January 26, 2014

Ancient Willie Nelson rolled out as a gently giggling prop...

... so Bill Maher can blab about legalizing marijuana. I found that very unpleasant. Willie's a beautiful singer-songwriter, and I would prefer not to see him used as an icon of pot-smoking. He's old, and I don't really expect him to articulate policy opinions, but his failure to do much more than giggle actually makes the argument against smoking pot.

I'm also reading Maureen Dowd's new column, which begins, "So you want to get high in a high-end way in the Mile High City." (I can't believe we're not past "Mile High City" jokes, but I guess putting in another "high" — "high-end" — gives you a time extension on "mile high.")

There are some dismaying resort operations exploiting the aging Baby Boomers' urge to spend money getting some legal(ish) marijuana at long last, e.g., "Dale Dyke and his wife, Chastity Osborn, a massage therapist" who are turning their house into a bed-and-breakfast, replete with "a tether ball, a camera in the living room to Skype your friends stoned, an outdoor swing 'where you can have a good time and catch a buzz,' and 'maybe a nerf horseshoe court.'" Picture it. Did you picture it nude? Well, it's clothing-optional. The business plan is to charge guests for the room, then give the homegrown pot to them.
“We want the higher-end clientele,” the 38-year-old Chastity says. “Comedians. Adult film entertainers. Musicians.”
It's $199 a night, in case you're fine-tuning your hearing of implied messages of high-endedness. Adult film folk? Nude! Tether ball!
“People are learning not to be ashamed,” the 45-year-old Dyke said. “No more talking in whispers. We’re moving away from the image of dumb stoner teenagers to older successful businesspeople who can admit they’re stoners.”
Which would make them... dumb! You can be dumb at any age. You can be dumb and rich more or less affluent, and there are people who would like to help you get dumber and drain off some of that excess money you might have burning a hole in your pockets, the pockets of those pants you can shed with all your inhibitions as you get high and play tether ball with porn stars.  And comedians. Whose jokes you'll be sure to laugh at, because you'll be high.

Older successful businesspeople... I love the use of "businesspeople," as if they're picturing luring females. Have you ever seen a successful old businesswoman naked, out in the full daylight, smacking a tether ball around and laughing herself silly because of all the pot and comedians? 

Dowd quotes some pseudonymous lady who runs something called Edible Events:
"I don’t want to use the word ‘pot’ or ‘weed’ or ‘smoke’ or ‘joint... If we redefine it as consuming cannabis, then maybe people will be more open to that."
Remember that every time you hear or read "cannibis." It's a branding thing. Framing.
"There are only so many hoodie-wearing stoners in town. This needs to be opened up to other demographics." West is especially interested in wooing women, getting them to equate cannabis with a glass of wine.

"Many women think it’s something that makes you dumb," she says....
It does make you dumb! Many women — including me — think it because it's true.  You may think you're so smart that you can shave off IQ points. And if the people around you are those tether ballers paying $199 a night on the theory that there might be naked porn stars and naked comedians chowing down on free pot brownies then you'd probably want to knock off about a quarter of your intelligence just to protect yourself from entirely losing your mind. And you are getting old anyway. Maybe not as old as Willie yet. He's 80. But as you decline toward the end, maybe you choose to finish your ramble through this vale of tears dwindling into giggles.

102 comments:

Shouting Thomas said...

Shit, prof, you're no fun at all.

Deirdre Mundy said...

Now all the potheads are going to show up and argue that pot hasn't made them stupid and lazy because....well, the argument won't get that far... because... potheads.

Though, is it that pot makes people dumb, or that dumb people do pot? Maybe CO will be a good chance to explore this further. I mean, the bed and breakfast seems to point towards the second choice.

(Also, is $199 really a 'high end' B&B? They may not be getting the clientele they hope for at that price. More college kids, fewer successful business people...)

traditionalguy said...

So a sacrament of the Baby Boomer church is lifted aloft for worship. Big deal.

Ann Althouse said...

"Also, is $199 really a 'high end' B&B?"

If you have to ask, you're not the clientele Dyke and Chastity are trying to pretend they're getting so that the people they'll actually get will show up.

Ann Althouse said...

"Shit, prof, you're no fun at all."

Says a person who's aware he's been made fun of.

MaxedOutMama said...

It sounds like a regression to childhood!!!

MayBee said...

Paying $199 a night to Skype while high sounds like the funnest thing ever.

Bob R said...

Heck, if you rely on Bill Maher and Maureen Dowd to make arguments for smoking pot, of course you are against it.

Now, you enjoy wine (and beer and some spirits if I remember correctly.) Do you consider the feelings of intoxication a big down side? I'm definitely in "not a bug, a feature" camp. Pot doesn't have great flavor like (good) alcohol, but it provides euphoria without giving your liver a workout. If it's ever completely legal in VA, I can see putting a couple of plants in the garden.

The pot tourism doesn't appeal to me at all. I can see going for a vacation in Colorado, but the idea of being around people who came for the sole purpose of getting high turns me off.

Ann Althouse said...

