February 18, 2013

"We have a machine with a robot fist that will be programmed to deliver a punch in the chest that inflicts exactly that amount of pain."

A hypo for the clueless.

95 comments:

edutcher said...

You don't want that punch in the chest if you're trying to reach men.

I suggest somewhat further south.

rhhardin said...

What prevents a man from reconfiguring the robot to toss confetti in the air instead?

Much like a hypothetical in an argument.

Ann Althouse said...

"I suggest somewhat further south."

You are missing the point of the hypothetical, which required removing everything sexual from the injury!

Shouting Thomas said...

Well, you misquoted and distorted my statement, Althouse... apparently deliberately.

I made no reference to pain.

Go back and read.

rhhardin said...

Towel snapping is also rape.

Shouting Thomas said...

When I was reading your carrying on about all the imaginary dangers you envisioned that could happen on cruises, Althouse, it became clear to me that you have lived a very soft life.

And, you've been completely sheltered in the soft, boring world of academia for, what... 30 years?

You've become the Princess who fears the Pea under her 30 mattresses.

rhhardin said...

The sexual aspect is what ought not to be in the argument, unless we're going to unwind feminism.

Chip S. said...

Starting this thread was just asking for it, Althouse!

edutcher said...



Ann Althouse said...

I suggest somewhat further south.

You are missing the point of the hypothetical, which required removing everything sexual from the injury!


So am I. That is the one part of the body where no man wants to get hit. Consider the words, "protective cup".

Ask Meade.

Ann Althouse said...

"The sexual aspect is what ought not to be in the argument, unless we're going to unwind feminism."

That's what feminists don't like about the Model Penal Code use of "sexual assault." The term "rape" is preferred, but you can't avoid the fact that it's a particular form of violence that is different from an equivalent injury inflicted in a way that has no sexual component.

It's pretty obvious that we regard the sexual dimension in a radically different way, and those who act like we don't are either: 1. Disingenuous, 2. Dumb, 3. Not living in the real word, or 4. From a foreign country that shall remain nameless.

Chip S. said...

5. Hyper-Aspergy.

edutcher said...

rhhardin said...

The sexual aspect is what ought not to be in the argument, unless we're going to unwind feminism.

Now we come to the real issue...

Shouting Thomas said...

It's pretty obvious that we regard the sexual dimension in a radically different way, and those who act like we don't are either: 1. Disingenuous, 2. Dumb, 3. Not living in the real word, or 4. From a foreign country that shall remain nameless.

Or... 5. Made of tougher stuff than Althouse.

Ann Althouse said...

@edutcher Again, I suspect you are playing a character -- for laughs and to be annoying -- who gets everything wrong.

If not, please think about what is needed in constructing a hypothetical. I had to eliminate sexual content. The fact that it would hurt more to get punched in the balls is not a good criticism of the hypo, which has a calibrate pain infliction mechanism. If the issue to be isolated were how to save energy in tormenting people with my imaginary robot, your idea might work!

Shouting Thomas said...

You're too old and too soft, Althouse, but you would have benefited some years ago by getting out in the world a little bit.

Scott M said...

How many people are watching? It's important...

rhhardin said...

It's pretty obvious that we regard the sexual dimension in a radically different way

How do you get the sexual dimension in in the first place?

What was special about rape was paternalistic protection offered to women, not that it was specially injurious to them.

Scott M said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Inga said...

Shouting Thomas, you're jumping the shark here a bit. Most people, no matter the ethnicity would consider rape or sexual assault in childhood or teen years living an adventurous life, to be somehow preferable to living an average life.

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shouting Thomas said...

Shouting Thomas, you're jumping the shark here a bit. Most people, no matter the ethnicity would consider rape or sexual assault in childhood or teen years living an adventurous life, to be somehow preferable to living an average life.

What an odd statement!

My late wife, Myrna, grew up inside the gangs in Manila. Clearly, she wanted out.

But, she looked back on that life with amusement, and sometimes she missed the action and excitement.

The injuries... well, she put them aside and went on with her life.

Shouting Thomas said...

