March 23, 2013

"As a lawyer I’m appalled.... As a student of art history, I’m moved."

"These men have made art even when it’s against their penal interest... Hip-hop artists frequently lament that the state’s main intervention for young black men is to lock them up. It’s sad that no other intervention happened to support these young men’s obvious talent."

102 comments:

sane_voter said...

Has there been a rap video where the black rappers shoot a white baby in the face because the mother has no money to rob?

Mitchell the Bat said...

"It’s sad that no other intervention happened to support these young men’s obvious talent.

It's good to know that prisons are now equipped with video studios.

It's time for the hurting to stop and the healing to begin!!!

EMD said...

I'm appalled that he was moved.

chickelit said...

sane_voter said...
Has there been a rap video where the black rappers shoot a white baby in the face because the mother has no money to rob?

Are you talking about the news yesterday? I saw that TV report in waiting room. Ghastly

Sam L. said...

Another reason for lawyers getting a bad name.

tiger said...

Ah the vaunted 'tolerance' of liberals: a lawyer impressed by a rap music made by men who have robbed and murdered innocent people.

Disgusting.

Bender said...

A greater and more caring and more truthful intervention would be to not encourage people in the production of crap and then call it "art."

Besides, we have a quite extensive entire system set up, other than jails, to help young black men. They are called schools.

But the problem there, of course, is that all too many young black men have been sentenced to the prison system that makes up our public schools, especially in the cities, together with the tyranny of the teachers' unions, which could give a rat's ass about providing these men with a quality education and ticket out of perpetual poverty and criminality.

James said...

I initially assumed the reference was to juvenile offenders but the article points out that one of those convicted is 35 years old. That's not "young" in my book.

Maguro said...

Where's Norman Mailer when you need him?

Aridog said...


OMG! Gangsta Rap video is acted out for real?! WHO KNEW?

Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls are unavailable for comment...and Snoop Doggie and Jay-Z ain't talkin'....outside of their overt bragging in their raps.

What crap. Pure unadulterated crap. The "intervention" for armed robbery, assault and murder is only against black folks? Oh, yeah...Professor Paul Butler has street cred...as a little prep school Chicago boy thence Yale and Harvard for validation of his street creds. So, yeah...it is "art" to him. He imagines he matriculated at Cabrini Green.

SPIT!

Astro said...

Lightning fast street cred.

chickelit said...

Rap music has been known for violent images and lyrics, but this video, inspired by a song, “The Joy” by Kanye West and Jay-Z, was unusual because some of its featured performers have been charged as members of a real-life robbery team.

I don't listen to hip-hop (Fight The Glower!) but remind me why Kanye West and Jay-Z politically connected.

Bender said...

As far as admitting the entire video into evidence, that would seem to be unduly prejudicial. Any relevance from their access to guns and the car could have been shown from still photographs of the video.

AprilApple said...

Rap music = Enjoy the decline.

Aridog said...

chickelit asks ...

... remind me why Kanye West and Jay-Z politically connected.

Because they both fuck famous chicks with big asses?

Or something.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Steven Brill? Of the late Brill's Content? Golly.

I love the article's breathless reference to the video's "nearly 2000 views on YouTube." Doesn't anyone at the NYT know anything about YouTube? That's minuscule.

Aridog said...

Sorry, I owe an apology ... articles like this sniveling victim shit piece brings out my inner bigot.

Ya just gotta love thumper music where every third move is to grab yo crotch, thumpity thumpity thump...between bragging on robbing and violence as watchodo. Uh huh.

Richard Dolan said...

None of the comments above sees anything artistic in a musical form (I use the term loosely) that has millions of fans, including (probably) the kids of some of the commenters. It put me in mind of some of the folks interviewed in Huber's article (the Philly magazine piece about white/black tensions in a changing urban setting) from last weekend. Team Obama complained that there was no serious dialog across racial lines (that's always code for the black/white line, not any other), but this string like Huber's article is how the white folks' side of that dialog will start if it ever does. the more interesting point would be where it would end up when both sides got into it, in a candid but respectful way.

chickelit said...

It’s sad that no other intervention happened to support these young men’s obvious talent.

Intervention such as...fathers being dads? Mothers seeking more than $tate intervention Somebody of stature and respect bullying from the pulpit?

