October 5, 2012

"When I got on the stage, I met this very spirited fellow who claimed to be Mitt Romney..."

"Whoever it was that was on stage last night doesn't want to be held accountable for what the real Mitt Romney has been saying for the last year.... Here's the truth...."

That's the Obama campaign's attempt at a post-debate zinger. It's as if Obama expected Mitt Romney to show up in the form that Obama supporters have been sculpting in the media! Perhaps that's how Obama's sparring partner in the debate prep portrayed Romney. Oh, how I'd love to get the secret video of Obama practicing debating Romney with John Kerry playing the role of Romney. I think it would explain a lot.

The next day, Obama was all hey, who was that guy, that spirited fellow who claimed to be Mitt Romney? I'd love to see the drafts of that speech so I could know what set of words evolved into "that spirited fellow." Did they send the draft back to the 18th century for tweaking?

When you zing, you've got to expect counter-zing. You can build on that meme. If Obama wants to nudge people to think that wasn't the real Mitt Romney, you can flip that and say it was Obama who seemed unfamiliar? Who was that tired, cranky character we saw next to Romney? It wasn't the Obama we know, the confident, striding, beaming, charismatic master of language and persuasion we've believed in and trusted these last 4 years.

Who was that very unspirited fellow who claimed to be Barack Obama? Whoever it was that was on stage Thursday night doesn't want to be held accountable for what the real Barack Obama has been saying for the 4 years.... Here's the truth....

229 comments:

1 – 200 of 229   Newer›   Newest»
MayBee said...

That is the Obama we know.

It isn't the Obama who shows up at campaign events, but it's definitely the Obama who shows up at press conferences and Health Care Summits.

Paddy O said...

Oh yeah, Romney, the jerk store called...

MayBee said...

Who was that tired, cranky character we saw next to Romney? It wasn't the Obama we know, the confident, striding, beaming, charismatic master of language and persuasion we've believed in and trusted these last 4 years.

Seriously, turning Obama's debate performance around to compliment him (he's usually so wonderful!) seems like a very very bad idea to me.

Matthew Sablan said...

In short, Obama is a coward and unwilling to challenge Romney face-to-face, but prefers to lie about his opponent when they cannot fight back. Something that Paul Ryan and the Supreme Court are intimately familiar with.

Jay Retread said...

Romney said Wednesday night he will not get rid of the pre-existing condition requirement when he repeals Obamacare. Well that means he will not be repealing Obamacare because you can not do one without the other. Conservatives should be howling over that Romney flip flop.

Andy R. said...

I wonder if Ann has an opinion all the lies that Romney told during the debate.

It's easy to seem like you won a debate when you don't have to tell the truth.

Mogget said...

Obama is a coward and an intellectual lightweight. He didn't confront Romney because he doesn't dare to do so in a forum where he can be publicly crushed by Romney's response. He he ducks his head and hides until he can speak unopposed to the country's most gullible demographic.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Well that means he will not be repealing Obamacare because you can not do one without the other."

-- Repeal AND replace is the core of Romney's message. The part of the ACA that covers pre-existing conditions could have passed on its own with near unanimity in Congress. In fact, most of the Good Parts of the law could pass without much debate. Omnibus legislation, though, dragged good things in with bad.

Shouting Thomas said...

Guys like Mitt Romney have been keeping me in a job for the last 25 years. I've started out working in dotcom startups after I graduated from NYC. Since then, I've worked in companies that succeeded from that startup basis... many of them producing websites you read every day.

Big, bad monsters like Romney (and other venture capitalists) put up the money to fund those companies. They are largely responsible for all those great consumer and information websites you visit. Granted, Bain was more oriented toward arbitrage than startups.

How in the world did people convince themselves that the venture capitalists are blood sucking vampires? That was the crazy image Obama hung on Romney!

I've known and worked closely with guys like Romney for the past 25 years. They are always energetic, smart, friendly and humane. They have to be to be committed to taking the risks they take... in people.

Yes, a venture capitalist takes his ideas, and he invests his money in people. Imagine that! Those horrible vampires invest in people!

furious_a said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matthew Sablan said...

"I wonder if Ann has an opinion all the lies that Romney told during the debate."

-- The first half hour, Obama's entire argument, about $5 trillion, was based on a lie that CNN and others debunked before the debate. So, for the first half hour, Romney was telling the truth and Obama was lying. But, no one seems to talk about "all the lies that Obama told during the debate."

Bob Ellison said...

It was a vast pre-Halloween joke: Obama showed up to the debate in a Romney costume, and Romney went in an Obama costume. That explains what happened.

Andy R. said...

Romney said Wednesday night he will not get rid of the pre-existing condition requirement when he repeals Obamacare. Well that means he will not be repealing Obamacare because you can not do one without the other.

Don't worry, a Romney spokesperson clarified after the debate that was one of the untruths that Romney said.

Matthew Sablan said...

"He didn't confront Romney because he doesn't dare to do so in a forum where he can be publicly crushed by Romney's response."

-- A lesson painfully learned when Obama challenged Romney on money for oil industries.

dbp said...

There are a couple of alternatives, either of which could be true.

1. Obama knows that the portrayal his campaign has made of Romney is a strawman, but figures they can keep it propped-up through election day.

2. Obama really believes what his campaign is saying about Romney.

Based on the debate performance, I suspect # 2 is true--especially if he fares the same in the next meeting.

AF said...

Not that it matters but Obama's right on the merits. As Obama said, Mitt has proposed 5 trillion in cuts to income tax rates and refuses to say what he would do to offset them. Mitt's response was that it simply isn't true that he's proposing 5 trillion dollars in cuts. It wasnt clear whether he was referring to his unspecified offsetting tax increases or that he wont cut rates by 5trillion, as he has said he would. Either way his position is untenable.

Shouting Thomas said...

That should read since I graduated from NYU!

furious_a said...

Welcome home, Mitt. We knew you'd come back. After all, it was programmed in you. Oh, and you executed that programming beautifully. -- Terminator 'Salvation'.


What President Obama confronted on Wednesday night was prior-generation T1000 technology.

We expect to have the newer, deadlier and more lifelike T2000 model fully operational for the next debate.

Jay Retread said...

You can not keep the pre existing condition requirement without government playing a large role in making sure the insurance pool is expanded. That's a fact. But conservatives want to be played while Romney runs back to the middle where he was always wanted to be.