Imagine a 60ish man affluent enough to pay $199 and dumb enough to think that will put him in the company of naked actresses and content to get high and bobble around his own nakedness on the tether ball court. Now, imagine him miffed that a successful businesswoman instead of wanting to play with him looks askance.

I bet this is the guy who, 40 years ago, said to the women who didn't respond to his catcalls: "Whaddya? Stuck up?"

EMD said...

What sucks is that Willie Nelson's legacy will be more around pot smoking than his music.

Anyone can smoke pot. Not anyone can write and perform music like Willie Nelson did.

Carol said...

Yeah it does make you dumb..it sure derailed my ambitions as a teenager, and I tended to break things on it.

And the stoners I knew well turned themselves into Eloi on the stuff. The one with the highest IQ recently filed for early retirement, so he could get that princely 400/mo cash. For the rest of his life.

Maybe it's that average people seem stupid and boring, and the few other high IQ are threatening, who knows. There are a few hard driven and edgy guys (usually) who seem to survive and thrive on the stuff. Most merely aspire to get on disability.

Edward Lunny said...

So, the stupid self identify again. Meh. After the luster of "newness" wears off these idiots will awake to fuzzy heads and foul body odors. Then, reality will give them a good ,swift kick in the ass. And, for them ,nothing will have changed. I don't think legalized pot will be the disaster so many predict. The shiftless and stupid aren't going to be of greater numbers than they are currently.

Ann Althouse said...

"but it provides euphoria without giving your liver a workout"

1. Alcohol doesn't provide euphoria.

2. Do you know the health effects of pot smoking?

3. Light drinking has a positive healthful effect, medical personnel have been forced to admit, even as they'd have preferred to advise us just not to drink at all.

4. Maybe there's some non-damaging degree of pot consumption and that it might be a good idea to use it instead of alcohol. If I had to sit through a classical music or jazz concert, I think pot would work better than alcohol, for example.

5. I'm happy with pot getting legalized, just because I think the presumption should be against legal limitations and I don't like the money spent on enforcement and the risks of unequal enforcement, but that does not remove the reason to keep up the social pressure against this intelligence-eroding drug. As Obama said, when he opined that it's less dangerous than alcohol: "It's a bad habit."

Kelly said...

When I talk with my girls about weed and it's long term use, I point to Grandpa (my dad) as an example. So far it has worked great. The twenty four year old won't allow it at her house, the fifteen year old just broke up with a boy for his smoking after failing to convince him to stop (not ashamed to say I read her text messages).

SGT Ted said...

The juicers have no credibility criticizing pot smokers.

SGT Ted said...

IF your "critique" of pot smokers relies on Cheech and Chong movies, you need to try harder.

Shouting Thomas said...

Says a person who's aware he's been made fun of.

When I was a young man with a godlike body, the young girls happily showed me their stuff. I'm not complaining. I always appreciated the display, and the generous feelings implied... not to mention, the sex.

I've loved me a few older ladies, and they're great, but they are not so happy about showing their stuff, as the general rust of age is eroding the structural supports.

Best to keep it in the dark.

My job is the wise fool. Make fun at your own risk.

If you like to talk intellectual a whole lot as a prelude to getting laid, there's always the "workshops" at Esalen. Sometimes, they talk so much they forget about getting laid.

And, Esalen ain't too different than the BS described in your post.

SGT Ted said...

I've seen belligerent drunken bums attack police officers. Drunk on wine.

You wine drinkers are scummy bums.

Right?

That appears to be the criteria to judge pot smokers, so I thought I'd try it out on you Winos. No? Unfair, is it?

You are right, its just as stupid as the depiction of pot smokers as Cheech and Chong.

somefeller said...

I bet this is the guy who, 40 years ago, said to the women who didn't respond to his catcalls: "Whaddya? Stuck up?"

What do you mean 40 years ago? Try 40 minutes!

Shouting Thomas said...

Can you imagine an Althouse Weekend Retreat @Esalen!

Think of the marketing opportunities.

You have any idea what they charge for that shit?

iowan2 said...

Our highschool's biggest stoner was forced by the courts into the Navy.
He ended up with top secret clearence, retired at 20 years and weht to work in private sector spook work. He switched cars on the way to and from work.
A family friend ended up as CEO of a well known international company. He used to show up at our family farm occasionally and walk the field lanes getting high.
Willy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrddy4FGT6Q
I know its a video, but the song is a hoot.

SGT Ted said...

When I talk with my girls about weed and it's long term use, I point to Grandpa (my dad) as an example.

Good thing I'm not the Grampa; they'd get the idea that you can lead a successful career and life and still smoke some pot.

Same with one of my friends, a Grandma, who is a senior executive with a major insurance firm. She worked her way up the corporate ladder, from switch board operator to her current positions. Smoking weed the entire way.

Yea, it's the pot that makes lazy people lazy, not their laziness. What stupidity.

Carol,

High IQ has nothing to do with motivation. I've known plenty of high IQ dunderheads. Your high IQ friend turns out to not have been so smart. You might want to hold him/her accountable and not blame the pot. It's like blaming access to legal alcohol as the culprit for drunks being drunks.