A lot of self-intervention is missing here too. As James points out, these aren't kids.

Dante said...

“These men have made art even when it’s against their penal interest,” he said. “Hip-hop artists frequently lament that the state’s main intervention for young black men is to lock them up. It’s sad that no other intervention happened to support these young men’s obvious talent.”

This was Art? Or was it a how to video?

Sorun said...

“Let’s Get Free: A Hip-Hop Theory of Justice.”

I wonder how this compares to that classic legal treatise: A Heavy Metal Theory of Justice

chickelit said...

@Richard Dolan: As you've assumed that we is all white folks here and you're concerned about there not being any black folk here to dialog with, why don't you go out and find some and bring them here?

chickelit said...

MDT wrote: I love the article's breathless reference to the video's "nearly 2000 views on YouTube." Doesn't anyone at the NYT know anything about YouTube? That's minuscule.

No kidding. I have a YouTube video with 3,600 views. Most of them happened initially too.

traditionalguy said...

Art lovers are impressed by creation of images that speak to us. And this video speaks to us: it says get a Glock and a concealed carry permit and carry several clips of ammo.

traditionalguy said...

Also see, Jodie Foster in the Brave One.

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"The only building in sight was a small block of yellow brick sitting on the edge of the waste land, a sort of compact Main Street ministering to it, and contiguous to absolutely nothing: that is where I first slung dope."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"A tray of cocktails floated at us through the twilight, and we sat down at a table with the two girls in yellow and three men, each one introduced to us as Yo Dawg."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"Sometimes a shadow moved against a dressing-room blind above, gave way to another shadow, an indefinite procession of shadows, that rouged and powdered in an invisible glass crack pipe."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"There was dancing now on the canvas in the garden; OG pushing young girls backward in eternal graceless circles, superior couples holding each other tortuously, fashionably, and keeping in the corners — and a great number of single girls dancing individualistically or relieving the DJ for a moment of the burden of the turntable or the traps."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"My underwear kept climbing like a damp snake around my legs while I wore my jeans at my knees."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"Sometimes, in my mind, I followed them to their apartments on the corners of hidden streets and stole their jewelry, just because.

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"Out of the corner of his eye G-Zee saw that the blocks of the sidewalks really formed a ladder and mounted to a secret place above the trees he could climb to it, if he climbed alone, and once there he could suck on the malt liquor of life, gulp down the incomparable 40 ounce bottle of wonder."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"Sometimes she and Miss Baker talked at once, unobtrusively and with a bantering inconsequence that was never quite chatter: Hos being Hos.

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"He went out of the room calling 'Ewing!' and returned in a few minutes accompanied by an embarrassed, slightly worn young man, with shell-rimmed glasses and scanty blond hair: Ewing was my bitch."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"There is no confusion like the confusion of a simple mind, and as we drove away Tom was feeling the hot whips of panic. So I bitch-slapped the dude."

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

It’s sad that no other intervention happened to support these young men’s obvious talent.

The chance was missed when they weren't aborted.

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"I see now that this has been a story of the West, after all — Jay-Z and Kanye, Beyonce and Minaj and I, were all Hustlers, and perhaps we possessed some deficiency in common which made us subtly unadaptable to Non-Thug life."

Michael K said...

". His lawyer, Steven Brill, said in a court filing that Mr. Todd had told investigators that he was “involved in the music industry” and “made music videos.”

How does Brill have the time what with advising us about health care and all ?

Something is "killing us" besides health care bills..

Leonard Bernstein started this gangster hip decades ago. No wonder the left loves the Palestinians.

prairie wind said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
prairie wind said...

The judge also rejected a defense request that prospective jurors be questioned about their opinions on violence in rap videos. He said he did not find “The Joy” to be as graphic or violent as the defense had suggested.

“I don’t think you must watch much TV,” the judge said, noting that the video just showed people with guns.


And I'm thinking the judge must not watch much tv news because those reporters make it pretty clear that the mere presence of guns means we're all gonna die.

As for intervention? Law enforcement intervenes in poor communities all the time...SWAT teams serving search warrants, cops stop and frisk people on the street...

Those darned kids should have more respect for the law.

Not making excuses for the guys in this story. Wrong is wrong.

"Wrong is wrong" is a lesson law eforcement needs to learn, by the way.