Shouting Thomas said...

I wonder if Ann has an opinion all the lies that Romney told during the debate.

It's easy to seem like you won a debate when you don't have to tell the truth.


Andy, the little puke, knows the truth. People who don't agree with him are lying.

Matthew Sablan said...

DBP: #2 is probably the case. Remember, we have White House insiders who leaked that Obama personally dislikes Romney. They picked John Kerry to be Romney in the debate prep, and Obama blew off most of his prep work. They thought that Lehrer would have Obama's back ("Now might be a good time to change the topic,") but Lehrer gave Obama more time and Obama didn't do anything with it. It was a colossal failure from a campaign stand point.

AF said...

Not that it matters but Obama's right on the merits. As Obama said, Mitt has proposed 5 trillion in cuts to income tax rates and refuses to say what he would do to offset them. Mitt's response was that it simply isn't true that he's proposing 5 trillion dollars in cuts. It wasnt clear whether he was referring to his unspecified offsetting tax increases or that he wont cut rates by 5trillion, as he has said he would. Either way his position is untenable.

Tank said...

Leftists shocked that Romney keeps saying what he's been saying for the last 12 months on the campaign trail. Look, I don't love Romney, and won't vote for him, but the left's critcisms are ... BS. He lost. He's a loser. The first time he ever had to go out and defend HIS record. Not as easy as he thought.

Most amusing is the new leftist line that Romney/Ryan are liars. God, the kettle is calling the pot black. (is it ok to say that?).

Matthew Sablan said...

AF said: "As Obama said, Mitt has proposed 5 trillion in cuts to income tax rates and refuses to say what he would do to offset them."

-- Why are you repeating debunked lies? Also, why are you demanding more explanation from Romney than Obama? Such as: Obama, why do you keep repeating a debunked lie?

Jay R. said: "You can not keep the pre existing condition requirement without government playing a large role in making sure the insurance pool is expanded."

-- And some minor regulation is acceptable. ACA is not minor regulation and does more damage. It is using open-heart surgery to fix a hangnail.

Marshal said...

That Obama guy is pretty sharp when someone else writes his lines.

Joe Schmoe said...

Paddy O, I love that one.

Romney to Barry: But you're their all-time bestseller!

Shouting Thomas said...

Talk about lying.

Obama and Biden keep talking about raising taxes, and about how they're going to do wonderful things with those funds.

What have they done so far with taxpayer money?

They've thrown trillions of dollars to their cronies in the green energy scams.

Obama and Biden are lying about what they plan to do with increased government revenues. They don't intend to pay down the deficit or to build infrastructure.

They intend to continue paying off their cronies.

Mark O said...

It was the unvarnished Obama against the unfiltered Romney.

Obama's just not that smart.

Robert Cook said...

Obama is doing the only thing he can do in the wake of his distracted, aloof, and disengaged performance at the first debate, which is to focus after the fact on what his team will define as the failings of Romney's perfomance, namely, the inconsistency between Romney's claims on the campaign trail so far and his claims at the debate.

Every politician who has made a serious gaffe or blunder must attempt a similar post-blunder salvage job.

What Obama really must count on to counter the after effects of this first debate is to come back strong and do better in their next two debates.

Andy R. said...

Why are you repeating debunked lies?

How much do you think the Romney tax cuts would cost in lost revenue?

Bob Ellison said...

AF, tax revenues and tax rates are two different things.

Matthew Sablan, I, too, wondered about that "change the topic" line. Lehrer wrote a great book (sorry; don't know how to link through the blog-kickback scheme) about moderating the debates. In it, he says only he knows what questions he'll ask. Obama wasn't thinking very clearly when he said that. He was a little too Presidential: I'm in charge, Jim, and I'll humor you for just a bit longer, but do what I say.

Sloanasaurus said...

I think Obama has to take this line of attack. Obama's whole strategy has been to make Romney not be an acceptable alternative. That is why Obama has been attacking Romney's character, etc.. On Wednesday night, Romney wasn't just acceptable, he was preferrable.

The problem for Obama, is what if Romney performs at the same level in the next two debates. Then the Obama meme will collapse entirely.

Andy R. said...

Also, everyone realizes that the Romney campaign is on record admitting to lying in the debate, right?

furious_a said...

Either way [Romney's] position is untenable.

Yes, yes, that's why CNN's Erin Burnett was smiling at Stephanie Cutter's incoherent rebuttal to CNN's fact-check of the Obama campaign's $5T claim. This clip cuts off before Ms. Cutter is reduced to shouting over Ms. Burnett "PROVE IT! PROVE IT!!".

Matthew Sablan said...

"How much do you think the Romney tax cuts would cost in lost revenue?"

-- Logic foul. Money not brought in is not revenue. Simply because I could sell my kidney for X doesn't mean by not selling my kidney, I have "lost" that revenue.

Please try again without an embedded assumption that is fallacious.

AllenS said...

It wasn't the Obama we know, the confident, striding, beaming, charismatic master of language and persuasion we've believed in and trusted these last 4 years.

Tags: lameness, head in the sand

Andy R. said...

Does that mean you agree that the Romney tax cuts would cost a 5 trillion change in revenue?

Are you just arguing semantics?

MadisonMan said...

Obama had to say something about the debate yesterday. He had to. I can't think of much else he could have come up with.

Now, he should ignore the debate performance. Lord knows his supporters and the Media will, until the next debate, when he's suddenly so much better -- as if he could be worse!

Bryan C said...

"I wonder if Ann has an opinion all the lies that Romney told during the debate."

Anyway, I wonder if Obama has an opinion on any of the facts that Romney shared during the debate? Oh, wait. He didn't.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Does that mean you agree that the Romney tax cuts would cost a 5 trillion change in revenue?

Are you just arguing semantics?"

-- Words mean things. By Obama driving thousands (if not millions) out of the work force, he has lost significantly more revenue than $5 trillion. But you don't word it that way, right?

furious_a said...

AndyR: Also, everyone realizes that the Romney campaign is on record admitting to lying in the debate, right?

...let me fix that for you...

Also, everyone realizes that the Obama Campaign has tried #FELONFAIL, #TAXRETURNSFAIL and #BAINFAIL, so #LIARFAIL is all they got, right?

There you go.

Shouting Thomas said...

