crowd had cheered lustily at 9:59 P.M., when Cassius came jogging down the aisle toward the ring, his face impassive, wearing a hip-length terry-cloth white robe on which was emblazoned, The Lip. Nobody even snickered, for everyone knew Clay to be a braggart, not to taken seriously....

Earlier, rumors had swept Convention Hall that Cassius was not going to show, that the thin line of hysteria he had trod during the morning weigh-in has become full-scale fear...
ADDED: Wikipedia has a good article "Muhammad Ali vs. Sonny Liston," about the 2 fights between these men. As for the first fight, the one that was 50 years ago today:
The brash Clay was equally disliked by reporters and his chances were widely dismissed. Lester Bromberg's forecast in the New York World-Telegram was typical, predicting that "It will last longer than the Patterson fight—almost the entire first round". The Los Angeles Times' Jim Murray observed, "The only thing at which Clay can beat Liston is reading the dictionary", adding that the face-off between the two unlikeable athletes would be "the most popular fight since Hitler and Stalin—180 million Americans rooting for a double knockout". The New York Times' regular boxing writer Joe Nichols declined to cover the fight, assuming that it would be a mismatch...

Liston trained minimally for the bout, convinced that he would dispose of Clay within the first two rounds. He typically ran just one mile a day, instead of his usual five, reportedly ate hot dogs and drank beer, and was rumored to have been furnished with prostitutes in training camp.

The television series I've Got a Secret did multiple segments about the title fight. Panelists Bill Cullen, Henry Morgan and Betsy Palmer predicted that Liston would win in the third, second, and first rounds, respectively. Host Garry Moore was even more pessimistic about Clay's chances, estimating a Liston knockout "in the very early moments of round one", adding, "if I were Cassius, I would catch a cab and leave town". Actor Hal March went a step further: "I think the fight will end in the dressing room. I think [Clay] is going to faint before he comes out." 
After the fight:
Sensing that he had made history, Clay quickly ran to the ropes amidst the commotion in the ring and shouted at sportswriters, "eat your words!" In a scene that has been rebroadcast countless times over the ensuing decades, Clay repeatedly yelled "I'm the greatest!" and "I shook up the world."

Clay had to be persuaded to hold the traditional post-fight press conference. He called the writers "hypocrites" and said, "look at me. Not a mark on me. I could never be an underdog. I am too great. Hail the champion!" The day after the fight, Clay announced that he was changing his name to Cassius X, but then he was given by Elijah Muhammad the name Muhammad Ali the following week.
It was the rematch where Ali knocked out Liston in the first round — watch it here — with a punch that many people thought was nonexistent:
Midway through the first round, Liston fell to the canvas, then seemingly struggled to his knees only to roll over on to his back. Few of the attendees saw Ali deliver a knockout punch. The fight quickly descended into chaos. Referee Jersey Joe Walcott, a former world heavyweight champion himself, appeared confused after Ali refused to retreat to a neutral corner. Ali initially stood over his fallen opponent, gesturing and yelling at him, "Get up and fight, sucker!"...

The blow that ended the match became known as "the phantom punch", so named because most people at ringside did not see it. Ali called it the "anchor punch" and claimed it was taught to him by the Hollywood actor Stepin Fetchit, who had learned it from Jack Johnson. However, Ali himself was unsure immediately after the fight as to whether or not the punch connected, as footage from the event shows Ali asking his entourage "Did I hit him?"

138 comments:

PB Reader said...

The FBI thinks the fight was fixed.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/24/was-rigged-by-mob/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS

At 8-1 odds, the payday must have been huge.

St. George said...

Here are the texts of Ali's 1964 and 1975 Playboy interviews.

Clay/Ali was opposed to integration...thought Christianity meant slavery for blacks...thought black men should not date white women...did not trust white people and saw no reason to...said "America's going to be destroyed! Allah's going to divinely chastise America! America's going to pay" (p. 100)...white people are "crazy" (p. 101)....Muslim women must obey men....'Put a hand on a Muslim woman are you are to die" (p. 105)....Then the interviewer asks what should happen to a Muslim woman if she merely goes out with a non-Muslim. "Kill her," says Ali. (p. 105)

He sounds like a member of al-Qaeda. The quotes about "killing" Muslim men and Christian men who dare date Muslim women are from 1975, long after his conversion to Islam in 1964.

I can't think of another celebrity who has gotten such an incredible free pass from the media, then and now.

Amexpat said...

The FBI thinks the fight was fixed.
So does James Ellroy. Doesn't make it true.

Big Mike said...

Considering that he won his Olympic gold medal as a light heavyweight and was going up against a true heavyweight, it's little surprise that so few picked him to win.

The Crack Emcee said...

St. George,

"I can't think of another celebrity who has gotten such an incredible free pass from the media, then and now."

I can't think of another race so fixated on "getting" blacks, past or present.

This is the same crap whites pull on Malcolm X - pull out some bullshit from in the heat of the Civil Rights struggle and pretend whites own behavior didn't initiate all kinds of hateful responses in blacks.

"He sounds like a member of al-Qaeda."


Well, white people looked and acted like Nazis, why aren't you more pissed about that? Why doesn't that even enter your mind? It's because you're racist.

I especially like "Clay/Ali thought Christianity meant slavery for blacks"

This is a crime? You're a fool.

Whites are the only group in America getting a "free pass" on anything.

Shit, they print them,...

traditionalguy said...

The same guys who had JFK killed fixed Cassius Clay's title fight.
But Jackie Kennedy and Cassius Clay were both bystanders to the events.

No wonder Clay turned to the powerful words of Nation of Islam. The Muslims do offer a certain standard that one can hold onto in a world at war with unseen forces. And no one called Muhammed Ali boy anymore like they had the young black man growing up in Kentucky.

The Crack Emcee said...

traditional guy,

"No wonder Clay turned to the powerful words of Nation of Islam."

There's a theory many Africans survived the slave trade because those who were Muslims, at least, had a foundation for understanding one another, even if they had no idea what tribes they were from,...

The Crack Emcee said...

BTW - I can see where "Incredibly, the loud-mouthed bragging, insulting youngster had been telling the truth all along." - works in other context's as well.