Shouting Thomas said...

You've got to let the weed go free, prof.

Have you taken the test to see which Simpson's character most resembles you?

Can't find the friggin' link to the Simpson's game.

Skeptical Voter said...

You want dumb? Consider that the Colorado State legislature has just legalized pot. Next up on their legislative calendar is a law which would ban Big Gulps.

A 12 year old can smoke a joint--but he can't have a 32 ounce soft drink.

Go figure.

Meade said...

@Shatting Thomas: No one here is interested in the racism you absorbed during your New Age years at Esalen.

EDH said...

Is it coincidence this ad appeared next to Dowd's NYT piece?

Lumosity Brain Games
Challenge memory and attention with scientific brain games.

SGT Ted said...

A 12 year old can smoke a joint--but he can't have a 32 ounce soft drink.

Really? Colorado law allows 12 year olds to smoke weed?

Or, are you just being an idiot?

Shouting Thomas said...

Which Simpson's character do you most resemble, Meade?

I'm betting the blue haired kid with the glasses.

What in the hell is his name?

Yes, I am every kind of "-ist" you can imagine, and more, Meade.

I am one hell of a sinner.

Illuninati said...

"“I think a lot of conservatives are realizing, hey, maybe this is where we’re going,” Nelson said of the country’s move towards legalization. “Do I want to go, or do I want to get left behind?”"

A substantial portion of conservatives I know are "libertarians" who couldn't care less about the issue.

Edward Lunny said...

" blaming access to legal alcohol as the culprit for drunks being drunks." Abuse of alcohol and/or chemical substances is a convenient excuse to avoid responsibility for confronting the vagaries of everyday life. A mechanism to distort and avoid ones reality. In the vast majority of cases, as I have experienced ,that is an accurate description of the situation.

David said...

There are lots of things that are legal that are also bad for you. The sort of legalization of pot adds another to the list.

Ann Althouse said...

People who are pleased to announce that they are a racist…

Gross.

Even when not naked.

Talk about lacking structural support. That's really hanging low.

Ann Althouse said...

"You have any idea what they charge for that shit?"

There's no amount of money that could buy anyone a weekend at Meadhouse, and you have no idea what it's like here. But you like to say what you think it is. In metaphor, that's called "sour grapes"… or, alternatively, ditchweed.

Rob said...

Just what the world needs: another 45-year old Dyke.

SGT Ted said...

There are lots of things that are legal that are also bad for you.

Yup and the people moralizing about those things are just as annoying. I consider the tobacco and booze nannies to be the same flavor of moralizers as the pot nannies.

somefeller said...

I am one hell of a sinner.

Oh good, now we'll get to see ST's "more Catholic than the Pope" pivot. All the greatest hits of the 70s are being played this morning at Chez Althouse.

somefeller said...

On a serious note, the issue isn't whether marijuana is good for you. The issue is whether we should use police state tactics to prevent people from smoking it. Given the experience of recent decades, it seems to me that the answer should be no.

Ann Althouse said...

"I'm betting the blue haired kid with the glasses."

So you're still dreaming of bullying the schoolyard nerd, but you're a grown man, thinking of bullying a child, a cartoon child at that.

That's the least manly thing I've read in a long time.

Pot-smoking is, actually, de-masculinizing, but I wouldn't give you that out.

Ann Althouse said...

"A substantial portion of conservatives I know are "libertarians" who couldn't care less about the issue."

I thought it was the libertarians favorite issue.

Isn't why half of them want to be libertarians… or why they promote it (to win over people who want access to drugs)?

Shouting Thomas said...

The kid with the blue hair would be Millhouse, who is Bart's best friend.

Bart gets the shit kicked out of him, too.

But, I can see that another ultra-dramatic civil rights crisis is a-brewing Chez Althouse.

Was my usage correct, prof?

madAsHell said...

The inspiration for a dumb idea.

Dale Dyke (DD): "Dude, nobody wants to buy my home grown stuff anymore, and we just can't get by on Chastity's message therapy paycheck. What am I going to do?"

Stoner Buddy (SB): "I dunno, dude. Let's burn one, and talk about it"

DD: "oooooooooooooo..........cough, cough"

SB: "ooooooooooooooo.........."
"yeah....that's good stuff"

SB: "Ya know, you've got this really nice place here in the woods...not many people around. How'd you find this place?"

DD: "It belongs to Chastity's Dad. We are way behind on the rent"

SB: "Ya know, you could run this place as a bed-n-breakfast?"

DD: "Dontcha remember?? We tried that. No one could find the place."

SB: "Ya...but this will be different.....cuz....you're going to give away your home grown pot"

DD: "People still won't be able to find the place"

SB: "They won't have too!! I'll be the driver."

DD: "You're going find all the guys living in their Mom's basement, and drive them out here?"

SB: "No, dude, we're going after the high end clientele. We will charge a hundred bucks a night."

SB: "Hey man! Don't bogart! Pass it on over."