As I said, a white hetero man, the despised bottom feeder on the quota ladder, can instantly elevate himself to beloved recipient of the quota system by "publicly outing" himself as gay.

If Obama is re-elected, there will be more gravy for fat white spoiled brats like Andy who know how to game the system.

He's found a scam that places a halo over his head for his incredible "courage."

Yes, it takes incredible courage to be the favored spoiled brat of the governmental, educational and foundation systems.

Robert Cook said...

"Obama and Biden keep talking about raising taxes, and about how they're going to do wonderful things with those funds.

"What have they done so far with taxpayer money?

"They've thrown trillions of dollars to their cronies in the green energy scams."


No, they've used our money to reimburse their bosses on Wall Street and in the banking institutions for their losses incurred in the commission of fraud against their customers.

Shouting Thomas said...

No, they've used our money to reimburse their bosses on Wall Street and in the banking institutions for their losses incurred in the commission of fraud against their customers.

That, too.

But, they also paid off their cronies with the green energy scams.

Thanks, Cookie, for once you've helped me to pump up my argument a bit. We've got to agree on something.

Matthew Sablan said...

For example, by refusing to open American energy for drilling, Obama is costing the country billions (maybe trillions over the 10 year time frame required to get the $5 trillion Obama bandies about) in revenue. But, you don't say it that way, do you?

Patrick said...

Very funny to watch the president have to confront the real Mitt Romney instead off the straw man he and his with friends have comstucted. Strawmen don't talk back!

phx said...

Now, he should ignore the debate performance. Lord knows his supporters and the Media will, until the next debate

That's just dishonest or at least unfair. Immediately follwing the debate there was a very sober analysis and critique of Obama's poor performance from the media and from most of his supporters.

I can see if you want them all to wallow in that from now until election day, or declare defeat now, but that would just be wishful thinking on your part.

Bryan C said...

"Are you just arguing semantics?"

Only if we all agree to define "semantics" as "things Andy would really rather not talk about."

Marshal said...

Andy R. said...
It's easy to seem like you won a debate when you don't have to tell the truth


The leftist excuses for Obama's defeat are developing. I wonder if the leftists understand this consciously.

Matthew Sablan said...

By over paying Solyndras at a ridiculous rate (giving them more money than 5 decades worth of money to oil companies, note), Obama has robbed the economy of billions which, over 10 years, may have compounded to trillions. Obama has lost trillions in revenues -- just from Solyndra type errors and his refusal to support energy. But no one says Obama is burning trillions of revenue the government could have.

Why? Because words mean things. So, if you insist that Romney's plan would cost us $5 trillion in revenue, you need to accept that Obama's plans are even worse -- and that's before we even -touch- his proposed budgets that would have lost so much revenue not even his own party supported it.

Or, perhaps, you just mean: "I don't like Romney. Here's a club. Let's beat a horse with it."

Words. Mean. Things.

Larry J said...

It appears Obama is stupid enough to confuse the strawman Romney he's been demogaging with the real man. When confronted by the real man who was allowed to speak back, Obama wilted.

Why is it that so many people seem unable to see what a fraud Obama has been all long?

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

He thought he'd be debating a stiff, spineless, robotic wonk, and discovered that he was wrong. The only possible solution: It's a changeling! A Pod Person!

Because we all know that Romney can't think faster/maneuver better/talk more fluently than Obama. I mean, Obama's the greatest speaker in modern US history, yes?

Why do I think Hillary has to be enjoying this?

Matthew Sablan said...

"there was a very sober analysis and critique of"

-- It was serious, but I don't think Matthews was sober (in either definition of the word.)

Shouting Thomas said...

Andy, a little advice.

Get a degree that will help you get a job in an HR department.

Put all that gay studies bullshit on your resume.

When you get the job, slyly let all your colleagues know that you're gay, that you went to the theater last night to watch the latest gay activist play and that you go to all the naughty sex clubs.

You'll advance quickly to VP.

Quit fucking around with the low level scam. Seize your advantage in the quota system and make some fucking money.

Bob Ellison said...

Matthew Sablan, furthermore, Obama probably thinks he'd be a better debate moderator than Jim Lehrer.

Aridog said...

Jay Retread said...

You can not keep the pre existing condition requirement without government playing a large role in making sure the insurance pool is expanded. That's a fact

Really? and you know this how?

Oddly, the federal employee plan, FEHB, has always had a no pre existing condition exclusion requirement. Dozens of insurance providers are invited to bid, annually, to be part of the group providing FEHB benefits. The prices vary, but every one includes pre existing conditions.

Somehow they manage the actuarial task of coverage pool expansion to accomplish this, group wise and nationwide...and they do so without adding or creating one single new department or agency to oversee them.

Oddly, in 2004, John Kerry proposed a national health care system modeled on FEHB. It was the only thing Kerry ever suggested that I liked, otherwise I detest the man.

Don't believe that it can't be done, because it already is done.

Robert Cook said...

For what it's worth

Ray Stickler said...

That wasn't the real Romney. He was more like the Hulk. And Obama was Loki...

Cedarford said...

Jay Retread said...
Romney said Wednesday night he will not get rid of the pre-existing condition requirement when he repeals Obamacare. Well that means he will not be repealing Obamacare because you can not do one without the other. Conservatives should be howling over that Romney flip flop.

============
Oh. yeah.
Like pragmatic conservatives want a carved in stone idealogue like the Left has in Obama! (cept his extrajudicial assassinations lefties now think aren't war crimes because....well..Black Messiah does them)

Conservatives actually go around touting how wonderful the pre-Obama health insurance industry was. How happy they were with premiums that rose 15% a year before they went up 20% a year under Obama. How they love people barred from health insurance on pre-existing conditions and paying 40-300% more for prescription drugs than Canadians do.

edutcher said...

There's an old warning in show biz (Shout may be able to back me up here) about believing your own PR.

Zero is somewhere between Luxor and Aswan right about now. That's about the only way he can rationalize what happened. Fact is, the Romster was prepared and Zero took shilol's advice - 90% of life is just showing up.

Of course, he's been doing that all his life.

Andy R. said...

Why are you repeating debunked lies?

How much do you think the Romney tax cuts would cost in lost revenue?


When taxes go down, revenue goes up, genius.

PS I see it took all day yesterday for Central Control to come up with talking points for the trolls.

Marshal said...

