Althouse: Romney up by 1 in...

November 3, 2012

Romney up by 1 in...

... !!!... Minnesota!

303 comments:

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Nathan Alexander said...: leslyn, you said,
There's only one person around here I've seen dishing out hate and violence, and you're looking at him, Nathan.

Interestingly, as I read those words of yours, I was looking at your avatar.

Which is surely not what you intended to mean, but accurate nonetheless.

So we found out exactly how a liberal can be truthful: inadvertantly.; 11/3/12, 11:50 PM
Petunia said...: Inga, your posts tonight are insane as well as nasty. You expect someone whom you've mocked repeatedly to move over 1,000 miles, and his wife to quit her job, because you claim you will help them? And then when he declines, you continue to abuse him? Really? REALLY?

I'm glad you're so proud to be a liberal. God knows you're too hateful and ridiculous to be a conservative.; 11/3/12, 11:50 PM
Anonymous said...: Bagoh, I grew up in Milwaukee, I worked in inner city hospitals and nursing homes for more than 30 years. I know the workings and dynamics of the inner city of a large city, such as Milwaukee.; 11/3/12, 11:51 PM
Mark said...: Inga, would you put his family up in your home until Icepick found a job?

Or are you simply offering him good advice while he and his stew in some homeless shelter?

Be specific. Because really, I don't think calling bullshit is out of order. Oh, and Benghazi.; 11/3/12, 11:51 PM
Cosmic Conservative said...: most liberal truth is inadvertent. Every time Obama tells the truth, it was a mistake.; 11/3/12, 11:51 PM
Nathan Alexander said...: Inga,
I didn't see Icepick complain about anything.

I saw him explain why he couldn't move when you thought him moving away from those Obama supporters is a better way of dealing with the problem then actually facing up to violence and threats of violence by Obama supporters.; 11/3/12, 11:51 PM
Icepick said...: We always here about these tradesmen getting work in manufacturing. We lost about 6,000,000 jobs in the first decade of this century. Are we going to make that up? Am I supposed to believe that the 6,000,000 who already have experience aren't going to get to the front of the line - especially in union states?

Right.

Us LTUEs always here about these things that are going gang-busters. It's always someplace far away, it's always someplace with miserable weather (who's up for a winter in the Dakotas?), and it's always something we hear about third-hand.

I don't believe for a second that job training in the upper mid-west will be any more useful than job training in Florida. And I really have to laugh when Bagoh talks about training people for that great economy in California on the one hand, and turns around immediately and talks about how fucking terrible everything is out there. (I'll buy the terrible, as my in-laws are out there and I get to hear wonderful things about the state all the time.)

Which is it Bagoh, is it a land of milk and honey for all the master tradesmen, or the shit hole of the west?

There's so much bullshit here, there and everywhere about jobs.

Obama has been a total disaster. Bush was a disaster before him, but at least seemed to want to do the job. Romney's likely to be more of the same, but at least I won't be called racist for opposing whatever bullshit he ends up proposing.

People on the right want me to bootstrap. The only problem is no one has any boots anymore. The idiots on the left want me to rejoice at Glorious Leader and sink into complete dependency. The people in the middle want to mix both sides together to get a wonderful mix of two shitty tastes that taste like shit together.

What the FUCK has happened to this country?; 11/3/12, 11:52 PM
Cosmic Conservative said...: Icepick. Inga has happened to this country.; 11/3/12, 11:53 PM
Icepick said...: I know two people that have been told in the last two weeks that they're being laid off from companies they worked at for 20 or so years. I know lots of unemployed people looking for work. I don't know anyone that's gotten a paying job recently.

THAT'S the economic recovery in a nutshell.; 11/3/12, 11:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Petunia,
Are YOU offering Icepick a hand up? No? Then STFU.; 11/3/12, 11:53 PM
Anonymous said...: You know why you will lose this election conservatives?

Just reread this thread on Wednesday.; 11/3/12, 11:55 PM
Cosmic Conservative said...: I have two kids. One graduated college two years ago. One graduated high school last year.

Both have part time jobs in the retail sector. Neither has been able to get a full time job and move out. Both have spent thousands of hours applying and interviewing for jobs.

There just aren't enough jobs, and too many decent hiring managers want to hire people who have other mouths to feed. I can't blame them.

But it means my kids are not getting them. They are part of the 30% youth unemployment Obama has fathered. And somehow still the youth have been so fully indoctrinated that they still support the empty chair, President Ladyparts. (Not my kids though, their eyes are open now.)

Again, I weep for this country.; 11/3/12, 11:58 PM
Cosmic Conservative said...: Careful Inga, don't get cocky. Maybe it will you be who is reading this thread to learn why YOU lost.; 11/3/12, 11:58 PM
Nathan Alexander said...: Inga,
So Romney will lose because of liberal's empty promises?
Or because Obama supporters threatened to riot?

Interesting that you think those are great reasons for dems to win.; 11/3/12, 11:59 PM
Icepick said...: When you are offered help, you are too proud to accept.

Too proud to accept? Even assuming you are sincere in your offer, you are asking me to leave a house I own and you are asking my wife to leave a job she has, and you are asking us both to leave the social network we have, and the town we know, to move someplace where we don't have someplace to live, or a job for either of us, or anyone we know, or anything we know, for a town where we don't even have the right clothing, all this so someone that we don't know can tell us which government agency to go to for training so that maybe someday, if we're lucky, one of us might get a job.