I'm thinking about Kanye West but,...


St. George said...

So...Crack...in 1975, Ali thought black women should be killed, in other words, justifiably murdered for daring to have a date with a man outside their religion.

That is very sick...and evil.

That's what a villager in rural Afghanistan might think.

Humperdink said...

This thread is off to an inauspicious start. Time for me to move on (already).

Jay said...

Then the interviewer asks what should happen to a Muslim woman if she merely goes out with a non-Muslim. "Kill her," says Ali.

It is, a religion of peace, remember.

elkh1 said...

the youngster, the kid, the boy

The Crack Emcee said...

St. George,

"So...Crack...in 1975, Ali thought black women should be killed, in other words, justifiably murdered for daring to have a date with a man outside their religion."


I started high school in 1976. First day, I'm seated between two white boys who start this dialogue:

"Hey!"

"Yeah?"

"You like niggers?"

"Yeah - I think everybody should own one."

Needless to say, I was suspended on my first day at a white school, for making two assholes eat a desk and chair.

But you'll twist the whole attacker/victim scenario around to make it convenient, for you, to think black's REACTIONS to white's history of racism constitutes evil itself?

You should really study cognitive dissonance because you've got it bad,...



Ann Althouse said...

"I can't think of another celebrity who has gotten such an incredible free pass from the media, then and now."

As you can see from the NYT article I quoted, up until he beat Liston, the press was disrespectful. His bragging and trash talking was considered poor sportsmanship

madAsHell said...

I'm thinking about Kanye West but,...

I can't believe you're reading the tabloids.

Meade said...

"I'm thinking about Kanye West but,..."

And I'm thinking about The Crack Emcee but...

The Crack Emcee said...

Hey, St. George, here's an idea:


You think - since blacks were denied an education or then mostly offered substandard ones by whites - whites can cut us a little slack for making mistakes while finding our way without them?

I mean, whites came up with some pretty "evil" ideas, and they didn't have anybody oppressing them, they weren't fighting for freedom, or nothing - best educations around - and they still turned to enjoying torturing people and the money they got from it.

Why THAT's not the focus of your studies and ire - since nobody forced THEM to do any of it - says a lot,...

The Crack Emcee said...

Meade said...
"I'm thinking about Kanye West but,..."

And I'm thinking about The Crack Emcee but…


That's going to warm me for the rest of the day!

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

The New York Times' regular boxing writer Joe Nichols declined to cover the fight, assuming that it would be a mismatch...

The NYT has always been insufferable, blinded by their arrogance and wrong. The more things change the more they remain the same.

Owen said...

Crack Emcee: sorry to hear of your trouble in high school. I guess you have to drag that around forever, huh?

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

The Crack Emcee said... Meade said...

isn't schizophrenia were you talk to yourself?

RecChief said...

right behind you humperdink

SteveR said...

I'm glad to see the voice of authority showing up. Another thread gone.

traditionalguy said...

That night the radio call of the fight was played on the Fraternity House speakers while we worked on a cleaning party. The announcers went delirious in disbelief when Liston just refused to come out.

That call is seared into my memory, along with hearing the voice of an unknown young singer named Barbara Streisand.

traditionalguy said...

Correction: Barbra Streisand. She made me fall in love with her voice at hello. Too bad she went politically left.

The Crack Emcee said...

Owen said...
Crack Emcee: sorry to hear of your trouble in high school. I guess you have to drag that around forever, huh?

No, it never goes away. I got suspended. I lost time from school. I got a bad reputation. I became suspect. And for what? Because I was surrounded by white people who, scared to death, had no clue how to interpret the events and, being a foster child, I had no parental figures to defend my actions so had to accept being wrongly punished - which included in the foster home for being disciplined.

I don't know if you're making light of it, but these events, and the decisions that sprang from them affect my life everyday. Each of you think your resistance to me is an individual act but, as far as I'm concerned, you might as well be in line behind those two guys in high school because, for a significant enough number of whites, that's all they are.

People looking for trouble, and others who won't do anything about it, or those who do the wrong thing and blame me.

How whites think blacks are yet to live "normal lives" still in this country, under the level of white scrutiny we get for just existing here, is beyond me,...

The Crack Emcee said...

traditionalguy said...
"That night the radio call of the fight was played on the Fraternity House speakers while we worked on a cleaning party. The announcers went delirious in disbelief when Liston just refused to come out.

That call is seared into my memory, along with hearing the voice of an unknown young singer named Barbara Streisand."


Tg, what'd the fraternity think?

FullMoon said...

CMC said:
I started high school in 1976. First day, I'm seated between two white boys who start this dialogue:

So, you acknowledge having the same educational opportunities as whites...but then go on to say blacks were denied those opportunities?
Reminds me of watching Oprah and Denzel talk about how the black man can't get ahead 'cause white man holds him down......

Weren't no separate classrooms, bathrooms, or drinking fountains in my school Crack, how about yours?

chickenlittle said...

Polite society disdains loudmouth braggarts...for good reason.

traditionalguy said...

Crack...The rest of the guys were mildly interested, but too busy to care much about two fighters. This was before LBJ screwed up life with his Southeast Asian War and Ali refused to be drafted (that too was put down to bad sportsmanship.) Then then MLK and Bobby Kennedy were both hit within two months. After that nothing much surprised us.

William said...

There's plenty of evidence that Ali is a great fighter, but you won't find it in that fight. The only way Liston wouldn't throw a fight is if you bribed him to go the distance.......Frazier's dead. Ali's in ruins. Foreman is rich and happy. The Christian pastor has won his battle with life.

Gahrie said...

Could we just give Crack his own thread everyday, so he won't destroy the rest of them?

Amexpat said...

The same guys who had JFK killed fixed Cassius Clay's title fight.

You're reading too much James Ellroy.

tim maguire said...

And for what? Because I was surrounded by white people who, scared to death, had no clue how to interpret the events and, being a foster child, I had no parental figures to defend my actions so had to accept being wrongly punished - which included in the foster home for being disciplined.

