April 20, 2013

"He had lost a lot of blood. He was so weak that we were able to just go in and scoop him up."

Said the police, describing the capture of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.

Said Lillian Campbell, the grandmother of the 29-year-old victim Krystle Campbell:
“He was a snake, wiggling through the ground, and I was afraid he got away... But now I can go on with my life. I just pray tonight everything works out OK because so many people got hurt. Not just Krystle. There’s so many more. There’s enough heartache.”
AND: "So lockdown is lifted because they can’t find the suspect…which allows boat guy to leave his house…and find the suspect."

347 comments:

1 – 200 of 347   Newer›   Newest»
edutcher said...

I had a feeling that's how they got him, but, doubtless, Big Sis and all the other authoritarians will claim the lockdown worked.

Or work as hard as possible to make sure people forget it didn't.

Jay said...

For anyone interested, Orin Kerr:

Tsarnaev is being interrogated without first being read his Miranda rights because the DOJ thinks that the public safety exception to Miranda applies. Back in 2010, I blogged a lot about Miranda in this setting. Here are a few reminders about the law here:


I do rather enjoy the fact that the 2 minutes of hate crowd took to the Internet to mock Sen Lindsey Graham for saying we shouldn't mirandize the perpetrator and then upon capture, the Obama Administration promptly invoked the "public safety exception" to Miranda.

That was fun.

madAsHell said...

I watched a stream of politicians parade before the TV cameras to hand out praise, and pretty much repeat what the last guy said.

It seemed like the TV crew was working from a pre-negotiated list of politicians, and they would call them forward by name.

Tridad said...

Lockdown not in place, boat guy might've been at work and not gone out back to smoke at all.

If...if...if. It's all Monday morning quarterbacking.

Browndog said...

"So lockdown is lifted because they can’t find the suspect…which allows boat guy to leave his house…and find the suspect."

Worse, after they had the guy surrounded, in a boat, in Watertown, they went back to Marshall Law- "Shelter in Place" for Boston.

Aside: What was all the shooting about? Seems they couldn't hit the broadside of a boat...

OldGrouchyCranky said...

Good job of keeping on top of things!

However, if Instapundit generates an Instalance and Althouse refers back to Instapundit, does that result in an endless loop? Wow, the Web could bring about the end of timelessness.

HA said...

So he suffered. That's good.

pm317 said...

"So lockdown is lifted because they can’t find the suspect…which allows boat guy to leave his house…and find the suspect."

Yep..

C Stanley said...

WaPo has details of the older brother's death. Seems that little bro was trying to help by mowing down the police who were tackling him...but the officers moved out of the vehicle's path and he ran over his brother intead.

T J Sawyer said...

I wonder how many Harvard professors are out buying rifles and large magazines this weekend.

Just in case something like this ever happens again.

traditionalguy said...

So he did not surrender. He was near death out from blood loss from his wounds in the last shoot out.

A good outcome caused by the release of the hostage Mercedes owner.

These two are not that well trained as terrorists beyond the bomb making and planting part.

pm317 said...

Unlike Henneberry, they used a robot to pull back the tarp over the boat.

From here

Henneberry is the boat owner who stepped on a step ladder and stuck his head inside the tarp to see something curled up in a ball inside the boat..Lucky Henneberry that the guy did not just shoot him in the face.. So if he was curled up in a ball, he later opened fire on the cops before they scooped him up?

Mogget said...

With respect to that last volley of gunfire, I would be interested in knowing the kid actually shot at the cops, or if they panicked and shot up the boat.

somefeller said...

If...if...if. It's all Monday morning quarterbacking.

Exactly. The peanut gallery always has to gripe. It's in their nature.

Sorun said...

"Lockdown not in place, boat guy might've been at work and not gone out back to smoke at all."

And perp dies of blood loss in the boat. His body is found later. So the lockdown enabled finding him while still alive. Clever cops.

C Stanley said...

.Lucky Henneberry that the guy did not just shoot him in the face


I thought the guy's thought process and actions were idiotic. You're confined to your home all day because an armed and dangerous, and likely wounded, fugitive is known to be hiding in your neighborhood. And then you notice that your boat's tarp strap has been cut and there's blood on the boat, and your conjecture is that an injured animal has crawled up in there?

WTH?

CWJ said...

Exactly Browndog,

If he was so weak and all they had to do was scoop him up, what was all the shooting about and by whom?

Tridad, Monday morning quarterbacking perhaps. But the fact remains that a wounded teenager was still able to get outside the perimeter. They could scour that area all week long and never find him because he wasn't there. With the resources at hand, I can't really explain why the guys drawing the circle didn't make it big enough.

I'm reminded of the old joke about the drunk looking for his keys under the street light.

Hagar said...

Don't blame the cops so much for this clusterfuck.

This was the politicians reacting to the media coverage and ordering the cops to pull out all the stops.

Kelly said...

To me it's curious they let the guy they carjacked go. Was it to personal for them to kill someone face to face? Was it easier to target unknown, faceless people with a bomb? Did they high-five each other when they learned they killed a kid?

Inga said...

What were the shooting at? It appears he was injured from the earlier shoot out.how could that barrage of bullets not pump him full of holes, unless they shot above the boat. Surprising that the folks in the neighborhood didn't get bullet holes in their windows and walls.

Yeah the boat guy could've been gone all day, no one would've seen the boat.

Ipso Fatso said...

I am so glad that Obama is our Leader!!!! He captured this terrorist bare handed just like he did Bin Laden!!!! He is so brave!!!!I am safe because of him!!!! I will vote D for ever!!! Thank you Barack!!!!

Rabel said...

"What was all the shooting about? Seems they couldn't hit the broadside of a boat..."

I've seen some reports supposedly based on police scanner traffic that the high volume fire was dummy rounds or noisemakers - to confuse and intimidate the suspect.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

I think the decision to lock down Cambridge and Watertown was sensible. The city of Somerville did not lock down, even though the city line was very near the Norfolk Street residence.

Whether the city of Boston needed to be locked down is debatable. Perhaps that followed from the decision to close the public transportation system. Perhaps Mayor Tom Menino closed his city in sympathy to the search.

However, what makes people think the lockdown was mandatory? Was anyone arrested or cited for violating it?

bpm4532 said...

With the massive police presence and other "responders" I think it's appropriate to question the effectiveness of the operation and the investments we've made in these given the real valuable information was provided by civilians.

campy said...

The peanut gallery always has to gripe. It's in their nature.

...he griped.

Chef Mojo said...

"Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19, was in Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center today."

Now, that's some burning irony right there...

Sorun said...

In the DC Sniper case, they once shut down the interstates so they could search for two white guys in a white van. The shutdown came about 20 minutes after a shooting.

Does that make sense? It didn't to me, but it makes the cops look like they're doing something. They were covering their own asses at the expense of everyone else.

Then there's the Dorner manhunt -- cops looking out for their own interests while risking everyone else's safety.

alan markus said...

Rabel said: I've seen some reports supposedly based on police scanner traffic that the high volume fire was dummy rounds or noisemakers - to confuse and intimidate the suspect.

Pretty much what I have read too in various reports. Also some kind of percussion rounds to stun him - as I recall, they waited an hour outside the boat - considering that he was holed up under a tarp they really did not know what condition he was in - i.e, ready to fire at them or loaded with a bomb (like his brother).

nowhey said...

Who the fuck is "Marshall Law" Marshall Dillon, heard of him. Never heard of no fucking Marshall Law, however.

Aridog said...

The lock-down was sensible and enabled the killing of one terrorist and capture of another. The lock down took away the "sea of people" (Mao Zedong) for the fugitives to blend (swim) in to and quickly get out of town.