Robert Cook said...
No, they've used our money to reimburse their bosses on Wall Street and in the banking institutions for their losses incurred in the commission of fraud against their customers.


And they're taking more to reward their cronies in the insurance and medical industries. So why do you support that Cook?

Your criticisms of Democrats are all in the past, while you support their prospective policies with the same features. It's almost like you only highlight your differences with Democrats only when they're too late to matter. Don't tell me you do this in a futile effort to establish your non-partisanship. It would truly be crushing to realize your schtick is an act.

garage mahal said...

Romney cheated at the debate?

Robert Cook said...

Could Obama and his team be any more stupid?

Marshal said...

Aridog said...
Jay Retread said...

You can not keep the pre existing condition requirement without government playing a large role in making sure the insurance pool is expanded. That's a fact

Really? and you know this how?

Oddly, the federal employee plan, FEHB, has always had a no pre existing condition exclusion requirement. Dozens of insurance providers are invited to bid, annually, to be part of the group providing FEHB benefits. The prices vary, but every one includes pre existing conditions.

Somehow they manage the actuarial task of coverage pool expansion to accomplish this, group wise and nationwide...and they do so without adding or creating one single new department or agency to oversee them.


This is also largely true in the private sector before Obamacare. As usual Retread has no idea what he's talking about.

I Callahan said...

Well that means he will not be repealing Obamacare because you can not do one without the other. Conservatives should be howling over that Romney flip flop.

Wrong as usual, Jay Retread.

Say Congress passes a bill on the day after inauguration saying that pre-existing conditions must not be considered when issuing health insurance. The next day, Congress repeals Obamacare.

Matthew Sablan said...

Look, Obama wasn't suffering from lack of oxygen. Romney did not cheat. If you keep making excuses to protect Obama from the crushing reality, the following debates will go just as poorly.

Matthew Sablan said...

"The next day, Congress repeals Obamacare."

-- They'd probably package the Good Parts of the ACA in the repeal bill.

Cedarford said...

Andy R. said...
I wonder if Ann has an opinion all the lies that Romney told during the debate.

It's easy to seem like you won a debate when you don't have to tell the truth.

==================
That does seem to be the narrative of queer and progressive Jewish fanboys.
Ignore everything Obama has been saying since 2004 is a lie, much of his life is a lie, all his campaign promises in 2008 were lies...

And claim the guy that showed whan an affirmative action fraud Andy's messiah is - only made Obama his witless punk by lying.

But don't worry Andy, off the debate floor, the TelePrompters are turned back on and if there is one thing Obama has done in his life that is truly exceptional - it is the ability to read the stuff Team Axelrods writers create and make it sound compelling when it comes out of his mouth.

Shouting Thomas said...

Oh, God, Cookie, you read the absolutely, wildly hysterical Counterpunch.

No surprise there.

Writ Small said...

John Kerry: Corporations are people who who need special favors. The untaxed 47% of the population are lazy victims and the sort I like to fire. I plan to raise trillions of taxes on the middle class to personally enrich myself and my crony friends as we gleefully ship jobs overseas. On day one I will force my religious beliefs on others. No birth control. No caffeine. No sexy underwear.

Obama: Americans reject your vision of America, Governor.

John Kerry: You're right, good sir. I realize now I'm a misguided, robotic, flip-flopping shell of a man. You. You. You win.

phx said...

Romney cheated at the debate?

Thanks GM. I'm reserving judgement but I want to hear Romney's explanation.

Jay Retread said...

Romney, by saying he will not get rid of the pre-existing condition mandate, has cemented Obamacare into place. Suck on that conservatives!

furious_a said...

When he got on the stage, President Backswing met a straw man that hit back.

"I met this spirited fellow...henh-henh-henh...I'm not going to be able to sit down for a week."

Matthew Sablan said...

Retread: We've offered two ways it could be done (maybe more). Stop being silly.

I Callahan said...

You can not keep the pre existing condition requirement without government playing a large role in making sure the insurance pool is expanded. That's a fact.

You're starting off with a straw man. Who said government wouldn't be playing a large part in making sure the insurance pool is expanded?

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Two things:

(1) When did we start this ridiculous business of talking about budgetary items over ten-year timeframes? We didn't always do this; in fact, I think it's very new. The budget deficit was how much we spent that we hadn't the money actually to pay for in FY whatever. Now we're talking in ten-year terms all the time.

Is it just that if the numbers are huge enough to bewilder the readers/listeners with zeroes, no one will think of them as real any more? Or is it that if you make ten-year projections, you are guaranteed to be out of the Oval Office by the time they can be evaluated?

(2) Ann, aren't we going to get an account of what it looked like at UW/Madison during the grand Presidential rally -- excuse me, totally educational visit?

phx said...

Romney did not cheat.

Matthew I'm not saying Romney cheated, but what did you think of that video?

Bob Ellison said...

garage mahal, I like it! There's a second handkerchief behind the grassy knoll, too-- zoom way in and look closely!

Matthew Sablan said...

If the rule was no writing, then Obama cheated too (it was noted he was writing while Romney talked.) So, the first question is: Was that really a rule?

phx said...

You guys think it's a handkerchief?

Jay Retread said...

Matthew, you can not keep the pre existing condition mandate but repeal the rest of Obamacare. If that was done the insurance system would crash and the Federal government would be forced to take it over.

phx said...

We need to know the rule. Clearly it wasn't "No writing".

Thorley Winston said...

Romney said Wednesday night he will not get rid of the pre-existing condition requirement when he repeals Obamacare. Well that means he will not be repealing Obamacare because you can not do one without the other.

Actually as 2008 Obama voter Megan McArdle pointed out – HIPAA already made it illegal to deny coverage for preexisting conditions so long as you maintained coverage. The only thing that ObamaCare does is make it possible for people to drop their coverage and then wait until they‘re sick to buy insurance.

Matthew Sablan said...

Jay R.: Except... lots of insurance companies already did it. Abort, retry, fail?

MayBee said...

The government isn't even doing a lot to make sure the pool is expanded. The IRS won't punish people for not having insurance.

I'm sorry, I mean the IRS can't enforce the *tax* people will pay if they don't buy insurance as mandated.

I Callahan said...

How much do you think the Romney tax cuts would cost in lost revenue?