DD: "No, man....we need to get the really elite clientele. We need to charge $200/night"

SB: "I dunno. That's an awful lot of money."

SB: "How about we compromise at $199?"

DD: "OK....so we've got free pot. What else can we offer?"

SB: "oooooooooooooooo...."

SB: "Well, you've got that tether ball, and that swing out back"

DD: "yeah.....ooooooooooooo.....cough, cough"

SB: "We can put a Skype camera in the front room."

DD: "Duuuude.....Devine Inspiration!! We can make it clothing optional!!"

SB: "Awwwesome!! We can bring in the porno ladies!!"

DD: "I'm thinking this will be a gold mine"

Shouting Thomas said...

Millhouse's adult role is not that of the beaten down, bullied out slob.

He just likes sloppy seconds, and he's pals with Bart.

Use your imagination, prof.

Edmund said...

My brother lives in Denver and we have been talking about this issue for all the time it has been developing up there. On a visit there two years ago, when medical weed was available, it was amazing how many small freestanding business buildings were converted to dispensaries. From what he told me, they have to be in freestanding buildings (that they buy) since most landlords won't rent to them and banks won't open accounts for them due to pressure from the Feds. The business is strictly cash.

Now that recreational use is semi-legal, he told me he heard an ad for a bus service that will provide your smoke of choice and drive you to the mountains to ski or snowboard, then bring you back to town. (Snowboarding while stoned? Think of it as evolution in action.)

Ann Althouse said...

"On a serious note, the issue isn't whether marijuana is good for you. The issue is whether we should use police state tactics to prevent people from smoking it. Given the experience of recent decades, it seems to me that the answer should be no."

Seems to me, I'm separating those 2 issues and treating them completely differently.

I don't buy your saying "the issue isn't… the issue is…" Both are issues and both should be taken seriously at the same time. It's not a matter of getting everyone over to one issue or the other, though I see that a lot. I say: Both are issues.

This is a problem in law where people get hung up on thinking if something is bad, it should be illegal and others want to talk about how it shouldn't be illegal and lapse into acting like it isn't bad.

Many, many things are not illegal and are nevertheless bad.

Like for example being an asshole.

Hagar said...

Now you have got the image of Maureen Dowd and Willie Nelson smoking pot and playing naked dodge ball stuck in my head.

Ann Althouse said...

@madashell

LOL.

Meade and I dramatically read that.

jimbino said...

When you find yourself naked in a hot-tub with a "liberated" woman who wants to "converse" or "relate," first, a little pot goes a long way in tying half your brain behind your back so that you can maintain a conversation with her over physics, math, chess, history, geography, architecture and other manly things.

somefeller said...

I don't buy your saying "the issue isn't… the issue is…" Both are issues and both should be taken seriously at the same time. It's not a matter of getting everyone over to one issue or the other, though I see that a lot. I say: Both are issues.

Fair enough. How about saying one issue is bigger than the other? Namely, the harm to our society caused by the police state created by the War on (Some) Drugs is greater than the cumulative harm that would be caused by decriminalized marijuana-smoking?

Big Mike said...

@Althouse, you don't care for classical music?

Try this.

Or this.

(And here is a 9 year old Dutch girl with perhaps better sound quality in the recording.)

Or try a tenor.

Bruce Hayden said...

I think that it is a great thing living in Colorado right now, and watching this whole thing roll out.

Some good, and some bad. Had an A&W Root Beer in Frisco owned by Messianic (Christian) Jews. Jerusalem Times out along with the playing of Christmas carols, and Christian scripture mixed with Hebrew on the walls. Well, they have shut down, and will be replaced with a pot dispensary. And, in town here, the town council is trying to decide how much pot industry to allow, and where to allow it in the zoning. And meanwhile, you have all these whack jobs coming out of the woodwork with their pot induced ideas for making their fortunes.

rehajm said...

I have to strongly disagree with madAsHell's depiction-

Dale Dyke never bogarts.

Otherwise accurate.

John said...

Ann says "Alcohol does not provide euphoria"

I am not sure what you mean by euphoria but it does provide a high, a buzz, a drunk, relaxation and so on through the dictionary. Different type of euphoria perhaps but still seems like euphoria.

Would you drink non-alcoholic wine if it tasted identical? Or non-alcoholic beer, bourbon, scotch etc?

I suspect that the main reason you and most everyone else who drinks alcoholic beverages is for the effect of the alcohol. I also suspect that you and most everyone else will not admit it.

I have no problem with you drinking. I have no problem with drinking making you stupid. It does, in even very small amounts.

I am a pro-choice kind of guy.

My problem is when drinkers try to tell me "My drug is better than your drug."

It wears a bit thin.

John Henry

Shouting Thomas said...

So if a PC gent wants to talk a groovy chick into doing the dirty he can't:

- Say "I really think you've got great tits. Will you drag them out?"

- Invite the chick to some far out pow-wow out in Big Sur and talk about how sensitive I am and shit.

- Say "You wanna show your stuff to me and a bunch of guys down at the pool hall?