I haven't lived "an average life" either.

And, no I didn't and don't want that.

I accepted the danger, the injuries and the falls as part of the game.

If you just want to sit on your ass and live "an average life," you're welcome to it. Not for me.

Would bore the hell out of me. I like action, adventure and excitement.

edutcher said...

Ann Althouse said...

@edutcher Again, I suspect you are playing a character -- for laughs and to be annoying -- who gets everything wrong.

You seem to have a thing about being annoyed around Sundays every month or 6 weeks and, trust me, I have no desire to antagonize it or make jokes about it.

I'm just stating a fact any man can verify. There is no place on the masculine anatomy more painful to be struck violently than the scrotum. Sex has nothing to do with it. A guy gets hit there, the big thought running through his mind is not going to be, "There goes that candle-lit dinner tonight"

If we're talking pain, that's the locus.

And, last I looked, you can't be raped there.

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Inga said...

ST, am I mistaken? I recall reading in past statements of yours that Myrna was a victim of rape as a young girl in the Phillipines. Then over in the other rape thread you said she considered her life there not "rough" , but as adventurous.

Lem said...

From a foreign country that shall remain nameless.

Are we teasing today's History of.

edutcher said...

PS I think Ann mistakes the significance of the scrotum in men's minds with the penis.

PPS Shout, I understand it was her normal growing up. That was what she knew and she liked it to an extent.

The She-Wolf of the SS is playing Gloria Steinbrenner.

Lem said...

"We have a machine with a robot fist that will be programmed to deliver a punch in the chest that inflicts exactly that amount of pain."

Its a creature of Obamacare.

Shouting Thomas said...

I think you would find understanding Myrna's outlook impossible, Inga.

I also did for the longest time.

Myrna accepted the danger and the injuries as part of the game of life.

Part of the great adventure of life is that you sometime get hurt, and people sometimes die.

Certainly, Myrna's life was very rough. She didn't see that as something to complain about. I know you will find this very difficult to understand.

Myrna didn't have a high opinion of people complaining about anything. She thought everybody should suck it up and get on with things.

"Everybody is precisely where they should be," she often said. "God has placed us in precisely the position we need to be to learn what we need to learn in this life."

The concepts of fairness so dear to Westerners didn't matter to her. I wouldn't attribute this to anything except Myrna's unique brilliance. It did start with her Chinese/Buddhist heritage.

Inga said...

AGAIN, Edutcher couldn't be more wrong, regarding his analysis of my comment to ST.

Ann eddy isn't playing any game, he really IS that annoying and chronically wrong.

Chip Ahoy said...

The hypothetical that was needed is already provided because boys do get raped too, and man, I bet that hurts worse than a regular rape no matter whom the victim.

garage mahal said...

How many people are watching? It's important...

Ummmmm. Not really in this thought experiment.

Inga said...

ST, here a hypothetical to you. If you and Myrna were to have had children together and one of them were to have been raped as a teen or even as an adult, would her outlook on the sexual injury have been the same as her opinion as to her own sexual injuries? Would she consider it as being a part of living an adventurous exciting life?

EMD said...

If not, please think about what is needed in constructing a hypothetical.

I don't think you need the hypothetical at all.

Sometimes an unwanted dick in an orifice is an unwanted dick in an orifice.

Bob Boyd said...

here's another hypo:
Would you rather get a call from the hospital saying your wife's jaw had broken by an attacker or telling you she had been violently raped?

Shouting Thomas said...

Impossible questions to answer, Inga, because Myrna and I weren't living in the Philippines.

There is a drama to life in the Philippines that doesn't exist here. The struggle of life in the slums of Manila and Cebu is an entirely different world.

I can only say that Myrna thought the experience of her life was superior to that of the American women she met. Why she thought that is a long and complicated story.

As I said, she thought that God placed every person precisely where they needed to be placed, and confronted them with precisely the right challenges.

rhhardin said...

ST, here a hypothetical to you. If you and Myrna were to have had children together and one of them were to have been raped as a teen or even as an adult, would her outlook on the sexual injury have been the same as her opinion as to her own sexual injuries? Would she consider it as being a part of living an adventurous exciting life?

