January 28, 2013

Krugman sees a "major rhetorical shift" from Romney's campaign to Bobby Jindal's recent speech.

Krugman's column is titled "Makers, Taker, Fakers." Here's one thing that seemed off to me:
Mr. Jindal posed the problem in a way that would, I believe, have been unthinkable for a leading Republican even a year ago. “We must not,” he declared, “be the party that simply protects the well off so they can keep their toys. We have to be the party that shows all Americans how they can thrive.” After a campaign in which Mitt Romney denounced any attempt to talk about class divisions as an “attack on success,” this represents a major rhetorical shift.
There are 2 propositions: A. Those who are successful should be able to keep the fruits of their efforts, and B. All Americans should have the opportunity to work toward their own success.

Krugman comes close to saying Romney only said A and Jindal only says B.

But Romney continually said both things. His opponents worked constantly — and successfully — to make people feel that he was only saying A.  And Jindal is also saying both things. That's the function of the word "simply."

Jindal — in the quoted sentence — isn't saying Romney only said A. He's talking about the way people think about the Republican Party, which is in A terms, because that's the way Democrats have successfully framed them. Jindal is saying the B frame is better political rhetoric.

Krugman goes on to explain why B rhetoric doesn't properly apply to what Jindal and the rest of the GOP are really doing. That is, he's continuing the process that was used so successfully in the campaign to defeat Romney — pushing A, obscuring B.

There is no major rhetorical shift. Not from Jindal and not from Krugman. Everyone is doing, rhetorically, what they've been doing all along.

There are 2 propositions — A and B — that relate to GOP policy. GOP proponents portray them as 2 sides of the same thing: The reason why A makes sense is that it's part of how B works. Opponents of the GOP de-link A and B and portray B as a trick to get people to vote for the party that's only about A.

2 questions for the GOP: 1. How can you truly be about B, with A as a subordinate proposition? and 2. Can you get people to believe that's what you are?

97 comments:

chrisnavin.com said...

The Conscience Of A Liberal can be a little cloudy at times.

Beneath that Nobel Prize, I'm guessing, is a pretty Left Of Center political philosophy. The whole pump priming thing is the first step.

edutcher said...

gain, this comes back to reversing the Gramscian March - as Insta notes, it's time for some of the Conservative gazillionaires to start 4 or 5 more Fox News Channels.

He says they also ought to buy up some women's mags, but. as, Egon's Law noted presciently, "Print is dead", so starting up some new social networks, etc., might be a little more foresighted.

tim in vermont said...

I think that democracy is fundamentally weak on the point of keeping the people from voting themselves not just golden eggs for breakfast, but roast goose for dinner.

Liberals think that it is unsustainable to add CO2 to the atmosphere indefinitely but there is no limit to what we can spend without relearning the hard lessons of the past and inflation.

Conservatives think that there is no limit to the amount of CO2 we can add to the atmosphere without bad consequences.

Both sides think that some magical transformative event will take place between now and doom, conservatives, fusion power, Krugman thinks that economy will take off regardless of the number of shackles are added for each new idea about social justice....

It is all hopeless.

Shouting Thomas said...

All lies all the time by both sides.

The Democrats don't just want to wage war on the rich. They also are waging war on lower and middle class white hetero men in a variety of ways ranging from their open borders stance to their hatred of traditional marriage and advocacy of gay marriage.

The open borders nonsense is an all out attack on low wage, low skill workers. The attack on traditional marriage and the advocacy of gay marriage is an all out attack on the traditional family.

What the Republican Party is doing now is testing the waters to see how publicly denouncing lower and middle class white hetero men will play.

As the prospective chump in this opera destined to be shit on by both sides, I've got no use for either side.

FleetUSA said...

Without B the US is sunk. All Repubs believe in B whereas I believe the Dems only speak in terms of redistribution which can not raise anyone, it just pushes people down.

chrisnavin.com said...

Liberals can't stand A, and they like B as long as it's wrapped up in their own ideas.

I heard a radio interview with Rob McKenna, two time AG of Washington State. He lost the governor's race by a hair (it's been democrat for nearly two generations).