What is the proper mating ritual for the socially conscious egghead?

madisonfella said...

Not only does pot make you dumb (look how stupid Carl Sagan was, not to mention Richard Bronson, Micheal Phelps, Micheal Bloomberg, and Stephan King...all a bunch of stupid dumb asses who will never find success in life) but it also makes black men get all uppity. When high, they dare to look white men in the eyes and will flirt with white women. Look it up - that really is why it was outlawed in the first place.

As others have mentioned, a wine lush pushing this Reefer Madness nonsense would be kinda funny if it wasn't for the fact that her lies and exaggerations are helping to support the failed War on Drugs.

Fen said...

somefeller: On a serious note, the issue isn't whether marijuana is good for you. The issue is whether we should use police state tactics to prevent people from smoking it. Given the experience of recent decades, it seems to me that the answer should be no.

On this day, Sunday 26 Jan 2014, somefeller and I are in agreement.

I'm also annoyed at the risk I have to take to score some. Shady dealers, rip offs, delivery delays b/c the source goes out and parties with your cash AND your weed and then dodges you for weeks. I understand now why there is so much violence related to dealing.

As for the effects, total bliss. And I've made creative breakthroughs I never could have without it (breakthroughs that astonish me even when I am sober). Key problem is, like any drug, you need to have the discipline to not abuse it.

Fen said...

Its also Viagra for women. I may have gotten laid more often due to that than my charming disposition.

madAsHell said...

Meade and I dramatically read that.

Good!! I'm glad you could hear the characters.

John said...

Ann asks if we know about the medical effects of MJ.

Well, I know a lot of the claims about the medical effects. Claims that it is harmful and harmless.

I treat them something like global warming. More a belief than actuality.

The way MJ is treated it is probably impossible for an honest study to be done.

And, regardless of any health effects, what about "my body, my choice"? You are all for that with abortion.

What is the difference with my choice to use MJ.

My body, my choice.

Not yours. Mine.

Just in case you are interested, I feel the same way about booze, heroin, crack, LSD, meth/Adderal and so on down the list.

John Henry

FullMoon said...

"Well, ask me why I'm drunk alla time,
It levels my head and eases my mind.
I just walk along and stroll and sing,
I see better days and I do better things.


Now, do you suppose ol' Bob was talking about being drunk, or high?

Fen said...

ANd weren't the "alcohol kills brain cells" studies recently debunked?

garage mahal said...

2. Do you know the health effects of pot smoking?

None that I'm aware of. The Lancet did a study and concluded "The smoking of cannabis, even long-term, is not harmful to health. ... It would be reasonable to judge cannabis as less of a threat ... than alcohol or tobacco."

Approx 50,000 people die each year from consuming alcohol. If you could find one from smoking pot I would be surprised.

John said...

I smoked copious amounts of weed in my youth in the 60s. Also many other drugs that I won't list.

I also used to drink copious amounts of booze until I quit completely in the fall of 1984.

I remember going to a cocktail party in Atlanta in 1985. I got there late and everyone had been at the sauce for some time. It was the kind of thing I used to enjoy. I used to think that the conversations were so interesting and the people were so witty. Myself included.

I was appalled. I never saw more low functioning morons in one place in my life.

A lot of these people were/are personal friends of mine. They are entrepreneurs, engineers, designers and other accomplished folk.

When they got on the sauce, they became stupid. When I was on the sauce too, I also became stupid so didn't notice.

If you want to try something interesting, just drink orange juice at the next party you go to.

See how stupid you look when drinking. Even light drinking.

John Henry

William said...

Whatever the pros and cons of pot smoking, there is nothing more mind expanding than playing naked tether ball with porn stars. The intensity of the experience is greatly magnified by playing it in a stone labyrinth. Too many people cheapen the experience by playing in hedge labyrinths.

John said...

Just think how much better a singer and writer ol' Willie could have been if he did not do pot.


(Sort of like how successful Bill Gates might have been if he had not dropped out of school)


Willie has long been open about all the pot he does. Why does he never get busted? Or when he does, why does nothing happen?

Equal treatment under the law and so on. Bullshit! Celebrities walk, everyone else is potential chow for the system.

John Henry

SGT Ted said...

People that say they drink wine, or any booze, strictly for the flavor are most likely lying to themselves.

That's not to say that enjoying the flavor can't be a huge part of the experience. I drink beer or whiskey I consider tasty as well.

betamax3000 said...

Seventies Van Robot says:

Years of Pot-Smoking Teens in Ocean Pacific Corduroy Shorts Have Made My Stained Original Green Shag Carpet a Source for a Contact High. I've Had Roach Clips in the Ash Tray, Lost Joints Behind the Blue Vinyl Seat Cushions, Bell-Bottom Chicks Playing Eight-Track Tapes of Carly Simon, Smoking Grass and Thinking the Song was About Them: the Clouds Weren't in their Coffee, if You Know What I Mean. I've Had Stoned Kids Try to Parallel-Park Me on Empty Streets, Singing Along With Foghat and I've Been Parked Outside the Felt While My Passengers were Inside Rockin' to the Kinks and Trying to Turn the Girly-Girls on to a Bit of Reefer, You Had to Be There; I Was. I am Seventies Van Robot, and I Still Have a Waterbed.