I'd like to show you some ink blots now to find out what certain shapes and colors remind you of.'

`You can save yourself the trouble, Doctor. Everything reminds me of sex.'

`Does it?' cried Major Sanderson with delight, as though unable to believe his ears. `Now we're really getting somewhere! Do you ever have any good sex dreams?'

`My fish dream is a sex dream.'

`No, I mean real sex dreams-the kind where you grab some naked bitch by the neck and pinch her and punch her in the face until she's all bloody and then throw yourself down to ravish her and burst into tears because you love her and hate her so much you don't know what else to do. That's the kind of sex dreams I like to talk about. Don't you ever have sex dreams like that?'

Yossarian reflected a moment with a wise look. `That's a fish dream,' he decided.

edutcher said...

Inga said...

AGAIN, Edutcher couldn't be more wrong, regarding his analysis of my comment to ST.

No, you're playing the game the feminists and the black power types and all the other "community organizers" play:

You're Unhappy, But You Don't Know It And You Need Me To Tell You Why And What To Do About It.

In this case, trying to tell Shout how unhappy his wife was. Don't think it will work.

PS The She-Wolf, for any that haven't noticed, has found her Emmanuel Goldstein.

betamax3000 said...

Re: "If the issue to be isolated were how to save energy in tormenting people with my imaginary robot"

Imaginary. Right. We've seen it in your photos. Pretty powerful little guy.

Inga said...

I am not attempting to tell ST that his wife was unhappy, I am however saying her outlook on life and her experiences are not those of most women, especially western women. She isn't right or wrong, she was different. I'm placing no judgment on that difference, I'm attempting to understand it.

Shouting Thomas said...

She isn't right or wrong, she was different. I'm placing no judgment on that difference, I'm attempting to understand it.

I'm with you there, Inga.

Myrna was an absolutely brilliant individual. I continue to this day to try to understand her life and her outlook.

Unknown said...

"It's pretty obvious that we regard the sexual dimension in a radically different way, and those who act like we don't are either: 1. Disingenuous, 2. Dumb, 3. Not living in the real word, or 4. From a foreign country that shall remain nameless."

Dismissing counter arguments as irrational is one way to win a debate.

edutcher said...

Myrna (if I may refer to her in the familiar) was not a Western woman and she doesn't have to be "understood". It's probably the same reason some of her relatives missed the war years, particularly if they were in the guerillas.

Their lives had a zing all the comfort in the world couldn't replace.

betamax3000 said...

As a Robot proponent in good standing I do not like seeing "rape" and "robots" right next to each other in the tags. "Naked" is OK, but not 'rape'.

Cath said...

I think the hypo is flawed. I'd like to pose the men here a different one:

Your son is a high school freshman. Three senior bullies trap him in the locker room and give him a choice: suck their dicks and walk away without a scratch, or have them break his pinky finger. Which would you rather he chose?

Would it be different if it were your daughter? Would it be different if posting pictures around the school of either event was part of the bargain?

Which one do you think your kid would bounce back from more easily, REALLY?

I don't disagree that our culture may attach more drama to sexual assualt than it always needs, but to pretend it's nothing at all more than physical pain is disingenuous.

garage mahal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
garage mahal said...

A world traveler and a partner led expedition into a remote part of Africa, who were then captured by natives. The Chief lines them up and asks: "Death, or Moogabee?" The first guy thinks about it, and doesn't like the sound of death, so he opts for "Moogabee". Some natives came out and anally rape the first guy. The world traveler is then lined up, and asked again "Death, or Moogabee?" The world traveler thinks about it, doesn't like death of course, but for his honor's sake and his reputation he picks death.

The Chief then says, "Death BY Moogabee".

EMD said...

Death by Mogabee

So they were in Zimbabwe, then.

Ann Althouse said...

Excellent hypo cath.

Leland said...

I like Bob's hypo better.