This doesn't sound dodgy to you? Frankly I'm going to take my chances with the gang-bangers. At least I know I'm not going to freeze to death or starve to death in the meantime.

BUT you are not too proud to complain about your circumstances.

That's right, I should just shut up and vote Democratic, even though they haven't done anything for me (which is a myopic irrelevancy) or for the country in general (which IS a relevant issue for an election).

Yeah, your offer of having someone else that doesn't know me or give a shit about me fill out some paperwork on my behalf is terribly convincing.; 11/4/12, 12:02 AM
Icepick said...: You know why you will lose this election conservatives?

Just reread this thread on Wednesday.

What I can't get, looking at this from my perspective, and knowing all the people who have it even worse than I do, is why you want more of this?

Exactly why is it that you want people out of work and dependent and those that are working losing more ground every month as real wages fall and everything gets more expensive?

Food stamp usage has soared DURING THE RECOVERY. Median wages have continued to fall DURING THE RECOVERY. And on, and on, and on, ad nauseum, ad infinitum. I can't figure out why blacks want to vote for Obama. Looking around the neighborhood I see so many abandoned houses. The joblessness is amazing.

Why do you want four more years of this kind of desolation? What kind of monster are you that you think these are the golden fucking years and that Obama shouldn't even be questioned about the job he's doing?; 11/4/12, 12:07 AM
Icepick said...: I don't think Romney is going to be a great President. I don't even think he's going to be any good. But goddamn, how does one look at what's going on now and not conclude that everyone in power should be fired? Democratic President? He should resign in shame and disgrace. The same for every Senator and every Congressman. Ryan should have the decency to retire from public life, not run for a promotion. He has failed. They've all failed. They've all broken their trust with the public.

But I'm supposed to either vote for Obama, or vote to support Boehner and McConnell. A pox on all of them. At least Romney hasn't been in office for this disaster. And that, and the need to fire Obama, are the only two reasons I voted for the bastard. But all the rest of them should count themselves lucky to not be put up against walls and shot. Why are any of these people running for re-election?; 11/4/12, 12:13 AM
Geraldus Maximus said...: Icepick, I read your contemporaneous account of the break in when it happened. I certainly believe it. I think Romney is going to win big and it is going to be called early. So, your neighborhood is going to hear about it come dark time. I would recommend finding somewhere in another neighborhood to stay if you can. The house might disappear (if you have insurance this might be a God send) but your family would be safe.

I was an usher in a movie theater when "Do the Right Thing" came out. There was literally a riot during one showing. A crowd of very pissed off black people came boiling out of the theater and it got dicy. I got punched in the face twice by a woman (you know, the gentler sex.) I believe what you are saying is a real danger. The question is will there be an agitator, you know some kind of community organizer, there to rile people up. I don't know how it is going to go down and I hope calmer heads prevail. But, there are f'ing riots when a favored sports team WINS, for heavens sake!!

There's lots and lots of good black people but I have black friends who wouldn't even go into Icepick's neighborhood much less live there. Also, I second the nomination of getting the hell out in general. I don't know how, but get out. Can you sell the house? Even 10K is enough for a fresh start. North Dakota is hiring in the oil fields. Or, do you have friends/family in another part of the country? Good luck and God bless.; 11/4/12, 12:21 AM
Icepick said...: As for re-training for a trade....

I knew a guy. I met him when I was retraining. (I hesitate to mention what I trained for because it just sounds so stupid now. Who's hiring IT guys now?) He had been in real estate. Ouch. That job went down the tubes in 2007. So he went to truck driving school! We always need truck drivers, right? He graduated and got a job driving trucks in Denver. Then, in the middle of 2008, his company started laying people off. Last on, first off, and out the door he went.

He moved back to Florida, because at least here he knew people. He went into IT training on the GI Bill. After we did our first round of stuff and had all our certifications and whatnot, he couldn't find a job either. He went back to school. I lost track of him about 18 months back. Three careers down the toilet in three years.

THAT'S the economy.

As Cosmic Conservative said above, as I have been saying for years, there just aren't enough jobs. There isn't enough commerce now.

Romney's at least got two good ideas*: reform the tax code and do everything possible to bring down energy costs. He's going to lose completely to Congress on tax reform - they love the current system no matter how bad a drag it is, because that's why they get all that lobbyist money. And the energy proposals will fail to the federal environmental bureaucracy and NIMBYism.

But he's going to fail too, and in four years it will be time to fire him, too. Not going to help me. Not going to help my mother-in-law. Not going to help all the rest of us. The whole thing is fucked up beyond salvation.

* The basic ideas are right, the execution is another thing entirely. I seriously doubt his tax proposal outlines in particular.; 11/4/12, 12:24 AM
bagoh20 said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 11/4/12, 12:25 AM
Geraldus Maximus said...: Just caught up with the Dakota's comments. :-) You talked about that while I was reading other pages and just read the first hundred commments for this one. Sorry, Bud. Anyway, still, good luck and God bless.; 11/4/12, 12:30 AM
leslyn said...: https://www.usajobs.gov/JobSearch/Search/GetResults?Keyword=IT&Location=&search.x=43&search.y=18&search=Search%21; 11/4/12, 12:31 AM
bagoh20 said...: Icepick, I never said the economy in California is great - it sucks. My company is doing fantastic, but most of my customers are in the midwest.

