December 15, 2012

"Adam Lanza has been a weird kid since we were 5 years old... As horrible as this was, I can't say I am surprised... Burn in hell, Adam."

A tweet from a neighbor. And:
Nancy Lanza, 54, whom Adam murdered inside the home the two shared, reportedly had worked at Sandy Hook Elementary School. But more recently, she was taking care of her son.

“She needed to be home with Adam,” the family insider said.
I'm seeing a lot of post-Newtown proposals for more gun control — and resistance to these proposals. It's not surprising that each new massacre becomes an occasion to restate positions on gun control, with redoubled enthusiasm.

But why isn't there more talk about institutionalizing the mentally ill? Adam Lanza's mother needed to be home with him? What 20-year-old needs pervasive supervision from his mother? I suspect the mother, who is now dead, had very serious problems of her own. I can't understand her keeping those 3 weapons — pictured at the link — in the home along with a 20-year-old man who — in her view — required her stay-at-home motherhood.

We're so sympathetic to children, and now we're distracted by our sympathy for the dead children, but what about all the deeply troubled young people? Why are we so sympathetic to them up until the point where they act? Or... I mean... why does our sympathy toward the mentally ill take the form of regarding them as socially awkward and weird and leaving them alone?

ADDED: Why did Adam, after killing his mother, travel to the school where she worked? Shouldn't some suspicion fall on the mother? She looks like a victim, but could she and her son have been operating together? News reports say the guns were "apparently" hers, and Adam was buzzed past security at the school because the principal "recognized him as the son of a colleague." If she was a "colleague" and had such a troubled son, why hadn't she conveyed this information to them? If she was staying home from work to deal with his problems, why didn't they know it? What were her issues with them?

UPDATE: Now, the word is that Adam was not buzzed in.

UPDATE 2: The NYT publishes an article about what a "big, big gun fan" Nancy Lanza was.

UPDATE 3: WaPo on Nancy Lanza, who doesn't seem to have worked at the school her son targeted. There was a lot of inaccurate reporting on this incident! My suspicion at "ADDED," above, was largely premised on Adam's going to her workplace. Wouldn't she have been the one with hostility toward that particular place? It wasn't his school. Was her hostility conveyed to him somehow? But if it wasn't her workplace, those questions don't arise. Mysteries remain about what went on between these 2 individuals, and it would be helpful to know whether the mother might have done something to protect the rest of us from her dangerous son. That she failed even to protect herself does not close that door of inquiry.

176 comments:

rhhardin said...

Goffman's 1960s Asylums was a study of bureaucracy, what happens in organizations, and how people manage to survive in them.

It took mental institutions as the vehicle, since they're pretty totalizing in their control.

People took it as proving that mental institutions were perverse rather than organizations are perverse, and so they eliminated mental institutions, itself an example of perverseness.

It's a great read, still.

Hagar said...

One of the 9 mm.'s might reasonably have been for the mother, but the Bushmaster she must havee bought for him.
Serious problems of her own indeed.

Kit said...

Where is that line between letting individuals be, respecting their privacy and overcoming our fears of when to interceed? Are we really being sympathetic to the mentally ill or do we see them as these scary beings we avoid and just hope they go away? The way we seem to treat them through our healthcare system and our ordinary, everyday interactions makes me think the latter.

chickelit said...

It does seem odd that the mom bought those guns for him. Were they members of a local range? Where did he/they normally shoot them?

Craig said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Aridog said...

If they'd lived in Michgian, Mom could have been forced to pay dues to SEIU until recently.

When mental institutions were summarily shut down we collectively threw out the baby with the bath water. We corrected some flaws by erasing the institutions entirely...rather than address the flaws individually and keep the good & beneficial part of the system.

Where I live, today if you have responsibility for a mentally infirm person you will pay hell in court, every 90 days, to retain your guardianship if there is any institutionalization involved. Even then, you will play hell with the expiration of "authorized" time in sundry treatment facilities....who will send you loved one home just as wacko as they were when they went in.

In the Lewton case, this mom was destined to die as surely as sun rises in the east. There was and is no place to put persons like her son....unless he is convicted of a crime and ordered confined...which is kind of horse & barn door late in tragedies of this magnitude or any other.

MayBee said...

Yes.

Exactly.

Perhaps she did feel she needed to stay home to watch him. He was obviously on the brink of being very dangerous and she thought she could stop him.

Perhaps the guns were to protect her from him. Perhaps he bullied her into buying them for him.

Althouse, may I recommend the movie "We Have to Talk about Kevin"? It stars Tilda Swinton John C Reilly.
It's very fitting for this weekend.

Aridog said...

Lewton = should be Newtown

William said...

If guns are readily available, they will be readily available for lunatics. In this country there have been sixty five incidents like this in the past three years. That's quite a lot...It's possible, maybe even probable, that private gun ownership reduces incidences of crime. Perhaps private gun ownership even serves as a check and balance to the power of government. But the more guns there are in circulation, the greater the chances of spree shootings....You can make arguments for the 2nd amendment, but nothing about this case is supportive of 2nd amendment rights.

Darrell said...

Every recent incident happened in "gun-free" zones where even security guards weren't allowed to carry a firearm. Let's start there if we are looking for a pattern.

rhhardin said...

If guns are readily available, they will be readily available for lunatics. In this country there have been sixty five incidents like this in the past three years. That's quite a lot.

There's a news demand for them.

It's a business arrangement.

SGT Ted said...

You can make arguments for the 2nd amendment, but nothing about this case is supportive of 2nd amendment rights.

Other than the fact that it is a Consititional Right, just like the other rights. Even just like some of the "rights" that aren't even written down, or emanate from some penumbra.


The authoritarians and progeessives are always looking for an excuse to limit just about every right, except abortion.

"Emanate from a penumbra" would make a good euphamism for a fart.

LarsPorsena said...

I (regretfully) predict another surge in gun sales. As the MSM and bien pensants bay for more control, they will add impetus to already high sales.

Pogo said...

He was just differently abled.

We believed we could do better than our ignorant forebears, our idiot parents who were so damned square.

We freed the insane to live in boxes and over grates. Free to be you and me, remember?

We freed children from parents, brought up instead in the loving arms of abusive foster parents or, better, the state and feral gangs.

More fun awaits us, as the destruction of marriage awaits, and endless borrowing enslaves us.

Every change demanded by the generation has made us worse, and they call it success.

Aridog said...

William....you cite a compound statistical fallacy, without I suspect realizing it, but that's your opinion so I can accept that.

Where you get in the weeds is where you ignore the fact that there are already gun control laws on the books, federally and in each state, yet most are barely enforced.

Fact is simple: LEO's can't prevent most crime, they can only respond. I can acquire a "cold piece" in less than a day on the street...and so can any criminal or insane person. No law will stop it. No more than the law making the school in Newtown a *gun free zone* prevented the tragedy.

However, enforcing the acquisition laws uniformly would reduce the number of guns in criminal markets. Too bad BATF doesn't understand that.

Palladian said...

The worst part about crimes like this one is that it causes all the hand-wringing ninnies to go on an emotionalized "we must do something!!!" bender. The gun-grabbing phony-ass "liberals" screech even louder about taking away scary guns, and brain dead law-and-fascism "conservatives" start bellowing about re-opening the mental dungeons and locking up anyone who's "peculiar".

The distasteful barrage of weeks of graphics-laden media spectaculars about the "Newtown Tragedy", the tearful, stage-managed performance of TV's Barack Obama, and the coming acres of sodden teddy bears, paraffin puddles from Chinese-made candles and wilted grocery store bouquets- is nothing compared to the real and present danger of politicians heeding the weepy cry from both sides to "Do Something!"

joe said...

THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV
Chapter 3 - Ilusha's Funeral. The Speech at the Stone



And whatever happens to us later in life, if we don't meet for

twenty years afterwards, let us always remember how we buried the poor

boy at whom we once threw stones, do you remember, by the bridge?

and afterwards we all grew so fond of him. He was a fine boy, a

kindhearted, brave boy, he felt for his father's honour and resented

the cruel insult to him and stood up for him. And so in the first

place, we will remember him, boys, all our lives

You must know that there is nothing higher and stronger and more

wholesome and good for life in the future than some good memory,

especially a memory of childhood, of home. People talk to you a

great deal about your education, but some good, sacred memory,

preserved from childhood, is perhaps the best education.

"I say this in case we become bad," Alyosha went on, "but

there's no reason why we should become bad, is there, boys? Let us be,

first and above all, kind, then honest and then let us never forget

each other! I say that again. I give you my word for my part that I'll

never forget one of you. Every face looking at me now I shall remember

even for thirty years.

Roger J. said...

Palladian--well said

Renee said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Granny Jan said...

The reports of the mother working at the school seem to be false. So, you're speculation is over the top.

Renee said...

In my low-income neighborhood, adults with older children with mental health issues can utilize the Department of Children & Families as a voluntary use of services.

The mother had the money, to give services her son needed to keep himself and others safe.


When I read the amount of the alimony payments she was receiving.... sorry...denial that her son needed help big time.

Nomadic100 said...

Previous commenters are making many suppositions without much basis in facts we currently have available.

Ann seems to be suggesting that, if Adam was impaired enough that his mother felt she needed to stay home with him (a hypothesis raised by one neighbor,it seems) then perhaps he should have been "institutionalized."

The hearing: "Judge, I feel that I need to be home with my son since he has inadequacies."

"O.K., Ms. Lanza, we'll take him off your hands."

leslyn said...

Craig Landon at 8:49 in the "rubbernecking" post has a perceptive comment. Below is an excerpt, but read the whole thing.

There is no higher meaning, no deeper truth, no divine will. You cannot say that there was a reason for this. I think that is why it’s so hard to accept it, because all we know is that this darkness is always there.

As much as I have always believed that closing so many mental institutions was a mistake, it wouldn't entirely solve the problem of evil.

Mick said...

Another false flag purpetrated by the Usurper's handlers--- and then he goes on TV w/ those fake tears--- puhleaze.

Mother never worked at the school. Why would she have these guns? What about the man that was arrested, wearing Camos (like the supposed shooter), in the woods behind the school? Why is any mention of that being scrubbed--- just like in Aurora-- where intial reports stated they were looking for a gunman in a blue plaid shirt, and a second gas mask was found at the far end of the building. Both "suspects" were "brilliant" loners. Both suspects fathers were big wigs in the financiaL industry. To complete the takeover of our sovereignty enacted by the Usurpation of the Presidency w/ a British subject they must take away our guns--- since they guarentee the rest of the bill of rights--- inalienable rights given by god--- not any government.

Renee said...

Why didn't the parents push for guardianship over his mental health at 18?

Were the needs for his mental health discussed in the divorce decree four years ago when he was 16?

MayBee said...

He shot his way into the school. He was not buzzed in.

whoresoftheinternet said...

School was in CT, right?

Then likely were from lefty parents, and would grow up to be lefties.

Good riddance.

roesch/voltaire said...

Althouse I don't understand why you don't understand why this women had to have three guns in her house, after all the common mantra is everyone must get guns because that will make us safer as we shoot at the shooters. frankly,I want to wait for more details before I dish out cheap criticism or second guessing, but at the same time,I don't want to sink into the this is America today and there is little we can do about it.

Darrell said...

Some problems can't be totally eliminated.

This is one of them.

Browndog said...

No one seems to bother to ask why the 2nd Amendment even exists. Or guns for that matter.

The answer, of course, is simple.

Bad people do bad things. Always have, always will.

Liberals, on the other hand, think there is no such thing. There are no bad people, just bad policies that cause good people to do bad things.

William said...

You can argue that the advantages of 2nd Amendment rights outweigh the disadvantages. You might be right and, for sure, in America you will win the argument. But please admit that killings such as this are one of the disadvantages....A similar argument can be made about the 1st Amendment. I'm sure that the intensive press coverage and demonization of the killer in some way feeds into the seductive power of evil and inspires borderline cases to go over the edge. Perhaps the advantages of a free press outweigh the dynamics of spree killings, but a free press is part of the phenomenon. These mass killings, like teen age suicides, always seem to happen in clusters.... You're right. Whatever restraints we apply, there will be monsters who figure out how to loose the binds. But sixty five spree killings in three years. We're doing something wrong.

ironrailsironweights said...

Mom was able to stay home with Adam because her ex was paying her $20K a month alimony.

Peter

Ipso Fatso said...

The changes in mental health laws started in the 1950s with the advent of Thorazine which was thought to be a miracle drug. Having worked in the mental health field early on in my career, I can tell you that the vast majority of the patients we saw did not voluntarily take their meds. They simply thought they were fine and had little awareness of how their behavior effected other people or how destructive they could be. That is why they ended up back in a hospital. My guess is, and it is just that, this young man exhibited aggressive or violent behavior to others including his mother over the years. This did not just come out of nowhere and the obvious question to ask, which others have done, is why did she have those guns? I don’t know if we will ever truly know the answer to that but one thing we should be looking at in this country is how we treat mental illness and what steps we can take to help the mentally ill, including brining back long term hospitalization.

Roger J. said...

R/V--I submit there is little the nation, and its laws can do about it. If guns are taken away, evil people will find other ways to commit murder--what, sir, is your solution to the bigger question: how do you eliminate evil? legislating to eliminate it isnt going to work. I am genuinely interested in your solution and promise to consider it.

leslyn said...

So the question becomes, where is the line for deciding who should be institutionalized, and when?

We know that many serial killers tortured small animals when they were young, and/or were firebugs. If a child shows these tendencies, do we institutionalize? When?

Would we institutionalize as a form of pre-emptive strike based on certain characteristics? What would they be.

There are no easy answers on this. I certainly don't have them.

Quayle said...

We're so sympathetic to children,

Bull crap!

We're running at a 40% divorce rate without social condemnation.

We don't give a crap about children.

We expect them to buck up and shut up.

SGT Ted said...

Palladian has it nailed. Out come the control freaks and authoritarians of both sides to tell us how we should surrender our freedom so that somebody will feel "safe".

Palladian has it nailed.

Ipso Fatso said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Darrell said...

Some women were calling into a radio talk show this morning saying that their sons refused to take their medicine at around age 12 and the authorites (legal and medical) sided with the sons, not them. At age 18 the sons would be considered fully emancipated and totally out of their control. I don't know if any of this is true, but it sounds like it may be a factor if so.

Rustling Leaves said...

A gamer? Perhaps Asperger's, an inability to feel pain, an obsession with video games, and access to a gun are a bad combination. Perhaps something as simple as redirecting his interests (before they took hold) could have prevented this. Considering his condition, it is possible he was unable to distinguish a real life killing spree from a video game. Does that mean we should band video games and guns and lock up every kid with Asperger's. No, but perhaps kids with Asperger's should be more closely monitored and access to unhealthy obsessions prevented.

EDH said...

The elementary school where I went to kindergarten in the 1960s was immediately surrounded by no fewer than five mental institutions, most of them state-run.

The patients were a regular presence, whether they were allowed out for the day or had temporarily escaped before the men in the white coats came, literally.

For kids that young, it really doesn't take any indoctrination to view the institutionalized patients as different and often scary.

I remember my kindergarten teacher herding the class behind the school when one of the dangerous ones escaped the high security facility and approached the playground during recess. I'll never forget the sound of the alarm horn that we'd always hear across the neighborhood for at least a mile whenever one escaped.

The residential wards are all pretty much closed now and the land sold for condos.