I didn't comment in the other thread, but I have another proposition. I take no issue in Ms. Cuomo's position and completely agree with her. But as her point is well made, I'll make a poorly stated one. Can we get rid of the term "date rape" from the lexicon? Either it is rape, or it is not. Modifiers don't really change the crime or pain, do they? This is important to me, because my observance is "date rape" has now come to mean any effort at "sexual" advancement even if it never actually results in penetration. This could be things from trying to get an unwanted kiss, touching a date's breast through a shirt, to grabbing a woman's crotch (which depending on how its done would fit my opinion of penetration), to actual unwanted intercourse. This attempt to develop a catchall leads to stupid things like referring to the new Audi commercial as "Rapey" or the song "Baby It's Cold Outside" as a "Date Rape".

Let's protect the terminology, so it has the meaning intended. When it is protected, then Bob's hypo carries the meaning properly.

Leland said...

I'm good with Cath's hypo too, but it was written while I was still typing...

I particularly agree with Cath's last sentence.

Palladian said...

Your son is a high school freshman. Three senior bullies trap him in the locker room and give him a choice: suck their dicks and walk away without a scratch...

When I was a high school freshman, I dreamed of this scenario, but the bullies just wouldn't comply.

garage mahal said...

Wouldn't transvaginal ultrasounds fit the term "rape" under our legal statutes?

Inga said...

Garage, yes. Or about as close to it as one can get.

traditionalguy said...

The irresistible feminism object that there are no legal gender differences has met an unmovable reality object that women need protection from sexual predators.

Splitting hairs with a word game is not going to help. I say reserve Rape Crimes for women that fall prey to predators including Japanese Soldiers under orders to rape them to death with objects.

Inga said...

Also to Garage's question, it may not be violent, but would be unwanted and traumatic.

The Farmer said...

Shouting Thomas said...
You're too old and too soft, Althouse, but you would have benefited some years ago by getting out in the world a little bit.


And you would've benefited by learning not to act like a jagoff. Que sera etcetera.

ed said...

1. My life was not enriched by reading that.

2. I was rather hoping for a Rock'em Sock'em Robots. But with real robots!

3. Definitely looks like I'm not getting that robot today.

wyo sis said...

I'm trying to understand ST's point and every time I think I get it he takes it a step further.
I'm beginning to think that, to him, only people who have lived hard, terrifying or exploited lives have a right to speak about life.

EMD said...

Your son is a high school freshman. Three senior bullies trap him in the locker room and give him a choice: suck their dicks and walk away without a scratch, or have them break his pinky finger. Which would you rather he chose?

I would argue there is more dignity in a broken finger.

Leland said...

See, here's my problem with the expansion of the term:

Garage:Wouldn't transvaginal ultrasounds fit the term "rape" under our legal statutes?

Inga: Garage, yes. Or about as close to it as one can get. then Also to Garage's question, it may not be violent, but would be unwanted and traumatic.

The answer is simply no. If a Doctor recommends such a test and the patient agrees, it is neither unwanted nor forced. It might be an uncomfortable procedure and it might be an unnecessary procedure, but neither of those circumstance alone should mean rape. That a medical exam requires penetrating the anus or vagina; that alone does not make a rape. If afterwards, the patient rather have not had the experience, that is not the time to decide that the doctor has committed a violent crime. Now if the patient refuses the invasive procedure and the doctor carries it out anyway, then that is assault and always has been. We can argue whether such is a sexual assault or rape. But let's not call medical practices rape just because of where they occur.

EMD said...

Also to Garage's question, it may not be violent, but would be unwanted and traumatic

Like an abortion to a baby!, as they say.

Palladian said...

I would argue there is more dignity in a broken finger.

...but less fun!

EMD said...

...but less fun!

Depends on your POV, I guess.

However, would you seriously want to be on the receiving end of forced sex? Sexual orientation really has nothing to do with the hypothetical.

CachorroQuente said...

"Wouldn't transvaginal ultrasounds fit the term "rape" under our legal statutes? "

No.

Inga said...

Yes, if the baby had reached the stage of sentience, felt pain and knew what was happening to it.

Shouting Thomas said...