He was talking about how he and Jindal are part of the Republican party that needs, and knows how to, be more 'socially liberal' to survive, and that they could offer direction to the party.

The 'numbers don't lie' is their argument.

The problem is conservative principles become ever further out of view, and much of the party and people who honor those principles won't even consider the deals that have to be made practically with Obama.

tim in vermont said...

Print is not dead. Those magazine covers by the checkout counter get viewed by many more people than actually buy the magazine; practically everybody, really.

That is why billionaire fascists are willing to spend good money on a "dead" medium, to be able to do people favors.

Mitchell the Bat said...

It is high time for a national dialogue on dirty linen.

chrisnavin.com said...

Our politics is behind the times, and on some level, we are our politicians, and we give them their incentives and tell them thusly what to do.

This may be one reason for all the independents and moderates. People are realizing how behind we are.

I picture a grand new day with the 'No Labels' crowd. They've got a bright future.

Shouting Thomas said...

U.S. politics are hopelessly corrupt and useless.

I have absolutely no hope left that that will change. The subprime mortgage scam was a bipartisan ripoff, probably the biggest Ponzi scheme in human history. The rascals from both parties who profited from it are still running the show.

This open borders bullshit is an all out attack on low wage, low skill workers and both parties are in on it.

Fuck them both. You're on your own boys. Expect nothing from these bastards except corruption. Republicans, Democrats... doesn't make a bit of difference.

ricpic said...

Toys = Property. The protection of property from confiscatory taxation is the protection of liberty. Of course it's much easier to demagogue the rich and their toys if the problem to be solved is liberty. And too much liberty is always the problem to lefties like Krugman.

campy said...

I don't know if print is dead, but the republican party sure is.

kimsch said...

I was reading an article at NYT yesterday regarding pain meds and the FDA and DEA sticking their noses in again and making it even harder for those of us in chronic pain to manage that pain because some people will get a hold of said medications, use them to get "high", and become addicted.

One of the "solutions" a commenter came up with entailed taxing Big Pharma companies to make their meds less appealing to addicts, while also subsidizing Big Pharma companies to help them comply.

Tax them, then subsidize them so they can pay the taxes.

Of course, when you tax a company, the company builds those taxes into the prices. So they raise prices. Then, if you subsidize them so they can pay the taxes, the company, whose customers paid the taxes, now gets a refund of the taxes. And you can bet that refund doesn't make its way back to the customer. So customers pay the tax and the subsidy to the company and get absolutely nothing in return. Not even any benefit from the regulations or what the taxation was supposed to provide.

Freder Frederson said...

advocacy of gay marriage.

Pray tell, how is gay marriage a "war on white hetero men"?

mikee said...

I have zero hope for any substantive change in the opinion of a US populace that cannot recognize and reject open corruption in an administration, despite having its face rubbed in it for four straight years.

mikee said...

I have zero hope for any substantive change in the opinion of a US populace that cannot recognize and reject open corruption in an administration, despite having its face rubbed in it for four straight years.

Shouting Thomas said...

Here's what Althouse and the other open borders people count on...

We're supposed to be ashamed that members of our families still need and want low skill, low wage jobs. It's supposed to be a class stigma that we run away from.

We're supposed to denounce our own families so as not to seem like bigots. That's the way this is being played.

Well, I won't play. Many members of my family are still poor and uneducated, and they need low skill, low wage jobs.

So, I'm a fucking hillbilly. Eat shit.

Tibore said...

I'm disappointed but unsurprised at Krugman's strawmanning of the stance. You can go back to Regan, and back even further than that to see that the "A" and "B" notions are more than just "Republican", but is in fact an ingrained value for Americans in general, at least up until the last couple of decades and the growth of statist-centric thought.

As far as our blog hostess's question: I don't understand the question of how we can "truly be about B, with A as a subordinate position". To me, they go hand in hand as two sides to the same coin: All citizens should have the freedom to create their own success, and government best accomodates this by allowing them to keep the fruits of their labor. It seems to me to be nothing more than the simple logic of the free, non-centrist market that's made the US a 20th century economic giant going into the 21st century.