I've lived and served in countries that enforce martial law during curfew hours, or in certain hostile areas. It works. So Boston lost a day or two...it worked, too. It is likely that lives were saved.

I congratulate the citizens of Boston, Watertown, and Cambridge for the self discipline to do what worked.

CWJ said...

Rabel and Alan Markus,

That makes some sence and I hope those reports are correct.

somefeller said...

So Boston lost a day or two...it worked, too. It is likely that lives were saved. I congratulate the citizens of Boston, Watertown, and Cambridge for the self discipline to do what worked.

Amen. This was an extraordinary response for an extraordinary situation. In the end, the police and people of Boston and its environs handled themselves well and the bad guys are captured or dead.

creeley23 said...

I'm going to pull an Obama.

I used to live on that block of Norfolk Street near Inman Square (truly). There is a piece of Cambridge in me...

I used to work in Watertown. I also used to live in Kenmore Square and shopped in Copley Sq.

This bombing was all over my old stomping grounds.

Titus said...

I have assessed their "hot level" over the past few days and my results are:

Older bro-pretty hot, nice body, hair good, clothes likey, nose yummy.

little bro-not as hot but hot enough, great hair, good face, love the lips, eyebrows delish, nose to die for.

tits.

Titus said...

Creely, I live on Beacon and Cambridge Street right by the Fire House and S&S Deli and Punjabi Dhaba-hugs.

tits.

Sorun said...

Lockdowns give liberals the cozy feeling of being wrapped in a warm, fuzzy, statist blanket on a cold winter's evening while holding a mug of hot cocoa.

BaltoHvar said...

@Rabal – astute! I think many are not comprehending the effects of the “lock down.” #2 may have heard the order, and realized he was meat if he tried moving within or near the area. He had to hole-up. He was forced to quit, and in the wounded state it was then a matter of time before he'd either be discovered or succumb to his injuries.

He's 19, and not many 19 y/o's have the capacity to execute a criminal escape – and in this case it seems like they had none anyway. Which further seems to indicate theses two were outliers, claiming jihad, but doing this on their own. Had they been the point of a spear, they'd have chosen either the suicide method, or been iced after the attack by their superiors. The fact they did not go on the run, but rather (apparently) thought they could just blend back into the population was their fatal error.

Looking at the pictures, #2 was strong enough to climb out of the boat, even with his blood loss.

Having the shrink-wrap on the boat ripped, maybe the wind blew open a flap that the Police took to seem he was coming out with bad intent, thus triggering the initial volley.

edutcher said...

OldGrouchyCranky said...

Good job of keeping on top of things!

However, if Instapundit generates an Instalance and Althouse refers back to Instapundit, does that result in an endless loop? Wow, the Web could bring about the end of timelessness.


Is it incestuous or just sex?

somefeller said...

So Boston lost a day or two...it worked, too. It is likely that lives were saved. I congratulate the citizens of Boston, Watertown, and Cambridge for the self discipline to do what worked.

Amen. This was an extraordinary response for an extraordinary situation. In the end, the police and people of Boston and its environs handled themselves well and the bad guys are captured or dead.


Yes, because suspension of the Constitution and imposition of a police state has always been the way we've handled intensive manhunts in this country.

creeley23 said...

Amen. This was an extraordinary response for an extraordinary situation. In the end, the police and people of Boston and its environs handled themselves well and the bad guys are captured or dead.

I dunno. All this to capture two amateurish young men, one a teenager, who did not even try to flee until their pictures were released to the public?

God forbid the Boston police ever have to deal with professional terrorists.

somefeller said...

I lived in Cambridge for awhile. That is a densely populated area and a terrorist with the means and desire to do terrible damage (which these brothers showed they had) could easily do it there. The lockdown made sense.

There are news reports that the older brother had a lovely wife and young daughter. Everything to live for and he chose this evil path. Disgusting.

Lem said...

Phrase used to describe the fact that it is easy for one to be knowledgable about an event after it has happened.

IE: An individual has a realization about the event that should have been obvious all along, yet they didn't catch on because they were acting in the heat of the moment.

Marshal said...

somefeller said...
If...if...if. It's all Monday morning quarterbacking.

Exactly. The peanut gallery always has to gripe. It's in their nature.


Notice that the left can never just disagree, everything must be turned into a pathology. As if citizens are too low status to discuss the affairs of the government aristocracy.

What an asshole.

jr565 said...

Sorun wrote:
Then there's the Dorner manhunt -- cops looking out for their own interests while risking everyone else's safety.

Looking for Dorner was not simply in the cops own interest.

edutcher said...

somefeller said...

I lived in Cambridge for awhile. That is a densely populated area and a terrorist with the means and desire to do terrible damage (which these brothers showed they had) could easily do it there. The lockdown made sense.

The same can be said of every major city north of the Ohio and east of the Mississippi, but I can't remember an instance where everything was shut down in such an extra-constitutional manner.

And it didn't even work.

nobody shut down New York because of the Mad bomber back in the 50s.

Renee said...

Was anyone arrested for ignoring the 'order'?

No one.

There were indeed plenty of people actually roaming about the city.

The shelter-in I believe worked.

As someone mentioned, the guy who went out for the smoke, would of just go with his day.

In some circumstances, a 'shelter-in' (4-6 hours) then proceed with caution, isn't a bad idea.

Sorun said...

"Looking for Dorner was not simply in the cops own interest."

I have not heard a good explanation how three innocent people got shot at by police.

Inga said...

"Yes, because suspension of the Constitution and imposition of a police state has always been the way we've handled intensive manhunts in this country."

4/20/13, 11:14 AM

Not just any manhunt, men with bombs strapped to their bodies, Iike the one the older brother wore.

somefeller said...

No one's saying you can't talk, Marshal. I'm just pointing out the nature of most of the people taking this as an opportunity to gripe about the police and local government in Boston, as opposed to those discussing this issue thoughtfully. And my point is being proven. Sorry if that hurt your feelings, but if you thought the peanut gallery comment applied to you, perhaps this is a good opportunity for some self-reflection.

Lem said...

Although, second guessing the authorities even when things go "well" serves a good purpose that somehow eludes me right now... I have to think about it and I cant because I'm working.

For one, it keeps them re-evaluating.

Lem said...

If we arent critical they get complacent.

edutcher said...

The big problem is that it was a lousy and dangerous (politically and governmentally) policy.

Again, it didn't work.

A citizen found the kid, the way a citizen found the Beltway Snipers.

There's a pattern here.

Achilles said...

somefeller said...
"So Boston lost a day or two...it worked, too. It is likely that lives were saved. I congratulate the citizens of Boston, Watertown, and Cambridge for the self discipline to do what worked.

Amen. This was an extraordinary response for an extraordinary situation. In the end, the police and people of Boston and its environs handled themselves well and the bad guys are captured or dead."

But the guy wasn't even inside the perimeter. A private citizen found the perp. This is like trying to pass background check legislation everyone who supported it admits would have done nothing to stop Newtown. Does the truth matter? Apparently to the statist results are less important than giving the state more authority.

somefeller said...

Which Constitutional rights were suspended in the lockdown, edutcher? Be specific. And please note and discuss any standard legal exceptions to such alleged rights violations in your response, like exigent circumstances. Thanks.

Aridog said...

edutcher sez ...

Yes, because suspension of the Constitution and imposition of a police state has always been the way we've handled intensive manhunts in this country.

What part of voluntary compliance with a request to lock down do you not get? Formal martial law was NOT declared.

Never-the-less....please cite the articles and sections of the Constitution that prohibits martial law when circumstances necessitate it. Presidents Jackson, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Johnson have phoned in the from their graves about this travesty.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Notice that the left can never just disagree...

Notice that the right can never just give credit.