Aside, the condo Mitt Romney downsized to is on former grounds of the most elite private mental hospital down the street just over the town line. Alex Beam wrote a book about it, "Gracefully Insane".

""The insane asylum seems to be the goal of every good and conscious Bostonian," Clover Adams wrote in 1879. The asylum she was referring to is the now legendary McLean Hospital in Belmont, Mass., and in this fascinating, gossipy social history, Boston Globe columnist Beam pries open its well-guarded records for a look at the life of the storied institution. McLean is best known today for its parade of famous patients like Sylvia Plath, Robert Lowell, Anne Sexton, Ray Charles and all three [James] Taylor [siblings]. [It also looms large in The Bell Jar and Girl, Interrupted, written by former patients Sylvia Plath and Susanna Kaysen.] But these notable "alumni" followed in the footsteps of generations of privileged clientele drawn primarily from Boston's most elite families. From its 1817 inception, McLean's trustees aimed to provide a discreet and appropriately opulent setting for the convalescence of the upper classes. The 250-acre grounds a scattering of Tudor mansions among scrub woods and groomed lawns were planned by landscape designer Frederick Law Olmsted (later a McLean patient himself). The hospital offered private rooms, tennis courts, a bowling alley and the latest cures. Beam traces the hospital's place in the history of psychiatric treatment, from the early days of ice water therapies and moral management through the introduction of modern psychopharmacology. He discusses McLean's current condition neither individuals nor insurers can afford McLean's long-term care, and the downsized hospital faces an uncertain future. More than a history of a psychiatric institution, the book offers an unusual glimpse of a celebrated American estate: the Boston aristocracy that produced, for nearly two centuries, an endless stream of brilliant, troubled eccentrics and the equally brilliant and eccentric doctors who lined up to treat them.

madAsHell said...

Diane Sawyer did a special hour long news cast from Newtown on ABC. They only had 5 minutes of facts, so they interviewed people that proclaimed second hand knowledge.

Later on in the evening, I heard someone explain that special national newscasts are exactly the wrong thing to do. The newscast is notoriety for the shooter, and this is probably enough to inspire copy-cat situations.

Ipso Fatso said...

Sorry for the double post, I don't know how that happened.

virgil xenophon said...

@Palladian/

On Target. Are you sure you're not my long lost blood brother?

Hagar said...

The closing of the mental institutions is a separate issue. That has to do with the people we see shuffling around talking to unseen entities and living under bridges, etc. (over-simplified).

Few, if any, of the shooters, would have been subject to that kind of commitment.

kcom said...

Here's another failure of gun control:

Sylvia Seegrist went psycho and killed three innocent people at the Springfield, Pa., mall

"Around 4 p.m. on Wednesday, Oct. 30, 1985, Sylvia Seegrist, dressed in Army fatigues and black boots, parked her car at the front of the Springfield Mall, stepped out and started shooting. Bullets from her .22 semi-automatic rifle missed her first targets — a woman at an ATM and a man walking in the lot."

Right?

But if you read the article, you see the big failure is one of kook control.

"Long before the bullets started flying, everyone knew something was very wrong with Sylvia Seegrist.

Acquaintances said she was always angry and nicknamed her “Ms. Rambo.”

Even her mother was terrified. In July 1985, Ruth Seegrist wrote an article for a Pennsylvania paper, the Springfield Press, about life with her paranoid schizophrenic 25-year-old daughter. She had pleaded for years to keep her child locked up, but to no avail. “What do you need? Blood on the floor?” she wrote."


...

"Soon after, she was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and committed for the first of a dozen stays in mental health facilities. But her commitments were brief because of laws, drafted to protect the rights of the mentally ill, that made it difficult to lock her up against her will.

She remained free, even after she stabbed a guidance counselor, tried to strangle her mother, and talked constantly about killing people."

John Cunningham said...

How about the Dangerous Lunatic Incarceration Act of 2013? in a nation this size, we should have 3 to 4 million schizos and nutcases locked up. we had over a million in nuthouses back in the 50s. time to bring back the laughing academies. arming some teachers, as in Israel, is an obvious response also.

Palladian said...

The mental health "profession" is mostly a pseudoscience that has harmed and destroyed far more people than it has ever helped. The calls to reinstate government run institutions is nothing more than the "conservative" analog to the "liberal" gun-grabbers "Do Something!" yawp, an impotent attempt to correct the non-correctable problem of human nature.

AllenS said...

Maybe the mother was given the guns legally through the Fast and Furious program.

Elle said...

Perfection Palladian.

DCS said...

"Journalists" need to be registered. I'm a retired physician. Years ago another physician with the same last name was accused of groping a female patient. The name of his group practice was similar, but not identical, to mine. In less than an hour more than one local TV and radio stations had broadcast that I was the perp. I was working at the time, unaware until worried patients began calling the switchboard asking what was going on. Think I got an apology? Think again. Meteorology and reporting are two fields where there are no consequences for making mistakes.

Ann Althouse said...

"The reports of the mother working at the school seem to be false. So, you're speculation is over the top."

My link goes to the New York Times, the current version of the story. I have seen places saying maybe she didn't work there, but the Times is keeping its version up, including the part about why the killer was buzzed in. I check it out before speculating, which I kept circumspect. You should have been here in person for the conversation if you wanted to hear over the top. When I do over the top here, you will know it.

Ann Althouse said...

This is restraint, my faint-hearted friend.

AllenS said...

You see, when the government of Obama decides to pass out guns through some program, everything is like totally cool.

Roger J. said...

Palladian is on fire this morning and is also exacly right. Well done, sir

Inga said...

The latest reporting is that he was not buzzed into the school, he shot his way in.

Having worked at an institution for the mentally ill, many who were chronically schizophrenic, there IS a need for a safe place for them. I've also seen those who were institutionalized with misdiagnoses from years ago, who most certainly didn't belong there. There isn't a good solution.

As a liberal I know this will sound strange, but with the proliferation of guns already in America, new laws won't help much. I'm at the point where I think we should arm and train those who are responsible for the safety of children. In malls increase armed security guards, same thing goes for movie theaters, concert halls, anywhere large groups gather.

We are an armed nation, we might as well face it and look like one. Might save some lives.

virgil xenophon said...

I might add that violent crime of all kinds in the US is trending down, down, down, since states have increasingly allowed "concealed carry" while violent crime of all types is simply exploding in "gun free" Great Britain.

Mick said...

"My link goes to the New York Times, "


The NY Times is not "news", it's propaganda 24/7, now fully in support of the criminal Usurper-- i.e Obama campaign headquarters.

Roger J. said...

Governments nor their appointed functionaries cannot eliminate evil--Pure and simple. Evil exists and always will--it is a component part of humanity.

virgil xenophon said...

For once Inga speak Heap Big Medicine..

Palladian said...

Let's take this opportunity to throw in the dungeon all the inconvenient people deemed "insane" by some also-ran with a psychology degree! Maybe we can fashion bars for tge windows and gates for the doors from the melted-down remains of all the scary guns after we confiscate them!

MayBee said...

Institutionalizing people like him or the Aurora shooter are not the answer.

But helping parents recognize the symptoms that may lead to these acts, and letting them know what access to resources they have may be very helpful.

We spend a great deal of time talking about "women's health", and I think maybe we need to start talking about men's health now.

MayBee said...

Althouse- the police just had a press conference and said the shooter was not buzzed in, that he broke in.

Granny Jan said...

AA: She looks like a victim, but could she and her son have been operating together?

OK, I agree, it's not "over the top".
It's worse than that.

miss j said...

Of course you can be "over the top" on the internet and in your home. That is your right.

Certainly you realize that many find your wild speculations (based on no facts) to be cold-hearted and bizarre, my think-skinned writer.

EMD said...

"We are an armed nation, we might as well face it and look like one. Might save some lives."

Places with high concentrations of "easy" victims will always be targets for those sick enough to prey upon them.