And as far as people believing that's what Republicans are: I don't know. I'd say that actions speak louder than words, and the prosperous years of seeing people build businesses succeed should be enough evidence for anyone. But obviously mere evidence is not enough for some people...

Shouting Thomas said...

Pray tell, how is gay marriage a "war on white hetero men"?

It defies the traditional religious belief that a child needs a father and a mother.

The white community (along with Asians) is the last holdout for religion, traditional family and marriage. The destruction of the traditional family is the lynchpin of the Democratic Party's hold on the black block vote. Welfare has been substituted for the authority of men.

When you get into this stupidity, the simplest things go over people's heads.

Freder Frederson said...

He was talking about how he and Jindal are part of the Republican party that needs, and knows how to, be more 'socially liberal' to survive, and that they could offer direction to the party.

I would like to have some of what he is smoking. Jindal is not, and does not know how to be, "socially liberal". He is staunchly pro-life, in favor of (and pushed through) vouchers for religious schools, thinks creationism should be taught in schools, and on and on.

sparrow said...

One speech does not a major shift make.

Dr Weevil said...

He actually called his column "Makers, Takers, Fakers"? Before I read the rest of the post, and without ever reading his column, my immediate thought was: "Makers" (that's most Republicans), "Takers" (that's most Democrats), and "Fakers" (that's most of the press and what passes for an intelligentsia these days, including Krugman). Is he really unaware just how many readers put him in the "Fakers" category? That requires an extraordinary level self-deception.

DADvocate said...

If Republicana want to help people thrive, make it easier to start your own businesss and start with moonshine. One of the characters, Tim, on "Monnshiners" on Discovery TV wants to go legal. To do so, he must pay a $200,000 bond to the federal government.

WTF?

Plus, there are over 2,000 pages of federal regs. Micro breweries don't have to pay this. (I know this because a guy I work with is in the micro brewery business.)

This guy knows how to make moonshine. Let him make it legally, pay the taxes on it and earn a good living. We're all winners, not just the already rich that keep out competition with burdensome laws and regulaitons.

Bob Boyd said...

I like Jindal, but the Republican Party's biggest problem isn't "stupid", its fear. They reek of it
People don't follow leaders who are fearful.

EDH said...

I still think Jindal was decrying Republicans saying stupid things that can be used against them by their opponents... while in the same breath saying stupid things that can be used against Republicans.

1.) Sorry, the "simply protects the well off so they can keep their toys" comes across as a criticism of the Republican status quo.

2.) Jindal makes no distinction between "toys" and the invested wealth necessary for economic growth.

3.) Americans don't need Republican to be "shown how they can thrive". They need Republican to change government policy so that American are allowed to thrive.

Shouting Thomas said...

I'm inclined to agree with DADvocate.

I've always been an outlaw. What the hell else is left for an honest, self-respecting white hetero man?

As far as I'm concerned, there are no rules except to get what you can for yourself.

rehajm said...

Ignore Paul's and Ann's attempts to respond to their supplied narratives. We learned from the first presidential debate, given the chance, people will respond positively to the Republican message. Use your own narrative, repeat it until Obama says 'I'm getting tired of hearing you say that', then, keep going. Do not cave to the left's demands to hear something else.

A little Alinsky wouldn't hurt either. Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. And there is much on the left deserving of ridicule.

SJ said...

I think, Ann, that you are seeing an example of "The Narrative" at work.

The best explanation for "The Narrative" that I've seen was written by novelist Stephen Hunter. (It was brought to my attention by blogger Kevin Baker, in comments about fracking and the documentary FrackNation.)


You do not fight the narrative. The narrative will destroy you. The narrative is all-powerful. The narrative rules. It rules us, it rules Washington, it rules everything.
--
The narrative is the set of assumptions the press believes in, possibly without even knowing that it believes in them. It's so powerful because it's unconscious...It permeates their whole culture. They know, for example, that Bush is a moron and Obama is a saint. They know communism was a phony threat cooked up by right-wing cranks as a way to leverage power to the executive.... Cheney's a devil. Biden's a genius. Soft power good, hard power bad. Forgiveness excellent, punishment counterproductive, capital punishment a sin.
--
And the narrative is the bedrock of their culture, the keystone of their faith, the altar of their church. They don't even know they're true believers, because in theory they despise the true believer in anything. But they will absolutely de-frackin'-stroy anybody who makes them question that....