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"Gatsby, pale as death, with his hands plunged like weights in his coat pockets, was standing in a puddle of water glaring tragically into my eyes: punk-ass bitch."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"Americans, while occasionally willing to be serfs, have always been obstinate about being peasantry. Word."

Mary Beth said...

Art?

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the [video] involved in this case is not that.

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"Her face, above a spotted dress of dark blue crêpe-de-chine, contained no facet or gleam of beauty but there was an immediately perceptible vitality about her as if the nerves of her body were continually smouldering from smoking crack."

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

If you thought my previous post was a little harsh, how about if it had been directed at this fellow.

click link

Looks like it's beginning.

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"I knew the other gangstas and young hustlers by their first names, and lunched with them in dark, crowded restaurants on little pig sausages and mashed potatoes and coffee."

Edward Lunny said...

As a citizen I'm appalled as well. I'm appalled that the tyranny known as gun control was unable to prevent these derelicts from preying on the public. I'm appalled that this lawyer and the fish wrap the article appeared in are so clueless as to the ongoing failure of the tyrannical lawfare that they support.
" It’s sad that no other intervention happened to support these young men’s obvious talent.” No, what is sad is that the government in that city and state willingly strip their population of the means, a very effective means, to terminate the behaviours so warmly embraced by both this attorney and the fish wrap that interviewed him. One armed citizen could have ended the "unfortunate" turn that these derelicts chose in life. They should be grateful that they are still alive.
Good grief ,that this nitwit attorney and this story are what passes for commentary these days is disturbing and profoundly disappointing.

creeley23 said...

It's no surprise to discover that Paul Butler, the lawyer quoted, is black, a graduate of Yale and Harvard Law School and now is a law professor at Georgetown.

Our liberal elites at work, making a better world for everyone, or at least for the people they care about.

ricpic said...

What distance is there between an art loving liberal and Hermann Goering? None.

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"At least once a fortnight a corps of hookers came down with several hundred one-dollar bills and enough stripper poles to make a Strip Club of Gatsby’s enormous garden."

ricpic said...

The state just locks up young black men? Ya mean they're walking down the street minding their bidness and the state swoops down and locks them up...for being black? Rotten state.

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"A breeze blew through the room, blew curtains in at one end and out the other like pale flags, twisting them up toward the frosted wedding-cake of the ceiling, and then rippled over the wine-colored rug, making a shadow on it as wind does on the sea: then Gatsby Made It Rain."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"After a little while Mr. Gatz opened the door and came out, his mouth ajar, his face flushed slightly, his eyes leaking isolated and unpunctual tears. White Lines: Don't Do It."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"When the melody rose, her voice broke up sweetly, following it, in a way contralto voices have, and each change tipped out a little of her warm human magic upon the air. Then I rapped about my Bentley."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"I suppose the latest thing is to sit back and let Mr. Nobody from Nowhere make love to your wife. In prison."

betamax3000 said...

"Gatsby’s notoriety, spread about by the hundreds who had listened to his raps and so become authorities on his past, had increased all summer until he fell just short of being news: then came the shooting."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"There was a ripe mystery about it, a hint of bedrooms up-stairs more beautiful and cool than other bedrooms: G-Zee was proud of his Crib."

betamax3000 said...

Fitzgerald Gangsta Robot says:

"For Beyonce was young and her artificial world was redolent of orchids and pleasant, cheerful snobbery and Producers which set the rhythm of the year, summing up the sadness and suggestiveness of life in new tunes: Bow Down."

Chef Mojo said...

I'm pretty much in awe of betamax3000 right now. Thematic harmonic convergence.

betamax3000 said...

@Chef Mojo --

Thank you. Although Ann is going to need to replenish the Gatsby sentence shelves soon...

wyo sis said...

As a human being I'm unmoved by the declaration that there is anything remotely resembling art going on here.

furious_a said...

Dude, making a rap video of this crime spree is the best idea we've ever had.

Everything comes back to the Simpsons.

furious_a said...

If Mr. Brill like rap music so much, how come he ain't smilin'?

Say "Yo Baby, Yo!"

Fernandinande said...

"A Hip-Hop Theory of Justice.”

As an idiot, I'm impressed.

Bruce Hayden said...