Not a dime. The Laffer Curve and supply side economics has proven (over and over again) that when you inject money into the economy, it produces more producers, hence more taxpayers.

And don't bother spewing the leftwing cant about trickle-down economics, because every time marginal taxes are lowered, the government realizes more revenues. Every single time. And I defy anyone here who doesn't believe this to come up with one example.

Conserve Liberty said...

"Immediately follwing the debate there was a very sober analysis and critique of Obama's poor performance from the media and from most of his supporters.

Soberly led by Chris Matthews.

AF said...

All you who are defending Romney, how would you react if a Democrat said he was going to lower the age for Medicate eligibility to 55, and said that he was going to pay for it in full with unspecified cuts to inessential federal programs, not including defense, Social Security, or Medicare, the only concrete example offered being Sesame street? Would you consider it legitimate for his opponent to say that he had proposed a multi-trillion dollar spending increase that would inevitably result in some combination of tax increases for the middle class and cuts to Social Security and the defense budget?

phx said...

All right, I just presume Romney has the integrity and wouldn't cheat. End of story unless proven otherwise.

MayBee said...

Are breastfeeding rooms and free birthcontrol pills essential to the pre-existing conditions clause?

Mike said...

Boy, Obama sure is clever after he gets the teleprompter turned back on! Pathetic.

Matthew Sablan said...

"All you who are defending Romney, how would you react if a Democrat said he was going to lower the age for Medicate eligibility to 55, and said that he was going to pay for it in full with unspecified cuts to inessential federal programs, not including defense, Social Security, or Medicare, the only concrete example offered being Sesame street?"

-- All of you who are attacking Romney, how would you react if INSERT ENTIRELY DISSIMILAR THING HERE THAT HAS NO BEARING ON THE DISCUSSION WE WERE LOSING.

Why not just say: "Althouse, I think we should move on."

phx said...

Who the hell is Chris Matthews? He's some kind of worthless commentator, right?

Marshal said...

Jay Retread said...
Matthew, you can not keep the pre existing condition mandate but repeal the rest of Obamacare. If that was done the insurance system would crash and the Federal government would be forced to take it over.


And yet the pre-existing condition limitations have existed without Obamacare for over a decade. So do we believe our actual experience or Jay Retread's talking points?

Not much of a contest there.

Shouting Thomas said...

I can't understand the frenzy on the left to provide the Fed with more revenue.

The Fed doesn't seem to have any plans to do anything worthwhile or constructive with that revenue.

I'd rather starve the beast.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Who the hell is Chris Matthews? He's some kind of worthless commentator, right?"

-- He's comedy gold. Look up his meltdown. It was priceless.

garage mahal said...

garage mahal, I like it! There's a second handkerchief behind the grassy knoll, too-- zoom way in and look closely!

:-)

Shouting Thomas said...

The Fed hasn't inspired any confidence in me that increased revenue will produce a good result either.

The mortgage/banking scam didn't inspire me.

The green scams didn't do much for me.

What evidence do any of you lefties have that the Fed is going to make good use of increased revenue?

CatherineM said...

The spin from Obama is laughable.

My fave part of debate, was when Obama said you get a tax break for sending jobs overseas. I immediately thought, "what, that can't be true. What politician would do that." And then Romney fired back, that's a new one, I have been in business 25 years and have never heard of that break. Basically OBAMA doesn't know what he's talking about. He just reads lines. MITT knows his stuff.

Obama kept making the same promises he did 4 years ago about the deficit and I thought, Why would I believe you NOW? You have had 4 years and did the opposite.

People believe him because of how well he reads a teleprompter and does his "preacher" routine about "Tax Pol-i-saaaaaay!" and he doesn't know the tax policies.

Shouting Thomas said...

Jobs are "sent" overseas because of lower overhead costs.

Salaries are lower. Environmental and safety regulation costs are lower. Taxes are lower.

That's the entire explanation for why jobs are "sent" overseas.

CatherineM said...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/grid/presidential-debate-denver/

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose!

Rocketeer said...

To a leftist, facts that they don't like are lies.

To a leftist, confronting them with the truth about a lie they've committed to believing makes YOU a liar.

To a leftist, if any complex statement of truth can be truncated, broken into component pieces or taken out of context and be made to LOOK like a lie, it will be, and that act will be called "fact checking."

That's the way you have to operate when you seek power, not truth.

furious_a said...

That "spirited fellow" spent yesterday in swing-state VA keeping his debate momentum rolling, while Pres. Obama scuttled back to safely-red Madison to get his boo-boo kissed.

CatherineM said...

Shouting Thomas - but there isn't a tax credit for it. You may save money and therefore save taxes, but it's not a deduction. The government is not "officially" rewarding that.

Rusty said...

Andy R. said...
Why are you repeating debunked lies?

How much do you think the Romney tax cuts would cost in lost revenue?


With a little luck enough to start laying off government employees.
I look at keeping more of my own money as a plus.
YMMV

I Callahan said...

If that was done the insurance system would crash and the Federal government would be forced to take it over.

Are you really saying that the main reason medical costs are going up is due to pre-existing conditions?

Have you ever heard of high risk pools, where the government and insurers chip in to offset the costs of these folks? Just about every forward-thinking think tank has come up with ideas like these.

I've been in the business (health insurance, hospital finance, physician groups) for 23 years. Your statement comes from someone who read somewhere what he wanted to believe, and decided that it was the truth no matter what.

Jay - you're in a realm where you have little information. Get more educated before you spout off.

Aridog said...

I Callahan said...

Reference: "How much do you think the Romney tax cuts would cost in lost revenue?"

Not a dime. The Laffer Curve and supply side economics has proven (over and over again) that when you inject money into the economy, it produces more producers, hence more taxpayers.

Pssst Psst: Hey, over here (whisper)....lefty progs argued this point as well vis a vis food stamps and EBT cards, right? Try to get them to admit it works for tax cuts...good f'ing luck :-))

Chuck66 said...

When I was in High School, I saw than VP Bush speak at a rally for Tommy Thompson. I remember thinking "this guy is nothing like the dumbass MSM protrays him as".

Sometimes when you see someone live, it is different then seeing someone through media filters.

Jane said...

Easy-peasy Grand Bargain way to lower the tax rates: tax income earned by trading on the stock market the same as anything else (but with the ability to adjust your cost basis to reflect inflation rates since you bought the stock, and to subtract off interest income corresponding to the inflation during the time period the interest was earned). I used to buy the whole "capital gains as double-taxation" argument until we looked at buying property to rent out. Same thing: putting your capital to work. But no tax break there.