The narrative says that Republicans want to protect rich cronies and Democrats want to help the little guy, even when Republicans keep repeating rhetoric about giving everyone an opportunity to attempt to become rich.

Even when the policies of Democrats make it much harder for small businessmen to grow their business and wealth.

(Look for news stories about businesses wanting to remain below 50 full time employees, so that they aren't hurt by ObamaCare's regulations about providing health insurance for employees. Then ask how hard it is for a successful entrepreneur to become a millionaire when he doesn't want to grow his business from less-than-50-employees to 500-employees.)

phx said...

The GOP is not dead. Obama and the Dems will offer real compromises on abortion in this term - maybe greater restrictions on federal funding, something like that. It will be tauted as a big victory (finally) for the GOP - they'll be rescued from the ash heap and Boehner will and Obama will enjoy a smoke togehter. It's not in anyone's interest to see a one-party government.

Shouting Thomas said...

It's not in anyone's interest to see a one-party government.

Uh, phx, what you just described is a one-party government.

phx said...

LOL ST. You have a point.

The Godfather said...

During discussions about tax policy, Republicans appear to care mostly about not raising taxes on the rich. This makes it easy for leftists to claim that Republicans only care about the rich. Republicans should find some pro-growth policies that don't sound so pro-rich.

EMD said...

“We can probably eliminate poverty on the planet earth in the next 50 years if we will just continue to follow the tenets of free enterprise capitalism to the greatest extent possible. So I just don’t want to see that change.”

EMD said...

During discussions about tax policy, Republicans appear to care mostly about not raising taxes on the rich. This makes it easy for leftists to claim that Republicans only care about the rich. Republicans should find some pro-growth policies that don't sound so pro-rich.


This is correct, but I don't really trust the press to get it right ... ever.

edutcher said...

Somebody tell phx it's hard to get compromises out of somebody whose favorite phrase is, "I Won".

Democrats never compromise. They demagogue until the RINOs cave.

Bob Boyd said...

I like Jindal, but the Republican Party's biggest problem isn't "stupid", its fear. They reek of it
People don't follow leaders who are fearful.


Very good.. The RINOs are so afraid of not being liked, they lost their backbones years ago.

Shouting Thomas said...

I didn't think I'd ever revisit the way I felt in about 1968, which is that my own government was essentially an enemy to be avoided, fought and evaded in any way possible.

I was wrong. Right back to where I started.

garage mahal said...

This guy knows how to make moonshine. Let him make it legally, pay the taxes on it and earn a good living

I don't understand why making moonshine is treated like making heroin or crank in the eyes of the law.

Love that show by the way. Season finale on Weds! Does Jeff get busted?

phx said...

Someone tell edutcher that right now is an excellent time for the GOP to get compromise on an issue like abortion from the Dems. Not the least because we're starting to feel sorry for the GOPs self-mismanagement.

phx said...

We're feeling sorry for the GOP that still hangs on to Rush Limbaugh as its avatar.

Pogo said...

"I like Jindal, but the Republican Party's biggest problem isn't "stupid", its fear. They reek of it
People don't follow leaders who are fearful.
"

Fer chrissakes. Did you already forget the entire Obama 2012 campaign?

Big Mike said...

@Professor, I don't understand why you think (A) and (B) are unrelated. Isn't (A) a major reason for "work[ing] toward their own success?"

traditionalguy said...

The GOP is stuck being the party of the guys who made it in past, or present, as owners of the Capitalistic bonanza. They are the winners who like the game just fine.

The Dems represent the new comers and the old working class who see themselves as non-owners, but want to join a party that wants them in its membership. They are the losers who want to change the outcome of the game.

Jindal is asking for the winners to accept the losers into full honorary membership.

But the political weather reports are that hell has not yet frozen over.