No, because you were violent and out of control. You had an opportunity to teach some ignorant people and decided instead to confirm their biases by physically attacking them.

You were a teenager and I hate the idea that anyone can ruin their life through choices they made at that age, but they can. You made your choices. You chose, from among a number of different possibilities, to react with violence.

You weren't wrongly punished so stop feeling sorry for yourself, accept the consequences of your actions like any adult, and work to better yourself like most adults.

The Crack Emcee said...

FullMoon,

So, you acknowledge having the same educational opportunities as whites…


How can being called a nigger and getting wrongfully punished - twice - on the first day of school be considered "the same educational opportunities as whites"?

The Crack Emcee said...

Gahrie said...
Could we just give Crack his own thread everyday, so he won't destroy the rest of them?


Gahrie, you do realize - if you do this everyday - like me, you become the guy who does something every day, and it loses it's effect.

Because you're not me.

See, I'm one black guy moaning about white supremacy all around me. You're one of the white supremacists moaning about one black guy.

Doesn't look good.


I didn't comment on this thread - "Is calling a pregnant woman a "host" insulting to the woman...
... or to the unborn child?"

Go there, and be sure to wow them with your insights,...

jr565 said...

Clay/Ali was opposed to integration...thought Christianity meant slavery for blacks...thought black men should not date white women...did not trust white people and saw no reason to...said "America's going to be destroyed! Allah's going to divinely chastise America! America's going to pay" (p. 100)...white people are "crazy" (p. 101)....Muslim women must obey men....'Put a hand on a Muslim woman are you are to die" (p. 105)....Then the interviewer asks what should happen to a Muslim woman if she merely goes out with a non-Muslim. "Kill her," says Ali. (p. 105)"


Ali is and always was an asshole.

The Crack Emcee said...

tim maguire,

"You were violent and out of control. You had an opportunity to teach some ignorant people and decided instead to confirm their biases by physically attacking them."


I like how blithely you posit the idea that black parents send their kids to school, not to be educated themselves, but to endure abuse from white kids and then, for the black kids to take it upon themselves to teach whites not to do it. That's OUR job, is it? And where do whites - the instigators - fit in that scenario? Oh yeah, just like they are now, claiming they don't see race. You're insane.

This "teaching" I - a black kid - was supposed to be doing on the first day at a new white school, was that supposed to be welcomed by the two racists I was seated with?

Were the teachers expected to listen to me?

How do you, tim maguire, take the "teaching" I've been attempting lately on race? Is your attack on me now, as an adult, an example of the good humor I was going to receive as a teen?

Insults to black intelligence, like that, ought to be reparational,...

Hyphenated American said...

Crack, I assume you would prefer not to notice this...

How does it fell that a black man is better in any country with white majority, than in any country with black majority?
And also, do you think it makes sense to beat up people who practice affirmative action, or promote it?

harrogate said...

St. George wrote:

"He sounds like a member of al-Qaeda."


Crack wrote:

"Well, white people looked and acted like Nazis, why aren't you more pissed about that? Why doesn't that even enter your mind?"

This is an opportunity for St. George to think about something other than reel off the usual talking points. Will he?

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:
This is a crime? You're a fool.

Whites are the only group in America getting a "free pass" on anything.

Right, because blacks and liberals haven't been calling white males names since forever?
Calling them out on their sins just NEVER happens (that was sarcasm).
It sounds like the only one you are trying to give a free pass to is Mohammad Ali.

Hyphenated American said...

Crack, do black kids again better education in schools with majority black students? If not, explain.

jr565 said...

Hyphenated American wrote:
How does it fell that a black man is better in any country with white majority, than in any country with black majority?
And also, do you think it makes sense to beat up people who practice affirmative action, or promote it?


Not only did he fare better in this country you have a whole group of white people willing to forgive him of all his sins out of a sense of white guilt. When in fact, if they actually looked at what he had to say he'd be worse than any troglodyte Republican in existence today.

cat Stevens wishes he was so lucky.

Hyphenated American said...

Crack, did Blacks on Africa behaved like Naziis? Yes, same people who sold millions if blacks as slaves?

jeff said...

"Needless to say, I was suspended on my first day at a white school, for making two assholes eat a desk and chair." You left out the part where you killed the black girl for dating someone at that school. Was that after beating up the two rednecks?

jr565 said...

Ali "thought black men should not date white women"

What does Inga have to say about this?

Hyphenated American said...

Jr565, you are correct. But one thing going against crack is that I am a Russian Jew, who does not do guilt.

The Crack Emcee said...

"If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out that's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made. And they haven't even pulled the knife out much less heal the wound. They won't even admit the knife is there." - Malcolm X


jr565

"Clay/Ali was opposed to integration…

Ali is and always was an asshole."


And you are a never-ending project for me. I don't know why. Look, dummy:

Malcolm X, 1963:

"The white devil’s time is up."

Malcolm X, 1965

"I, for one, will join in with anyone—I don’t care what color you are—as long as you want to change this miserable condition that exists on this earth.”

But what does the white press sell to whites as "Malcolm X"?

Only the first one,...

jr565 said...

"When in fact, if they actually looked at what he had to say he'd be worse than any troglodyte Republican in existence today."
For example, I don't know too many Republicans saying that whites shouldn't marry blacks. Yet there is Mohammad Ali.
Not to many Repubs are saying they are opposed to integration. Yet there is Mohammad Ali.
I don't know too many Republicans who say a black woman should be killed if she dates a white man. Yet there goes Ali.
So fuck Mohammad Ali.

traditionalguy said...

I just saw ESPN's a B&W newsreel coverage of the "crazy Cassius" going into the fight and coming out with the win. I had never seen it before. It was all still pics in 1964.

What was amazing was seeing the same behavior in a man on man fighter planning how to beat an opponent and doing it that we saw and reacted to in Richard Sherman at the NFC Championship game.

Aggression in a black man is still knee jerk seen as "unsportsmanlike" fifty years later.

Clay believed that he was a winner, and that Liston was "overrated." The mind of a fighter has to see themselves as superior going in or he will lose. And to hell with "unsportsmanship"; Save that for your rounds of golf at the Club.

jr565 said...