This sort of thing makes me sad. This is a natural result of progressive social engineering. Fatherless childrearing is encouraged by the left, and, as a result, so many youths are never adequately civilized. Now, the resulting social disfunctionality is glorified by gangsta rap and the like.

The basic problem is not that a lot of inner city blacks are in prison because whitey wants to keep them down, but, rather, that they are quite often criminal, never having been fully civilized through having a father, and then wife and children. These fatherless males make up the bulk of those in prison, and do so because they are criminals. And this trend is not helped by glorifying the criminality, which is what is going on here.

Should their acts be criminalized? I think that that is necessary for an ordered society. We are often talking murder, assault, armed robbery, etc., and I will submit that no society can continue to exist, and, indeed thrive, if that sort of behavior is not criminalized and prosecuted.

These do-gooder liberals and progressive would do much better by attacking the origins of the problem, and not to sympathize with its victims, while continuing to pursue policies that only make the situation worse. Which is why that attorney talking about the art is a tool - with his background and advantages, he might be able to make a difference. Instead I think it likely that he will make things worse.

LarsPorsena said...

Their 'art' can only be surpassed by a good snuff film.

whoresoftheinternet said...

Black people are savages. Film at 11.

edutcher said...

The headline says it all - Stars of a Violent Rap Video Are Found Guilty of Violent Crimes in Real Life.

And they're surprised - that's the best part.

PS When, exactly, did rap become "art"?

Must have missed it.

madAsHell said...

I'm beginning to think we have two sets of standards; black and white.


Mary Beth said...

How many NYT articles sympathize with the guys with the Mercedes over the bodega owners and deliverymen that they victimize?

bgates said...

Hip-hop artists frequently lament that the state's main intervention for young black men is to lock them up.

If a person has not committed a crime, the state should not intervene in his life.

SOJO said...

Bottom line there really isn't that much demand for music and (fine)art outside nursery school and the retirement home. Very few people get to make a living at it. There is more demand for digital arts, but that's not quite the same thing. There is no reason that the state should do "an intervention" for them to do their art.

Having said all that, it's true that the only solution the state offers is to throw them in prison, but remedial art therapy isn't the answer either.

Here's Snoop Dogg back in his 20s on the same situation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWTKWc3OHu0

whoresoftheinternet said...

Black people gonna black.

Lefties gonna make excuses for them. And blame whitey for black behavior.

Enjoy the decline!

Aridog said...

SOHO utters...

Here's Snoop Dogg back in his 20s...

Oh yeah, nothing like the old G-Funk scam....a plate of pure shit sold to countless whiteys for many dollars. 12% of the population suckers 50% of it and gets rich glorifying crime and violence.

SOJO said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SOJO said...

@Aridog: Yeah, do you have a comment on his point in the interview? Which was basically "I got out, but there's a bunch of ppl who have a high school degree with a B or C average who have no future." I grew up up the way from Long Beach and what he was saying is/was perfectly true.

All of which is even more true today when there are a bunch of people with college degrees and an A average who have little future either.

SOJO said...

And key to his point was that a lot of those people *want to work* and there's nothing, no out for them. It won't eradicate violence because some people will always be violent, but it will reduce it.

Bruce Hayden said...

Black people are savages. Film at 11.

Nothing of the sort. Blacks though are the most devastated by the progressive attempts at social engineering, and that is mostly because when LBJ launched his War on Poverty, essentially subsidizing bastardry (i.e. fatherless child rearing), the Black community was the most vulnerable for several historic reasons. One was a somewhat weak family structure due to their slavery past. Another was a high level of poverty, a result of both their slavery past and Jim Crow in the century after their emancipation. Now compounding this though is the educational differences between the two sexes in the Black community, where college educated women are significantly more common than college educated males, along with the natural tendency of women preferring to marry up, and not down.

These disfunctional males are not coming from two (straight) parent families, but rather, are almost all were raised by single mother, who mostly are incapable of doing the job that a father would normally provide. Most black males coming from two parent families do just fine. They may go to prep schools, top law schools, become lawyers, etc., but are highly unlikely to actually be imprisoned for violent crimes, and, thus, are unlikely to do well at rap.

In other words, it isn't a racial problem, but rather, is a social disfunction problem caused by progressive attempts at social engineering, with Blacks being the biggest victims.

Aridog said...