Kelly said...

SGT Ted, actually I could use you as an example of someone promoting a substance that is proven harmful to kids. I can point to their Uncle as someone who watched their Dad smoke and in fact smoked it with the old man and went on to other drugs. He's homeless off and on while his old man is just slow in his thinking.

To be fair, I can point to their Great Uncle and the affects of chronic alcoholism. At least the Great Uncle never promoted it to his own kids or pretends their isn't some harm in it.

SteveR said...

In my experience, a lot of pot smokers were losers and basically couldn't handle it. There was a certain benefit to avoiding them. That didn't mean you didn't smoke but you were discreet and careful. This modern pot culture doesn't seem like much fun.

Bob R said...

"1. Alcohol doesn't provide euphoria."
Some disagree.

Christopher J. Morgan and Abdulla A.-B. Badawy. "Alcohol-induced euphoria: exclusion of serotonin." Alcohol and Alcoholism (2001) 36 (1): 22-25.

"2. Do you know the health effects of pot smoking?"

No, and I'm pretty sure that there are negative side effects of smoking, inhaling, and holding pot in your lungs. Anyone who has cleaned a bong and says otherwise is ... a poor observer.

"3. Light drinking has a positive healthful effect..."

It's also delicious.

"4. Maybe there's some non-damaging degree of pot consumption and that it might be a good idea to use it..."

You're going Puritan on us. Everything has to be good for us. How about, "there might be some situations where it would give us more pleasure without a higher degree of risk."


5. I'm happy with pot getting legalized, .... "It's a bad habit."

Key word is "habit." I'm fine with all the social pressure anyone wants to bring as long as we end this destructive drug war.

rcocean said...

I'm always amazed at how many pot-heads surf the net. Dis there favorite drug and they're up in arms.

Now that we have defacto legalized Pot - we'll see in 10 years what the large term health problems are. Medicare/Medicade costs will rise no doubt.

Crazy that the same people making war on "Big tobacco" support legalized Pot.

Quaestor said...

John Henry wrote:
Just think how much better a singer and writer ol' Willie could have been if he did not do pot.(Sort of like how successful Bill Gates might have been if he had not dropped out of school)

From someone who customarily posts lucid commentary here, that construct is positively addled. (pot addled, by any chance?)

If this was intended as a defense of pot smoking, then I award Althouse game, set, and match.

sunsong said...

I think Willie Nelson did a good job considering he was there as a prop. It's pretty hard to argue that pot has ruined his life :-)

I want to see pot legalized for adults. Yeah, there is a down but, imo, criminalizing it is worse. I find it tragic the number of people we incarcerate in America. I'm not sure on my statistics but it seems like per capita we have more people in jail than any other country. And the number of young people jailed for drug use is a serious injustice in my view.

I've seen this up close and there is no question but far too many lives are ruined through incarceration. What is stupid, imo, is the system we have now. So finally, change is happening. That's good, imo. Thank God. I'd much rather have to deal with somebody who is stoned than somebody who is drunk.

Lydia said...

Not so good for kids with schizophrenia in their family history. A 2013 study at the Northwestern University Feinburg School of Medicine and Northwestern Memorial Hospital -- Marijuana use linked to schizophrenic-related brain changes:

"The abuse of popular street drugs, such as marijuana, may have dangerous implications for young people who are developing or have developed mental disorders. This paper is among the first to reveal that the use of marijuana may contribute to the changes in brain structure that have been associated with having schizophrenia."

rehajm said...

Crazy that the same people making war on "Big tobacco" support legalized Pot.

Not entirely crazy- If we allow big tobacco to enter the pot industry, the Dale Dykes of the world have their "business model" destroyed.

Michael said...

I have seen some film of the pot shops in the new legal-but-really-illegal. Dumps run by stoners. We capitalists will fix that so you will not feel like an utter fool of a dope tourist. Just wait. The white kid with dreadlocks, slow at making change? Gone. The fat chick with the tattoos and underarm hair? Gone. Storefront in a sketchy part of town? Gone. Stand by for good dope, great service, fantastic snacks (sweet and sour), wonderfully funny (or scary) videos. Great comfy chairs. Stand by because these places are on their way.

And the grubby fucking hippies, the inarticulate sales people will be long gone. Consumers instead of captains of the pot industry. Because they are too fucking stoned to work.

donald said...

I never see it addressed in these posts that some people like me wonder just who the fuck's business is it what I do as long as I'm not harming the next guy.

That is the one and only issue to me, all drug laws against possession and use are immoral.

Stuff that in your pipe's and smoke it.

Illuninati said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Illuninati said...

Althouse said:
"I thought it was the libertarians favorite issue.

Isn't why half of them want to be libertarians… or why they promote it (to win over people who want access to drugs)?"