Malcolm X wrote:
"If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out that's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made. And they haven't even pulled the knife out much less heal the wound. They won't even admit the knife is there." -

Ending segregation was pulling the knife out. both Malcolm and Ali were opposed to said integration in the first place.

mccullough said...

Didn't seem like anyone liked Clay/Ali or Liston, then.

Tough to say if Ali or Joe Louis was the greatest heavyweight of all time.

jr565 said...

traditional guy wrote:
Aggression in a black man is still knee jerk seen as "unsportsmanlike" fifty years later.

Unsportsmanlike is unsportsmanlike regardless of race. It wasn't just agression. Ali's treatment of Frasier was abhorrent.

The Crack Emcee said...

Hyphenated American said...
Crack, I assume you would prefer not to notice this...

How does it fell that a black man is better in any country with white majority, than in any country with black majority?
And also, do you think it makes sense to beat up people who practice affirmative action, or promote it?


Why would you assume that? (You should never assume anything). It's a tell, you know?

Knowing of the rape of black countries by whites - and including that in my assessment as (tell) you apparently are won't to do - it's not surprising to me blacks in other countries are doing terribly.

I don't think blacks should be beat up for any reason. I think AA has lost it's original purpose, which was righting wrongs against blacks, and should be brought back in line with that. Whether or not any black person decides to accept it is up to them.

The Crack Emcee said...

jr565,

Right, because blacks and liberals haven't been calling white males names since forever?


It only seems like that if you're in your 20s. Maybe 30s.

That's how skewed your perspective is,...

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:

You think - since blacks were denied an education or then mostly offered substandard ones by whites - whites can cut us a little slack for making mistakes while finding our way without them?



Blacks weren't denied an education. They were denied the same education. But that changed back in the 60's. How much slack needs to be cut at this point?
This is as old as The Beatles. If you listen to an oldies station what do you hear? Music from that era. Because it's old.

The Crack Emcee said...

Hyphenated American said...
Crack, do black kids again better education in schools with majority black students? If not, explain.

It depends. Some all-black schools provide great educations.

Being schooled with whites has inherent problems, but only because slavery complicates our lives unnecessarily, because whites "don't see race" as they ladle out the racial abuse they learned from the culture (see the kids with the noose around James Meredith's statue).

It can be confusing,...

The Crack Emcee said...

Hyphenated American said...
Crack, did Blacks on Africa behaved like Naziis? Yes, same people who sold millions if blacks as slaves?

O.K., you're becoming tiresome - and I've been over this a billion times:

Slavery as practiced by the rest of world was not America's "peculiar institution".

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:
Being schooled with whites has inherent problems, but only because slavery complicates our lives unnecessarily, because whites "don't see race" as they ladle out the racial abuse they learned from the culture (see the kids with the noose around James Meredith's statue).

When govt forced southern schools AT GUNPOINT to integrate, maybe they should have thought of these issues. Since blacks would have to be surrounded by whites when going to school.
It sounds like you don't really want too much connection to white folks. And so you probably think integration was a mistake.

Jeff with one 'f' said...

The wrestler Gorgeous George was thought to have inspired the young Clay to develop his swaggering persona early in Clay's career.

Bob Dylan also credits George as a strong inspiration!

http://www.booknoise.net/gorgeous/ali.html

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:
Slavery as practiced by the rest of world was not America's "peculiar institution".

So you're forgiving of all the other slavery in the world? Those slaves, I'm sure, would thank you for your view of their slavery as not rating consideration.

The Crack Emcee said...

mccullough said...
Didn't seem like anyone liked Clay/Ali or Liston, then.

Tough to say if Ali or Joe Louis was the greatest heavyweight of all time.


Nobody liked Liston. Whites just wanted him to shut Ali up.

William said...

George Foreman has reached old age with all his marbles and tens of millions of dollars from that dumb grill. He was never particularly popular among blacks since that time at the Olympics when he waved the American flag. It speaks poorly for blacks that you lose points for waving the flag and gain points for raping a beauty contestant......I don't knock Ali. He was entitled to his resentments, but Foreman has found more peace and less pain with his Christian faith than Ali has in that cult of his.

The Crack Emcee said...

Hyphenated American said...
I am a Russian Jew, who does not do guilt.


You also don't do black history, but don't let THAT stop you,...

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Related: Knoplfer's "Song for Sonny Liston"

The Crack Emcee said...

jr565 said...
Ali's treatment of Frasier was abhorrent.

True, but he knows it. He's looked it. I've seen it.

Ali's never run from himself like white people do,...

Revenant said...

Interesting article, PB Reader.

The Crack Emcee said...

jr565,

How much slack needs to be cut at this point?


As much as I cut Paula Dean,...

The Crack Emcee said...

jr565,

It sounds like you don't really want too much connection to white folks.

Not when they behave like you. No, jr, nobody does.

chickenlittle said...

February is almost over.

chickenlittle said...

William said...
George Foreman has reached old age with all his marbles and tens of millions of dollars from that dumb grill.

It wasn't a dumb grill. They're pretty handy for making toasted cheese around our house. And George Foreman never chewed your ear off.

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote;

Not when they behave like you. No, jr, nobody does.

YOu never met me, so you don't know how I'd treat you in person. My guess though is you'd treat me a certain way if I was sitting next to you because some unknown white guy who has no relation to me mistreated you when you were in school.
I got mugged a few times by black kids when I was was in grade school. Should I view you as a mugger because of that?

The Crack Emcee said...

William,

"He was never particularly popular among blacks since that time at the Olympics when he waved the American flag. It speaks poorly for blacks that you lose points for waving the flag,…"


First, with the history of this country, it's no shame to blacks how any of us feel about this country - it's a shame on whites they made such a fuck of the country when they had control of it.

Second, Forman wasn't hated by blacks for the Olympics. It was the Rumble In The Jungle, when Forman was seen in Liston's role - "fighting for the white man" - that blacks, world-wide, chose Ali over Forman as their champion.

And George is loved by the black community BTW.

Events change,...

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:
Events change,...

Wow, thats a shock coming from you. You might want to take such wisdom into consideration in your interaction with white people.