Achilles said...

somefeller said...
"No one's saying you can't talk, Marshal. I'm just pointing out the nature of most of the people taking this as an opportunity to gripe about the police and local government in Boston, as opposed to those discussing this issue thoughtfully. And my point is being proven. Sorry if that hurt your feelings, but if you thought the peanut gallery comment applied to you, perhaps this is a good opportunity for some self-reflection."

A complete lack of self awareness on parade for all to see.

R. Chatt said...

A moment of joy in Boston:

O Ritmo Segundo said...

This has got to be the worst bungling of law and order and public safety since Obama ordered the raid on bin Laden! A travesty of constitutional and military proportions!

Also known as: Can't be a good thing if liberals do it.

Achilles said...

And watch the fans of the police state to forth and spread lies about how the lockdown "worked."

There are two competing paradigms here. One is where there is a well armed and prepared citizenry. The other is where the serfs hide in their houses while the authorities roll around in better military style vehicles than some of us had on deployment.

And after all that a citizen found the perp. Not the authorities or the police. The lockdown failed and was only redeemed by a citizen helping the effort.

Aridog said...

Achilles .... what is the likely hood either brother would have been detained or captured if they could have just mingled in a weekday crowd and left town? The pressure of the vacant streets is what kept them contained, and the younger brother did get a block outside the perimeter, but not before he was wounded inside the perimeter.

PS: I've stayed away from this topic [instead of my usual blabber mouth self] until now, more or less, due to the type arguments I was reading, from racial to religious to police tactics. That's just me. I waited until a conclusion of sorts...and that conclusion was successful. Period.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Where on earth would we be without Glenn Reynolds' incisive, neutral and completely objective commentary about all things political.

Achilles said...


O Ritmo Segundo said...
"This has got to be the worst bungling of law and order and public safety since Obama ordered the raid on bin Laden! A travesty of constitutional and military proportions!

Also known as: Can't be a good thing if liberals do it."

Someone is bitter that a citizen succeeded where his vaunted police state failed.

jr565 said...

Achilles wrote:
There are two competing paradigms here. One is where there is a well armed and prepared citizenry. The other is where the serfs hide in their houses while the authorities roll around in better military style vehicles than some of us had on deployment.

The difference I have is that I think there's a middle ground that encompasses both paradigms at once.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Yep. Total police state. "Local control" of obscenity laws and other standards of "decency" is no infringement on your 1st amendment rights but asking for civilian cooperation in catching the terrrrrist that FOX NATION devotes 24/7 coverage to is North Korean!

Baron Zemo said...

You can't trust the government to do the right thing. Then almost never do. They stumble into solving these things by mistake.

The found the Son of Sam because of a parking ticket. Not by a manhunt that shut down the city.

The Son of Sam killed six people. Over the course of a year. A real reign of terror. If it happened today the government would try to pull this same bullshit.

DCPI said...

Did they use any blood hounds to track him down -- he fled by foot, while bleeding, so one would think the dogs would have a good trail to follow -- or did they just use Seals and armored vehicles? Sometimes the non-tech ways work just fine.

Also, for those who want him tried as an enemy combatant, why not just charge treason. That is a crime that is Constitutionally given to the Federal government unlike what is being discussed.

Harold said...

Would have found him faster if they had activated the UNORGANIZED MILITIA- told all militia members within the county (or counties) affected- self organize on a block by block basis- and search your own block thoroughly, then set up a perimeter watch around the block, and notify authorities immediately of any suspiciuos persons or activity. Continue until suspects are located and captured/killed.

Better then ordering everyone to cower in their homes, while police from other states- who have no more arrest authority within MA then any ordinary MA citizen- search territory they are unfamiliar with.

NotquiteunBuckley said...

From the investigation of the murders of some of the bombers friends in Sept. of 2011, these cops assure us everyone involved did a great job:

"He said Leone and former Waltham Police Chief Thomas LaCroix both commented on how difficult it would be because of the lack of eyewitnesses and forensic evidence. Nonetheless, he praised law enforcement for their work on the case.

“The police have done a great job,” he said. “The DA’s office has put some of their best people on the investigation.”

Marchese helped organize a neighborhood meeting last October to discuss the murders.

He encouraged residents throughout the city to stay vigilant and not be afraid to peek out their windows to see what’s going on in their neighborhoods.

“Please call the police if you see anything out of the ordinary or suspicious happening in your neighborhood,” said Marchese.

He lamented the fact that the violent murders happened in Waltham, and noted how none of the victims seemed to have significant ties to the city. He said it was unfortunate that they chose the apartment on Harding Avenue.

“It’s almost like they chose the quietest, safest little cul-de-sac in all of Waltham so that they could fly under the radar,” he said. “Maybe it worked for a while but somebody didn’t do something right. They upset somebody in high places and they paid for it dearly with their lives.”


Read more: One year later, few answers in murder of Cambridge trio - Cambridge, Massachusetts - Cambridge Chronicle & Tab http://www.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/news/x1402245015/One-year-later-few-answers-in-murder-of-Cambridge-trio#ixzz2R1USxhkI
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O Ritmo Segundo said...

Oh, I know, Achilles. I'm just SO BITTER!

How's that heel of yours doing?

P.S. How on earth was any civilian action in conflict with the police requests?

Achilles said...

Aridog said...
"Achilles .... what is the likely hood either brother would have been detained or captured if they could have just mingled in a weekday crowd and left town? "

I was under the impression that the lockdown started after they posted pictures of the perps and the perps subsequently shot a security officer and carjacked someone, not before.

Did they think the perps would turn themselves in after their pics were posted? The perps were bragging on the Internet and had ample time to leave the area after the attack. The lockdown would not have worked on even remotely competent terrorists.

Aridog said...

Achillies said ...

And after all that a citizen found the perp. Not the authorities or the police. The lockdown failed and was only redeemed by a citizen helping the effort.

Yessuh...that's what happened alrighty. Citizens all by themselfs found and shot up to the perps and killed one wounding the other....no authorities in sight. Then another citizen found and dragged from hiding the wounded brother. No cops anywhere in sight either.

Do you ever consider that citizens and police and "authorities" can work together to achieve a positive end? Like they did in this case?

How many Bostonians are protesting this abuse of power by "authorities"?


Baron Zemo said...

You can bet the lefties here would be losing their shit if this was done by a Republican like W or Mitt Romney.

Because it was under the uberliberal regime of Deval Patrick, Mayor Minimum and the Jug Eared Jesus it is A-OK.

Because they are all so much in favor of stop and frisk. Right?

jr565 said...

O Ritmo wrote:
A travesty of constitutional and military proportions!

Also known as: Can't be a good thing if liberals do it.

if this were carried out by Bush what would the left's reaction be? Wouldn't it be the same as edutchers and the libertarians? It was the left invoking the slippery slope argument and the fall into the police state argument when it was Bush's whitehouse.
And you can see this today with the lefts reaction on one hand to Lindsay Graham's suggestion that he shouldn't get mirandized (outrage! Evil! How dare you sir, have you no sense of decency?!?) to Obama not mirandizing the suspect ("oh, Obama didn't Mirandize him? Well, he did have bombs and such".)

edutcher said...

Aridog said...

Yes, because suspension of the Constitution and imposition of a police state has always been the way we've handled intensive manhunts in this country.

What part of voluntary compliance with a request to lock down do you not get? Formal martial law was NOT declared.

Never-the-less....please cite the articles and sections of the Constitution that prohibits martial law when circumstances necessitate it.


In case Ari hasn't heard, the IRS works on "voluntary compliance", but as he shoots himself in the head, there was no martial law declared, so what right did the cops have to order people off the streets?

And I do believe the people have always had free access to come and go as they want.

One of those things covered by the Ninth Amendment.

Given Roe was based on the Fourth Amendment, I'm not sure someone isn't going to come up with a reason how that wasn't violated.