DADvocate said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DADvocate said...

I don't understand why making moonshine is treated like making heroin or crank in the eyes of the law.

Love that show by the way. Season finale on Weds! Does Jeff get busted?


Amen to the first part. (It's all about money and taxes.) I'll be watching Wed. I'd like to make moonshine myself. Being from Tennessee originally, it's in my bones. I had a friend in college who was from Tellico Plains, TN, way up in the hills. He always brought moonshine to the parties and I always drank it.

Freder Frederson said...

The white community (along with Asians) is the last holdout for religion, traditional family and marriage.

It is astounding that you think you speak for all white hetero males. I am a white hetero male. I have lots of white (and Asian) hetero male friends. And frankly you don't speak for me or them.

Shouting Thomas said...

And frankly you don't speak for me or them.

Good for you. Go ahead and be astounded.

Shouting Thomas said...

It is astounding that you think you speak for all white hetero males.

Jesus, but people get confused about this shit. Talking ideology instead of reality turns people into morons.

Who's talking about speaking?

Whites and Asians, by and large, get married and raise their families in traditional households.

Blacks and hispanics don't.

What in the fuck do you suppose this has to do with speaking?

garage mahal said...

@Dadvocate
It appears the dreaded snitch may have done Jeff, Jim Tom, and Mark in, if they were transporting liquor.

What I don't get is why these guys would all show their faces and let everyone know what they're doing.

creeley23 said...

2 questions for the GOP: 1. How can you truly be about B, with A as a subordinate proposition? and 2. Can you get people to believe that's what you are?

Ann: You voted solidly for Obama in 2008 and came within a hair of voting for him again in 2012 in spite of all the obvious signals from the beginning that Obama was and is a dangerous leftist.

Frankly I'm bewildered that all my smart liberal friends, like you, were so easily taken in by Obama.

Given the ease with which Republicans and Tea Partiers are portrayed as insane, stupid extremists by the media, and moderates believe it, I'm not sure what Republicans can do.

What do you recommend to the GOP?

I'm out of ideas beyond holding fast, waiting for the repercussions of Obama's agenda to hit home and then picking up the pieces.

The current OMG-Republicans-Must-Change-Now hysteria only plays into Obama's hands.

Shouting Thomas said...

Oh, well, time to check out of this thread.

I'm not an advocate for anything, except for me and my family getting shit.

The rest be damned.

bpm4532 said...

Krugman is an idiot. I do think he is mentally ill.

Every word he writes or speaks devalues the Nobel prize and Princeton (the NY Times is arguably worthless - intellectually and financially).

bpm4532 said...

While Krugman's work in economic geography is good, I don't consider it on a par with other work that won the prize. I believe he was awarded the prize more based on his support for Democrats and Obama, or anyone but Bush (in the eyes of Europeans).

Paul said...

Krugman = Pravda back in the cold war.

Can't anyone see that?

War is peace.

Slavery is freedom.

Povery is riches.

Krugman is truth.

bagoh20 said...

This demonstrates the folly of thinking the GOP's problems have anything to do with who is talking "smart". We all want the smart and correct argument to win, but the sad truth is that it's irrelevant to elections. Even the facts have little effect against the liberal hegemony of the chattering classes. Krugman is exhibit A.

DADvocate said...

It appears the dreaded snitch may have done Jeff, Jim Tom, and Mark in, if they were transporting liquor.

What I don't get is why these guys would all show their faces and let everyone know what they're doing.


Yeah. I wonder how real the show is. Are they really making moonshine or just pretending to and all it is is water? I wouldn't show my face.

Tim's supposedly a fire chief where he lives. It's not like he's an obscure figure in his community.

Jim Tom's a hoot. Living my first 38 years in East Tennessee, I've known guys like most of those moonshiners. All those guys crack me up. Most of them, I'd see their lost twin at my high school reunion.

tim in vermont said...

So "the narrative" is kind of like "the force" in Star Wars. It is the plot and those who know the plot control the action.

Luke couldn't miss when shooting at the Death Star and the Death Star inevitably had that weakness because the plot demanded it. Darth Vader was on the dark side of the plot...