SoJO ...yeah, I have a comment on the topic. I think desperation applies to everyone caught in a hopeless circumstance, not just blacks. G-Funk made a bundle selling back beat sympathy for criminal life to white shit-heads. So, no, Snoop ain't telling me anything I didn't already know before he was born.

I was born and grew up in Detroit, got sent to a nice prep school to be away from it all, came back anyway, and live a bit over 200 yards outside a west side ghetto now, and worked in the city center until retired.

I live a short hop from where the phrase "Detroit, a town without Malice" was hatched. That'd be 23rd & Warren. I knew the principle officer involved, who passed away from cancer recently....and know well Ralph's dope house where it all happened in front of...which finally burned mercifully, but you can still get a pop out front from the sub-teen kid at the curb....right in front of the fading "malice" memorial graffiti...to a guy who died for his dope life.

Every day as I drove across Warren Ave to work I saw children going to school, from families living in squalor that makes Compton, Ca look like Beverly Hills. Nobody is wearing $200 sneakers, they are just striving to grow up....and unless some idiots covered with bling distract them with 101% bullshit, they will grow, and probably turn out to be better people than me. That wouldn't be all that hard.

Just what do you or Mr Snoop propose be provided for the yearning young of today in rough places? Just WHO is responsible for their future?

Aridog said...

Bruce Hayden said ...

In other words, it isn't a racial problem, but rather, is a social dysfunction problem caused by progressive attempts at social engineering ...

Perfectly said.

SGT Ted said...

My dads intervention wsas to beat my ass with a belt when I was being a punk nad borderline criminal. Lots of rebellious youngsters my age were dealt with thus. We turned out fairly well.

Maybe we could do that? Lots cheaper than juvi.

ricpic said...

Just WHO is responsible for their future?

Well, it sure as hell ain't the state.

Number One their parents. Emphasis on the plural. A Mom AND a Dad. This will never become the norm again as long as the state, in the name of compassion, barges in and displaces both parents, but mainly displaces the Dads.

Number Two all the aunts and uncles and neighbor ladies and neighbor gents and older cousins who stand in judgment against misbehavior in no uncertain terms and SHAME the miscreant back into line.

Number Three the Reverend who reintroduces the Ten Commandments as such and not as ten suggestions and publicly upbraids a young person who breaks them.

A pipedream? Not if the state implodes and the laws of the copybook headings return. Otherwise yes, a pipedream.

Carl Spackler said...

to follow the lawyers logic, these poor men have unwittingly gained access to the only intervention available to them. sad, but im laughing.

whoresoftheinternet said...

@Bruce Hayden:

Man, you really are drinking the kool-aid, aren't you?

the Black community was the most vulnerable for several historic reasons.
---otherwise known as self-inflicted.


One was a somewhat weak family structure due to their slavery past.
----Yawn. This idea that black families were en masse forcibly ripped apart is such an undocumented claim outside of anecdote. Some were sold, yes. Most were kept together---it only made sense. Why have a worker fiending to run away for his family?

Another was a high level of poverty, a result of both their slavery past and Jim Crow in the century after their emancipation.
=--Their poverty was caused by their inherent criminality and their low IQ. Both of which are nature, not nurture. Jim Crow happened because violent, stupid blacks were roaming about the South committing rape, robbery, and murder, and ruining communities.

Now compounding this though is the educational differences between the two sexes in the Black community, where college educated women are significantly more common than college educated males,
--this is not causing black families from being together. In Western Africa, women are often breadwinners. But there are no families like in civilized countries--just sperm donors who occasionally come back for some food and to hump.

along with the natural tendency of women preferring to marry up, and not down.
--If all races were equal, these women would be marrying richer men of other races. They aren't, because they aren't equal; black women are significantly less attractive overall than non-black women.

Most black males coming from two parent families do just fine.
---lol. Controlling for poverty/family structure shows blacks commit more crimes than non-blacks at the same level. That includes asians, whites, browns, reds, and an other permutation you can think of.

All things being equal, blacks are more criminal.


