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It's Bullshit. They're professional athletes. I never get the problem.I'm a huge Dale Murphy and Mark Price fan by the way.
Since the stats are inflated by the drugs, I see the point.Expect a string of Howard Cosell-type gutsy Lefty articles on why this is so unfair.
No to Jack Morris, winner of 1991 Series game 7.
"Expect a string of Howard Cosell-type gutsy Lefty articles on why this is so unfair."I'm sure as hell no lefty, but it is worth noting Bonds and Clemens most assuredly would have gone in had they not cheated, but yes, they did.And, given they played against other cheaters, their cheating isn't really comparable to Pete Rose's cheating.So, how long does one punish cheaters?Especially when all the other cheaters haven't been rounded up and identified?
Good. I'm all for forgiveness but that I'm all for keeping them out of the HoF permanently. I wish them the best.
The Deadball Era had different rules, the spitball was allowed, and the ball was constructed differently after 1921. If many of the sluggers were taking PEDs, then so wer the pitchers throwing them the ball.Biggio, Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, and Piazza would have been my choices.
Patrick, I was @ Game 6 of that Series..Puckett's walk off. I really like Morris..great pitcher, but borderline Hall of Fame.
Consider this:"Players have attempted to gain chemical advantages in baseball since the earliest days of the sport. In 1889, for example, pitcher Pud Galvin became the first baseball player to be widely known for his use of performance-enhancing substances. Galvin was a user and vocal proponent of the Brown-Séquard Elixir, a testosterone supplement derived from the testicles of live animals such as dogs and guinea pigs."
Put them in the Hall of Fame. But also have an exhibit discussing and condemning the use of performance enhancing drugs. this exhibit should also include the names of all the players (at least the ones in the Hall) who used them.
"Former pitcher Tom House, drafted in 1967 and active in MLB from 1971-1978, has admitted to using "steroids they wouldn't give to horses" during his playing career.] According to House, the use of performance-enhancing drugs was widespread at that time. He estimates that "six or seven" pitchers on every team were at least experimental users of steroids or human growth hormone, and says that after losses, players would frequently joke that they'd been "out-milligrammed" rather than beaten."
I watched that skinny runt Barry Bonds when he played for the Pittsburgh Pirates. He was a jerk then and went on to become a HOF, world class jerk. That would be the major reason to keep him out in my book. Of course, that's not one of the criteria.Not to worry, the voters will soften up in a few years.
So was Barry Bonds just taking way better steroids than everyone else that was taking steroids?
No problem, guys. The President is crafting an E.O. right now to put you in.
garage mahal said..."So was Barry Bonds just taking way better steroids than everyone else that was taking steroids?"His talent, like Clemons, was just that much better than everyone else's. So his performance, like Clemons, was comparatively better than everyone else's too.
Why not admit Scott Armstrong to the Baseball Hall of Fame for excellence in drug test evasion.
Rocketeer said..."No problem, guys. The President is crafting an E.O. right now to put you in"No advances in human biologics will ever create a PED that would improve Obama's performance past "miserable failure."He'd need a sex change operation to look like he throws.
So was Barry Bonds just taking way better steroids than everyone else that was taking steroids?Not a Bonds fan, but watching him in his prime made me realize he had the most compact, efficient and brutally powerful swing I had ever seen. No wasted motion at all.PEDs were taken mainly to shorten and diminish the effect of injury and wear and tear, thus prolonging careers and making players normally susceptible to lower production maintain higher production levels for longer durations of time.Now, PEDs certainly boosted the power numbers, but remember that pitchers were also doping, thus "leveling" the playing field for all involved during the Steroid Era.
Come on, all you entrepreneurs! Here's a chance to establish the Juiced Baseball Players Hall of Fame, headquartered maybe in Delaware. Joe Biden will back the move.All those who believe those players who toke PEDs are getting shafted can go to Dover instead of Cooperstown. Much better weather and the beaches are close by.
There was never even a hint that Biggio, Bagwell, or Piazza, among others, ever used 'roids. They're just being tainted by having played during the Steroid Era. Very unfair.Peter
donald said...It's Bullshit. They're professional athletes. I never get the problem.The problem is this: If Players M and S juice they gain an advantage over Player B, who doesn't. This gives Player B an incentive to juice.If steroids have important adverse health consequences, all players are better off under a rule prohibiting their use than in a world where they're allowed.A ban on steroids that doesn't keep you out of HoF consideration isn't much of a ban.The counterargument would be that the stuff wasn't formally banned by MLB in the '90s. The counter-counter-argument is that anabolic steroids and HGH controlled substances in 1990 w/penalties for illegal distribution. So formal banning by MLB may have been presumed unnecessary.I'm a huge Dale Murphy and Mark Price fan by the way.Who's Mark Price?
@Tim: "So, how long does one punish cheaters?"Until they're dead.I fully expect Pete Rose to be in the HoF after he dies. It's morbid, but it's the truth.