As to job training: we make a point of hiring people with absolutely no skills or education, fresh out of high school or even drop outs, and then we train them to do the jobs we need like welding, machining, assembly, cnc machine operation, computer drafting, etc. We do this because it's a personal goal of mine to train and employ as many of these people as I can. It's also our business plan, since it reduces payroll costs while at the same time creating great loyalty and motivation in our workforce. I have people who have left for "better" jobs who later quit those jobs and take a pay cut just to come back to work for us. I have only one person in my entire company with a college degree. All my people from the bottom to the top were trained and brought up from the factory floor. I myself started out grinding metal brackets during the day and designing them at night, and I can do every job in my company. We are as much a training company as a manufacturing one. Extensive job training is a necessity now to succeed as a manufacturer.; 11/4/12, 12:33 AM
Icepick said...: I was an usher in a movie theater when "Do the Right Thing" came out. There was literally a riot during one showing.

I don't remember those. I remember violence around "Boys in the Hood", though. And those were some dumb-assed riots. Of all the films to riot at, that was not one of them. (I really liked that movie.) For all the media talk about the violence in that movie it just wasn't that violent. (One extremely graphic killing at the end excepted.) Pick 10 random minutes of any Robocop movie and you'll have WAY more violence, and far less story.

But the thing is, Geraldus, I'm not leaving until I have to. Hopefully it's a big nothing-burger. If it looks on Tuesday afternoon like there's going to be a problem, I'll send the missus and our daughter elsewhere. (My wife just doesn't want to consider this possibility.) I'm not leaving until the angry mob shows up. Goddamn it, someone has to make a stand. And no, I do not own any firearms. If it comes to it I'll take my chances with a bat and a machete. Decent people need to take a stand if there's to be any hope at all.

...

Another story from the hood. A few weeks back a couple of banger-wannabes tried to hold up a Chinese restaurant up near Pine Hills Road and Silver Star Road. They busted in, demanded cash from the register. The woman working behind the counter didn't understand them, and when she spoke they didn't understand HER. So one of them shot her in the head and they ran off.

That's this place NOW. When I grew up here things were different. If there's any hope of things getting better (and as hard as it is to believe reading these RECENT stories, things are much improved from 2008), more of us are going to have to stand our ground. And I don't mean anything about firearms laws either, though that may play a role. I don't really have anywhere to run, anyway. I may as well make my stand HERE.; 11/4/12, 12:38 AM
bagoh20 said...: Slight correction: Not all our people start on the factory floor, Some office people start in the office, but we always promote from within, we never hire someone to be a current employee's boss unless we absolutely can't train someone to move up.; 11/4/12, 12:39 AM
Shanna said...: Inga, your posts tonight are insane as well as nasty. You expect someone whom you've mocked repeatedly to move over 1,000 miles, and his wife to quit her job, because you claim you will help them?

And then repeatedly talk about how proud you are. Icepick is telling you his problem, which is a lot of people’s problem: that being that jobs are scarce. Which is obvious from the jobs numbers, if you bothered to look at them.

Are YOU offering Icepick a hand up? No? Then STFU.

Yes, because faux sincere offers on the internet are so helpful. Do you run a company and can offer Ice an actual job, as opposed to a vague offer of unspecified help getting into a training program?

If I offer Icepick to help him look through the classifieds in Arkansas if he 1. Sells his house for basically nothing, if he can even sell it in this economy in FL which has taken one of the worst hits in real estate and 2. Has his wife quit her actual job which brings in actual money for the possibility of some help from a random lady on the internet and 3. Moves (which costs a great deal of money generally) away from whatever friends and family he has in FL. This is the ‘help’ you’ve offered him and you sneer at him for not taking it! Instead, maybe listen to his complaint and learn something about someone else.; 11/4/12, 12:44 AM
bagoh20 said...: " I know the workings and dynamics of the inner city..."

Yea, but you still never been kicked in the nuts, and you won't understand human suffering until you have.; 11/4/12, 12:45 AM
Geraldus Maximus said...: I love ya Icepick. I do. But seriously, if it is looking like it is about to go pear shaped, what the hell do you get from "making a stand?" Meanwhile, what would your kids gain from keeping their Dad? Do what you are gonna do. You are a grown up. But I would recommend some prayer and reconsidering. Your situation is enough to make anyone stressed, to say the least. But, your actions are not gonna change that hood. Your only responsibility is to your wife and kid(s). You aren't putting your life on the line to save another human life. You aren't jumping into a raging river to save a kid. If it goes sideways you are standing up to a wildfire shouting, "You shall not pass!" All that gets you is burnt. Chances are this will all come to nothing and we are both being silly at 1am. So, I'm off to bed and you are in my prayers. Good luck and God bless.; 11/4/12, 12:49 AM
Shanna said...: https://www.usajobs.gov/JobSearch/Search/GetResults?Keyword=IT&Location=&search.x=43&search.y=18&search=Search%21

Leslyn, I know a girl. Her job got eliminated (federal gov) and she's looking for a new one. She used to do a particular IT job and started applying for jobs she knew she was qualified, one of which she was doing before she got the job that was eliminated. She was never passed on because she wasn't a Vet. So unless Icepick has Vet preference, he may have trouble with those. (she did end up getting a job, but they had to use special flexibility related to her eliminated job to get her in to a position that had never been advertised. To get her back to the job she was doing a year ago! With the same boss who wanted to hire her!); 11/4/12, 12:52 AM
Anonymous said...: Shanna, you can STFU also. You don't know what or how I could help him out. Complain, complain, complain. That is pathetic, especially when there ARE solutions.