They may go to prep schools, top law schools, become lawyers, etc., but are highly unlikely to actually be imprisoned for violent crimes,
---Lie. Yes they are--moreso than anyone else at their poverty/family level.

and, thus, are unlikely to do well at rap.
---jigga wha? Kanye West is a middle-class suburban darky brat. Gangsta rap was a record company creation designed to keep out people not under record company contract by declaring that "street cred" and "image" had to be "earned"---and that is only given by other rappers under contract with the record company. It's a PR strategy. These "rappers" are just musicians with PR making them appear rough and hard---much like Gospel singers use PR to make themselves look wholesome.

In other words, it isn't a racial problem,
---Their persistent low IQ and high criminality belies this postulate.

Social engineering hasn't helped---but blacks have gone savage because they are savage.

The sooner you take the red pill on this...the better.

chickelit said...

Whores makes Bill Shockley sound moderate.

Chef Mojo said...

Gee, whores. You must be quite the butt boy over at Stormfront.

I've never seen such a collection of patently idiotic drivel in my life. In fact, I can't believe it's real. You're a parody. You have to be. No one could write something that moronic and still be a functioning human.

I get it now. Parody. You're imitating a subhuman pussy racist punk grunting out a few words for his Sturmfuher daddy, before gnawing on daddy's knob for the forth time today.

That's some pretty funny shit! Clever.

Does your character swallow or spit?

Enjoy that decline, punk!

whoresoftheinternet said...

@chickelit:

Your denial of reality wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't affect me. Unfortunately, your head-in-sand, fingers-in-the-ears refusal to even allow the hypothesis I present to be granted fair audience in your head has caused a vast spoils system where criminal, low-IQ behavior in one group is both rewarded and ignored, and those victimized by such behavior are punished for fighting back.

And your cheap, unintelligent insult of Shockle'ys arguments--which of course you don't parse, you just hand-wave away---speaks volumes about your close mindedness.

whoresoftheinternet said...

@Chief Mojo:

The diversity police offer you a nice pat on the back for your point-point-sputter-offer-no-logical-retort-character-attack comeback.

But at the end of the day, blacks will still have a lower IQ than the average, and still engage in criminality at a higher rate than other groups.

I've never seen such a collection of patently idiotic drivel in my life. In fact, I can't believe it's real. You're a parody. You have to be. No one could write something that moronic and still be a functioning human.
--_So you deny that blacks have a lower IQ on average? Or that they commit crimes at a higher rate than other groups? Both are well documented. Hand waving won't change that.

Chef Mojo said...

Heh. Ok, whores. I'll play along for laughs!

You betcha! Blacks have lower IQs and commit more crime!

So? What then? Does whores get the gas vans fired up, or build death camps? Just curious!

Meanwhile, whoresoftheintertubes Sturmfuher daddy-o is bellowing in the background, "Whore! Komen zie here und stand still vile I fire mein V2 atchoo!"

So, while this is going on, the rest of functioning humanity goes forward, understanding that only IQ levels to the extremes are sometimes indicative of certain pathologies, but overall there is no correlation. Just about anyone with the slightest modicum of intelligence understands that, especially when they're not gulping down Sturmfuher's rocket to London.

Bruce Hayden said...

=--Their poverty was caused by their inherent criminality and their low IQ. Both of which are nature, not nurture. Jim Crow happened because violent, stupid blacks were roaming about the South committing rape, robbery, and murder, and ruining communities.

Yeh - I can see the allure of this sort of philosphy. If start with the supposition that Blacks are stupid, criminal, and lazy, then it they must be protected and taken care of, and whitey has no responsibility for making their state so much worse through attempts at progressive social engineering. It is all for their own good, and we are just trying to help them, etc.

But, the interesting thing is that one of the biggest determinents as to whether Blacks succeed or fail in life is whether or not their ancestors experienced the American slavery experience. For every Condi Rice, whose ancestors were probably slaves, you have probably more Black success stories from the descendants of immigrants like Colin Powell and Barack Obama II, whose ancestors were not American slaves. And, for a lot of the Black success stories whom I know, even if both parents weren't descended from slaves, at least one wasn't - and that esp. seems true if the father isn't slave descended.

So, yes, I can see the allure of thinking of Blacks as stupid, lazy, jungle bunnies. It allows us to ignore what Whitey has done to make their lot worse, and esp. since the Civil Rights Acts were passed some 50 years ago. And, really calls for us to do more for them benevolently. But, the statistics say that many, if not most, Blacks do just fine if they come from intact families. There just aren't nearly as many intact Black families any more, thanks to government subsidization of fatherless childrearing and legitimzation of bastardry.

creeley23 said...