The Crack Emcee said...

jr565,

YOu never met me, so you don't know how I'd treat you in person. My guess though is you'd treat me a certain way if I was sitting next to you because some unknown white guy who has no relation to me mistreated you when you were in school.


You're a joke, jr.

I figure, in person, every one here is probably the nicest person you ever want to meet. Except for the occasional stupid comment that would eventually compel me to excuse myself without a word. That's how it is in the real world, for me.

Online? I told you:

I'm as sick as you are,...

Revenant said...

Foreman has found more peace and less pain with his Christian faith than Ali has in that cult of his.

Ali left the Nation of Islam in the 1970s.

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:
You're a joke, jr.

I figure, in person, every one here is probably the nicest person you ever want to meet. Except for the occasional stupid comment that would eventually compel me to excuse myself without a word. That's how it is in the real world, for me.

Do you hide your feelings from whites when you see them in person, or do you call them racists to their face when they say "hi".

The Crack Emcee said...

jr565 said...
Crack Emcee wrote:
Events change,...

Wow, thats a shock coming from you. You might want to take such wisdom into consideration in your interaction with white people.


When they decide to be as mature as blacks are about race, I will, but if you're any example of where we are in that, I won't hold my breath,...

Civilis said...

I don't think blacks should be beat up for any reason. I think AA has lost it's original purpose, which was righting wrongs against blacks, and should be brought back in line with that. Whether or not any black person decides to accept it is up to them.

Suffering and misery persist and grow when we see people not as individuals but as groups, and no group's delineation is more stark than "us" and "them". Any harm to "us" by "them" must earn a restitution from "them", even if the "them" and "us" in the restitution are completely disconnected from the "them" and "us" in the original harm.

In this myopic worldview "us" against "us" and "them" against "them" conflicts don't matter.

In CE's worldview, Oprah and Ali are "us", and thus always to be sided with against "them". Therefore, Affirmative Action is owed to "us", even those that have no need for it (like Oprah), and is owed by "them", even those with no connection to the harms of the past AA is supposed to rectify. We all have ancestors that were oppressors and opressees, and when we forget we are "we" and divide into "us" and "them", "we" all lose.

The Crack Emcee said...

jr565,

Do you hide your feelings from whites when you see them in person, or do you call them racists to their face when they say "hi".

Depends on the whites - but I've been known to do both.

My white friends aren't assholes, so I'm real with them,..

The Crack Emcee said...

chickenlittle said...

"George Foreman never chewed your ear off."

Meeting the white requirement for acceptance.

Good one, chick.

Big Mike said...

When they decide to be as mature as blacks are about race, I will, but if you're any example of where we are in that, I won't hold my breath.

The point being, my friend, that it is you who are utterly immature about race. Now grow up. It ain't all about you, so stop whining and get on with your life.

The Crack Emcee said...

Civilis,

In CE's worldview, Oprah and Ali are "us", and thus always to be sided with against "them". Therefore, Affirmative Action is owed to "us", even those that have no need for it (like Oprah), and is owed by "them",…


You ignored me saying whether any black wants to take it is up to them.

Also, how does reaching success - in spite of racist obstacles - equal a crime not being committed that someone is "owed" for?

Did Oprah being rich make the crime of slavery go away?

Did Oprah being rich erase Jim Crow?

Did Oprah being rich mean her family didn't work for other's wealth?

White people think weird thoughts,...

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:
Depends on the whites - but I've been known to do both.

My white friends aren't assholes, so I'm real with them,..

It depends on the whites? Ah so its based on individuals and not based on groups? Apply that thinking to whites when it comes to racial issues in general, and you'll realize the flaw in your thinking.
Some whites would put a noose around a statue. Just because those INDIVIDUALS would do so doesn't mean that you get to indict all whites for those two individual actions.

Gahrie said...


But what does the white press sell to whites as "Malcolm X"?

Only the first one,...


Hey give us some slack.....you Black people murdered him because he changed his mind about "evil Whitey"......

Revenant said...

It ain't all about you, so stop whining and get on with your life.

You must be new here. Whining about how everything wrong in his life is somebody else's fault has always Crack's defining characteristic.

The switch from blaming New Age for everything to blaming white people for everything is new, but the content is the same. I think maybe he just runs a search and replace on his old posts. :)

Gahrie said...

Did Oprah being rich make the crime of slavery go away?

No the Civil War and the death of hundreds of thousands of White people did that.

Did Oprah being rich erase Jim Crow?

Nope..the Civil Rights laws of the 1960's did that.

Did Oprah being rich mean her family didn't work for other's wealth?

Hell we all do that...that is the way labor/the free market works.

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:
Did Oprah being rich make the crime of slavery go away?

Did Oprah being rich erase Jim Crow?
Would ending slavery make the crime of slavery go away? Would ending Jim Crow erase Jim Crow? All I can say to you is that both of those are ended. What more are you expecting society to do? SHould reparations include a decades worth of psychiatrist appointments?
You sound like a woman who gets mistreated in her past and then goes on to call all men rapists. Even the ones that just want to go on dates with her and have done nothing but treat women with respect his whole life. And yet hes the villain because he has a penis.

The Crack Emcee said...

jr565,

It depends on the whites? Ah so its based on individuals and not based on groups? Apply that thinking to whites when it comes to racial issues in general, and you'll realize the flaw in your thinking.


No, there's no flaw, my friends understand. I can talk about whites to them all day and, because they're Americans, it's of massive interest to them.

Not all whites are like you, jr - they know what happened and don't deny it. They try to help. I know one white guy - an Apple tech - and he fixes all the black's computers in his area for free. Everybody loves the guy, and he's a gun-toting, bottle cap glasses-wearing conservative. But, who knows whites have done shit.

You really are missing out, jr,...

Revenant said...

"Did Oprah being rich mean her family didn't work for other's wealth?"

Hell we all do that

Well, technically only 63% of us do that. The other 37% of the labor force doesn't have jobs.

jr565 said...

Gahrie wrote:

Hey give us some slack.....you Black people murdered him because he changed his mind about "evil Whitey"......