My parents were refugees fro Eastern Europe. They left their farms and country of origin because staying was certain death. They lived in Displaced Persons camps in Austria for 10 years while waiting for a Visa to America. We came on the proverbial boat, owing $500 to the Lutheran World Federation. My father went back to school barely speaking English. My mother worked as a housemaid. They soon paid off their debts. They left EVERYTHING behind for a better life.; 11/4/12, 12:54 AM
bagoh20 said...: I was looking at Leslyn's link of job openings. All the ones I saw were for the government, but what was surprising is that many are pretty high paying, unless in Europe. An Information Tech. Spec. in the U.S. pays $89 - $136K, but the same job title in Germany is $23 - $30k? Why would that be?; 11/4/12, 12:54 AM
Shanna said...: If Icepick were interested in working for the feds, most people take a crappy job to get in...that is if you can get a crappy job right now with no Vet's preference and LTUE. I know people that are getting 200+ applicants for one job.

That is the economy we live in. I can't imagine any universe in which that favors the incumbent.; 11/4/12, 12:54 AM
Anonymous said...: Bagoh, really? I've never been kicked in the nuts? I lost my husband at a young age and raised my four children on my own. You think only you have been in dire straights?; 11/4/12, 12:58 AM
Browndog said...: Ever wonder why you guys get sucked in to "Inga"...

Master manipulator-

Calls you by name, beckons you to suck her poison tit, then cuts your balls off-

..Spend the rest of the threat pleading with her as to why-

because you deserve it

Smarten up, fellas.; 11/4/12, 12:59 AM
Icepick said...: seriously, if it is looking like it is about to go pear shaped, what the hell do you get from "making a stand?" Meanwhile, what would your kids gain from keeping their Dad?

And what if all they see is me always slinking away?

I don't know. The situation is a mess. Probably nothing comes from the election. But still, and goddamn, I'm tired of running. I'm tired of being pushed around. And I'm sick of seeing the jackals win all the time, usually without anyone even bothering to put up a fight against them. We've stopped defending our civilization, and it's no longer an orderly retreat, it's a rout. It's time some of us miserable beggars turned and fought again.; 11/4/12, 12:59 AM
Icepick said...: They lived in Displaced Persons camps in Austria for 10 years while waiting for a Visa to America.

What, they stayed in the miserable camp? For TEN YEARS? They didn't just move someplace better right at the drop of a hat? What the fuck was wrong with them that they didn't just immediately change their circumstances?; 11/4/12, 1:01 AM
Shanna said...: Whatever, Inga. I'm all for being positive (although STFU isn't terribly positive, is it?) but sometimes the economy just sucks. Sometimes it needs to change before things will get better on an individual level.

8644 and good night!; 11/4/12, 1:03 AM
wyo sis said...: We already knew the ugly side of leslyn, but I'm surprised about Inga.
Liberals only seem to be proud when they're being mean spirited.
I liked you Inga in spite of your tendency to start flame wars, but you're really revealing yourself lately.
UGLY. For a liberal you're "strangely" compassionate challenged.

Icepick is angry and I don't blame him. People who've been hurt far less than he has are angry.

I believe this country will be blessed according to it's decency. Obama has run a strikingly indecent campaign and administration. This nation ("Me" as Obama says it) hasn't fulfilled it's promise, so now this nation (all of us) will take it back.; 11/4/12, 1:05 AM
Anonymous said...: UNLIKE America Icepick, Europe after WW2 was destroyed. If you cannot see the possibilities that still exist in ths wonderful country than you don't deserve her.

Wallow in your circumstances, I don't pity you.; 11/4/12, 1:06 AM
Icepick said...: I know people that are getting 200+ applicants for one job.

Wow, that's low. They must have good screening software. Most people get 500 applicants for any kind of professional or semi-professional work these days. And that isn't an exaggeration, either.

As for working for the Feds: I gave up on that years ago. It was impossible to break through without the military vet thing on the resume, and I'm too old and beat up to enlist.; 11/4/12, 1:06 AM
wyo sis said...: Inga doesn't pity Icepick.
Did he ask to be pitied?
He's asking for the government to get out of the way and let people create jobs.; 11/4/12, 1:11 AM
wyo sis said...: But, you know, I pity Inga.; 11/4/12, 1:12 AM
bagoh20 said...: "Bagoh, really? I've never been kicked in the nuts?"

Have you ever written your name in the snow?; 11/4/12, 1:13 AM
Icepick said...: You're right, Browndog, you're right.

I'm just pissed off because of, on top of everything else, I can't get a freakin' wingnut off one of my toilets. Spent hours on the damned thing today, trying this, trying that. I can't believe someone actually used a WINGNUT on that particular bolt. It sounds like a great idea, if someone were to go in and loosen it and re-tighten it once every six months or so so that it didn't get frozen. GRRR.

But now I need to change the seals on the bolts that hold the tank to the bowl. And sure enough, the person that put it in (probably my brother or brother-in-law) used friggin' wingnuts.

So now I'm down to using a hacksaw. But around the time the hardware stores were closing my blade went dull. So another day of that miserable work awaits me tomorrow.