Notice how the creature who said "You Jedi Mind tricks will not work on me" was in the form of an elephant, or Republican... no accidents in literature.

edutcher said...

phx said...

Someone tell edutcher that right now is an excellent time for the GOP to get compromise on an issue like abortion from the Dems. Not the least because we're starting to feel sorry for the GOPs self-mismanagement.

First, as I say, the Demos won't compromise on abortion any more than they will on entitlements.

Second, abortion is dropping in popularity (as it were). Ultrasound really put the lie to the "fetus" argument and women have had to deal with the fact they're killing a human being.

Why should the Rs compromise when things are swinging their way?

PS Spare me the mind games. phx was the one who was going all conciliatory the month before the election, remember?

(I'm willing to be he's one of those who agrees the election was stolen, he just won't say it)

edutcher said...

phx said...

Someone tell edutcher that right now is an excellent time for the GOP to get compromise on an issue like abortion from the Dems. Not the least because we're starting to feel sorry for the GOPs self-mismanagement.

First, as I say, the Demos won't compromise on abortion any more than they will on entitlements.

Second, abortion is dropping in popularity (as it were). Ultrasound really put the lie to the "fetus" argument and women have had to deal with the fact they're killing a human being.

Why should the Rs compromise when things are swinging their way?

PS Spare me the mind games. phx was the one who was going all conciliatory the month before the election, remember?

(I'm willing to be he's one of those who agrees the election was stolen, he just won't say it)

JHapp said...

B implies A

bagoh20 said...

Someone could say "hey let's mint trillion dollar coins" and people would say "sure if you say it will work, and especially if you say it won't cost me anything, I'm all for it, and I'll vote for you."

tim in vermont said...

It doesn't matter how many people support or oppose abortion, what matters is the number of single issue voters who support or oppose it. The Dems win there, like the Republicans do with guns.

hombre said...

“We must not,” he declared, “be the party that simply protects the well off so they can keep their toys. We have to be the party that shows all Americans how they can thrive.”

With this comment, Jindal solidifies his position in the ranks of glib, opportunistic hacks like Obama and Christie.

I've been a Democrat or an Independent for forty years, and yet it is clear to me that Republican opposition to tax and spending increases have to do with something other than protecting the toys of the "well off."

The rhetoric of class warfare is not more appealing simply because it comes from a Republican.

Bob Boyd said...

I followed SJ's embedded link which after a couple click-thrus led me to this piece.
http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2008/01/church-of-msm-and-new-reformation.html
Fantastic. A must read IMHO.
Thanks SJ.

hombre said...

FF wrote: "It is astounding that you think you speak for all white hetero males. I am a white hetero male."

I think it is implicit that he didn't intend to speak for liberals for whom the template trumps everything including family and faith and, pretty much, critical thinking.

Bob Boyd said...

@POGO
Obama doesn't come across as fearful.
He encourages his constituents to be fearful (fearful of individuals and institutions not under sufficient administrative control) and he presents himself as their protector. He presents his opponents as corrupt minions of those who benefit from the disorder that he is working to overcome.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Isn't it a racist dog whistle to use the term Faker when talking about someone of Indian ancestry?

mccullough said...

The Republicans need to take it to Wall Street and D.C.

Executives of bailed out banks are failures. They should be taxed and treated as such. People who make a living off lobbying are parasites.

Break up the big banks and get rid of crony capitalism. That would be a start. Also, reform intellectual property laws.

Wall Street, Hollywood, and D.C. should be the Republicans targets for what capitalism should not be. People who make money off government favors didn't earn shit.

Colonel Angus said...

What I don't get is why these guys would all show their faces and let everyone know what they're doing.

Because these shows aren't real?

Henry said...

I'm waiting for a Democrat of equal stature to say:

“We must not be the party that simply protects government bureaucrats so they can keep their toys. We have to be the party that shows all Americans how they can thrive.”

Then we can have a conversation.

Peter said...

Romney lost because he allowed himself to be defined by his opposition.

Even now that the election's over, the definition of Romney- essentially as a heartless plutocrat and servant of the moneyed- has stuck.