Yup. And he didn't totally change his mind, he just softened it a little. But he was on the right track. And because he tempered his views ever so slighty he was murdered by black folks who had a problem with him softening his views.

Trashhauler said...

"Well, white people looked and acted like Nazis, why aren't you more pissed about that? Why doesn't that even enter your mind?"

Not even a "some white people....?" Isn't that a bit...what's the word? An over-generalization?

And, as I'm told, we spent many lives and much time killing as many Nazis as we could. Or maybe you have a different definition of Nazi?"

The Crack Emcee said...

Gahrie said...
Did Oprah being rich make the crime of slavery go away?

No the Civil War and the death of hundreds of thousands of White people did that.

Did not - otherwise all that unearned wealth would be returned.

The Crack Emcee said...

jr565,

Yup. And he didn't totally change his mind, he just softened it a little. But he was on the right track. And because he tempered his views ever so slighty he was murdered by black folks who had a problem with him softening his views.

You guys are so dumb to black history you don't know anything. It's funny to watch you spit what you think you know.

You're idiots.

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:

No, there's no flaw, my friends understand. I can talk about whites to them all day and, because they're Americans, it's of massive interest to them.

Not all whites are like you, jr - they know what happened and don't deny it.

I know what happened, and I don't deny it. I simply argue that it happened, and isn't happening now to the same degree. You want to find racist individuals, you always will. (I'm talking to one right now). But that doesn't change the fact that the world is fundamentally changed.
ANd some blacks have realized this, and gone on to great success because they know how to take advantage of opportunities that are there. Others are mired in the past and don't see the forest for the trees.

FullMoon said...

Gotta give CMC a 10 for trolling. You make A Reasonable Man pale in comparison.
C'mon now, Crack, you grew up in California and did not suffer all this injustice you speak of.
Got your feelings hurt in school? hahaha. Guess you are the only one.
Own up brother, you were raised middle class.

Gahrie said...

Did not - otherwise all that unearned wealth would be returned.

So the crime of slavery can never be mitigated or go away, since it is impossible to compensate the former slaves for their forced labor. (Even though misguided liberals have been attempting to do so through welfare and transfer payments the last 60 years)

You're idiots.

So Malcolm X wasn't murdered by Blacks after he began to soften his anti-White rhetoric?

Let me guess..it was actually a conspiracy organized by White people?

chickenlittle said...

You guys are so dumb to black history you don't know anything. It's funny to watch you spit what you think you know.

You sir, have turned it into Black Histrionics Month -- around here at least.

Gahrie said...

Hey..some of my ancestors were enslaved by Moors and Barbery pirates...where do I go to get my compensation?

jr565 said...

FullMoon wrote:
Got your feelings hurt in school? hahaha. Guess you are the only one.
Own up brother, you were raised middle class.

We hear about bullying in school all the time. If it's not racist, then it's because you're gay. Or a nerd. Things are still tough in school for a lot of kids. Even non black ones.

Civilis said...

Your statement was that AA was owed to 'blacks', specifically. That's AA is owed to "us", your group, by "them", everyone else.

The whole notion that debts are owed by groups to other groups leads to nothing other than misery. This notion is the root of a lot of racial politics in this county, and it's both the cause of misery and a scam.

Oprah doesn't need a handout; she succeeded on her own. The idea that I should owe Oprah, or Michelle Obama, or Clarence Thomas a debt because my ancestors were probably less miserable than theirs determined entirely by group membership and not personal ancestral history. And it's the politically connected that benefit from the handouts, not the people that actually need a hand up. It's the race-card politicians that ride to elected office (with sweet deals for their already well off friends and family). Fixing this means looking at people as individuals, not merely as members of a group. But because the people who are telling you to vote for them are "us" and they're telling you to hate "them", people who don't know any better lap it up, and the misery persists.

Revenant said...

You sir, have turned it into Black Histrionics Month

Ok, that was pretty funny.

jr565 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Crack Emcee said...

FullMoon,

Own up brother, you were raised middle class.

In a series of South Central, Los Angeles foster homes.

Riiiight,...

jr565 said...

o Malcolm X wasn't murdered by Blacks after he began to soften his anti-White rhetoric?

Let me guess..it was actually a conspiracy organized by White people?"

My guess is Crack might argue that they didn't kill him specifically BECAUSE he softened his views. They killed him because he was trying to break away from the organization. But still, they did kill him.

The Crack Emcee said...

Gahrie,

So Malcolm X wasn't murdered by Blacks after he began to soften his anti-White rhetoric?

No, dummy, he was killed for leaving the Nation after discovering Elijah Muhahmud was having affairs with his secretary.

His talk about race had nothing to do with it.

Now, don't you look dumb? And why is it, whenever I straighten you out - which happens a lot - you never acknowledge it. You never admit you're wrong. You just run to another topic like that makes you look clean. You don't. You look dumb.

Mature, jr.

The Crack Emcee said...

jr565,

"My guess is Crack might argue that they didn't kill him specifically BECAUSE he softened his views. They killed him because he was trying to break away from the organization. But still, they did kill him."


And The Crack Emcee does work on cults, why?

If I'm not mistaken, you were on Malcolm's killers side of that debate, too,...

Gahrie said...

No, dummy, he was killed for leaving the Nation after discovering Elijah Muhahmud was having affairs with his secretary.

His talk about race had nothing to do with it.


Wow!

Do they/did they murder everyone who left the Nation of Islam?

Or just the ones who also stopped blaming Whitey for everything?

William said...