I agree with Inga.

virgil xenophon said...

Palladian@9:44 am is again correct. Conservatives should beware what they wish fore. If a major network of "institutional" centers ever were to be re-established, who do you think the liberals who would make decisions as to who is forcibly, involuntarily, admitted will be defined as "a threat to society?" Tgh3e net (bioth literally and figuratively) will be spread WIDE. Obama et al would salivate at the opportunity..

One caveat, Palladian. Psychotropic Medications (Yes, there are abuses, I realize)DO GREATLY aid in keeping the dysfunctions of the mentally ill manageable..

Emil Blatz said...

Yes, but who doesn't know a parent that is doing all the wrong things for their child, convinced that they are helping him/her? I know a woman who has a 20 or 21 year old son. She is of means and has paid enormous sums for drug detox/rehabilitation for him. As a celebration of his supposed rehabilitation she buys him the motorcycle he always wanted. He crashes it, in a collision which was not his fault, and walks away with minor injuries. The bike is totaled, so she buys him another motorcycle. He is struck while riding that motorcycle (other motorist totally at fault) and seriously injured, requiring surgery and physical rehab, and pain medication. So, she gets him yet another motorcycle and puts him through another drug rehab to cure him from addiction to the pain meds prescribed after crash #2. Everyone who knows this situation is left scratching their heads.

Palladian said...

I'm all for good drugs, virgil. I'm alive because of them. But that's science, not pseudoscience.

Quayle said...

... including the part about why the killer was buzzed in.

The state police now contradicted this.

They sat entry was forced.

virgil xenophon said...

***WHERE did those typos come from? Spell-check is my friend--I must visit her more often..

Bob Boyd said...

We could turn the whole country into a supervised living institution.
Then we wouldn't have to worry.

edutcher said...

Part of the problem is the fact the Lefties knew what was best for people like this - and rammed it through the courts when sensible people wouldn't go along.

That said, it's also true you can't institutionalize somebody just for being weird. If so, Harry Belafonte would be able to implement his solutiuon to our problems.

Rustling Leaves said...

@Inga- Perhaps a voluntary civilian force to supplement cops. Require extensive training, then allow certified individuals to carry in vulnerable places like schools (or have quick access to guns in very secure lockboxes).

Biff Styles said...

Ann Althouse said...

When I do over the top here, you will know it.


Ms. Rambo?

Jay said...

When something like this happens and your knee-jerk reaction (I heard a guy on the radio shouting yesterday they were semi-automatic pistols!) is to say we need more gun laws, when you do not know how the shooter obtained the guns, you're a fucking moron.

Inga said...

Rustling leaves, that would make some folks very uncomfortable, they would consider them Obama's brownshirts, or something similar. I think private security agencies can make a killing ( sorry, insensitive) off of these services. More jobs, more revenue, more safety, everybody happy?

We got guns to control those who got guns.

ironrailsironweights said...

The elementary school where I went to kindergarten in the 1960s was immediately surrounded by no fewer than five mental institutions, most of them state-run.

Sandy Hook Elementary School is just down the road from a huge former mental hospital that had been closed about 20 years ago as part of the deinstitutionalization wave.

Peter

Rustling Leaves said...

Personally, I hate guns, they scare the hell out of me and I don't want one in my house. However, I would not want to live in a world where criminals knew for sure that law abiding citizens were unarmed. I gain protection simply from the impression that I may have a gun in my house even if I don't. I also appreciate the fact that some of my neighbors are armed. What would deter criminals if we were all left vulnerable and defenseless? Sadly, the cops can't stop every crime before it occurs.

virgil xenophon said...

Inga, given the uneven caliber of personnel that pvt security agencies hire, most would be agast at such an idea. Think TSA types at airports and their quality of judgement...why not give such jobs exclusively to veterans who have seen combat and need a job?

Revenant said...

The article is doing its best to make those weapons seems strange and terrifying.

Firstly, the Bushmaster is NOT designed for military use. It is designed for civilian and law enforcement use. No military on Earth uses those rifles.

Secondly, while it is hypothetically possible to fire "five rounds a second" from one of those two pistols, you aren't going to hit a damned thing if you do. Like all semi-automatics, they fire whenever you pull the trigger.

Thirdly, the rifle is deceptively listed as a weapon the killer "used" even though news reports indicate he only used the pistols, and left the rifle in the car. For the fairly obvious reason that they wouldn't have buzzed him in if he was carrying a rifle.

Here's an honest summary of the weapons he used for the killing: "two handguns typical of those carried by police throughout America". Not super-deadly military-grade weaponry -- ordinary pistols.

Petunia said...

I wish parents would stop letting their children be interviewed by the media vultures. Just take the kids home and let them deal with this in peace. We don't need to see a traumatized little kid on national TV.

Rustling Leaves said...

@Inga- there would have to be zero tolerance for abuse of power.

Matthew Sablan said...

"But please admit that killings such as this are one of the disadvantages."

-- A killing like this could easily happen in a world without the Second Amendment. One does not follow the other.

Inga said...

Virgil! That is a great idea, but who would pay for them? Is TSA paid by taxpayers, or is it private? I should know that I suppose.

I do think giving these jobs to veterans is an excellent idea.

Aridog said...

EDH said...

The elementary school where I went to kindergarten in the 1960s was immediately surrounded by no fewer than five mental institutions, ...[snip]... The patients were a regular presence, whether they were allowed out for the day or had temporarily escaped ...

Sounds like you grew up in Northville, Michigan?

Revenant said...

In this country there have been sixty five incidents like this in the past three years. That's quite a lot.

No, that's one incident per year per fifteen million Americans. Trivial.

pm317 said...

Is the father in the picture at all? Why was it all the mother's responsibility to take care of this sick guy? If there was a divorce between the parents, that says something about this culture -- it is too easy for the father to walk away from the problem children they bring into this world and dump all that on the mother.

virgil xenophon said...

@Bob Boyd/

What makes you think we're not already on that path, given the latest news about survaillance, data-mining techniques and the increasing power of the "regulatory state" at all levels of government..

Worse, we are increasingly pushing decisions about local affairs about which we have some direct control via local elections to the federal level into the hands of untouchable bureaucrats and the courts. As one Fed Dist judge for the 6th Circuit once said at a commission on judicial administration: "The problem is that there is not a side-walk zoning dispute in the smallest township in the land that cannot be gotten into federal court if only the attnys involved are both energetic and creative enough."

EMD said...

Rustling leaves, that would make some folks very uncomfortable, they would consider them Obama's brownshirts, or something similar. I think private security agencies can make a killing ( sorry, insensitive) off of these services. More jobs, more revenue, more safety, everybody happy?

As part of a federal effort, yes, they would make people uncomfortable.

However, as a local issue, it might be more successful. I do agree with the private security firm angle — if I were a schools superintendent I would favor exploring the cost analysis for hiring an armed security official for each school in my district.

Rustling Leaves said...

@Inga- voluntary and unpaid is the key. It should not be a primary job. Let them be in every neighborhood and blended in with the worforce. Teachers, mall employees, nurses etc. If a criminal had the impression that an armed defender could be lurking anywhere, then they may think twice.

Matthew Sablan said...

You know a lesson we are supposed to learn every time there is a mass shooting but no one ever learns?

The initial reports are frequently incorrect, and we should hold off on making any statements until all the information is in because the news media will never be held accountable for being wrong.

EMD said...

We have useless "gun free zone" stickers on the door where I work. It's like a beacon to nutjobs who want an easy target-rich environment.

I do take comfort, however, in knowing at least one employee (an ex-Marine) who keeps a Glock in his car in the parking lot.

EMD said...

If a criminal had the impression that an armed defender could be lurking anywhere, then they may think twice.

May not stop the mentally ill, but will make it more difficult for them to kill unhindered.