A ban on steroids that doesn't keep you out of HoF consideration isn't much of a ban.Interesting to note the HoF doesn't seem to care if a player takes steroids before or after their careers. I would be willing to bet the HoF is full of players that broke some league rules.
@Tim Pete Rose was 100% clean as a player. His transgressions all came after his playing career. He belongs as a player. He wasn't that great a manager anyway
I would be willing to bet the HoF is full of players that broke some league rules.I suppose that could be true, but I don't think it's a relevant point. Nobody expects 100% of all illegal activity to be found out; that doesn't mean we shouldn't punish the stuff we do find out about.
Sandy Koufax had five consecutive seasons as great as any pitcher in history. The last two he pitched every game using narcotic painkillers. He said so at his retirement press conference. Does that make him less great?
Nice work Garage-First you complain you can't can't punish the group, then you complain you can't punish the individual--for the same fucking reasons.
"There was never even a hint that Biggio, Bagwell, or Piazza, among others, ever used 'roids. They're just being tainted by having played during the Steroid Era. Very unfair.PeterPeter:Piazza was rumored to have the worst back acne in MLB (a steroid "marker"). Bagwell was also not untainted by rumors. So not sure about your information.OTOH, IMO, the ones with numbers worthy of the Hall should be in. Period.Guys like Bonds & Clemens had HoF careers BEFORE they likely used PEDs. The Hall surely has cheats and men of poor character already in (Ty Cobb, anyone?). So all this moralizing NOW seems overdone, overwrought, and unnecessary. Why punish guys for pushing the envelope (as has always been done in pro sports)?
@Elliott A, did Koufax say that he obtained his meds illegally?Would those meds improve the performance of other players who couldn't get them prescribed for legitimate medical uses?Do you see the difference b/w that and elective steroid use? Or do you simply not want to see important differences?
IMO, the ones with numbers worthy of the Hall should be in. Period.You appear to be unfamiliar w/HoF voting rules.Not being selected in your first year of eligibility =/= not getting in at all.I expect that Bonds and Clemens eventually will get in. But I also understand why so many voters wanted to deny them the extra glory of being "first-ballot Hall of Famers".
Jose Conseco should be in the Hall-He did more to change the game, improve the game, than anyone on the ballot-....Did I mention he is also solely responsible for nobody getting in on this ballot?...Conseco-uencesProvocative, no?
The writer, Mike Downey, pointed out that Greg Maddux will be on the ballot next year. If he doesn't make it on his first ballot, then the baseball hall of fame voting process is meaningless.
Maybe the Baseball Hall of Above Mediocre is meaningless...
Bonds, Clemens, Jack Morris, Tim Raines, Dale Murphy, and Alan Trammel should all be in.And so should Pete Rose. It's an embarrassment that they've left him out for this long -- not to Rose, but an embarrassment to these pearl-clutching ninnies who vote.Who died and made these assholes God anyway? Bob fucking Ryan? I wouldn't trust that idiot to vote for American Idol. I will never visit Cooperstown as long as Rose is kept out of the HOF. And in 6 or 7 years, when The Most Over-Rated Athlete in History, Derek Jeter, is eligible, and they vote that milk-dud headed dick in while Rose is still shunned, I will personally take a giant shit on Bob Ryan's head.
I've been watching baseball since the late '60's.Pete Rose is the best baseball I've ever seen.He's not in the Hall.
Pete is never on a ballot, so he can't be voted in. He should be, but it's not the voters' fault.I wonder if Ken Griffey will be tainted by association with the "steroid era."When these guys were smashing HR records and putting people back in the seats after the strike, they were heroes. The holier-than-thou hypocrisy of the voters today is appalling.
The holier-than-thou hypocrisy of the voters today is appalling.Yeah, y'know, there's nothing more important to this country's future than patrolling the ranks of sportswriters for hypocrisy.In the spirit of Pete Rose, I'd wager that if any sportswriter had denounced McGwire et al. for juicing back in the '90s, you'd have been among the many who'd have berated them for making unproven allegations.The Mitchell Report really happened. So did the Balco investigation. It would be idiotic for any HoF voter to pretend otherwise.
Well... is there any real win scenario here for the voters? Had they voted the players in, someone would complain. Not voting them in is simply causing a different constituency to complain. That's just the way it is for this topic.
So did the games themselves. Should we vacate all the results, the division, league, and World Series championships, and everything that happened? Starting when, and ending when? It's a baseball thread. I didn't realize we were rank-ordering all of the world's problems. Next time I'll check with you first.
I agree - Let all the whiners set up a "Libertarian Druggie Hall of Fame". Then they and their kids and go admire the PED cheaters and leave the rest of us to admire the normal players.