Oh, and make the payment of dividends tax deductible for corporations and taxable just as any other income for recipients.

And replace Obamacare with Vouchercare for everone, not just seniors: enough voucher money for everyone to buy at least a basic catastrophic insurance policy. Mandate that any insurance company that receives the vouchers allow a one-time enrollment of people with preexisting conditions. Easy!

furious_a said...

Who the hell is Chris Matthews?

He's the guy on MSNBC with Restless Leg Syndrome. I hear it's clearing up.

Rusty said...

"Cheating at a debate"



Of all the loser excuses.

kimsch said...

My daughter has epilepsy. When she was little and before HIPAA we moved from Vermont to Illinois and we couldn't afford the COBRA insurance in-between jobs. Because of her epilepsy we had a 'pre-existing condition' and she wouldn't be covered for the epilepsy for six months. She'd be covered for everything else, ear infection, broken bone, well-child visits, etc. At the end of the six-month period she'd be covered for the epilepsy too.

Yes, it can cost out of pocket for treatment for a pre-existing condition, but it doesn't mean you'll never be covered for that condition. Just that the insurance company would like a few premiums under its belt before it starts paying out. The insurance company would like you to have a little skin the game too.

MayBee said...

It's a "tax benefit" in that the US government doesn't tax money made outside of the US by non-US workers and non-US subsidiaries.

Obama theoretically wants to make it so any company that does business in the US* has to pay US taxes on any money they make anywhere in the world. Otherwise, he says, they are getting a tax break.

(*or US-owned companies)

BarrySanders20 said...


"It wasn't the Obama we know, the confident, striding, beaming, charismatic master of language and persuasion we've believed in and trusted these last 4 years."

As several here have stated, Obama has never been this way in any situation where 1) he is without TOTUS, or 2) there is no fellating interviewer/media tingler. When cahllenged, which is very infrequently, he is shallow, brittle, and petty. He is a coward.

Belive and trust him at your own risk, but you should know better.

Robert Cook said...

"Jobs are 'sent' overseas because of lower overhead costs.

"Salaries are lower. Environmental and safety regulation costs are lower. Taxes are lower.

"That's the entire explanation for why jobs are 'sent' overseas."


Of course. Who has ever said otherwise? This is why those jobs are never coming back, as it would harm the profit margins of the companies sending jobs overseas.

At least, those jobs will never come back until conditions here change such that we are willing to accept drastically lower wages and benefits, (or no benefits), in order simply to have a job.

In other words, the middle-class society we have come to expect as a norm--although it was largely a post-WWII phenomenon--is gone, never to return.

Robert Cook said...

Marshall said:

"And they're taking more to reward their cronies in the insurance and medical industries. So why do you support that Cook?"

Who says I do?

Sam L. said...

Obama drank the Kool-Aid the MSM was peddling about Mitt.

He didn't attend the intelligence briefings.

Bummer.

MayBee said...

This is why those jobs are never coming back, as it would harm the profit margins of the companies sending jobs overseas.

Another thing that hurts the US is our tax policy when companies repatriate money made overseas back into the US. Steve Jobs tried to talk to Obama about this- we tax it at a high enough rate that it discourages companies from bringing that money back into the US and reinvesting it there.

Baron Zemo said...

We can jump start the economy by lowering energy costs by domestic drilling, fracking and a huge increase in the use of nuclear power.

I propose a nuclear reactor on Sesame Street.

This Christmas you can get your kids a glow in the dark Elmo!

Matthew Sablan said...

"At least, those jobs will never come back until conditions here change such that we are willing to accept drastically lower wages and benefits, (or no benefits), in order simply to have a job."

-- Or when conditions improve over seas, which they are, thanks to having jobs to start pulling themselves out of poverty.

Now, I admit -- it is not the best arrangement over seas. But, for a lot of people, these factories are a chance they may never have had before. It's not perfect, but I try not to let the perfect be the enemy of saving people, however bad the situation they are being saved into is.

... I'm depressing today.

Michael McNeil said...

How much do you think the Romney tax cuts would cost in lost revenue?

No, Romney will not raise taxes on the middle class

MayBee said...

I don't understand why so many on the left have allowed themselves to get all worked up against the Keystone pipeline and fracking.

Baron Zemos right, those would be great jobs.

Dust Bunny Queen said...


At least, those jobs will never come back until conditions here change such that we are willing to accept drastically lower wages and benefits, (or no benefits), in order simply to have a job.

Not necessarily. The onerous rules and heavy UN-necessary regulations, as well as crushing corporate taxes are the main issues that drive businesses over seas AND which drive small business out of business.

Remove those barriers to operating and employers would be able to pay their employees generous wages.

Remove the ridiculous high cost of Obamacare and employers will be able to afford decent medical coverage.

Remove the demands for obscene pension plans and employers can afford reasonable retirement plans like a 401K or Simple IRA.

Employers want to keep and train quality employees and are quite aware that the benefits and wages are what will do that.

HOWEVER....employers and businesses are not charities and cannot be magnanimous and LOSE money at the same time.

Baron Zemo said...

And fracking.

Let's frack the fuck out of our dependence on the sand monkeys.

I Callahan said...

In other words, the middle-class society we have come to expect as a norm--although it was largely a post-WWII phenomenon--is gone, never to return.

I actually agree with this, to some extent. The post-WWII phenomenon was fleeting, and should NEVER have been expected to be the norm.

However, the U.S. can somewhat counteract this - the economy can be segmented so that the menial factory jobs are offshored, and the higher, more technical jobs can be done here. That would require, however, that our education system is completely overhauled, and the work/learn ethic be increased 10 fold. Not likely to happen, unfortunately.

Jay said...

AF said...
As Obama said, Mitt has proposed 5 trillion in cuts to income tax rates and refuses to say what he would do to offset them


Bullshit, you liar.

Romney has proposed no such thing.

Matthew Sablan said...

"However, the U.S. can somewhat counteract this - the economy can be segmented so that the menial factory jobs are offshored, and the higher, more technical jobs can be done here. That would require, however, that our education system is completely overhauled, and the work/learn ethic be increased 10 fold."