It'd be nice to see some numbers and cites in this discussion.

Bruce Hayden said...

--_So you deny that blacks have a lower IQ on average? Or that they commit crimes at a higher rate than other groups? Both are well documented.

The problem though is that you are arguing causation, when you have correlation at best, when it comes to criminality. Most Blacks these days come from fatherless families, and coming from fatherless families is tied very closely to criminality - most of those in prison, regardless of race, fall into this category. And, that is the important thing to keep in mind, that it is far more likely that Black criminality, along with White criminality, is a direct result of being raised in a fatherless household, than it is a result of anything racial.

Keep in mind that Black criminality has risen along with the Black illigitimacy rate, to the point where some 3/4 of blacks are now born outside wedlock, for the opposite situation some 50 years ago when the War on Poverty was started, and Monihan wrote his famouse report on "Negro" families.

whoresoftheinternet said...

@Chef Mojo:

Drinking again, are we?

So? What then? Does whores get the gas vans fired up, or build death camps? Just curious!
---We have a gigantic social welfare state and laws and propaganda based on the logic that black failure and crime are the product of evil whitey. It should be immediately dismantled/repealed. No more EEOC/Civil Rights Act/Welfare handouts/discrimination laws.

So, while this is going on, the rest of functioning humanity goes forward, understanding that only IQ levels to the extremes are sometimes indicative of certain pathologies, but overall there is no correlation.
---Have you read the Bell Curve?

Separate from that, black dysfunction---savagery--is not merely a function of their low IQ, as I said. Even controlling for IQ, blacks commit more crimes. This even includes comparisons with recent dark-skinned Hispanic immigrants--the kind heavily involved in human trafficking and drug trade. Low IQ is common in blacks, but other groups and people with similar IQ drops commit far less violent crime and random crime.

Blacks, in addition to low IQ, seem to have a genetic predisposition for anti-civilized behavior---far more than any other group. To be blunt, non-blacks strive towards civilization, blacks strive towards savagery. On average, you are much safer walking in any non-black ghetto than walking in any black one.

Just about anyone with the slightest modicum of intelligence understands that
---IQ is hereditable, as is civilized behavior. You can't make a fish breath oxygen. Plenty of people argue this about IQ and savage behavior, you just shut them out because it so violates your p.c. mentality. You will not allow it to even be considered in your mind.

whoresoftheinternet said...

@Bruce Hayden:

Seriously, man, take the red pill:

Yeh - I can see the allure of this sort of philosphy. If start with the supposition that Blacks are stupid, criminal, and lazy, then it they must be protected and taken care of, and whitey has no responsibility for making their state so much worse through attempts at progressive social engineering. It is all for their own good, and we are just trying to help them, etc.
---No, it starts with the observation that blacks act more savage and with less intelligence than other groups. It starts with the observation that social engineering has exposed the divide between black and non-black behavior. It starts with the observation that everywhere blacks have taken up residence post-Civil War, non-blacks have written about black violence and degeneracy, even pointing out that it is worse than other groups, and that laws were needed to protect people from their behavior.

Observation, not supposition.

And, for a lot of the Black success stories whom I know, even if both parents weren't descended from slaves, at least one wasn't - and that esp. seems true if the father isn't slave descended.
--Legal immigrants are self-selected for those who are future-time oriented---more intelligent, more stable people move so that, 5-10 years later, their lives are better.

But that's just exampleitis--the idea that a few anecdotes prove a statistic. The overwhelming numbers show blacks as savage and dumb.

It allows us to ignore what Whitey has done to make their lot worse, and esp. since the Civil Rights Acts were passed some 50 years ago.
---lmao. Again, you immediately go back to blaming WHITEY for black dysfunction. Yet whitey cannot have exploited an entire continent of people absolutely equal to him in intelligence and ability--that would have fallen apart once the slaves got here. Note that whitey didn't start importing Arab or Chinese or even use Native American slaves; they chose darkies.

In your world view, darkies have no agency. They are merely victims of whitey. Yet if they were equal--civilized and intelligent-- they would not be mere victims.

Your own hypothesis contradicts itself.

And, really calls for us to do more for them benevolently.
---No, it does not.