Good point. I probably should have phrased my statement better which was meant as a response to Bill Mahr's query about why the conservatives weren't upset by the issue. Most conservatives I know are middle class folks who are alarmed watching their world change around them.

I do remember that years ago in New Mexico our governor, Gary Johnson, then a Republican, proposed legalizing drugs without any visible blowback from conservatives. Other than that I haven't heard much about drugs from conservatives. They are concerned about much bigger things like the erosion of personal freedoms, freedom of speech, the economy, gun rights etc.

William said...

Frank Sinata had a line about being in favor of anything that gets you through the night. Perhaps the line could be phrased with greater effect as to being in favor of anything that gets you out of bed. Reality both in contemplation and practice is difficult to endure. As the years go by, the laws of gravity become particularly oppressive. Any drug or activity that can ameliorate this experience is welcome. When I was younger I felt that malt does more than marijuana can to justify God's ways to man, but different metabolisms digest life's. hardships differently......Alcoholism has stalked my family for generations. I always liked the taste of strong drink, but felt that someday that taste would lead me to ruin. Sometime in my forties I gave up drinking altogether. No teetotaler ever died a drunk.....I got into long distance running. There's truly a euphoric feeling after a good work out. More importantly there's the feeling when life feels out of joint that there's something you can do to control your mood.......Jogging is, at my age, no longer practical, but naked tether ball with pornstars gives one a good work out without putting undue trauma on the joints.

jr565 said...

Andrew Cuomo wants to have ten or so hospitals dispense medical marijuana, provided a doctor is providing a script.
But isn't medical marijuana the most ridiculous argument when it comes to legalizing pot.
I realize that Peter Tosh says it's good for asthma, but really, where is the studies proving the efficacy of using pot for various ailments? Where are the trials where pot is tested and studied in comparison to other drugs. What are the side effects. How effective is the treatment compared to other drugs that a doctor might prescribe.
For example, for fibromyalgia they often will treat with Lyrica. If a patient went to a hospital with fibromyalgia and the doctor instead offfered him joints, wouldn't you have questions about the hospital practicing medicine?

sunsong said...

donald,

John Mayer, 'Who says I can't get stoned?'

jr565 said...

Althouse wrote:

5. I'm happy with pot getting legalized, just because I think the presumption should be against legal limitations

For pot alone, or for any illegal drug? Like Krokodil?
Also, if we are to legalize illegal drugs, should we maybe stop holding legal drugs to such high standards? Like if some people die on phen phen, should we force businesses to cease selling those drugs? Because if Phen Phen is bad, and needs to be removed from the market, due to effects of phen phen, how about Meth? or Krokodil? Or Crack?

jr565 said...

rehajim wrote:
Not entirely crazy- If we allow big tobacco to enter the pot industry, the Dale Dykes of the world have their "business model" destroyed.

Hey if we want to legalize pot, lets make pot manufactures liable for the effects of their drug just like we do cigarette manufacturers. Because, it will come out that pot smoking has the same effect on your lungs as cigarettes, despite idiots saying it's "medicinal". Not to mention the effects on young peoples brains. Cigarettes used to be marketed as relaxing too. Some even marketed cigarettes as medicinal.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/pictureshow/2010/02/cig_ads.html

And similarly, lets have the same arguments about second hand smoke for pot that we do for cigarettes.

John said...

Donald,

Have you missed my notes? I have posted several in this thread asking precisely that question:

Why does Ann, or anyone else, have any right to tell me what I can do with my body.

Ahhhh... But some will say it is because democratically elected pols have made that decision in the name of the people. (Anticipating Ann's argument)

Them I would refer to Bastiat and his 1845 book "The Law" in which he asks why what is immoral when done to one individual by another individual suddenly becomes moral when done collectively by a group of individuals called government. He was talking about taking money and property but it is the same issue.

Just to be clear Donald, the reason I am against MJ laws is not because of crime, harm or lack of it or any other justification.

I am against MJ and drug laws because I am pro-choice.

My body, my choice. I, not someone else, gets to choose what I do with my body.

I think that is more or less the same thing you are saying. I agree with you that the other stuff is just rationalization to avoid the moral issue at its heart.

John Henry

John said...

If cannibanoids have no medicinal value, why has Marinol been marketed for years now?

US law says no drug may be sold unless it has been proven to FDA satisfaction to be "safe and effective"

John Henry

Titus said...

You could not get a hotel room in Boston for $199.00. Try $350.00 for like a Sheraton. And during graduation time the rates are like minimum of 500.00-we are so fab.

east coast tits.

Titus said...

Also, it would be helpful if the pube didn't sign some cooch probe thing....so much for small government conservatives.

Huckabee, though, is the perfect fat face of pubes. Old, southern, christianist, white, pasty, butt ugly, obese, fox news host, and an all around grossie.

Mike Huckabee's man tits.

Goju said...

You may see me tonight with an illegal smile
It don't cost very much but it lasts a long while
Won't you please tell the man I didn't kill anyone
I'm just trying to have me some fun
John Prine

Goju said...