-- Without "menial" factory jobs, there isn't enough work for our current population. At least, barring some revolutionary new, easy to enter, "non-menial" field that doesn't have a lot of requirements.

... Let's just expand Congress by a few million seats.

AF said...

- All of you who are attacking Romney, how would you react if INSERT ENTIRELY DISSIMILAR THING HERE THAT HAS NO BEARING ON THE DISCUSSION WE WERE LOSING.

Actually, it's a very close analogy. Mitt's proposed cuts in the tax rates that will cost $5 trillion over 10 years, that's undisputable. He hasn't specified how he will pay for them, that's also undisputable. So how is that different from proposing $5 trillion in spending increases without specifying how you will pay for them?

Marshal said...

Robert Cook said...
Marshall said:

"And they're taking more to reward their cronies in the insurance and medical industries. So why do you support that Cook?"

Who says I do?


So you're taking the position that attacking criticisms of Obamcare isn't actually supporting it, even though you've never criticized it or have done so only to the extent that it doesn't go far enough.

More posing.

phx said...

Obama drank the Kool-Aid the MSM was peddling about Mitt.

He didn't attend the intelligence briefings.

Bummer.


Yeah. Bummer. . . .



You know he's probably going to rally, right?

Geoff Matthews said...

Seems rather immature to retort after the argument is over. Suggests that you're slow on your feet.
Was that racist, to imply that Obama is slow?

Matthew Sablan said...

"Mitt's proposed cuts in the tax rates that will cost $5 trillion over 10 years,"

-- No they won't cost any thing. A) That's not how "costs" work (see the careful deconstruction of "revenue" above). B) It is not what Romney proposed.

Hagar said...

The non-union auto manufacturers actually pay higher wages than the UAW plants. It is the work rules that are the killers, not to metion the pie-in-sky defined pension plans.

Matthew Sablan said...

Actually, AF, simply go back to all my posts taking apart the "revenue" canard and replace with "cost." Words, things -- they mean them. Yawn.

Come back with a question that does not assume a fallacy.

William said...

I watched the debate. I thought Romney won handily. He's very bright and, in the way that Obama knows how to puff soaring rhetoric, Romney knows how to marshal facts in a succinct way and make a convincing power point presentation. That said, I don't think Obama lost the debate in such a way as to lose the election. Obama's arguments were muddled and his grammar and syntax were clumsy, but he didn't look like an unsympathetic human being or a complete idiot. And perhaps that's all it will take to put him over the top.

Matthew Sablan said...

"You know he's probably going to rally, right?"

Rally, regress to the mean. You say potato, I say potato.

... that doesn't work in text, does it? Maybe you type color, I type colour.

Robert Cook said...

"I don't understand why so many on the left have allowed themselves to get all worked up against...fracking."

Maybe because there is evidence that fracking is poisoning our drinking water...supplies of which are scarce enough globally, as it is. (I doubt all those opposing fracking are "on the left." Homeowners who find their faucet water is flammable and poisonous to drink are probably not going to support fracking, no matter what their political perspective may be.)

Christopher in MA said...

How much do you think the Romney tax cuts would cost in lost revenue?

Tax cuts don't "cost" anything, Hat. Unless you can give up that hoary old Democrat talking point, it's impossible to have an honest discussion with you.

furious_a said...

Althouse: Oh, how I'd love to get the secret video of Obama practicing debating Romney with John Kerry playing the role of Romney. I think it would explain a lot.

I think this explains it best.

“I think that I’m a better speechwriter than my speechwriters. I know more about policies on any particular issue than my policy directors. And I’ll tell you right now that I’m gonna think I’m a better political director than my political director.”

I'm guessing you've had first-year students who thought they were more lawyer than you. Imagine being Senator Kerry locked in a room with that self-regarding peacock -- I don't think this was Kerry's fault, at all.

Robert Cook said...

Marshall,

You should not make arguments based on assumptions.

I don't support Obamneycare, and have said so many times here.

We need single payer insurance, and we need to get the for profit insurance companies out of the health care delivery system entirely.

Clyde said...

They used "spirited fellow" because "ass-kicking motherfucker" didn't poll well with their focus groups.

Matthew Sablan said...

"So how is that different from proposing $5 trillion in spending increases without specifying how you will pay for them?"

-- To answer this. If I say: "I'm going to buy something!" I need to know how much it costs. If I decide not to sell blood, I have not lost any money. I still have the exact same amount as before; I've decided simply that I should not spend more.

One is using a finite resource the other is electing not to collect more of a resource. It's... kind of complicated, but simple. If you pick up all the apples that is different from choosing to leave the apples for the forest creatures (and/or evil witches.)

Jay said...

AF said...

Mitt's proposed cuts in the tax rates that will cost $5 trillion over 10 years, that's undisputable. He hasn't specified how he will pay for them, that's also undisputable.


Bullshit, you liar.

CNN fact checked this, it isn't true. Obama campaign spokesperson Stephanie Cutter agreed on tape it is bullshit.

You are a fucking moron.

AJ Lynch said...

In 2009, tax filers, who had earnings in excess of $200,000, had aggregate earnings of $788 Billion which is $7.8 Trillion over ten years.

So the innumerate Obama claims Romney is going to cut taxes on these high earners by $5 Trillion? That would mean they are paying at least 64% in federal taxes now! This shows it is Obama who is the liar or he is just plain dumb.

Jay said...

Robert Cook said...


Maybe because there is evidence that fracking is poisoning our drinking water


There is no evidence of any such thing.

MayBee said...

Mitt's proposed cuts in the tax rates that will cost $5 trillion over 10 years, that's undisputable. He hasn't specified how he will pay for them, that's also undisputable.

But he's saying when he goes into negotiations, the marginal tax rate cuts are offset by changes in deductions, etc, or they don't happen. He wants to simplify the tax code overall.

Hey, it's not as specific as saying millionairesandbillionaires need to pay their fair share, but it's a start.

garage mahal said...

Tax cuts don't "cost" anything,

Don't cost anything except money

Jay said...

AF said...
As Obama said, Mitt has proposed 5 trillion in cuts to income tax rates


You better tell that to CNN and the Obama campaign you silly little propagandist.

Matthew Sablan said...

Maybe he just needs a rich person to suggest the idea so he can call it the X Rule. Cause the Buffet Rule? That's a brilliant, nuanced plan that will surely solve our fiscal woes.