Nobody in Europe was treated worse than the Irish in the 19th century. During the famine years one out of seven people in Ireland starved to death. And everybody in Ireland knows that the English spent more to feed their horses during the Crimean War than they did for famine relief. And no English horse died of starvation.....These were deep wounds, and they don't vanish in a generation. And that's not the half of it. The ugly scars are in some ways more disabling than te original wounds. Michael Collins, the military leader of the IRA, refused to play soccer or cricket because he considered them British garrison sports. In this respect he showed greater purity than such Uncle Toms as Ali and Michael Jordan who agreed to play games formulated by white men.......DeValera, the dominant figure in Irish politics for two generations, was born in Brookllyn to a Cuban father. My father was born in NYC to two parents who were born in Ireland. During WWII he went to England on a troop ship. I'm sure he would have appreciated it if DeValera would have allowed the Atlantic ports to be used for sub patrols. But DeValera kept Ireland neutral in that conflict. I suppose he had reasons to distrust Churchill, who, after all, was a committed imperialist, but the fact remains that he got along far better with the German ambassador than the American one. Irish neutrality allowed Ireland to dodge a few Luftwaffe raids, but it also caused Ireland to miss out on the Marshall Plan bucks after the war. Ireland's wish to hold itself separate and apart from the Anglosphere gave that poor country another few generations of poverty....,..What I'm driving at here is that the resentments can sometimes be just as debilitating as the original offenses.

SteveR said...

Well over half the comments.

damikesc said...

I started high school in 1976. First day, I'm seated between two white boys who start this dialogue:

Cool story, bro.

Can you try one with some relevance next time?

Chef Mojo said...

So, the other day I said I was giving Althouse a pass. But, then I decided to amuse myself by coming here once a day after Althouse has done the bulk of her blogging.

I go over what she's blogged, and then try to guess which posts comments threads have gotten Cracked. Then I do a quick check of each comment thread. When I see Crack's avatar pop up? Score! I follow it for a bit and see everyone feeding him to confirm I have a winner. I don't actually read; I just skim the avatars. The reading is a waste of time. The subject of the blogging no longer matters, inasmuch as it relates to the probability of the post getting Cracked in the comments.

I'm batting a thousand, so far.

So for me, Althouse has become a quick daily amusement devoid of content. It's become a fun little diversion, like so many of those online time wasting zombie shoot-em-ups.

Ciao! Can't wait to check back tomorrow for a few minutes of Crack fun. Y'all should try it sometime. Maybe come up with a scoring system, and post your scores.

The Crack Emcee said...

Gahrie,

Wow!

Do they/did they murder everyone who left the Nation of Islam?

Or just the ones who also stopped blaming Whitey for everything?


The Nation's a cult, Gahrie, currently mixed up with Scientology.

They killed one of the most effective speakers the world had ever seen because, they thought, if he were allowed to live the cult would be no more.

Glad to see you acknowledge his evolution - it's practically the most awe-inspiring part of his story. Makes the way whites treat his story very cheap. He grew up in a cauldron. He was on his way to greatness. We lost a wonderful man.

Trashhauler said...

"They try to help. I know one white guy - an Apple tech - and he fixes all the black's computers in his area for free. Everybody loves the guy."

One thing that puts whites at a disadvantage when it comes to such discussions is that they cannot list any examples of what they've done for blacks without coming across as a phoney - or being accused of it. It practically invites a sneering comment.

My Dad grew up with all the racist crap one could imagine in a northern steel-making city. Yet, by the late 1970s, he and Mom were taking in black kids from Cleveland to the farm for the summer. After he retired, his main fishing buddy was some black guy he met out on the water. They soon went everywhere together.

In college, I roomed for two years with a black cadet (when there weren't very many) because we got along well. Hadn't seen him in decades. Last fall, I saw him at our 40th reunion and it was like we had never been apart. When my daughter went to Purdue, I insisted that she put down "No Preference" for ethnicity on the form for a roommate and she got a black roommate. Hell, the very fact that the form asked appalled me, but apparently there are black-majority dorms where people live by choice.

All of which proves nothing and I claim no special sensitivity. But, in most cases, throughout life, such little things are all a person can do. And just because some know you, that doesn't mean circumstances won't lead the next person to think you're scum. All we can do is treat each other right and don't assume we know everything about someone because of accident of birth.

Civilis said...

All we can do is treat each other right and don't assume we know everything about someone because of accident of birth.

That's the key, to get beyond superficial group identification; to see everyone you meet as one of "us".

Bob R said...

Song for Sonny Liston

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David said...

"Wow!

Do they/did they murder everyone who left the Nation of Islam?

Or just the ones who also stopped blaming Whitey for everything?"


They murdered him because he had the goods on the fearless leader of the movement, an advocate of chastity (and cash donations.) Chastity for thee and not for me, of course.

In short, they murdered him to avoid exposure of corruption.

David said...

Clay had his fans. Lots of fans, of the type who like underdogs and iconoclasts. He was probably the white man's favorite overall, as Liston was viewed as a thug and a criminal. In fact Liston was old. Nobody seemed to really know how old he was.

As for Ali, he proved that he had the courage of his convictions. He went to jail for refusing the draft, when he easily could have avoided that, or had a cushy PR type assignment in the military.

Ali was so psychologically unsuited to the military that he probably would have been drummed out not too long after they got their hands on him. He was a natural rebel, and a charismatic one. He was never going to be a soldier.

Ali also could not keep his mouth shut. So every cockeyed idea that came into his head came out for everyone to hear. Most of us rely on some kind of filter. He did not have one. Or at times he did not.

One night in New York, my wife and I and another couple were at a fancy restaurant high up on Central Park South. It was a Persian-Middle Eastern type of place where you sat on pillows on the floor and ate with your fingers.

Not too long after we were seated Ali (he was Ali by then) came in and was seated at the table next to us. He was a huge man, much larger than I expected, and absolutely gorgeous looking. The women were gaga. We tried to act like this was normal but not very successfully, i imagine.

Ali was with two other people, a man and a woman. They were all very lovely and dignified. The tables were close together and in a few moments Ali spoke to us. Just small talk. He was very gracious. He was clearly putting us at ease, and did it gracefully. The two tables had several other polite inconsequential chit chats. He could not have been nicer.

By the way his prison stint may have had a lot to do with his apparent brain damage. That and Joe Frazier. Ali lost his best years as a fighter and a large amount of money by choosing to go to jail.

MadisonMan said...

You sir, have turned it into Black Histrionics Month

Ok, that was pretty funny.

Is it racist that Black Histrionics Month is the shortest month?

chickenlittle said...

By the way his prison stint may have had a lot to do with his apparent brain damage.

Did Ali fight in prison? I didn't know that.