It's not a fair or accurate definition, but then it was not intended to be (it was intended to be a political weapon). But, it has stuck.

creeley23 said...

So Instapundit links this topic and adds:

What the GOP needs to do is overcome its media problem. I’ve offered some suggestions on that in the past.

I agree. It is a media problem, but given that the media is mostly a propaganda arm for the Democratic Party these days, it's not so clear what the Republican Party specifically can do about that.

Reynolds recommends that rich Republicans buy women's magazines and buy/start women's websites.

It's a place to start and I don't know how well it would work, but it's clearly a longer game than Ann's "What are Republicans gonna do?" question about the Romney/Jindal lie from Krugman.

Crunchy Frog said...

We're feeling sorry for the GOP that still hangs on to Rush Limbaugh as its avatar.

The only people who claim Rush speaks for the GOP are libs like yourself.

Rush is a cheerleader for conservatism, not the Republican Party. He is harder on RINOs than he is on Democrats.

Why is Rush so popular? Because he has the balls to call out the Left on its bullshit. People on the Right have been crying out for the last 20 years for someone with enough guts not to kowtow to the leftist media narrative, but to talk over their heads straight to the American people.

Cydney Williams said...

Tin in vermont wrote: think that democracy is fundamentally weak on the point of keeping the people from voting themselves not just golden eggs for breakfast, but roast goose for dinner.


What total crap. Both parties will spend your money. The difference is that Republicans want to borrow and increase the debt to spend on tax cuts for the rich and endless senseless wars, while Democrats want to spend money on tax-as-you-spend domestic programs that will actually make the country stronger.

EMD said...

What total crap. Both parties will spend your money. The difference is that Republicans want to borrow and increase the debt to spend on tax cuts for the rich and endless senseless wars, while Democrats want to spend money on tax-as-you-spend domestic programs that will actually make the country stronger.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Colonel Angus said...

while Democrats want to spend money on tax-as-you-spend domestic programs that will actually make the country stronger.

Well the problem with comment is it isn't true. Obamas tax plan would have generated $1.6 trillion over ten years, or an additional $160 billion a year. Since we are currently spending over $1 trillion dollars more than we are taking in, it would seem the Democrats are fine with borrow and spend as well.

EMD said...

We're feeling sorry for the GOP that still hangs on to Rush Limbaugh as its avatar.

How often do you listen to Rush, phx?

I ask in earnest.

Divorce yourself from your political opinion of Rush, and try to see him through the prism of on-air entertainment.

Both Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are very good at what they do, and I can recognize that, despite considerable political differences between me and them.

Sigivald said...

Re. question 2) "Never, as long as all they bother to listen to is Krugman and his ilk".

It astonishes me (and I'm an (I) with a strong (L) leaning) how often my (D)/(P) friends - as far as I can tell from their own utterances - get literally all of their news about the (R)s from (D) news sources.

Funny thing, that: It's almost like you don't get a clear view of something by viewing it only via its opposition.

(Ironically, of course, the same people all reflexively complain that Fox News* Isn't Honest.

Plainly, though, ThinkProgress and UpWorthy are totally fair-minded.

* Which I never, ever look at - making it doubly amusing when someone tries to pull the "that's just because all you get your news from is FOX!" card. Which has, sadly, happened more than once on the Interwebs.)

furious_a said...

The difference is that Republicans want to borrow and increase the debt to spend on tax cuts for the rich...

...it isn't the government's money to begin with, so how can they "spend" it by allowing people to keep more of what they earn?

Democrats want to spend money on tax-as-you-spend domestic programs that will actually make the public-sector unions stronger.

...there, fixed it for you.

Alex said...

It doesn't really matter how stupid the "toys" reference is, that's what a majority of the American people believe. It's just smart politics for Jindal to admit it.

JL said...
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JL said...
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JL said...

rehajm and SJ who mentioned the narrative at 10:01 make good points. And what EDH said at 9:58 is good as well:

I still think Jindal was decrying Republicans saying stupid things that can be used against them by their opponents... while in the same breath saying stupid things that can be used against Republicans.