Aridog said...

William said [twice] ...

In this country there have been sixty five incidents like this in the past three years...

Google again, please...its in the "past three decades"..e.g., 30 years. LINK to the summary:

Since 1982, there have been at least 62 mass murders* carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states ...

Mother Jones provides maps of locations and distinguishes between "spree" and "mass" killing.

virgil xenophon said...

@Inga. You can thank my wife the RN for the idea--one of the first thing she thought of..

BTW, what do you think of the ghoulish way they are handling the bodies? This is no big mystery that needs lengthy investigation. Why put the parents thru all the trauma? Just have the coroner pronounce each dead, then one by one take the body to a pvt room for id by the family--the parents know what the kid was wearing, etc. Autopsy's will be done later anyway. But to leave them decomposing like that over such an extended period of time is uncoscionable..

EMD said...

I wonder if cars held 30-35 people each, if we would have to have a national dialogue about "car control."

rhhardin said...

Mentally ill plants are managed with heliotropic medications.

Moose said...

Didn't read all the comments - but I did see a couple things in the news reports that piqued my interest. The first was that all 3 weapons were registered in the mother's name. The second thing was that she was divorced. So why did this woman have 3 guns like this? From what I read of her - how and where she lived - she didn't come across as a gun aficionado. Second thing is - the boy had had behavioral troubles for a some time. Why did guns with a troubled child in the house? The final thing that made me suspicious of the mother was - she was described as "devoted". Why did this woman have guns in the house if she was so devoted? My take on it was that she was the co-enabler here - she bought to weapons to placate her disturbed child...

Michael K said...

" SGT Ted said...
You can make arguments for the 2nd amendment, but nothing about this case is supportive of 2nd amendment rights.

Other than the fact that it is a Consititional Right, just like the other rights. Even just like some of the "rights" that aren't even written down, or emanate from some penumbra."

It won't be after Obama gets his first USSC nomination confirmed.




virgil xenophon said...

Moose is tracking a valid spoor here..

edutcher said...

Jay said...

When something like this happens and your knee-jerk reaction (I heard a guy on the radio shouting yesterday they were semi-automatic pistols!) is to say we need more gun laws, when you do not know how the shooter obtained the guns, you're a fucking moron.

These morons don't even understand the difference between automatic and semi-automatic.

This is the problem with the Lefties - throw them a few buzz words and they will go off on their own, sure in the knowledge they know exactly what they're talking about.

MayBee said...

virgil- I agree. I can't imagine why they are putting the parents through this in pursuit of some sort of procedure.

Don't make the parents imagine their babies alone in the room all night long. Let them hold them one more time. The rest can wait.

Matthew Sablan said...

This shooting also demonstrates another problem. Most of our journalists are unable to do basic fact checks and verify their stories before hitting post, er, I mean, before going through layers of fact checkers and a section and chief editor and publishing their work.

Bob Boyd said...

@virgil
What makes you think I don't think what you don't think I think?

David said...

When I was a young lawyer, our city's "young lawyer" group of the bar association had a pro bono project. It was a very effective attack on forced treatment and detention of the severely mentally ill. This was part of a national movement in the same direction.

It was fruitless to ask whether it was a good idea to reduce judicial and medical power to enforce treatment of the mentally ill. Though in many ways I was a fine young liberal it didn't take me long to reach a personal conclusion that this was a bad idea. It drove me away from the bar group, and was a important step in my starting to re-examine my political views.

This was 40 years ago. These incidents are a result of such initiatives.

Palladian said...

This was 40 years ago. These incidents are a result of such initiatives.

You're full of shit.

Aridog said...

Rustling Leaves said...

@Inga- voluntary and unpaid is the key...

Once upon a time we had those...they were called "Vigilence Commitees."

I'm with Inga on this one...at least in that I do not want law enforcement detached from government per se. It is, after all, the sole necessary function of government (in my not so humble opinion)..that being protection and defense of the citizenry.

Privatize water departments, libraries, all social services, etc...and hire more cops and firemen and pay them well. Also ditto Inga on hiring Veterans with a much greater preference than the weak ass Vet-Preference ratings of 5 or 10...which essentially lets HR ignore it when they chose to by pumping up the other preference criteria.

Check out the "qualifications" some time for many federal government jobs...don't be shocked in you see "post graduate work" or "PhD" listed for experience equivalence for a janitorial position.

No, f'ing NO...let the veterans preference be 85% of a qualification rating, with 7.5% for reading proficiency and 7.5% for being able to count to 11 without removing a shoe or unzipping a fly.

carrie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Badger PUndit said...

Ann, maybe someone has already mentioned this, but Jim Hoft (Gateway Pundit) had a nice analysis of hope the liberal push to deinstitutionalize the mentally ill may have helped bring about this incident:
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/12/liberal-policies-are-to-blame-for-todays-mass-shooting-in-newtown-ct

Sure hope Obama will appoint a task force, or maybe hold brainstorming sessions at the White House, about institutionalizing some of the dangerous potential mass-murderers in our midst, "regardless of politics" -- just as the cries of civil libertarians haven't stopped Obama from taking "meaningful action" on drone strikes and long-term institutionalization of terrorists!

carrie said...

I agree 100% with institutionalizing the mentally ill. Once a kid turns 18, their parents lose control over their health care and the nightmares really begin. I knew a family that had a mentally ill son who murdered someone in Madison several years ago. The parents didn't think their son was violent. The parents gave the son a gun so that he could do target practice which they believed would settle his nerves. It might have done that, but when he heard the voice in his head telling him to go murder this store owner in downtown Madison,he had easy access to a gun. So, the son is institutionalized now and he should have been institutionalized long before the murder, but he didn't want help and until his parents had a real strong reason to believe that he was a danger to himself or society, there was nothing they could do.

David said...

pm317 said...
Is the father in the picture at all? Why was it all the mother's responsibility to take care of this sick guy? If there was a divorce between the parents, that says something about this culture -- it is too easy for the father to walk away from the problem children they bring into this world and dump all that on the mother.


We don't know, do we? Perhaps mama's alimony and family support were based on her undertaking this task, and she chose to do so. Point is we don't know.

AJ Lynch said...

I wonder if Jesse Jackson Jr owns any guns?

LawGuy5000 said...

"Shouldn't some suspicion fall on the mother? She looks like a victim, but could she and her son have been operating together?"

Yes, she looks like a victim, because she was shot dead. I am used to wild speculation on your part. After all, this is a blog, not journalism. Nonetheless, that's pretty offensive. Call me thin skinned.

LawGuy5000 said...

"Shouldn't some suspicion fall on the mother? She looks like a victim, but could she and her son have been operating together?"

Yes, she looks like a victim, because she was shot dead. I am used to wild speculation on your part. After all, this is a blog, not journalism. Nonetheless, that's pretty offensive. Call me thin skinned.

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

When I read, regarding mother, that 'she needed to stay with him' I assumed that it was a family of modest means. After reading the linked article, it seems that it is not at all true that she 'needed to stay with him' except from her enmeshment. Now it may be that some placement was tried and he was able to object; so guardianship laws would need to be looked at. Regardless of what one thinks of psychiatry or psychology, one of the values of the professional playing a role is that we are independent of the family structure, and one of the developmental tasks of a child is to participate in relationships outside the home. One of the perhaps unfortunate effects of these murders is that kids may be withdrawn from schools for safety reasons.

From a preventive standpoint, I don't know that we want to go just 'voting people off the island,' perhaps like Palladin I like being on it. He was weird because he 'carried his books in a black briefcase rather than a backpack.' If there were indicators of outward violence they weren't cited in the article.

David said...

Palladian, I probably am full of shit, but the inability to intervene with the severely mentally ill has its consequences. I do not mean to say that the inability to intervene is the sole driver of the incidents. There is so much more. But some of these shooters are clearly in need of intervention and there is no way to do it.