I seem to recall Palladian mentioning how the Constitution had been shredded this week and nobody objecting, but that's OK, the control freaks have to justify how good they feel that government can restrict movement and commerce anytime it damned well wants.

PS I'm betting some phony folksy would have been the first to scream if Dubya had pulled something like this in the wake of 9/11.

NotquiteunBuckley said...

My apologies to cops everywhere.

This asshole I quoted is a fucking lawyer, blaming his fucking clients, saying the cops are awesome.

I have many questions about who first calculated and then murdered these three men and why the killer or killers were able to escape without being caught.

Inga said...

So where is the huge outcry from the citizens of Boston?

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Missed in Glenn's twat and Taylor's tweet: Lockdown forces perp to hide in conspicuous backyard boat in the first place, instead of hopping the MBTA to Providence-line and a trip to anywhere else in the country in a mere few hours. Or to hide in the woods of New Hampshire.

Achilles said...

O Ritmo Segundo said...
"Oh, I know, Achilles. I'm just SO BITTER!

How's that heel of yours doing?

P.S. How on earth was any civilian action in conflict with the police requests?"

It is ok Ritmo. I am used to statists lashing out when their police state tactics are revealed to be ineffective and they have to rely on citizens that they would rather just have shut up and submit.

edutcher said...

Aridog said...

And after all that a citizen found the perp. Not the authorities or the police. The lockdown failed and was only redeemed by a citizen helping the effort.

Yessuh...that's what happened alrighty. Citizens all by themselfs found and shot up to the perps and killed one wounding the other....no authorities in sight. Then another citizen found and dragged from hiding the wounded brother. No cops anywhere in sight either.

Do you ever consider that citizens and police and "authorities" can work together to achieve a positive end? Like they did in this case?

How many Bostonians are protesting this abuse of power by "authorities"?


It's early yet.

The Lefty media is still patting itself on the back about how well they did this week.

Harold said...

DCPI said...
...Also, for those who want him tried as an enemy combatant, why not just charge treason. That is a crime that is Constitutionally given to the Federal government unlike what is being discussed.

To charge with treason either the government has to admit that he was involved in JIHAD- an ISLAMIC holy war against the United States, or he has to admit to JIHAD in open court. The government is NOT going to charge him with JIHAD, under any circumstances, or prosecute him for it even if he does admit it.

The elite in this country have no stomach for admiting that a war with a religion can exist. Therefore, treason will not be charged, and it will be treated as just another criminal case.

Unless you get a runaway federal grand jury... If you know someone currently empaneled on a grand jury, and whisper in his/her ear Hey, take a look at this- there's noithing unlawful in that. The prosecutor may get upset- but is powerless if the grand jury takes off on him.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

if this were carried out by Bush what would the left's reaction be?

It was not "carried out by" or ordered by Obama you shit-for-brains so time to shut your pie-hole with the predictably never-ending run-on sentences.

edutcher said...

PS As Jay noted, the kid was questioned without being read his rights because DOJ thinks that the public safety exception to Miranda applies.

Baron Zemo said...

It is absolutely true that President Obama had nothing to do with the capture of these terrorists.

Just like with Osama Bin Laden.

He is just going to take credit for it.

Aridog said...

Achilles said ...

I was under the impression that the lockdown started after they posted pictures of the perps and the perps subsequently shot a security officer and carjacked someone, not before.

What difference does that make? Once locked down, their avenues for escape diminished considerably...however bright or stupid they were.

I don't really care how they were killed or caught, just that they were and it seems plain to me that the voluntary lock down contributed to that outcome.

All y'll man hunt experts can debate everything else you want...have fun.

I said little on this for two days...and now I'm done.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

"P.S. How on earth was any civilian action in conflict with the police requests?"

It is ok Ritmo. I am used to statists lashing out when their police state tactics are revealed to be ineffective and they have to rely on citizens that they would rather just have shut up and submit.


In other words, Achilles says: "I have no answer to your incredibly reasonable question, but hopefully this over-the-top boilerplate political posturing will help me to feel better."

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Baron imagines a world where the CIC doesn't give orders or weigh the decisions behind them and consequences of them, even though Shrub W. thought it grand to dub himself "The Decider".

edutcher said...

O Ritmo Segundo said...

if this were carried out by Bush what would the left's reaction be?

It was not "carried out by" or ordered by Obama you shit-for-brains so time to shut your pie-hole with the predictably never-ending run-on sentences.


We also didn't hear the Constitutional lecturer objecting to it or demanding it be ended, either.

Always nice when the Lefties can't come up with a good reason, "shut up" is their default response.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

I think W. should have modified his self-given title, to "The Decider Who Ignores the Consequences".

Baron Zemo said...

I imagine a world where they had to cut Obama out of the process because he would have short circuted it if he listen to his closest advisors like Valarie Jarret.

They got Bin Laden despite Obama not because of him.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

We also didn't hear the Constitutional lecturer objecting to it or demanding it be ended, either.

There is nothing, repeat: nothing unconstitutional to police making voluntary requests of people, Obama is not the SCOTUS, no legal challenge was brought, and you are still an idiot in search of a cause.

But, it's good to know how much you hate the idea of police-citizen cooperation. It helps clarify the constant state of war, tension and hostility that you believe should exist within a nation, and between its people and THEIR OWN government.

Buzz off. You are such a waste of time. Responding to you is like batting gnats.

Baron Zemo said...

But that is for the historians to decide. Not us.

Time will tell when all of the memoirs are published.

NotquiteunBuckley said...

It's okay to blame the victims when the cops and politicians don't have a single fucking clue what happened.

Damn people shouldn't have been around weed after they were murdered, after all. Duh.

Thank God everyone involved, the top men according to a local defense attorney, were able to conclude marijuana is bad and people need to not be murdered and then covered in the illegal substance.

Thank you very much.

Please consider yourself heros: the only thing separating America from Chechnya.

The system worked.

"City Councilor Kenneth Doucette echoed those sentiments.

“One thing you hope that comes out of something like this is that people learn to make good decisions so that they’re not involved in this type of activity,” said Doucette, who works for the Middlesex Sheriff’s Department. “There’s no question that everybody involved in this was not making good decisions.”


Read more: One year later, few answers in murder of Cambridge trio - Cambridge, Massachusetts - Cambridge Chronicle & Tab http://www.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/news/x1402245015/One-year-later-few-answers-in-murder-of-Cambridge-trio#ixzz2R1YHdWtv
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Achilles said...

Aridog said:

"Do you ever consider that citizens and police and "authorities" can work together to achieve a positive end? Like they did in this case?"

I think they can work together without tanks and armored personnel carriers rolling up and down the streets.

The only reason the lockdown did any good was because the perps were complete idiots. If they had gone even one state over right after the bombing would they have locked down everything North of DC? And why are you pretending the lockdown had any effect at all? The police responded to a security officer being shot and a carjacking when they got the first perp. They could have done that without a lockdown.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Ok Baron, so now Obama is the same person as Valerie Jarrett. Good to know.

n.n said...

Kelly:

That's a relevant observation. After allegedly murdering several people, and injuring dozens more, there should be no remaining restraints on their actions. Why didn't they murder other low risk and opportunity cost targets, especially unarmed civilians?

Roger J. said...

Re Martial Law--at the federal level the Insurrection Act is the operable statute--I would assume state or local laws would govern such a declaration at their levels, but I don't know.

Achilles said...

O Ritmo Segundo said...
"P.S. How on earth was any civilian action in conflict with the police requests?"

It is ok Ritmo. I am used to statists lashing out when their police state tactics are revealed to be ineffective and they have to rely on citizens that they would rather just have shut up and submit.