Thus I stupidly let my frustrations get the best of me, and the next thing you know I'm at it with Mary/Inga/Whatever-she-goes-by-now.

...

Seriously, who puts wingnuts on hard-to-reach bolts that are likely to freeze before anyone needs to loosen them?; 11/4/12, 1:14 AM
bagoh20 said...: There is always a wingnut on my toilet too.; 11/4/12, 1:18 AM
Browndog said...: You're going to be fine, Icepick. Just fine.

Work through it...one step at a time.

...and I don't mean just the toilet.

Adios-; 11/4/12, 1:19 AM
Icepick said...: Icepick is angry and I don't blame him. People who've been hurt far less than he has are angry.

Ya know, I've gotten into this someplace else I comment. The thing that pisses me off the most isn't the insults to me, but that the same things get said about everyone that's unemployed. The most common "observations" are

(1) You have a bad attitude!
(2) You're probably lazy.
(3) You must be incompetent.
(4) You like being on the dole.
(5) You probably steal from your employer.

All that pisses me off a little when directed at me. But what really ticks me off is that I volunteer with a group that tries to help unemployed professionals. They're saying that about ALL the people I know through that organization, as well as all the people I know personally that are in these straights. Did 15 million of us suddenly go bad in 2008? Really?

THAT pisses me off the most. The thing that pisses me off almost as much is any crap telling me that this economy is anything other than a disaster.; 11/4/12, 1:20 AM
Anonymous said...: I think the election is 51-49 close. I am just not sure why anyone would vote for Obama? I would think almost anyone would be a better choice. I ask a few left friends. And one wants to vote for him because of a pre existing health condition, and one wants to vote for him because he stopped the wars. But she is not sure any more and might not vote. It just seems very tepid and weak to vote for Obama. Why would someone do it?; 11/4/12, 1:22 AM
a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...: Icepick, you appear to have the time. Look up the legislative history, political also insofar as possible, of the recent JOBS Act. It is considered Obama's JOBS Act. As part of this act a company which would come to market with t a value of less than $1 billion can submit the required filings to the SEC. These are now, with the changes of this bill, not publicity disclosed until approval, typically a few months later, weeks before the issue comes to market. Prior to this change in regulations, the submission to the SEC was, when received, a matter of public record. This revealed trade secrets to potential rivals and if the issue did not come to market which could be for reasons extraneous to the company in the market it was a black mark against them. This does encourage the funding of small companies; so it appears the Democratic establishment is concerned about the JOBS problem. Maybe Ann will let you get back to us on it.; 11/4/12, 1:23 AM
SukieTawdry said...: I'm not even telling him how to live, I'm offering suggestions on alleviating his circumstances, but it's evident he prefers his ideology over real solutions. Sad.

And the "real solution" in this case is to pack up, abandon a house and a job in the hand and move to a distant state on the strength of some sanctimonious little twit of a broad on a blog that's not even her's promising to "help." Wow, I don't see how anyone could pass on that.

Yes, sad. Truly sad.; 11/4/12, 1:24 AM
Dr Weevil said...: Poor Inga can't seem to figure out that there is not only a big difference between where her parents were coming from way back when and where Icepick is coming from right now (duh!), there's also a huge difference between where they were headed. Her parents must have arrived when Truman or Eisenhower was president, millions of good full-time jobs were being added to the economy every year, and there was massive opportunity for upward mobility for anyone willing to work hard. Right now it's a lot more like the Hoover or early FDR years - a full-fledged Depression, even if most people prefer to pretend that it's already over, and that it was never more than a recession to start with.; 11/4/12, 1:24 AM
Cosmic Conservative said...: jdniner, I'd crawl across broken glass to vote for Daffy Duck if he was running against Obama.

I'd gladly pull the lever for Bill Clinton.

I will say that my initial tendency to vote against Obama has gradually been assuming more and more of a "for Romney" hue. Still mostly against Obama, but Romney really has impressed this last month.; 11/4/12, 1:25 AM
Geraldus Maximus said...: Ok, I lied. This is actually truly computer off last post.

Your kids ain't gonna see that. Forgive me for getting all cross country psychologist on you, but you are in a fucked situation in a fucked neighborhood in a fucked mental state through no fault of your own. Kids aren't gonna see Dad "slinking away." That is your mental projection on them because you have a lowered self perception caused in large part by your circumstances and recent (4 long shitty years) history.

Not to completely agree with Inga, but lots of people leave to a whole other country with NOTHING to seek a new life and they are leaving better places than yours right now. Staying in that area is not "victory." It is at best a holding action.

I can't tell you what to do. I don't truly know you, your situation, your resources, your deficits. Only you and your wife do. Here, though, is what I would tell you to at least consider. Look at what you have. Look at what your goals are. What can you do to get you to your goals in the fastest possible way? I would submit to you that staying in your current situation is probably less than optimal. I say that because you are four years deep.

So, to toss out a hypothetical. If you could go to a cold crappy place like the Dakotas (with lots of people who are hard-working and decent and with schools filled with kids who are trying to learn) and make a good living and dig out of your hole wouldn't that help you reach your goals? Keep in mind that your aren't making a lifetime commitment to going somewhere else. Once you have a stack of cash in the bank your options open up considerably.