Whether this is such a case is still unclear,

Michael K said...

" Palladian said...
Let's take this opportunity to throw in the dungeon all the inconvenient people deemed "insane" by some also-ran with a psychology degree! Maybe we can fashion bars for tge windows and gates for the doors from the melted-down remains of all the scary guns after we confiscate them!"

This is the mantra of Scientology and the anti-treatment forces that are mostly on the left. Insanity is a "social construct" or is a method of controlling those who are "only different." This was the message of the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," which was devastating when it came out in the 60s.

You are right in the mold of folks like Thomas Szasz who has made a nice living writing books that adopt your point.

Psychiatry was its own worst enemy from 1920 to 1960 as Psychoanalysis became the only game in town. The traditional psychiatrists who had studied genetics and other potential mechanisms were driven out of the field by the analysts. The chair of Yale's psychiatry department was retired by younger members who were analysts about 1950.

The appearance of thorazine in the late 1950s gave the anti-institution forces the lever they needed to move the world. The analysts of the time thought they could use "talk therapy" on psychotics. It doesn't work. The outpatient clinics were supposed to provide the alternative to mental hospitals but there was never enough money and governors, including Ronald Reagan in California, saw this as a way to cut budgets.

The result was the "homeless problem" and occasional outbreaks like this one. Families who try to get psychotic relatives committed find constant opposition, often using the words Palladian posted above.

I recommend the book, My brother, Ron as a great explanation of what happened and its effect on families of the mentally ill. The glib dismissals of the "freedom" lobby does not include much knowledge.

elkh1 said...

Guns don't kill people, crazies kill people.

Ban crazies.

William said...

@aridog: I heard the report of sixty five shootings in three years on PBS this morning. My bad....I still think that if there are a lot of firearms in circulation, some of them will fall into the hands of lunatics. I'm not arguing against the 2nd amendment, but I do think this should be acknowledged as a drawback. I can also see where other amendments are used against the common good. And, yes, you're right if you start messing with the Bill of Rights, there's an excellent chance you will do more harm than good.

Aridog said...

EMD said...

We have useless "gun free zone" stickers on the door where I work. It's like a beacon to nutjobs who want an easy target-rich environment.

My last office was in the Federal building here...where guns are not allowed except for certified LEO's. Signs say so regarding the public, not LEO's. Doesn't stop nuts from trying to come in, however. They seem oblivious to the fact that about 3000 of the 5000 folks in the building are LEO's and armed to hilt. Secret Service alone can put a couple dozen ninjas with sub-machine gun on the floors or the perimeter on a moments notice. Then there's the FBI, et al...

One wacko shot and killed a Federal Protective Service officer in the lobby 21 Sep 2001 before being shot down himself by other officers. FPS Ofcr. Ron Sheffield was both a friend and neighbor.

Ron was wearing a bullet proof vest, but in his attempt to disarm the assailant, he was leaning forward and turned sideways to the gunman...and was shot through the armpit and heart.

As others have said here...you cannot protect against or eradicate all evil..evil exists. Doing the right thing to protect others, Ron Sheffield died. He was a USMC veteran and father of two.

SteveOrr said...

The legal owner of the guns was murdered by her own son.

What more powerful disincentive could the state have possibly threatened to discourage this woman from owning guns?

leslyn said...

Palladian said... The mental health "profession" is mostly a pseudoscience that has harmed and destroyed far more people than it has ever helped.

I suppose if you go all the way back to Bedlam, and then add them all up in the aggregate, you may be right.

Inga said...

One of the problems of schizophrenics living out in the community is that when they feel better, many stop taking their meds and they are back into full hallucinations. I remember, when working at Milwaukee County Psych Hospital years ago, the terrible side effects of Thorazine, Parkinsonianism. I forgot what we used to give for the Parkinsonianism, started with an A, which had its own set of side effects. Schizophrenia is a devastating condition.

I'm sure there are better anti psychotic meds nowadays, but probably not without some nasty side effects which make many stop taking their meds.

jr565 said...

William wrote:
Whatever restraints we apply, there will be monsters who figure out how to loose the binds. But sixty five spree killings in three years. We're doing something wrong.


Fucking arm the security guards at the school! Spree killers go for places of opportunity where they can do the most damage. And shools are filled with defenseless people none of whom have guns, not even most security guards.
if teachers are cowering in a classroom with kids and their only defense is to tell the kids it's going to be ok, then something is wrong. Somebody, the teachers, security should have in place safeguards to deal with threats. And those safeguards will most assuredly include armed people.

leslyn said...

Michael K said

"Insanity is [used as] a "social construct" or is a method of controlling those who are "only different." This was the message of the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," which was devastating when it came out in the 60s.

"Cuckoo's Nest" had a horrible glorification of the antihero. I was appalled when I saw it.

acm said...

The fact that the family had money does NOT mean that the mom was choosing not to put her son in a hospital, for selfish creepy reasons or any other. Even if you pay through the nose a hospital needs a clear documented reason to hold someone, unless he or she signs his or her self over to the hospital. For a childless adult that usually means documented (by other doctors) suicide attempts or assaults. Its actually easier to get a guardian appointed for a mentally ill adult who has children...how mch of that is simple leverage (we can charge you with child endangerment for just being crazy around your kids and then you go to jail instead of hospital or your parents) I'm not sure.

leslyn said...

Jr565 said,

"Fucking arm the security guards at the school!"
Your solution sounds so simple, but isn't.

You'd have to pay the security companies a LOT more to find, train and qualify the right people--most likely former LEOs. Anything less would be putting an inexperienced and unqualified person in the school with a gun in his or her hand who will most likely shoot wildly at the wrong people in a provocation.

I don't see people clamoring here to raise property taxes for schools to do that. It's bad enough that they have to pay teachers.

DADvocate said...

A couple of times now, I've seen CNN contributor, FBI's former assistant director, Tom Fuentes speak about the shooting and mental health. This is what he said yesterday talking to Wolf Blitzer:

BLITZER: You've been involved in law enforcement your whole life. Is there anything we can learn from this and move forward to try to make sure it doesn't happen again?

FUENTES: No.

BLITZER: It's going to happen again?

FUENTES: It's going to happen again. We don't change anything of the basics. We don't -- we haven't made the improvements to our mental health system to take care of people that are severely disturbed. We haven't done anything to prevent the severely disturbed from obtaining the weapons that are so prevalent in our society. So as long as you have disturbed people able to obtain weapons and act out with those weapons --

BLITZER: Because a lot of folks, immediately as soon as they hear this, they'll say, you know, that guns are too -- assault weapons, guns, are too available, too easy to get.

FUENTES: Well, what they say -- what we say now is we can't talk about it. Everybody is in mourning. It's too soon, it's not appropriate. So at the time, later, when it is appropriate, we don't care. And nothing changes.

And I had a daughter at Virginia Tech down the hall from the first shooting, the first two people that were killed in that dorm, 10 rooms away. So that hit home for me very closely. What's changed since then? Not one thing in the state of Virginia has changed. I don't expect much will change here.


Does he really think there's nothing we can do to prevent if from happening again? He advocates improving the mental health system, which I heard him say again today. While gun control comes up on Blitzer's part, Fuentes seem to think mental health is as much or more of the problem.

Blitzer seems to have no clue about guns. I heard him say "semi-automatic caliber" today. "Semi-automatic" is a caliber?

I still wonder about the mother buying the guns and why. Both guns were full size 9mm semi-automatic pistols according to reports. Typically, someone wanting a pistol for concealed carry buys a compact model that can easily be hidden. But, she had to large pistols.

And, a Bushmaster .223? My boss has one of those, a good gun for hunting deer. Given that Adam Lanza was reasonably proficient at using the pistols at least, one has to wonder if she bought the guns for Adam to use thinking it would appease him in some way. It makes no sense that she would have three guns for just home defense or self-defense, especially considering the community she lived in.