In other words, Achilles says: "I have no answer to your incredibly reasonable question, but hopefully this over-the-top boilerplate political posturing will help me to feel better."

You are just whining now.

Hagar said...

It is likely that lives were saved.

So, Aridog, do you have any figures on how many lives were lost because the police and emergency services were all tied up in "show of force"?

O Ritmo Segundo said...

You are just whining now.

Whatever makes you feel better. I guess what you're doing is not.

Again, how's that heel doing?

Lem said...

" I think W. should have modified his self-given title,
to "The Decider Who Ignores the Consequences".

That must be because the drones are so much more inconsequential than Gitmo.

edutcher said...

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Ok Baron, so now Obama is the same person as Valerie Jarrett. Good to know.

I'm sure you said something similar about Darth and Dubya.

BTW, wasn't it ValJar who kept putting the kibosh on the bin Laden hit?

We also didn't hear the Constitutional lecturer objecting to it or demanding it be ended, either.

There is nothing, repeat: nothing unconstitutional to police making voluntary requests of people, Obama is not the SCOTUS, no legal challenge was brought, and you are still an idiot in search of a cause.


Reeeeaaallllyy?

If it involves something that interferes with their liberties, I'll bet some good lawyers could make quite a case of it.

And the idiot is Ritmo for trying to defend this nonsense.

Nice to see the Nazis come out of the closet, isn't it?

garage mahal said...

Did they use any blood hounds to track him down -- he fled by foot, while bleeding, so one would think the dogs would have a good trail to follow -- or did they just use Seals and armored vehicles? Sometimes the non-tech ways work just fine.

I don't get that either. Seems a good tracking dog could have run down this little fuck in no time?

The militarized manhunt should be questioned, but what concerns me more is what comes next in the name of "security". i.e CISPA. That's more dangerous than two losers with homemade bombs.

Because of all the surveillance and government encroachment into our lives......what did it actually prevent?

somefeller said...

Edutcher says:And I do believe the people have always had free access to come and go as they want. One of those things covered by the Ninth Amendment.

Was anyone arrested for coming and going as they pleased in the Boston metro area? And if so, what were the circumstances of the arrests? Once again, please provide specific factual examples of incidents and the Constitutional rights violated. Thanks.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

I await a Tiananmen-like picture of a guy in a white, button-down shirt, tie and a briefcase standing up to the tanks in Boston.

Seriously, have the right-wing gone this far off the ropes? (I know, completely rhetorical question). But just because an image reminds us of something, we're supposed to leave the inference and association at that and engage in no further thinking about what's really going on?

It's astounding. I so want to feel sympathetic to their whines and fears, and then realize that they're forgetting to think entirely about what the situation really IS.

Sad.

Achilles said...

Aridog said...
Achilles said ...

I was under the impression that the lockdown started after they posted pictures of the perps and the perps subsequently shot a security officer and carjacked someone, not before.

What difference does that make? Once locked down, their avenues for escape diminished considerably...however bright or stupid they were.

I don't really care how they were killed or caught, just that they were and it seems plain to me that the voluntary lock down contributed to that outcome.

All y'll man hunt experts can debate everything else you want...have fun.

I said little on this for two days...and now I'm done.

4/20/13, 12:00 PM

The point is you need to analyze the situation and determine what you can do better next time. Telling the citizens to hide in their houses while APC's rolled around and cops sped up and down the streets failed. Cops working with a vigilant citizen succeeded. If that citizen was armed he would have been safer and able to defend himself while he waited for police.

Stop being a sheep and think like a citizen instead of a serf.

Roger J. said...

Garage asks some damn good question.

Michael said...

Garage. I was confounded by the lack of bloodhounds. A good hound can follow a trail three or four days old if there is moisture in the air (note the capture of James Earle Ray after he escaped from Brushy Mtn prison). May be that they dont use them in that part of the world.

Michael said...

RogerJ. Saw you were going to the Bahamas with a fly rod. I have fished for bones down there on flies for three decades. Where are you headed?

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Liberals, moderates, Bostonians: Please realize that the Althouse comments page (much like the blog) is not meant to be taken seriously. It is but performance art.

There are no constitutional concerns about the Dzhokhar Tsarnaev case. It's about the fact that images of empty streets are SCARY!!!

I hope they show us their seriousness by calling a Constitutional Convention to draft an amendment specifying that people will be allowed out of their houses whenever they want to be! No one will tell me that I'm impeding an investigation, EVER!

Oh well. That's what integrity would require. But sadly, conservatives seem to be failing their purported convictions more and more often these days.

Achilles said...

" garage mahal said...
Did they use any blood hounds to track him down -- he fled by foot, while bleeding, so one would think the dogs would have a good trail to follow -- or did they just use Seals and armored vehicles? Sometimes the non-tech ways work just fine.

I don't get that either. Seems a good tracking dog could have run down this little fuck in no time?

The militarized manhunt should be questioned, but what concerns me more is what comes next in the name of "security". i.e CISPA. That's more dangerous than two losers with homemade bombs.

Because of all the surveillance and government encroachment into our lives......what did it actually prevent?"

Next time I call you a statist remind me of this. There is good in you, I can feel it! Garage will be on the side of freedom some day.

Now if you can just get knee jerk Ritmo to notice that subordination to the police state isn't necessary to be a good little Obamabot.

Aridog said...

Well, I'll be damned, conservative to the bone, yet....I've finally up and gone done it...I'm cussed as a progressive liberal!!

Victory on Althouse!!

Hooah, bitches!!


Inga said...

So strange that they feel that a shelter in place order/ request for approximately one day was tantamount to a violation of the Consitution, overreact much? Nothing wrong with being concerned about maintaining and protecting freedoms, but this constant knee jerk reaction to anything that happens under an Obama administration has become bizarre.

Alex said...

Ritmo - the bottom line is liberals declared martial law for an entire city and you're ok with that.

Roger J. said...

Michael: going to my brother's place on the sea of abaco halfway between marsh harbor and hopetown--will be fishing the east side of great abaco

Alex said...

Inga - what's really scary is how you try to find endless justifications for the whittling away of our freedoms. All in the name of protecting Dear Leader.

Achilles said...

O Ritmo Segundo said...

"Liberals, moderates, Bostonians: Please realize that the
There are no constitutional concerns about the Dzhokhar Tsarnaev case. It's about the fact that images of empty streets are SCARY!!!"

Dry your tears and sniffles. You will have other opportunities to convince people this military style roll out was effective and necessary for the safety of the serfs.

As others have pointed out a good bloodhound would have done a better job of finding the guy than all of that military style hardware.

Palladian said...

I've seen some reports supposedly based on police scanner traffic that the high volume fire was dummy rounds or noisemakers - to confuse and intimidate the suspect.

I was listening to the live scanner traffic and I can confirm that this is correct. The volley of fire was dummy rounds. They also used flashbangs. An order not to return fire was also repeated many times.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

They wouldn't feel huffy if evacuation/shelter orders occurred pursuant to a foreign bombing raid on us. It's the fact that it was used to root out a domestic terrrrrist that makes them feel upset. Enemies abroad/"others" can be used to justify anything, to them. The perpetuation of evil among us right in our own streets, however, is also something that helps them feel free.

edutcher said...

somefeller said...

And I do believe the people have always had free access to come and go as they want. One of those things covered by the Ninth Amendment.

Was anyone arrested for coming and going as they pleased in the Boston metro area? And if so, what were the circumstances of the arrests? Once again, please provide specific factual examples of incidents and the Constitutional rights violated. Thanks.


We haven't heard yet, so wse're supposed to act as if it didn't happen, but it's funny how some of these things take a few days to percolate up.

But, even if no one was "arrested" (good thinking there, little Sturmmann), that has no bearing on whether the Constitution was violated, now does it?