You may see me tonight with an illegal smile
It don't cost very much but it lasts a long while
Won't you please tell the man I didn't kill anyone
I'm just trying to have me some fun
John Prine

Elliott A said...

John Denver had it prognosticated 40 years ago... "Rocky Mountain High" "Friends around the campfire and everbody's high".

jr565 said...

John wrote:
My body, my choice. I, not someone else, gets to choose what I do with my body.

I think that is more or less the same thing you are saying. I agree with you that the other stuff is just rationalization to avoid the moral issue at its heart.

That's the side of the equation that the libertarians always cite, but the other side is the sale question. DO you have a right to sell anything to anyone?
For example, can you sell a product like Krokodil that would turn your customer into an addict and cause his body to rot?
Doctors can assign drugs, but need to provide a medical reason to do so. can dealers simply sell anything to anyone?

You as an individual can eat lead paint if you want. But can a company sell you toys with lead paint in them?
so, what you put in your body is not the only question involved when it comes to legalization.

jr565 said...

Titus wrote:
Also, it would be helpful if the pube didn't sign some cooch probe thing....so much for small government conservatives.

If you are taxing pot, then that is bringing govt into the sale of pot. How then is that a victory for small govt?
The pro legalization crowd arent even arguing honestly. It's not a small govt argument at all.

jr565 said...

John wrote:
Them I would refer to Bastiat and his 1845 book "The Law" in which he asks why what is immoral when done to one individual by another individual suddenly becomes moral when done collectively by a group of individuals called government.


Ok,heres an example. It's wrong for me to imprison people against their will. IF I am found guilty of imprisoning someone govt will imprison me against my will.

jr565 said...

how else would you punish someone for imprisoning someone but jail? is it immoral to put people in jail? I don't think so, so long as they're guilty.

jr565 said...

John wrote:
"If cannibanoids have no medicinal value, why has Marinol been marketed for years now?

US law says no drug may be sold unless it has been proven to FDA satisfaction to be "safe and effective"

So then why are doctors prescibing pot and not marinol?

jr565 said...

rehajim wrote;
Not entirely crazy- If we allow big tobacco to enter the pot industry, the Dale Dykes of the world have their "business model" destroyed.

Even worse than this, what if the mexican cartels become the new big tobacco? Because,its not as if somehow the current distributors of weed are going to lose the ability to distribute weed. They're already the main suppliers.

jr565 said...

donald wrote:
That is the one and only issue to me, all drug laws against possession and use are immoral.

Ok, but how did you get it? Was it sold to you? And did you sell it to others?
Can you sell someone a product that will turn them into a junkie for your product, without even requiring a doctors prescription? Then why do doctors need to give out prescriptions?
Your absolutism would actually change fundamentally how things are bought or sold, and not just drugs.

donald said...

I did John Henry. Bless your clear thinking.

John said...

JR565

If I have the right to use it, I have the right to buy it.

If I have the right to buy it, someone else has the right to produce and sell it.

Not the obligation to produce and sell it but the right. And not the right to force me to buy it either. Merely the right to offer it to me if they choose to do so.

In case it has not been clear from my notes, I have been speaking of competent adults. Children, under 18, and mentally incompetent adults I would treat differently.

I think a government has the obligation to protect them.

As a liberal (or as many call it "libertarian"), I think that protecting citizens from predation by others is pretty much the sole legitimate function of government.

I do not consider selling me weed to be predation.

Krokodil, meth/adderall and some of the other things mentioned, as long as the seller is not fraudulent in hiding risks, govt has no business "protecting" me from them.

My body, my choice.

I want the right to choose not to smoke weed. Not have that choice forced on me as it is now.

John Henry

SGT Ted said...

SGT Ted, actually I could use you as an example of someone promoting a substance that is proven harmful to kids.

Kelly,

By your stated standard, Beer commercials are promoting a substance that is proven harmful to kids.

You cannot point to any of my writing where I say it is OK to give kids pot. People who give pot to kids is certainly a loser. But, he was a loser that smoked pot. You just would prefer to blame the pot. My experience shows the opposite of your contention that pot use equals loser.

Now, if you think you have to scare your kids to stay away from it until their minds are developed, go right ahead. Some kids need that. But, don't buy into the reefer madness hype.

The Godfather said...

There was a US Senator (I think it was Thruston Morton, but I'm not sure) who said, Until I gave up drinking I had no idea how boring my friends are.

Pot's pretty much the same.

I wish that we could legalize pot because the benefits of criminalization are overwhelmed by the detriments, while still enforcing social pressure against its use and abuse. But I expect that legalization will be followed by a boom in abuse. Just look at movies made in the '30's, after Repeal; they mostly glorify drinking, and drinking to excess.

Ann Althouse said...

"@Althouse, you don't care for classical music?"

That's not what I said, nor is it the case.

My problem is sitting through concerts. I find it hard to pay attention to exactly what I'm hearing and I always want it to be over, because I don't like being stuck somewhere following someone else's time line.

I'm fine listening to recordings.

But a concert challenges my willingness to be under the control of the performance, and I always end up thinking about all manner of other things, because that's where the freedom lies.