I'm trying to understand ST's point and every time I think I get it he takes it a step further.
I'm beginning to think that, to him, only people who have lived hard, terrifying or exploited lives have a right to speak about life.


I'm not conveying "points." I see life in terms of stories, and I'm not fond of the ones that contain morals.

Everybody has the right to speak about life.

Some lives are more interesting than others.

Inga said...

"Interesting" is another person's terrifying worst nightmare.

The differences in us is what makes life interesting.

garage mahal said...

If a Doctor recommends such a test and the patient agrees, it is neither unwanted nor forced.

The doctor is forced, by law, to administer. That's the whole point of ultrasound bills. And coming soon in Wisconsin.

Here is what our statute sez:

'Any intrusion, however slight, of any object into the genital or anal opening.'

Leland said...

Yes, if the baby had reached the stage of sentience, felt pain and knew what was happening to it.

Have you seen a 23 week developed fetus? I have seen a child of a premature birth with only that much development. I assure you with that much development, the child, which only differentiates from a fetus in that it is outside the womb, can feel pain. That it knows what is happening to it can be argued, in that knowing that someone intends to end it can be questioned. But by that argument, do you think all the children killed by Jim Jones really knew that was his intention? How much time do you give the fetus to communicate that he or she understands the intentions of the abortion and do not want that to happen to them?

Michael in ArchDen said...

So is a prostrate exam rape?

Inga said...

Leland, I've said here several times that I don't believe abortions should be legal after the first trimester, or at the latest 18 weeks.

Leland said...

The doctor is forced, by law, to administer. That's the whole point of ultrasound bills. And coming soon in Wisconsin.

So now you are conflating an ultrasound bill with a specific kind of ultrasound, as well as conflating that specific kind of ultrasound test with an unwanted test. Calling a piece of legislation you don't like "rape" cheapens the term. Why not just say you don't agree with the legislation?

'Any intrusion, however slight, of any object into the genital or anal opening.'

I thought you lived in Wisconsin, which has a statute that says a bit more than you suggest. You are describing the act, but the statute also includes intent.

BTW, the Wisconsin Statute already covers Ms. Cuomo's concern.

Leland said...

Leland, I've said here several times that I don't believe abortions should be legal after the first trimester, or at the latest 18 weeks.

So, you're haggling over price?

Inga said...

No, I'm concerned more with the pain and suffering of the baby than the mother's rights at that stage of development. But this isn't an abortion thread so I won't discuss it further.

edutcher said...

Michael in ArchDen said...

So is a prostrate exam rape?

No, but a prostate exam might be.

bagoh20 said...

There are a lot of men being raped in America, and under government control. The threat of these rapes is a common tactic of law enforcement. The same prosecutors demanding more power to prosecute rape are using the threat of rape to get plea deals every day, but those are funny rapes.

rhhardin said...

I think the hypo is flawed. I'd like to pose the men here a different one:

Your son is a high school freshman. Three senior bullies trap him in the locker room and give him a choice: suck their dicks and walk away without a scratch, or have them break his pinky finger. Which would you rather he chose?


The hypo has to have a victim that you'd specially want to protect. Women are children.

That's the situation certainly, but why is it left out of college indoctrination?

Feminism means anything women want at any time they want.

bagoh20 said...

"So is a prostrate exam rape?"

It's consensual, after convincing you that you will die of cancer if he doesn't do it. I've already tried that line on women with limited success.

Palladian said...

You know, my afternoon's work has been ruined because of thoughts of that 3 high school bully blow-job hypothetical...

Thanks a lot!

SeanF said...

Cath: Your son is a high school freshman. Three senior bullies trap him in the locker room and give him a choice: suck their dicks and walk away without a scratch, or have them break his pinky finger.

Why make it oral sex instead of anal?

I think in your hypothetical, the broken finger would be the preferred choice - but that is in no small part due to the difference between having something done to you which you don't want done vs. being forced to actively do something you don't want to do.

The latter is essentially a violation of your own sense of free will.

joe said...

Bonga Bonga Inga,

Another Aleman went off and murdered sub-humans, his name was DornER.