Chip S. said...

Does he really think there's nothing we can do to prevent if from happening again?

He's saying that nothing will be done, b/c the status quo is the political equilibrium.

Aridog said...

DADvocate said ...

... a Bushmaster .223? My boss has one of those, a good gun for hunting deer ...

No offense intended, but...Yee Gawd, man...anyone using a .223 Remington (5.65 NATO) for legal deer hunting is an idiot. Several firms make M16/M-4 clones in .308 Winchester (7.62 NATO) caliber...are you sure that isn't what you meant.

Either that or your boss is a Camp Perry Master and shoots from a blind with a bench rest.

Mostly poachers us .22 caliber guns for deer, shooting a night under a spotlight, with truck windowsill or the hood for an effective bench rest.

virgil xenophon said...

@Bob Boyd/

LOL. Touche!

Hagar said...

The 9 mm. handguns pictured elsewhere do look like compact models made for concealed carry or police "back-up" guns.

The mother had four weapons registereed to her. The police for good measure also confiscated - at least temporarily - her ex-husband's guns - it is not said why - and the the total added is 3guns - 1 Henry rifle, 1 Enfield, and 1 shotgun. It looks like the x-husband was into antique guns or reproductions, and the shotgun was probably hers.

Another odd thing about this event is that only one person wounded is mentioned. Adam Lanza must have been an extra-ordinarily good pistol shot. It just is not that easy to shoot someone dead with a handgun. It is only in the movies that people fall over dead when a gun is pointed in their general direction.

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Harold said...

"pm317 said...
Is the father in the picture at all? Why was it all the mother's responsibility to take care of this sick guy? If there was a divorce between the parents, that says something about this culture -- it is too easy for the father to walk away from the problem children they bring into this world and dump all that on the mother.

12/15/12 10:30 AM"


At least one article I read said Daddy didn't want to get divorced- momnmy did. Fits in with stattistics that females initiate the vast majority of divorces- but go ahead, blame it on Daddy if you want to.

As for the guns, another article indicates that Mommy was an avid target shooter, and showed off her guns to friends- they weren't purchased for her son; they were hers.

And if you want real in depth coverage, forget U.S. newsapaper sites- got to the UK Daily Mail. The UK newspapers are oftimes the best and most accurate source of news about the United States.

I don't have links to the above articles- because I'd have to backtrack all that I've already read today. But the information is out there.

Inga said...

Why in God's name would the mother have had guns in the home, and went to shooting ranges with her son? Was she also mentally deranged in some way? Obviously neighbors and other relatives knew there was something seriously wrong with Adam. How could she not have worried about Adam using guns, she facilitated him being a good shot.

She wasn't a completely innocent victim of her son, makes me wonder if he wasn't a victim of his mother.

Ann Althouse said...

Cat's paw.

Hagar said...

pm317,

The father had the older brother, and neither of these had anything to do with this, except being dragged in by the nincompoop news media.

Inga said...

I just heard a report in which an ex sister in law was interviewed, she said the mother was a survivalist, she the mother thought there would be some sort of societal breakdown. Hmmmm, don't know if it's accurate , but that's an interesting twist.

DADvocate said...

No offense intended, but...Yee Gawd, man...anyone using a .223 Remington (5.65 NATO) for legal deer hunting is an idiot. Several firms make M16/M-4 clones in .308 Winchester (7.62 NATO) caliber...are you sure that isn't what you meant.

Could be wrong about what he uses it for. He doesn't hunt much except on his farm.

DADvocate said...

The 9 mm. handguns pictured elsewhere do look like compact models made for concealed carry or police "back-up" guns.

I didn't do thorough research on the models. One of the "experts" on TV said they were the same models carried by police and the pix I saw, the pistols looked pretty big in the hand holding them.

My main point being that she certainly seemed to have more fire power than one would need for simple self/home protection. And, Adam seemed to be proficient in using them.

Lydia said...

Michael K said...
The outpatient clinics were supposed to provide the alternative to mental hospitals but there was never enough money and governors, including Ronald Reagan in California, saw this as a way to cut budgets.

The result was the "homeless problem" and occasional outbreaks like this one.


The success of that "homeless" designation has got to be one of the left's most disgraceful accomplishments ever.

But, of course, it was a twofer for them: It hid the fact that the breakdown of the mental health system caused the problem, and it made everyone feel guilty about not providing enough money to help out those made poor by capitalism.

shiloh said...

"Now, the word is that Adam was not buzzed in."

Oops!

shiloh said...

Indeed, you'll know when Althouse is being over the top ...

My observation of the entire scene tells me Romney will have a decisive win.

ok, ok, she was just being foolish!

hombre said...

Inga wrote: "She wasn't a completely innocent victim of her son, makes me wonder if he wasn't a victim of his mother."

Since he killed her, most thoughtful people would think of her as the victim. I didn't realize that gun ownership rendered her "not completely innocent."

Inga wrote: "I just heard a report in which an ex sister in law was interviewed, she said the mother was a survivalist, she the mother thought there would be some sort of societal breakdown."

A survivalist? Well, that tears it for Inga. The mom was definitely not an innocent victim even if she was right about the societal breakdown.

Thanks for the gossip, Dearie.

Inga said...

Hombre, you don't address Althouse's similar but still different take on the mother's involvement. Scared of confronting Althouse?

hombre said...

shiloh wrote apparently quoting Althouse: Indeed, you'll know when Althouse is being over the top ... 'My observation of the entire scene tells me Romney will have a decisive win.'

ok, ok, she was just being foolish!


Underestimating the dumbass - excuse me, "low information" - vote isn't "over the top" or "foolish."

Unjustifiably hopeful, perhaps.

Inga said...

As Althouse said, the "Cat's Paw". I don't think it was intentional on the mothers part though, It may have backfired on her, so to speak.

shiloh said...

"Underestimating the dumbass - excuse me, "low information" - vote isn't "over the top" or "foolish."

Unjustifiably hopeful, perhaps."

hombre, the election is over so no need to turn into a pretzel w/further inane con rationalizations.

Indeed, sayin' Althouse was an idiot would be kind.

>

We now return you to cons "trying" to solve the gun problem er grade school gun massacre problem in America!

Jane said...

Why did this woman, who apparently knew this kid was a danger, not have trigger locks on the guns? Basic first step! My father has loads of guns and every one of them is trigger-locked for safety when the grandkids come to visit.

Hagar said...

Have to agree with Harold above. If you want to know, google "Daily Mail."

If the mother was a target shooting enthusiast, the Bushmaster makes sense.
Women do not go out for shooting that much, but when they do, they tend to be good. Also good reloaders.

Dadvocate,
Your friend the farmer probably also has rats, ground squirrels, and other varmints on his farm, and a good .223 is just the thing for that.

For the military, their thinking is that a high velocity .223 round will inflict some nasty wounds, and they would rather wound the enemy soldiers than kill them, since the wounded make a much bigger problem for them - at least in warfare among the more "civilized" nations.

hombre said...

Inga wrote: Hombre, you don't address Althouse's similar but still different take on the mother's involvement. Scared of confronting Althouse?

I actually concur with Althouse's apparent position on the institutionalization part as I have stated on later threads (before I got to this one).

As I read it, Althouse questioned the wisdom of the mother for a couple of decisions. Althouse did not extrapolate from there to the mother being less of a victim.

Her job as a blogger with an active comment section is to ask stimulating questions. That is hardly commensurate with your drawing and posting insensitive and illogical conclusions.

ambienisevil said...

This post is in very poor taste, you know that, right?

Latest update is also that he tried to buy his own gun at Dick's Sporting Goods, but was refused because he didn't want the background check and waiting period. The mom was from NH and like Sarah Palin grew up with guns.