Nice try, though, wanting to shift things to a narrower plane so you can construe them your way.

edutcher said...

O Ritmo Segundo said...

They wouldn't feel huffy if evacuation/shelter orders occurred pursuant to a foreign bombing raid on us

In that case, there would be some form of martial law.

Palladian said...

Because of all the surveillance and government encroachment into our lives......what did it actually prevent?

Very good question, and I'm (sort of) surprised that so many so-called liberals and liberty-minded conservatives seem o.k. with it.

Alex said...

This lockdown was a test run for all the nation's mayors to see how compliant the American people are to tyranny. Obviously quite. Let's see them try this in Texas.

bagoh20 said...

The shutdown may or may not have helped; that's debatable. Regardless, I think it's a very bad precedent. From now on, it will be expected for every emergency and there are many more dangerous than these guys.

Because future terrorists will expect it, they won't be so stupid, and will just sit tight, or get out quick before the lockdown. Then the problem is when do you lift it? You have an attack, a lockdown, and then nothing happens, nobody gets caught, and we are just hiding under the covers, waiting... for how long? The city losing millions, sick people missing doctor appointments, court dates rolled back, time sensitive commerce and other things possibly irreversibly delayed.

Most important is how wonderfully satisfying that is to the terrorists. We just made terrorism a lot more rewarding, and a lot more likely.

It was a dumb overreaction, and the opposite of standing strong in the face of our enemies. It was a fearful cowering from a couple of third rate cowards. Their supporters were probably a little ashamed about these guys, until we made it into a huge success for them. The pros are gonna have a field day with us now.

Alex said...

Palladian - is it really? Liberals and conservatives are simply 2-sides of a fascist coin.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Ritmo - the bottom line is liberals declared martial law for an entire city and you're ok with that.

As long as the city is, Image-Fearer. I'm a bit federalist on that. Boston has a long tradition of prudish busy-bodying (started with the Puritans, hello?), and I am not so stupid as to think that I'll be able to stop that.

Also, there's the fact that it helped, it was voluntary (not an order), and the sweet realization that it sticks in conservatives' craw to react so apoplectically to an example of citizens not hating and warring with each other or their elected officials. Sorry, elected servants.

Alex said...

bagoh - I have a feeling that the liberals will be quite smug with the lockdown because it worked this time. It will take a few more fruitless lockdowns before people will begin to wake up to creeping fascism.

Alex said...

Try this in Waco, Texas.

Roger J. said...

It seems to me the problem with things like mandatory evacuation orders and lockdown orders is they simply aren't enforceable--the numbers of police required to enforce them in a major urban center like Boston would be quite large and take away resources from the manhunt--but that's just my take.

DCPI said...

Bagoh20 makes a really good point. The lockdown just raised the payoff for those seeking to cause chaos. A couple smallish bombs shut down a city ...

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Palladian - is it really? Liberals and conservatives are simply 2-sides of a fascist coin.

Don't stop him. He's doing the self-pitying thing to rally his spirits about going voteless.

Votelessness. A libertarian affliction.

Achilles said...

Aridog said...
"Well, I'll be damned, conservative to the bone, yet....I've finally up and gone done it...I'm cussed as a progressive liberal!!

Victory on Althouse!!

Hooah, bitches!! "

And you did that by swallowing your ability to think critically and rationally about the effectiveness of tactics used by the state and accepted the imposition of armed occupation when a bloodhound and a drone would have worked better. Any decent drone operator would have been able to track a squirter from the original shoot out and a couple of trained dogs would have been able to track a bleeding man with ease. No need for citywide lockdowns and tanks in the street.

Alex said...

Ritmo - so what you're saying is Boston is filled with a bunch of sheep who have no problem obeying their government masters. That's very enlightening. Also the fact that you believe it's a GOOD thing for a city resident to blindly obey their government.

Alex said...

Ritmo - I'd rather have my principles then votes. At least my soul is intact.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

I meant to say, "He's on a roll".

It's like that scene in Animal House where Belushi asks if it was over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

When Palladian or another glib goes on about mainstream fascism indistinguishable between right and left, you've just got to let them vent. It's cute, really.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

That's not what I said.

Ritmo - I'd rather have my principles then votes. At least my soul is intact.

A soul that no voter can relate to. Enjoy!

jr565 said...

Ok, so the guys may have bombs.Hypothetical. Suppose there were three brothers, not two. And after all of this one of the brothers was still at large, and the authorities believed that he was going to set off an even bigger bomb in the next few days.
You have the younger brother in custody now, and we've already withheld Miranda.
Can we waterboard him? Can we hold him indefinitely? The guy at large does have bombs you know. And as Inga argued, that justifed a lockdown of all Of boston not to mention a suspecion of Miranda for a suspect.
What if a standard interrogation doesn't work too well and the brother doesn't want to give any more information and the clock is ticking on the third brothers wheareabouts.

Inga said...

Amazing how the experts here ASSUME they didn't use blood hounds, how it's ASSUMED that they know all the inside info on the rational for the decisions made by the Feds and the BPD. So many armchair heros.

Dejan Lazarev said...

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Inga said...

Aridog, that's what you get for making sense here, ya get called a Progressive, lol.

Michael said...

RogerJ. I have fished the marls on the west side of Abaco. Never fished on the east side other than out on the south end of Green Turtle. You will have a blast. If they are tailing you can still, after all these years of the use of the fly, , do well with a light Crazy Charlie. Let us know how you do.

bagoh20 said...

This wasn't imposed, it was requested, and obedient citizens followed. I'm not sure how I feel about the following. It's great to see so many people voluntarily try to help the authorities stop these guys, but it also makes me squeamish that they would all fall in line with such a dumb idea with such terrible optics. And real fascism always starts voluntarily.

It made sense near the immediate perimeter, but not area-wide. That was just sheepish herd mentality, which has lead to really bad things in history.

Michael K said...

" The fact they did not go on the run, but rather (apparently) thought they could just blend back into the population was their fatal error."

They were right until the real hero, the guy whose legs were blown off, woke up from anesthesia and described the bomber to the FBI. Without him, we might be still wondering who they are.

I stopped reading comments when Ritmo appeared. Downhill from there.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

Christ. Even would-be conserva-darling Chris Christie told his state's residents what "IDIOTS!" they'd be for staying outside or on the beach during a hurricane. But I guess that was before the Obama hug, so we can no longer praise him for encouraging that "lockdown".

You guys are just becoming more and more of a self-parody as the years go by. Enjoy the wilderness.

Cedarford said...

One good reason for the lockdown not covered was the US had some high tech assets involved in the search - essentially coverage from the air using FLEER and tying it into GPS grids. There was a helicopter fleet overhead, and I'm guessing some military assets not discussed, like planes, drones, satellites.

They were looking for the infrared signature of someone outside a house, on the move or bunkered down in a wood thicket, etc.
Lockdown meant it was a lot easier - no birder taking a walk through woods, no people out in backyards or moving through streets but (1)cops(2)citizens disregarding the shelter in place request (3)The Islamoid.

Cops were wearing "tags" and also in groups, unlike the solo Islamaoid. So they would be filtered out as a target to investigate, fast. But I think the IR detection system still got overloaded with thousands of "heroes" running about everywhere.

And with all that high tech and thousands of "heroes" and all their new Homeland Security toys, I am mystified the cops were unable to get a dog team together to follow a blood and scent trail from the car to the Islamoid. A trained search dogs nose is something our high tech still cannot equal.

jr565 said...

O Ritmo wrote:
if this were carried out by Bush what would the left's reaction be?

It was not "carried out by" or ordered by Obama you shit-for-brains so time to shut your pie-hole with the predictably never-ending run-on sentences.