BTW, I've lived in 40 houses in many states and multiple countries. I'm now back at home in Kansas and settled down and feel incredibly blessed. I have done what I'm recommending you consider. What do you have? Where do you want to go? What will get you there fastest? If you can successfully come up with and execute a plan your kids will thank you. Even if it is cold.

Whatever you decide to do, say it with me!, Good luck and God bless, buddy.; 11/4/12, 1:26 AM
bagoh20 said...: "one wants to vote for him because he stopped the wars."

What war did he stop?; 11/4/12, 1:26 AM
Icepick said...: Inga, I'll say it one more time:

You're telling me that my family needs to throw away what little security it has left for a throw of the dice. The local gang-bangers aren't any fun, but they're not the Nazis either. So get down off your high horse, Topper.; 11/4/12, 1:28 AM
bagoh20 said...: "Calls you by name, beckons you to suck her poison tit, then cuts your balls off-"

You kids and your new sexual explorations. That's not the way we did it in my day.; 11/4/12, 1:31 AM
mccullough said...: Bagoh,

I think he ended the war on women that he started. At least he's not talking about it in these final days.; 11/4/12, 1:33 AM
Icepick said...: Not to completely agree with Inga, but lots of people leave to a whole other country with NOTHING to seek a new life and they are leaving better places than yours right now. Staying in that area is not "victory." It is at best a holding action.

yeah, but there's no certainty of anything better anywhere else. Here I've got a roof over my head. Here my wife has a job that pays for groceries. As bad as it is, I've got too much to lose to risk it on a gamble.

I know too many that don't even have what I've got. I don't see many of them making the jump either. The ones I know that have made a jump have all moved HERE! What craziness! But they heard it was better here than wherever they were, so now they're in Greater Orlando looking for work.

I'm telling ya, I'm not at the bottom, but I can see it from here.; 11/4/12, 1:35 AM
Icepick said...: What war did he stop?

The one in Libya, duh. And just as soon as he starts the one in northern Mali, he'll end that one too. And he may get involved in the one in Syria so he can end THAT one as well.

Hey, he's a Nobel Peace Prize winner - he knows all about making peace!; 11/4/12, 1:37 AM
Michael K said...: " Inga said...
You know why you will lose this election conservatives?

Just reread this thread on Wednesday."

I'll remember and see you then (metaphorically speaking, of course.); 11/4/12, 1:42 AM
Icepick said...: Geraldus, it's funny. I always thought growing up I'd want to find someplace to live and stay there. I mean a particular house, even, not just a locale. Once I moved out and started moving around, I came to the conclusion that I didn't even want to own a house. Too much commitment, too much hassle. And I discovered that I wasn't really very sentimental at all. Besides, moving to other places had its charms, too.

But ultimately job circumstances happened to drop me back in my home town, by then largely unrecognizable to me. And several years on I now find myself not just owning a house, but owning the one I grew up in.

Unbelievable! All the twists and turns of fate and it's as though I were just some farmer back in the 1900s living out my entire life on the family homestead. Absolutely ridiculous.; 11/4/12, 1:45 AM
Icepick said...: Oh, and the best part of moving is getting rid of accumulated crap! Every move you can get rid of more stuff! People that are very organized might not need this motivation, but I've found it essential. Therlene Boyett, you were right!; 11/4/12, 1:47 AM
clint said...: One thing not to lose sight of:

Inga's whole "offer" of help is a big, giant "SQUIRREL!!" to distract attention from her mocking of Icepick's fears of rioting.; 11/4/12, 1:48 AM
Icepick said...: One last thing before I call it a night: That damned bolt-wingnut combination WILL fall before me, and before any riots. I will beat that thing if I have to dynamite the whole damned house down to get it.

Which would have the added benefit of (a) making a riot against my house unnecessary and (b) scaring the neighborhood so much none of them would even consider fucking with me.; 11/4/12, 1:53 AM
Michael K said...: " Inga said...
UNLIKE America Icepick, Europe after WW2 was destroyed. If you cannot see the possibilities that still exist in ths wonderful country than you don't deserve her.

Wallow in your circumstances, I don't pity you."

One last comment and I'm going to bed. What you don't understand, Inga, is that the US economy was booming in those post war years. It started to stagnate in the Eisenhower years but Kennedy CUT TAXES and the boom took off again. Then came LBJ and the Vietnam war plus his surtax to pay for the war. Stagnation followed. I remember the 1974 collapse well. We then had the Watergate Congress and leftists in power until Reagan cut the Gordian knot with another tax cut and regulation pruning (some of which should be credited to Carter).

Your guys always leave us in an economic crunch. As Lady Thatcher said, eventually socialists run out of other people's money.

Bush may have pushed nation building and Hastert was a corrupt (Illinois) Speaker but Obama will kill off this country if he gets another four years.

He won't.; 11/4/12, 1:53 AM
leslyn said...: wyo sis, to answer your recent hypothetical, "I may sound like a nag," you are. Leave me alone. I had nothing to do with you.; 11/4/12, 1:56 AM
leslyn said...: Fed jobs: Yes, they are hard to break into, but it happens. Icepick, I got interested when I heard you got IT training. The feds are looking for IT now, and there aren't enough vets to fill them. WTH.; 11/4/12, 1:01 AM
wyo sis said...: leslyn
I was under the impression this is an open forum. You have a lot to say about a lot of things that have nothing to do with you. That's the way this works.
Yes, I'm a nag, I acknowledge it, my kids remind me fairly often, but maybe a nag is just what you need.
You seem to pay a lot of attention to what I say if you remember something I said days ago.; 11/4/12, 1:05 AM
leslyn said...: Yeah, it left an impression, it was spot on.