Anglelyne said...

AA: It's pretty obvious that we regard the sexual dimension in a radically different way, and those who act like we don't are either: 1. Disingenuous, 2. Dumb, 3. Not living in the real word[...]

I'd say you should show the gentlemen the respect of taking them at their word, viz., that their getting raped, vs. suffering some other kind of assault, would be all the same to them.

If not, I'd still say that your three choices, above, don't really explain the poor quality of the responses - characterized by unwonted levels of flailing and evasiveness - in posters who generally run a tighter rhetorical game, even when they're just messin' with you. That's interesting in itself.

Shouting Thomas said...

Anglelyne,

If you go back to the post where this originated, you'll discover that Althouse is, in fact, responding to a statement made to me by my late wife, not to a statement by a "gentleman."

Erika said...

Thomas, with all due respect, what makes you think that any of us would find the attitudes that grew out of your deceased wife's sexual abuse instructive in any way? Frankly, I reject the Philippines' culture of sexual commodification. More to the point, I claim my right to consider it irrelevant to my life. I don't understand why you are so insistent and pushy about trying to make other people agree with you on sexual matters, especially when yours are, frankly, weird. I'm happy that Myrna and you found an environment that fosters rampant sexual abuse to be exciting and adventurous. For God's sake, let the rest of us say "Good for you, dude," and Let.It.Go.

Erika said...

Subtitled: In which I recall the time that two smiling Filipina aunties complimented my 3 and 1 year old daughters by cooing, "Oooh, so pretty, so sexy!" I thought to myself, "That is so seriously fucked up," but I smiled nicely, knowing they meant well, and went about my business. I did not lecture them on how their cultures' attitudes about females being little sex kittens* disgusted me, and they did not lecture me on how I should have a more exciting and adventurous life. Everyone was happy. There is a lesson in there for you.

[*you have heard of Filipina women referred to as LBFM, have you not?]

Shouting Thomas said...

Your attitudes, Erika, as precisely why I swore, after my wife's death, never to be involved with a white woman again.

I succeeded in finding a Filipina, thank God.

Yes, Filipina women like sex and have refused to buy into the frigidity, withholding and egotism of white American women. Lord knows, white American women spend a lot of time giving the lecture you just gave to Filipinas. I've witnessed it many times.

Thank God. I've got my alternatives. You've got yours.

Shouting Thomas said...

As to the real source of your anger, Erika...

Yes, a Filipino woman will triumph over you in just about every way imagineable.

You're soft and weak, and you feel entitled to a man without offering anything in return.l

Paco Wové said...

" I like action, adventure and excitement."

And gassing on about it, and on and on and on...

Shouting Thomas said...

And gassing on about it, and on and on and on...

Well, yes. I enjoy the envy and jealousy that guys like you spit back.

It shows I'm doing something right.

It's all part of the game.

wyo sis said...

It's probably safe to say that soft weak entitled women don't find ST and others like him all that either.
What a happy coincidence.

Paco Wové said...

Whatevs, ST. Somedays you're a bigger gasbag than Ritmo, and more boring than Inga.

Shouting Thomas said...

What a happy coincidence.

Yes, it works out well for everybody.

Anglelyne said...

ST: If you go back to the post where this originated, you'll discover that Althouse is, in fact, responding to a statement made to me by my late wife, not to a statement by a "gentleman."

I said gentlemen, ST, gentlemen. I read the original thread; it's not all about you. If you're weren't endorsing your late wife's question, or any of the other pertinent remarks, just exclude yourself from the reference.

Paco's right, though. You're really on a gasbaggin' roll tonight. You're even giving Inga a run for her money in the "let's make this thread all about me me me" stakes.

Shouting Thomas said...

I read the original thread; it's not all about you.

Actually, if you read the title of this post, you'll discover that it is, indeed, a direct response to my statement.

So, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, on top of the other BS you're handing out.

Another moron eating his guts out with jealousy. Go ahead. Your jealousy is justified.

Now, I'm going to go start preparing for next week's music for Mass.