I think Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame because he earned it by his performance on the field but I think not for the players who used drugs to enhance their performance. Michael Wilbon thinks that after a few years when some of the older voters have died that by then the younger voters will view the drug issue more favorably toward these players. I disagree because the younger voters while they might not care as much about the drug issue, they also won't have the same attachment and feeling for these players as did the deceased voters.
I didn't realize we were rank-ordering all of the world's problems.You must be new here. Of course that's what we're doing.And hypocrisy ranks very, very low among them.
Chip:I am quite familiar with HoF voting rules. If a 7-time MVP with an OPS comparable to Ruth, and a 7-time Cy Young winner don't get in on the first ballot, I say there's something wrong with the voters, or the way they are executing their votes under the rules.The repercussions of this year's vote will ripple through future votes. Now there's a logjam of qualified candidates, and under the rules, only 10 can be voted for in a year. Next year, Maddux, Glavine, Kent, and Frank Thomas are eligible. Add Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, and Raines...and you're now out of votes. So guys like Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Sosa, McGwire, and Edgar Martinez all lose out on ballots, and get lost in the shuffle, all because holier-than-thou voters threw a hissy fit on this year's vote. The damage isn't just from admitting no one this year. Unless the rules are changed.
holier-than-thou voters threw a hissy fit I'm sorry, but I just can't take anyone seriously who writes stuff like this.You obviously disagree w/ the voters on the importance of keeping steroid use down. Fine. But that doesn't mean that people who disagree w/ you are childish buffoons.I don't really care if Sosa and McGwire have to wait for a future Veterans' Committee to let 'em in. In fact, I don't really care if they get in at all.And I'm quite comfortable about Raffy Palmeiro having to buy a ticket to get in, ever.So I don't see the huge downside you do.
"Actually, the 1968 season wasn't the best time to present my case. It was the first time since my rookie year that I didn't drive in or score 100 runs. I was so frustrated that at one point I tried using a pep pill 'a greenie' that one of my teammates gave me. When that thing took hold, I thought I was having a heart attack. It was a stupid thing to do". - Hank Aaron in his book.
Astro said..."The writer, Mike Downey, pointed out that Greg Maddux will be on the ballot next year. If he doesn't make it on his first ballot, then the baseball hall of fame voting process is meaningless."In one respect, the HOF voting process is meaningless. To be specific, Willie Mays was not a unanimous first round enshrinee.Yes, he got in on the first round.But some ignorant assholes thought he didn't deserve to be elected in the first round.That alone tells me the HOF voters are basically clowns of one variation or another.Some baseball writers didn't think Willie Mays didn't belong in the Hall of Fame.Totally unbelievable, totally true.
Chip:You'll sing a different tune in 2 or 3 years or more if there's aother year of boycotting. I actualy don't care about Sosa or McGwire for the Hall, either, but it's an injustice to the guys I listed other than them.Kent and Maddux were pretty clearly not juicers - will they be treated differently next year than this year's group?
Pete Rose is banned from baseball. He's not eligible for the HOF.And he should remain banned.Don't want to be banned from baseball? Don't break the one rule that shall not be broken.Pretty simple.
Browndog said..."I've been watching baseball since the late '60's.Pete Rose is the best baseball I've ever seen."You clearly didn't see Willie Mays play then.Notwithstanding the debate over Pete Rose being in the HOF, and much of this is subjective, Mays was clearly a much better player than Rose. From a statistical basis, there's probably 15 or so players who played from the 60's on who are better than Pete Rose, but none better than Mays. At best, one can argue a push between Aaron and Mays, but Mays played the more difficult position, with a higher fielding percentage, and was a better base-runner.
Peter Rose was much better at blowing up catchers in meaningless All-Star games though.That's indisputable.
Anybody who thinks juicing is just fine because they are professional athletes should listen to the BBC 5 presentation about Lance Armstrong and the culture of juicing in cycling.It's almost impossible to compete against the juicers, so everyone has to juice. Then, to get to that level, the people on the level below have to juice.As Humperdink says, Barry Bonds was great when he was with the Pirates but he was tiny. I suspect he started juicing because he wanted a body more like his best friend, Bobby Bo, because then he would for sure be unstoppable.Barry could have been in the HoF without juicing, so he shouldn't have done it.
Speaking of Canseco, my daughter was 10 or 12 years old when he became a star. Collected all his baseball cards .. just loved the guy. She was crushed she found out later he was a doper.
Patrick, I was @ Game 6 of that Series..Puckett's walk off. I really like Morris..great pitcher, but borderline Hall of Fame.My comment incorrectly implies that I favor Morris for the HOF. I don't. I have many memories from that series, as I had come to town only a couple months earlier. My friendships that have lasted were cemented during that series.Morris was a terrific pitcher. Not good enough for the Hall, although if there were a Hall of Fame for single game performances, that would be right up there.
Prediction for you. Next year Frank Thomas gets in with a unanimous (or nearly so) vote because a) he deserves it and b) as a rebuke to the steroid users.
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