One of my own first thoughts in poor taste was I'm glad he killed the mom because assholes will *find a way to blame her* and her life will become a hell - and you've proven my point.

There are a LOT of 20-somethings that require supervision - some of them rich kids with serious drug problems that get an attorney and sue for their trust fund. Funny, their parents aren't actually okay with letting them die on the curbside like good libertarians. That's a right they have to fight their parents for.

Of course the mom 'had issue' too - who wouldn't? or rather, who doesn't? but she didn't go slaughter a bunch kindergarteners.

(Or are you implying that it may have been some weird suicide pact?)






Aridog said...

DADvocate...ditto what Hagar said about farm use of a .223 rifle.

hombre said...

Shiloh wrote: hombre, the election is over so no need to turn into a pretzel w/further inane con rationalizations.

That's odd, shiloh, I thought you brought up the election with this quote: My observation of the entire scene tells me Romney will have a decisive win. (1:51) (Bolding in original.)

Or was Althouse talking about Romney engaging in a game of checkers that only you and she knew about?

William said...

In those cases where a web of pathology does not cause mental illness, mental illness will cause a web of pathology.....I think everyone who came into intimate contact with this young man will second guess their interactions with him for the rest of their lives. And it will never change the ending.... That such a young man can exist makes one call into question more basic things than the second amendment: the redemptive value of a mother's love, the existence of a benevolent God, our ability to handle mentally disturbed people competently, and lots of other things.

machine said...

Guns...guns...guns...we need more guns! Everyone needs to be walking around with guns!

Inga said...

Hombre,

Did you not read the last paragraph in Althouse's Post? Either you are being disingenuous or your reading comprehension is in question.

Inga said...

Ann Althouse said,

ADDED: "Why did Adam, after killing his mother, travel to the school where she worked? Shouldn't some suspicion fall on the mother? She looks like a victim, but could she and her son have been operating together? News reports say the guns were "apparently" hers, and Adam was buzzed past security at the school because the principal "recognized him as the son of a colleague." If she was a "colleague" and had such a troubled son, why hadn't she conveyed this information to them? If she was staying home from work to deal with his problems, why didn't they know it? What were her issues with them?"

Jack Sparks said...

Inga said:

As a liberal I know this will sound strange, but with the proliferation of guns already in America, new laws won't help much. I'm at the point where I think we should arm and train those who are responsible for the safety of children. In malls increase armed security guards, same thing goes for movie theaters, concert halls, anywhere large groups gather.

Let it never be said that Jack Sparks is unfair. I think Inga is a liar and a fool, but on this issue, she is absolutely right.

Inga said...

I don't agree with Althouse premise, that they may have been working together, but she was complicit in having guns around an unstable son and teaching him how to use them! Was she insane?

Inga said...

And let me reply to Jack Sparks, I'm usually correct, you're simply a fool for not recognizing it. :)

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

acm. In most states, there are three potential rationales for commitment. One of them is 'except for reasons of mental illness is unable to take care of his or her basic needs.' If mother 'needed' really to stay home to take care of Adam than that implies that this reason, the third rationale for commitment, is applicable.

Michael K said...

"We now return you to cons "trying" to solve the gun problem er grade school gun massacre problem in America!"

No, we return to your monomania about Obama being re-elected. Do you have another subject or is this the total content of your so-called mind ?

el polacko said...

i'm certainly not making excuses for the horrific murders but isn't it time that we recognize a certain pattern here ? we have, as is so often the case, a young man who's described as shy, introverted, a natty dresser who kept pens in his pocket and carried his belongings in a brief case, intelligent (the lone person who claims to have befriended him calls him a genius) and was, for these traits, branded 'weird' and was shunned socially...rejected by fellow students, teachers, neighbors, and family. then, when this person who has been rejected by society goes down a mental/emotional dark alley and finally snaps, we blame him for 'living in his own little world'.
maybe this guy was just nutty as a fruitcake and nothing could have prevented his tragic ending but when folks from his past come forward to say that he was always an 'outsider' maybe one of the things we ought to consider is how we, collectively, choose to exclude or include people and how that will, ultimately, effect the personalities and actions of those who are excluded.

shiloh said...

hombre

Althouse was so sure w/her inane prediction she posted it twice lol.

And yes, it's never a big deal when Althouse is wrong 'cause she's wrong quite often ...

wildswan said...

The is a cycle for the mentally ill:
Your child is mentally ill and "forgets" to take their meds. You have the child committed and after two weeks of being forced to take the drugs the child is reviewed and released and comes home because the child is OK because of having been forced to take his meds. At home the child stops taking the meds ... and repeat, as above, over and over. That is the cycle for many of the mentally ill in this country and everyone connected with them knows about it and nothing is done. No one comes forward with a plan for these repeaters.

So what are parents supposed to do? They actually can't get their children locked up and treated. There's rotation warehouse system - in for 15 days, out till collapse, in for 15 days, etc. Comments here seem to be based on the idea that parents have options which they don't actually have. There's no provision for repeaters.

Ann Althouse said...

Adam was severely mentally ill and those around him knew it.

True or false?

If true, then... what?

hombre said...

Inga wrote: "Did you not read the last paragraph in Althouse's Post? Either you are being disingenuous or your reading comprehension is in question."

Maybe you better read my comment again. You know the part about stimulating questions. Btw, Inga, you are no Althouse.

Renee said...

el polacko,


Who rejected who?

No one actually bullied him in the school, it seems that the school actually kept an eye that no one did. You have a right to be awkward in this country, be a loner with a brief case, and dress poorly.

I hated high school, was socially awkward, and had no friends. I wasn't bullied either. Did I need to see a psychiatrist and take an anti-depressant, because I didn't want to go to the prom? No.

I didn't want to kill anyone or commit suicide over something I knew was a temporary situation until graduation, I just waited it out until I reached adulthood.

Inga said...

Hombre, you are a sore loser, I gotcha and you can't admit it.

No I'm certainly no Althouse. You got that part right.

Elise Ronan said...

Pervasive attention from his mother? Institutionalize those that need support? Apparently not only do u have no concept of what supports and interventions those with special needs require but it seems for a law professor u missed the class on the Bill of Rights.

Adam Lanza was a very troubled individual with parents who obvioudly refused to desl with the realities of their sons illness. But to demonized a population of people simply because you are uneducated about the needs of those with developmental disabilities makes you out to be ignorant and a bigot.

Rustling Leaves said...

@Ann, was he mentally ill or did he have Asperger's? People with Asperger's tend to have obsessive hobbies and interests. Perhaps guns and violent video games are not healthy obsessions for a kid with Asperger's. Perhaps he may have found another interest to obsessively pursue had the adults in his life not enabled him.

Neo said...

Last night it also emerged Nancy was a member of the Doomsday Preppers movement, which believes people should prepare for end of the world.
Her former sister-in-law Marsha said she had turned her home ‘into a fortress’. She added: ‘Nancy had a survivalist philosophy which is why she was stockpiling guns. She had them for defense.
‘She was stockpiling food. She grew up on a farm in New Hampshire. She was skilled with guns. We talked about preppers and preparing for the economy collapsing.’

barribarri said...

Permanently imprison ALL mentally ill people.

And not just the violent schizophrenic either. Everyone with AUTISM, anxiety, depression, OCD, ADD, Tourette’s, Drug and alcohol addiction, Anorexia/Bulemia, Any serious Phobia, and anyone who has panic attacks.

And, after that, we’ll get started on the retards.

Then, the physically deformed.

Then, the gypsies.

Then, … oh, you get the idea.

Robert Stein said...

"We Have to Talk About Kevin" was mentioned above as a must-see. I must agree that this eerily tracked the Newtown massacre in many ways. In that movie, the mom was spared, but with all the pain, she seems to have preferred death.

The other very odd coincidence is that this movie was filmed in Connecticut. Eerie.