This is how the GOP is the stupid party: One of the purported stars of the party is dopey enough to use the lefty narrative to describe his party. Did he really mean to say that one of the GOP party objectives is to protect the rich so that they can keep their toys, or did he mean to say that they are perceived that way and they need to change that perception?

There is a big difference between being a party that is for lower taxation in order to stimulate economic growth, which as an end result, allows the rich get to keep their toys, and being the party whose stated objective is that the rich get to keep their toys; the latter point being how Krugman and the majority of Americans will interpret what Jindal said.

The GOP need to prove to the majority that the accepted narrative about them is wrong. If, however, they themselves embrace the narrative, and cannot articulate what they stand for beyond that narrative-- which implies to tentative supporters that they currently stand for nothing-- then they deserve to lose.

(edited for typos and clarity)

Alex said...

The GOP is smart to admit that the left narrative has truth to it.

Alex said...

The meme of GOP as party of the fatcats goes back to the late 19th century.

JL said...

The GOP is smart to admit that the left narrative has truth to it.

At a time when the media treats the GOP like "the enemy", and spins everything about them negatively, Jindal's narrative embracing remark becomes a self-inflicted wound.


The meme of GOP as party of the fatcats goes back to the late 19th century.

True. Which makes it harder for the GOP to fight it.

Of course, in order for the GOP to replace the existing narrative they need to articulate a different one that will resonate with voters. Maybe they can't. Which makes them the stupid party.

And maybe they can't because they don't have one. Which makes them the extinct party.

Alex said...

JL... we are on the same page. I do think of the GOP as nearly extinct on the national level. 2014 will confirm it.

Inga said...
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Cedarford said...

Republicans failed pretty badly to show they were a Party the workers could see as championing them vs. the "Hero Jobs Creators" and the "Small business owners" - who, small though they may be, are still the bosses and not all workers in small businesses regard the owner as a beneficent leige lord.

Nor do Republicans get the common sense wisdom in the population that most are not destined to become rich Hero Jobs Creators or small business owners making millions eventually from their present station as Junior high teachers, diesel mechanics, secretaries, store clerks, and the guy in accounting on the 3rd floor.

Republicans offered pie in the sky Horatio Alger myths the last 20 years just at a time when Globalization and Free Trade has crippled economic growth. People don't want grandiose dreams of their future owner-executive status "if they just work hard and love their bosses". They want life better in what they are doing now.

Republicans lost much of the middle class in their focus on CEO-owner worship, Religious Right social values, and kowtowing to the Elites.

Cedarford said...

Tim in Vermont - nice 9:34AM post.

I do like the contrast between Republicans thinking we can generate unlimited amounts of CO2 without any future consequence and Democrats thinking they can generate unlimited debt without consequence.

Joe Schmoe said...

You can't make me click through a Krugman link.

You can't.

David said...

The ancient Greeks had it right. Those who seek high office should be, ipso facto, disqualified therefrom.
Hold a lottery. Toss a dart at a phone book page. Grab a passerby in the mall. That would yield a better candidate.

David said...

The ancient Greeks had it right. Those who seek high office should be, ipso facto, disqualified therefrom.
Hold a lottery. Toss a dart at a phone book page. Grab a passerby in the mall. That would yield a better candidate.

Methadras said...

Can someone just toss Krugman into the ocean without a lifesaver please? He's even more annoying that Obama and I didn't think that was possible. Someone seriously needs to punt that little midget.

Unknown said...

----Republicans offered pie in the sky Horatio Alger myths the last 20 years just at a time when Globalization and Free Trade has crippled economic growth. People don't want grandiose dreams of their future owner-executive status ====


We are much more likely to meet the challenges of Globalization and Free Trade if we inspire the dreams of the next Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, self made man and don't through a ton of red tape on him or her. Obama wants to stamp out all those dreams and provide food stamps in their place.

Moneyrunner said...

Two questions: (1) I wonder how much influence former Enron advisor Paul Krugman will have when the NY Times folds. (2) Why does anyone read him? He's as predictable as a tide and just as interesting.

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