I'll decide what I need. I don't need you to tell me how to run the details of my life. Here's how "this" works. Take your big government and gratuitous insults with you.; 11/4/12, 1:17 AM
leslyn said...: P.S. I haven't been here for months, so I haven't had anything to say about anything.; 11/4/12, 1:20 AM
Illuninati said...: Inga said:
"I'm SO glad I'm a Democrat and proud too, this conversation has proven to me I'm on the correct track. Thanks conservatives!, "

Inga, I agree. The way you have been talking is totally appropriate to a Democrat. Way to go. Too bad. I used to be a Democrat, myself, but the Democrat Party has changed, and left me far behind.

It is a shame that anyone has to live in a neighborhood like Ice Pick describes. Democrats, like Inga, who tell people to move, rather than making life better for everyone, are the cause of the problem.; 11/4/12, 1:44 AM
Palladian said...: P.S. I haven't been here for months, so I haven't had anything to say about anything.

Yeah, we've noticed. It was really nice, while it lasted.; 11/4/12, 1:50 AM
Kirk Parker said...: Sorun,

"After all this time, why don't you just take an average of all of the 'conservatives' on this blog?"

Inga was told there would be no math.; 11/4/12, 2:22 AM
Anonymous said...: The poll tested 500 likely voters on Oct. 30 and 31 with a margin of error of plus or minus 4.38 percentage points.

It's not a strong poll due to sample size. I wouldn't take it as proof that Romney wins MN, but as another indicator that the race is breaking Romney's way.; 11/4/12, 3:40 AM
Rusty said...: bagoh20 said...
Icepick, I never said the economy in California is great - it sucks. My company is doing fantastic, but most of my customers are in the midwest.

As to job training: we make a point of hiring people with absolutely no skills or education, fresh out of high school or even drop outs, and then we train them to do the jobs we need like welding, machining, assembly, cnc machine operation, computer drafting, etc. We do this because it's a personal goal of mine to train and employ as many of these people as I can. It's also our business plan, since it reduces payroll costs while at the same time creating great loyalty and motivation in our workforce. I have people who have left for "better" jobs who later quit those jobs and take a pay cut just to come back to work for us. I have only one person in my entire company with a college degree. All my people from the bottom to the top were trained and brought up from the factory floor. I myself started out grinding metal brackets during the day and designing them at night, and I can do every job in my company. We are as much a training company as a manufacturing one. Extensive job training is a necessity now to succeed as a manufacturer.

I'm probably too old to apply for a job with you guys, huh.; 11/4/12, 5:29 AM
AllenS said...: Sometimes I listen to KQQL out of the Twin Cities, and for the past week, every time that I've listened, and that includes yesterday, it's one political commercial after another for Romney.; 11/4/12, 5:33 AM
Mick said...: Inga said...

"Yup, never prouder to be a liberal and a Democrat than tonight".

Proud to participate in Treason and the destruction of America? Your hero and lover boy is not eligible, since he was born British of a British subject Kenyan father. He is not a natural born Citizen, and he knows it. When there is no legal President then there is no law and no constitution. When he allowed his ambassador in Benghazi to be murdered and sodomized, and did nothing, that should have been a big clue that the Usurper has no allegiance or attachment to America, but those in love with the Usurper are willfully blind, and practically hypnotized.; 11/4/12, 6:30 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Who's fighting and what for?; 11/4/12, 6:54 AM
KCFleming said...: But Inga started it!; 11/4/12, 7:01 AM
Anonymous said...: Who's fighting and what for?

Mick Jagger at Altamont as things started to turn really nasty...; 11/4/12, 7:19 AM
Original Mike said...: "So WI was +13.9 for Obama in 2008 and MN was +10.3. WI is a toss-up. MN should be as well."

Wisconsin is smarter than Minnesota. That's a well established fact.; 11/4/12, 8:10 AM
Automatic_Wing said...: Who's fighting and what for?

Mick Jagger at Altamont as things started to turn really nasty...

Uh oh, did Althouse hire the Hells Angels to provide security in her comments section?; 11/4/12, 8:13 AM
Mr. D said...: I live in Minnesota. I'd be surprised if Romney wins, but I wouldn't be shocked. The Senate race here is a snooze and the Democrat (Amy Klobuchar) is going to win easily, but there are two highly contested constitutional ballot questions -- gay marriage and voter I.D. Those will get the Dems out in Minneapolis and St. Paul, but will also get the conservative vote out in the suburbs and the other part of the state.

I think Obama wins, but it's close. And I think that overall interest will mean that both the ballot questions pass.

We'll have our Scott Walker moments in 2015, by the way.; 11/4/12, 8:22 AM
Darcy said...: If Romney wins, hell yes, I'll want to gloat! I mean, it will mean that I'm right. What's more important than me being right?! That my view is validated?

Yeah. Which is why we're where we are. A people so proud of their own ideology that they'll, for instance, ridicule people in desperate circumstances before offering help. And then mock when their offer isn't considered sincere. Be proud of that!