The Kinks gave up a huge fortunate in the 1960's by refusing to stop fighting.

chickenlittle said...

The youngster... the kid....

Didn't Ed Sullivan refer to The Beatles as "youngsters" around that time? I wouldn't read that much into 50 year old expressions used by old folks then.

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, you were on Malcolm's killers side of that debate, too,...

I was? please explain how. You know who was? Mohammad Ali (though perhaps he wasn't for the killing of Malcolm X). And I just got through saying what a dick he was for espousing Nation of Islam type views.

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:
Glad to see you acknowledge his evolution - it's practically the most awe-inspiring part of his story. Makes the way whites treat his story very cheap. He grew up in a cauldron. He was on his way to greatness. We lost a wonderful man.

He had just started learning the lesson that MLK had already known years before. And he surrounded himself with a bunch of crazies who didn't even get Islam right. And until he had his conversion he was a dick to a lot of people who would otherwise have been his ally.
Was he a great speaker? Sure. He articulated his position very well. he just argued a position that was very inflammatory.

Revenant said...

By 1965, "people should be treated equally regardless of their race" was a lesson most Americans had already accepted for years and Malcolm X was only starting to understand.

A great man? Eh, more like the black George Wallace -- who, come to think of it, *also* had a change of heart and rejected racism towards the end of his life.

Drago said...

MadisonMan: "Is it racist that Black Histrionics Month is the shortest month?"

Conjures up memories of Chris Rock starring as "Nat X" on Saturday Night Live. I can't remember how long "nat x"'s show was allowed to be in the skit, but it was like 3 minutes or 7 minutes or something.

Nat's comment about why the show was so short?

"Because that's all the man will give us" or something to that effect.

Chris Rock was hilarious.

Drago said...

I should say that I had alot of experience with guys like "Nat X" way back when I was growing up near Oakland.

Too funny.

RonF said...

Crack Emcee:

"Needless to say, I was suspended on my first day at a white school, for making two assholes eat a desk and chair."

Actually, you did need to say it. Because until you did I would not have guessed that your reaction would have been to commit violence on them.

I'd have suspended you as well. Was that the first time time someone used that word to refer to you? Was it the last? Was it reasonable for the school administration to expect that you would hear it again? The school had no effective way to keep racist kids from using that kind of language. Was the school then to tolerate violent behavior from you? When would that stop - when you broke someone's arm? When you killed someone?

Plus, there's this little thing called freedom of speech, which if it does not protect offensive and disgusting speech is worthless.

Insults - no matter how abusive or offensive - do not justify violence. I was never insulted because of my race. I was insulted because I was short, fat, wore glasses and didn't hide the fact that I was the smartest kid in the school. I was also had my property destroyed and was assaulted.

Great sympathy for the verbal abuse you took. No sympathy for "Needless to say ...."

jr565 said...

RonF wrote:
Insults - no matter how abusive or offensive - do not justify violence. I was never insulted because of my race. I was insulted because I was short, fat, wore glasses and didn't hide the fact that I was the smartest kid in the school. I was also had my property destroyed and was assaulted.

Great sympathy for the verbal abuse you took. No sympathy for "Needless to say ...."

I don't really have that much of a problem with Crack beating up kids who were being disrespectful. They sound like bullies. Sometimes thats the way someone getting picked on deals with them. The teachers usually let them get away with the bullying otherwise.

Jim at said...

One of the greatest moments of my sports childhood was when Ken Norton broke Ali's jaw.

Revenant said...

I don't really have that much of a problem with Crack beating up kids who were being disrespectful.

I'd have to believe the story before I could form an opinion on whether or not the reaction was appropriate. It sounds like standard-issue Crack fantasy to me.

It is particularly silly given that he just claimed to have grown up in foster homes in South Central.

Crazy Jane said...

I gather that Crack isn't everybody's cup of tea here. I don't come around often and so don't have an opinion.

But if two creepy kids insulted my child in a similar way, I would have been comfortable with a response like Crack's, and I would have made a point of saying so, loudly, to the school principal.

If a child of mine overheard the nasty conversation as Crack reported it, I would expect him or her to ridicule the two creeps loudly. And I like to think my kid would do so.

Perhaps if the adults and other students around Crack at the time had responded better, this incident would have settled in his mind as one in which he took pride for asserting himself successfully and not a wound that was festering many years later.

Rich Buck said...

sonny liked the H - Ali is King

Revenant said...

Perhaps if the adults and other students around Crack at the time had responded better, this incident would have settled in his mind as one in which he took pride for asserting himself successfully and not a wound that was festering many years later.

Like you said -- you don't come around here often.

Crack's always got a new story from his own past that luckily happens to exactly support the claim he's trying to make. White people entering South Central and getting their asses kicked by tough and world-wise black men is a common theme.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kirk Parker said...

jr565, Crazy Jane:

NO WAY. I would not want my child to respond to mere words, unless they signified a credible intent to move on to actual physical violence, with anything more than words in return.

Part two of that expectation is that, once the other person actually touches you, or makes a (reasonable-person-credible move to) then OF COURSE you can defend yourself. I'd be proud if my child did that, in such a circumstance. But for just vile talk? Just a dignified reply showing that you were way better than them was all that was called for.

Rusty said...

Full moon @ 8:51
Every one on the internet is a tough guy.
Everyone on the internet is the smartest person you'll ever meet.
Everyone on the internet can kick your ass.
Everyone on the internet that makes those claims are, in reality,not too bright pussies.

The Crack Emcee said...

Crazy Jane,

"If two creepy kids insulted my child in a similar way, I would have been comfortable with a response like Crack's, and I would have made a point of saying so, loudly, to the school principal."

Thanks, Jane. If you don't hang around, I have a group of racists who follow me around and try to besmirch my name - all of them white and clueless to the racist behavior of their actions (I didn't stop being black since they started harassing me, y'know?) They got pissed because, after enduring years of hearing them discuss blacks as "blacks", I started calling whites "whites", and the racism of it affects them - but only because the slander now works both ways. Racists HATE that.

Basically, I'm trying to get these racists, either, up to speed or out of the Republican Party quicker than they'll go on their own,...