Carried out by Bush means that all policies that occur in govt eventually make their way up to Bush. It would be Bush's America, and an example of the type of policies that Bush wrought. In other words, the left would say it was Bush's fault.
Just as all military failures, made their way up to Bush.
Some low level grunt put a panty on a prisoner at Abu Ghraib. Bush's fault.

Roger J. said...

Michael--my brother's place is on Lubbers Quarter Cay--the west side has a very nice flat that I can walk to from his place. Now I confess to a grievous sin: when the tide turns I spread some chum (crushed crabs and chopped up lobster from supper the night before. Waters a bit deep to see tailing fish, but the chum trick works pretty well.

bagoh20 said...

You know, if you can make $85/hr working online at home, this shutdown stuff is fine.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

I stopped reading comments when Ritmo appeared. Downhill from there.

Lol! "Downhill". Heh. You go right ahead and build your political wilderness way up high in the sky, Michael K. Just where it belongs, Michael. Like a comforting nest to a species of giant birds.

Anyway, it's like the saying about how neurotics build castles in the sky. While psychotics live in them.

Which are you, Mr. K.? Are there many other conservatives up there with you?

Michael said...

RogerJ. I have fished the marls on the west side of Abaco. Never fished on the east side other than out on the south end of Green Turtle. You will have a blast. If they are tailing you can still, after all these years of the use of the fly, , do well with a light Crazy Charlie. Let us know how you do.

AprilApple said...

The media spent most of its energy focusing on speculation and lies. It must be right-wing terrorism! tax payer! tea party! whitey! Which is just pro-democrat shit.
Journalism is dead in this country.

The collective radical leftwing agenda "news" was WRONG AGAIN.

Inga said...

"You know, if you can make $85/hr working online at home, this shutdown stuff is fine."

4/20/13, 12:44 PM

That sounds like a Chechen name.

jr565 said...

But just to clarify it further Ritmo (since you are such a dullard), suppose this was carried out in a Red State by a Red state governor, while Bush was president.
What would the lefts reaction be to him locking down all of the state to search for a bomber, and to then suspend his Miranda rights.
And lets not forget the Moore phrase "There is no terrorist threat. There is no terrorist threat" and the idea that any increase in threat levels was fear mongering.
How would the left have treated his capture and the pre police state lock down?

bagoh20 said...

Of course, a lockdown makes it easier to find these guys, but these guys will never happen again, and do we really want to do whatever it takes to make it easier. Because, that's an open invitation to more terrorism. At terrorist mixers I attend, they talk among themselves about how they can transform us into a common third world police state and destroy our "precious freedom" that they despise. Yesterday was a huge victory for them with that. At least that's how they see it. Victory is motivating.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

I know, jr. There, there. OBAMA DID IT, right? (Except that he didn't). Active crime scenes are exactly where we need to draw our liberal constitutional limitations and guarantees. We get it. Sad how fascist we've become. Carry on and chin up, little one.

Inga said...

Bagoh, how could they see it as a victory, looked more like a bumblefuck.

CWJ said...

Palladian,

Thank you for the clarification on the dummy rounds and flash-bangs.

FWIW, the news story on Yahoo is pretty lame. Saying he was apprehended after "an exchange of gunfire" and that after boat guy phoned in his location that it was not long before the police "tracked him down". I suppose both can be attributed to lazy "Liberian tanker limped into port" writing.

CWJ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alex said...

Chris Matthews and Michael Moore sure look like shit stain about now. But will Ritmo condemn their knee-jerk accusations against white males?

Alex said...

So knee-jerk racist speech is A-OK when it's aimed at while males, but not ok against other groups.

jr565 said...

I know, jr. There, there. OBAMA DID IT, right? (Except that he didn't). Active crime scenes are exactly where we need to draw our liberal constitutional limitations and guarantees


IF it were Bush's America you wouldnt be splitting such hairs.
And active crime scenes where you would get mirandized would be the exact place to draw our liberal constitutional limitations and guarantees.

Roger J. said...

re Inga's question to Bagho: I don't see it is a victory, but I think Bag's point was valid: Terrorists look at the response as well to learn. Now these two didn't appear to on the varsity, but I am reasonably sure that seeing sections of a major city shut down with some degree of loss of economic productivity, then they might consider that productive from their standpoint--"victory" for a terrorist may be different than your version of victory.

Baron Zemo said...

I can't believe that they suspended his Miranda rights. What a joke. Every fuckin' lawyer in the world is gonna be on that like white on rice.

Put this guy in front of Ruth Buzzi Ginsberg and he walks.

Good work there guys.

O Ritmo Segundo said...

I don't even know what horrible outrage of the day Chris Matthews and Roger Moore are alleged to have committed, Alex. You'll have to fill me in later.

But I'm out to enjoy the day, now. Can it wait until I return until you rely on me to make that needed political change that the glibs, I guess, cannot? I mean, I understand that political welfare from the other partisans is your bread and butter, so I will do my part. But the sun is out right now. I'll catch you later.

chickelit said...

Cedarford writes: And with all that high tech and thousands of "heroes" and all their new Homeland Security toys, I am mystified the cops were unable to get a dog team together to follow a blood and scent trail from the car to the Islamoid. A trained search dogs nose is something our high tech still cannot equal.

Good point. Why wasn't it tried?

The Bombs. Boston is the kind of city that elevates animal life to the level of human life and so dogs were disqualified from the get-go. Plus, even using them would be tantamount to enslavement.

jr565 said...

And if a terror suspect were not given Miranda in Bush's America, you and all the liberals like you would have your panties in such a wad you'd be sreaming about how fascist America has become.

You know it. I know it. Every single commenter on Althouse knows it.
Althouse knows it. Even Zeus, the labrador knows it.

bagoh20 said...

Inga, What was their goal? Did they achieve it?

chickelit said...

I don't mean to impugn the cops with that last comment; it's the higher ups--the PC conscious leaders--who control things.

Alex said...

As usual Ritmo plays blind, deaf and dumb when it suits him. What a jerk off.

Alex said...

chickelit - dogs love to hunt for shit. Allowing them to engage in one of their passions is not enslavement.

bagoh20 said...

I'm sure they wanted to kill more people than they did, but they got a fantastic consolation price with great photos of deserted city streets in America. Big strong America hiding from a scared bleeding teenager. A lot of Islamic teenagers are likely seeing this guy as a great success.

garage mahal said...

Garage. I was confounded by the lack of bloodhounds. A good hound can follow a trail three or four days old if there is moisture in the air (note the capture of James Earle Ray after he escaped from Brushy Mtn prison). May be that they dont use them in that part of the world.

This dude had to have absolutely reeked of gunpowder and bomb making parts for one thing. He was leaving some sort of trail of leaked blood behind. And, they should have been able to pick up his scent from the car they carjacked. I'd rather see dogs running around my neighborhood looking for someone rather than relying on some cop all jacked up on sugar donuts and caffeine spraying rounds everywhere trying to be the hero.

chickelit said...

@Ritmo: The facts suggest that lifting the curfew led to finding the perp. Not ruling it out, but it doesn't sound like the authorities located him first with infrared and then called the boatowner and said "would you mind looking out there to see if things look right?" It happened the other way around. Do you contest this on the basis of fact?

jr565 said...

O Ritmo wrote:
I don't even know what horrible outrage of the day Chris Matthews and Roger Moore are alleged to have committed, Alex. You'll have to fill me in later.

Or you can actually listen to it or read about it yourself. We shouldn't have to do your homework for you.

furious_a said...

April 15, 1395, Battle of the Terek River, northern Chechnya...

...Tarmirshrin Khan/Timur the Lame/Tamerlane's army annihilated the Golden Horde's forces and followed up by razing its cities and looting its trade routes.

At least as plausible as "Tax Day. Patriot's Day.".

Alex said...