We are so fucked, no matter who wins.; 11/4/12, 8:30 AM
chickelit said...: Instead of fighting here last night, I spent the evening rewatching Martin Scorcese's No Direction Home. Good stuff.; 11/4/12, 8:39 AM
chickelit said...: Yeah. Which is why we're where we are. A people so proud of their own ideology that they'll, for instance, ridicule people in desperate circumstances before offering help.

If you can, trying employing someone in the neighborhood to do something. We just engaged an early retired former marine/stone mason to build us an outdoor bar. A shrine to EtOH. Work starts tomorrow.; 11/4/12, 8:43 AM
Darcy said...: Good for you, Bruce. It's a great idea.

I can barely support myself right now, but it's a good thing to aspire to.; 11/4/12, 8:47 AM
Darcy said...: @IcePick

Praying for you and your family right now.; 11/4/12, 8:56 AM
Anonymous said...: Yes Darcy, and when I offered help, what was the result?

You didn't read carefully did you?; 11/4/12, 9:02 AM
Anonymous said...: And I don't think that it is the first time you have swooped into a thread without reading carefully and then commenting either.; 11/4/12, 9:09 AM
Darcy said...: I don't care what you think of my comments, Inga.; 11/4/12, 9:15 AM
Anonymous said...: That's good Darcy.; 11/4/12, 9:16 AM
TexasVoter said...: IcePick maybe start a blog? Open up a twitter and facebook, promote your blog in comment threads like this. You have a marketable skill that you can share with the public in some unique creative way. When you have a big following you can place affiliate ads on the sidebar and start earning something. I know people who make a lot of money simply by ranting and raving on you tube and gaining subscribers.; 11/4/12, 10:41 AM
dcm said...: cherry pick much, prof.?; 11/4/12, 10:46 AM
Baron Zemo said...: There some truly vile people who post here.

My prayers are with you and your family Icepick. Please stay safe. I hope that with a new President things will start to turn around. It will be a long hard road but at least there would some hope for a change in direction.; 11/4/12, 12:17 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes, one of them is "Baron Zemo".

Faux concern, prayers, no offers of help.; 11/4/12, 12:32 PM
Baron Zemo said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 11/4/12, 12:49 PM
Baron Zemo said...: Nobody cares what you think Inga.

Please leave me out of your nastiness from now on.

I will no longer address you or your inane and insipid comments.

You are beyond contempt; 11/4/12, 12:59 PM
Michael K said...: On several blogs I monitor I've detected an increase in nastiness from the lefties. I suspect they know something they don't want to talk about.; 11/4/12, 1:18 PM
Anonymous said...: Nobody cares what you think BaronTrooper.

Please leave me out of your nastiness from now on.

I will no longer address you or your inane and insipid comments.

You are beyond contempt

FIFY; 11/4/12, 1:34 PM
Icepick said...: The wingnut-bolt has fallen before me! A mighty struggle ultimately devolved into a rout. AND I didn't need to dynamite the house! (I can save that for the New Year's Celebration.)

And leslyn, I'm surprised to hear the feds are hiring anyone without military experience right now. I'll check into that.; 11/4/12, 3:20 PM
Nathan Alexander said...: Yes Darcy, and when I offered help, what was the result?

When you made an empty, meaningless offer in order to seize a bogus moral high ground, what happened?

Why, nothing happened.

What happened when someone told you he was threatened by Obama supporters for wanting to vote to for Romney?

You told him he was whining and complaining.

Which underscores that your offer of "help" to someone who wasn't asking for help was an empty, cynical grandstand of self-righteousness.

You decided that what he needed was help, when what would actually be helpful is you recognizing the violence of Obama supporters and doing something to stop the violence by your ideological allies.

But you won't do that.

Because you don't care if Obama supporters harm or kill people.

Lacking that most basic of human compassion, is it any wonder your offers to "help" are seen as empty grandstanding?; 11/4/12, 8:56 PM
rcommal said...: Wow. Quite the thread here. I have one helluva lot I could say, but won't say most of it, except for this:

1) I know Icepick, I have been in touch with him for many years now. I have talked with him many times, and at length (including something like two hours just last night. I am very familiar with his situation and have been familiar with it contemporaneously, since BEFORE he lost his very good job 4-1/2 years ago. He's not just talking bullshit, and he has been making efforts to pull himself out of the situation.

2) Why the HELL would anyone be advising him to have his wife quit her job? That's just weird.

3) I noticed repeated references to (to paraphrase) "Why aren't YOU, you conservative you, offering any help?" Apart from the obvious weirdness of nameless internet people offering serious help via comments thread, the fact is that I know for an absolute fact that a conservative here IS offering help. And not the empty gesture, via a comments section, type of help.

I am not at liberty to share any details or names (except to say that I'm not referring to myself), but the reason I know this for a fact is that the particular person in question contacted me to ask if I could put that person in touch with Icepick. Which, after consulting with Icepick, I did.

---

This is not the first time that people who met through this blog, and who are conservatives, have helped out other people here. You just don't know about it because it was dealt with behind the scenes, not publicly, and not via empty gesture. I can think of four separate examples in the past of which I have direct, personal knowledge, three of which because I was involved. This is not to put myself in a good light, but to try and put a lie to the notion that conservatives here never do anything directly but are just all hot-air and theory. That is bullshit. And this is also to say that if you want to help, then help! Don't go all cheap, empty gesture in a comments section, for God's sake.

As I said: Quite the thread here.; 11/5/12, 10:51 AM