But, the statistics say that many, if not most, Blacks do just fine if they come from intact families.
---No, the stats show that blacks from intact families are still less intelligent and more violent than non-blacks from the same background. Stop lying.

Open your mind, man. Take the red pill challenge. How much would of black dysfunction and inability to "get ahead" would be explained by low IQ and a genetic dislike of civilized behavior? A lot.

Chef Mojo said...

We have a gigantic social welfare state and laws and propaganda based on the logic that black failure and crime are the product of evil whitey. It should be immediately dismantled/repealed. No more EEOC/Civil Rights Act/Welfare handouts/discrimination laws.

And if that doesn't work?

You obviously find blacks to be a clear and present danger to your view of a preferred white bread society. What happens if your solution has absolutely no effect? Quit evading the answer you racist fuck. You know you wanna round 'em all up, dontcha?

Enlighten me, whores! Tell me what happens when your big ideas to stop the decline result in the same bullshit sprouted by the eugenicists and national socialists? Or are you going to be all merciful and just impose apartheid?

You think you have all the answers this time, right?

You so funny, man! Whew! Had me going there. Heh. You've got this racist parody stuff down!

Chef Mojo said...

Whores, your daddy-o back at Stormfront is looking for your! Says you've got his blue pill, and he needs it for y'all's next session...

whoresoftheinternet said...

@Bruce Hayden:

The problem though is that you are arguing causation, when you have correlation at best, when it comes to criminality.
----a pretty strong correlation between being black and low IQ + criminality.

Most Blacks these days come from fatherless families, and coming from fatherless families is tied very closely to criminality
---Yet it happened to them long before non-blacks began to see fatherlessness rise. And fatherlessness amongst non-blacks still has not risen to black levels, even controlling for poverty.

Fact.



ss of race, fall into this category. And, that is the important thing to keep in mind, that it is far more likely that Black criminality, along with White criminality, is a direct result of being raised in a fatherless household, than it is a result of anything racial.
---No , it is very racial. Blacks have more fatherless families percentage wise than non-blacks, even controlling for poverty. That's racial.

Keep in mind that Black criminality has risen along with the Black illigitimacy rate, to the point where some 3/4 of blacks are now born outside wedlock
---Blacks were always more criminal than non-blacks. And black illegitimacy has risen far more than non-black. Yet you pretend this disparity doesn't exist and never existed.

Fact: black IQ is lower.

Fact: black savagery is higher.

Fact: claiming equivalency is not proving it.

whoresoftheinternet said...

@Chef Mojo:

And if that doesn't work?
---What do you mean by "work"? It will reduce a huge cost on the system and give more deserving people jobs whilst punishing anti-social behavior.

You obviously find blacks to be a clear and present danger to your view of a preferred white bread society.
--Not whitebread. Just non-black.

What happens if your solution has absolutely no effect?
--How will it have no effect? a huge cost to the system is removed and non-blacks will not have to live in fear of offending darkies. Its a win-win!

Quit evading the answer you racist fuck. You know you wanna round 'em all up, dontcha?
---Wouldn't be a bad idea. But the first step is to dismantle the massive privilege the government bestows on them.

Tell me what happens when your big ideas to stop the decline result in the same bullshit sprouted by the eugenicists and national socialists?
--Yawn. Shaming language doesn't work on me.

Or are you going to be all merciful and just impose apartheid?
--South Africa as civilized when apartheid was there. Now it's a shithole run by a monkey running around in a loin cloth.

You think you have all the answers this time, right?
---Just the obvious ones, boy. And it's completely obvious that blacks can't function in a civilized society.

Dante said...

In other words, it isn't a racial problem, but rather, is a social disfunction problem caused by progressive attempts at social engineering, with Blacks being the biggest victims.

They choose to be victims, at this point.

Rich Rostrom said...

Michael K said...
Leonard Bernstein started this gangster hip decades ago.

Nonsenme. As Tom Wolfe noted in "Radical Chic", his famous essay about Bernstein and the Black Panthers, that sort of fashion is hundreds of years old. The French call it nostalgia de la boue.

Sanzida Yasmin said...

As far as admitting the entire video into evidence, that would seem to be unduly prejudicial. Any relevance from their access to guns and the car could have been shown from still photographs of the video.
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