Ritmo pretends he's so smart.

chickelit said...

chickelit - dogs love to hunt for shit. Allowing them to engage in one of their passions is not enslavement.

You missed my sarcasm.

CWJ said...

just read that Boat Guy's house was about a mile from the earlier shoot-out. I have no idea if that is true. But if it is, that seems to me to be one small perimeter they set up.

bagoh20 said...

"Ritmo pretends he's so smart."

Now we have to admit that we all come here to attempt that illusion, it's just that the rest of us get lucky half the time and actually pull it off.

BaltoHvar said...

furious_a said...

"April 15, 1395, Battle of the Terek River, northern Chechnya..."

T.H.I.S.

Well played, Sir!

Now we have our motive.

Rabel said...

Older brother was interviewed by FBI in 2011 at the request of "a foreign government."

Older brother traveled to Russia in 2012.

Obama thanked Putin for helping in the search.

Claims were made that the FBI had video of one of the bombers placing a bag at the scene of one of the explosions. This video was not released. Why not? The video and images that were released give no reason to suspect the brothers.

Was Russia tracking the older brother? Did Russia have information about a plot and finger the Chechens after the fact?

furious_a said...

Balto: T.H.I.S.

Thank you. Oh, and Tamerlane of yore was Muslim, too.

BaltoHvar said...

Gosh - I hope that what Rabal just said isn't Putin giving Obama a reach-around for being "more flexible"!

Baron Zemo said...

I remember under the Bush Administration when some people said the Patriot act was an abomination and that if we curtailed our constitutional freedom because of terror then the terrorists had won.

Suspend Miranda rights and stop people from freely traveling is what exactly?

What is the difference in these two
scenarios?

I wonder.

Aridog said...

Inga said...

Bagoh, how could they see it as a victory, looked more like a bumblefuck.

Actually, bagoh2o's comment about how lock-down made it easier, but may [will likely] make it harder later, is quite right. What worked now will likely not work again, unless we really do institute marital law....as we've done in our past during "states of insurrection."

As with all Plan A's, you'd better have a B, a C, and D at least when A goes in the toilet. By putting us to that trouble the enemy wins a bit each time...he may view this time a win also, since it measured our responses, and appeared to show our "fear." The enemy in all this is very patient, and this pair of "bumblers" were merely fodder for them.

As for the experts yaking about "FLEER" and tracking dogs, consider whether they actually have a clue...like "FLEER" is spelled "FLIR" for Forward Looking Infra Red...not to mention ever trained and worked with tracking dogs.

somefeller said...

Well, I just had a good workout and am waiting for my club sandwich to be made. And I still see no specific examples of violations of Constitutional rights from Edutcher, just assertions and babble. No surprise.

As I stated before, good job on the part of Boston cops and citizens. I'd agree the lack of bloodhounds or other tracking dogs is worth asking about, but I'm not going to dwell on that. Plus, maybe Romney cut the Massachusetts K-9 corps. Will no one ask that question?

Michael said...

Garage. Agree 100%. I think they dont use hounds up there. They like those drug sniffing Shepards which are useless for tracking.

Plus the cops were stone lucky in this deal. They would not have found them but for the car jacking and the boat owner.

jr565 said...

Aridog wrote:

Actually, bagoh2o's comment about how lock-down made it easier, but may [will likely] make it harder later, is quite right. What worked now will likely not work again, unless we really do institute marital law....as we've done in our past during "states of insurrection."

And the point should be asked? Did it work. Suppose for example that this guy wasnt home. Then no one would have looked at the boat again and then he wouldn't have been arrested. Or suppose he didnt look at his boat on the way out. It's almost blind luck that they got him.

How long would they have continue the lock down? A day? A week? A month?

If there was no lock down but instead this
Guy climbed into the boat to rest and the boat owner went out and saw the boat and called the cops the results might have been the same.

somefeller said...

Baron Zemo says: Suspend Miranda rights and stop people from freely traveling is what exactly?

Miranda rights weren't suspended. Read the link at the top of the comments. Neither were rights of travel. Martial law wasn't declared and it was a voluntary order. Get your facts straight.

AprilApple said...

The terrorists always win a little, don't they? Death and dismemberment. Think of all the added inconvenience we will face.
But this time they lost, too. They lost because one is dead and the other is in custody. I have mixed feelings on the lock-down esp with regard to its size. I have no idea how other terrorists out there think about it. Do they fear being caught that this might dissuade them? I suspect they are so deluded and blinded by their religious ideology that it doesn't matter. They will strike again, and the media will continue to report speculation, false guesswork-as-news and out-and-out lies until it's clear that we were hit yet again by radical Islam.

My biggest fear is the left's gun grab. I want an armed citizenry, especially at times of crisis.

furious_a said...

...how could they see it as a victory, looked more like a bumblefuck.

After the officialdom at the microphone finishes high-fiving everyone, I hope somebody at some War College is gaming worst-case scenarios about this...

Two young Chechen amateurs paralyzed a major American metropolitan area for five days, eluding a major law enforcement mobilization ("outside the cordon, outside the cordon") for most of that time.

Imagine what a Mumbai-sized strike team of seasoned Chechen fighters would have inflicted on that crowd, and on the Boston area as they dispersed from it.

"It could have been worse" because we were lucky and "It's only a matter of time" because lucky isn't a strategy.

Robert Cook said...

"Imagine what a Mumbai-sized strike team of seasoned Chechen fighters would have inflicted on that crowd, and on the Boston area as they dispersed from it."

Imagine how hard it would be for a "Mumbai-sized strike team of seasoned Chechen fighters" to get here.

Rabel said...

Aridog,

Can you give us your thoughts on whether tracking dogs would have been effective?

garage mahal said...

Two young Chechen amateurs paralyzed a major American metropolitan area for five days, eluding a major law enforcement mobilization ("outside the cordon, outside the cordon") for most of that time.

I fear people like Lindsey Graham, Barack Obama, and Carmen Ortiz much more than two Chechen fighters

furious_a said...

Robert Cook: Imagine how hard it would be for a "Mumbai-sized strike team of seasoned Chechen fighters" to get here.

In 2001 nineteen foreign men "got here", took flight training and seized control of four airliners, successfully striking three targets. Mohammed Atta travelled all the way from Hamburg.

In 2002 40 heavily-armed Chechen men and "black widows" infiltrated Moscow and seized 850 hostages in the Dubrovka Theater. It's about 1,200 miles from the Chechen border to Moscow.

See, don't even have to "imagine". You're not paranoid enough.

furious_a said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Baron Zemo said...

I read the link and I also read this from the Washington Post. Now I never believe the mainstream media so it could all be bullshit. But there are a lot of reports that the Justice Dept feels they don't have to issue Miranda warnings to these suspects. Or to you if they suspect you of being a terrorist.

I simply don't trust Eric Holder and Barack Obama.

Palladian said...

I fear people like Lindsey Graham, Barack Obama, and Carmen Ortiz much more than two Chechen fighters

Assuming that you're not being sarcastic, that makes me respect you quite a bit more than I usually do.

Baron Zemo said...

Of course then ten years from now Ruth Buzzi Ginsberg will be setting these guys free.

Good work there Brownie.

furious_a said...

I fear people like Lindsey Graham, Barack Obama, and Carmen Ortiz much more than two Chechen fighters.

Yes, but the former mean well.

bagoh20 said...

The primary reason these guy were caught at all was the video and photos. Once we knew what they looked like so clearly, they were caught. People had to know them, would come forward, and know where they lived, have better photos, and then it's just a short time till they are found. There was no escape once they were identified.

If they had not been so incredibly stupid to choose a target time and place of such overlapping photographic coverage, or if they simply disguised themselves, they would still be loose, and if they escaped the country never caught.

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