MayBee said...


Maybe because there is evidence that fracking is poisoning our drinking water.


There are anecdotes.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Don't cost anything except money"

-- No. The thing that is costing is spending money. We could spend less; spend more efficiently, etc. There are many solutions. We do not, however, need to even -reach- this discussion, since as Jay helpfully pointed out, even the Obama campaign admits that this is an untrue statement about Romney.

So, let us wash our hands of this and chalk it up to Obama simply being unprepared and desperate.

BarrySanders20 said...

phx,

I think most people still see Obama as the favorite, but it is no longer inevitable. And by "rally," I assume you mean rally from the Obama we saw on Wednesday night. That's like how he argues his jobs numbers -- take the low point and count up from there. So yes, he'll rally from the TOTUSless stupor he was in and be more engaged and smiling to appeal to people who vote based on that.

I still fear we are about to reelect a narcissistic coward who sucks at his job.

Plus, he throws like a girl.

Christopher in MA said...

Tax cuts don't "cost" anything,

Don't cost anything except money.


Says the braniac who thinks we'll never go broke because we can always print more money.

chickelit said...

We need single payer insurance, and we need to get the for profit insurance companies out of the health care delivery system entirely.

Why that blanket dismissal, RC? Do you assume that non-profit = higher efficiency?

Food is universally more important than healthcare. Why not get for-profit companies out of the food growing and processing system entirely? They must be too-efficent as evidence by chronic obesity.

kimsch said...

Robert Cook,

We need to get insurance companies out of the "pre-paid" health that we have now that's called "insurance". When health care feels "free" because it's all covered by being pre-paid people don't shop around or ration themselves. People go to the doctor for any little thing because it's "free".

Say for instance that you can fill your car up at the gas station anytime for "free" because of pre-paid car insurance. People would be filling their cars up constantly, keeping them topped off, driving all the time even just for driving's sake. All because it's "free".

When we have to pay attention to the costs of gas however, we ration ourselves. We plan our driving to be more efficient, to get more done in the same trip instead of going out and back and out and back and out and back...

When I was a kid insurance was really insurance. It covered emergencies and hospitalization. Mom and Dad paid the doctor when we had to go for well-child physicals for school or the odd ear infection or strep throat.

BarrySanders20 said...

"Spirited fellow" is an attempted leftist dog-whistle for weird old rich white guy from the yacht club.

AF said...

To answer this. If I say: "I'm going to buy something!" I need to know how much it costs. If I decide not to sell blood, I have not lost any money. I still have the exact same amount as before; I've decided simply that I should not spend more.

Mitt didn't say he wasn't going to spend more, he said he was going to cut tax rates by 20% without decreasing revenues. We need to know how he's going to offset the cuts.


Matthew Sablan said...

On spirited fellow: He saw all the talk over "bless his heart" and wanted in on the old-timey digs at your opponent.

garage mahal said...

Borrowing billions to pay for tax cuts doesn't cost anything!

Great stuff, guys. Great stuff.

I think conservatives need to give up on numbers for a while and concentrate on something they're better at. Not sure what that is anymore, but clearly this isn't your thing.

Robert Cook said...

"'Maybe because there is evidence that fracking is poisoning our drinking water.'

"There are anecdotes."




Scientific American

AF said...

But he's saying when he goes into negotiations, the marginal tax rate cuts are offset by changes in deductions, etc, or they don't happen.

Okay, the hypothetical Democrat says that expanding Medicare to 55-year-olds is going to be offset by unspecified cuts to inessential programs, or it won't happen.

Now he's above criticism?

Matthew Sablan said...

"Borrowing billions to pay for tax cuts doesn't cost anything!"

-- Today, I met a unicorn.

... What, I thought we were talking about things that aren't happening?

roesch/voltaire said...

Well the spirit seems to be just spin out stuff and hope nobody notices, but then the folks at Bloomberg checked over Romney's claims and found:
His tax plan, however, would upend financial planning for millions of middle-class households, denying them thousands of dollars in annual deductions. Earlier this week, after months of refusing to specify which tax breaks he would curtail, Romney said taxpayers might be able to take a total of no more than $17,000 in deductions each year.
That won't bring in enough revenue to make up for almost $5 trillion the government will lose over 10 years once tax rates are reduced by 20 percent as Romney has proposed, according to economist William Gale of the Brookings Institution in Washington.
"It doesn't come close to paying for the $5 trillion," said Gale, who co-authored a study of Romney's tax plan for the non-partisan Tax Policy Center in Washington.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Okay, the hypothetical Democrat says that expanding Medicare to 55-year-olds is going to be offset by unspecified cuts to inessential programs, or it won't happen.

Now he's above criticism?"

-- No, now you can say things like: Well, we should get those details. Not: He's a filthy liar, so let me make up what he is saying he'll do to make him a filthier liar.

The problem is that you are -lying- about what Romney is suggesting, while pretending people being annoyed that you are lying are being irrational.

Stop lying, act like an adult and be respectful to other's ideas, and they'll do the same for you.

MayBee said...

Who says Romney is above criticism? Criticize away. Just don't make up fake facts and put them in his mouth.

Matthew Sablan said...

So, which is it? Romney has given no details or all his details are bad? Go back, regroup, get your talking points in order, then we can reconvene tomorrow.

Matthew Sablan said...

By the way, here's another problem with shotgun approach to attacking Romney. Maybe what R/V posted is true. Too bad. Jay R., AF and Andy burned my goodwill for the day R/V. You're at a trust deficit; that's what Obama's stupid attacks during the summer did. They've blunted substantive attacks.

Once I found out that the plant DID close in April 2009, that Romney DID NOT give a woman cancer, etc., I find it hard to believe anything that comes out bad about him.

That's why you get your ducks in a row before you strike at a politician.

I Callahan said...

Why that blanket dismissal, RC? Do you assume that non-profit = higher efficiency?

This is the thing about big-government types. Despite the numerous examples of the government screwing up everything it touches (including health care - almost all insurance fee schedules are based on Medicare rates), they still believe that profit is the driver of all evil, and bureaucracy is not.

That is complete fantasyland.

Comanche Voter said...

Let's just say that the "unspirited fellow" named Obama who appeared on stage in Denver couldn't sell sunlamps to Eskimos.

Shouting Thomas said...

Cookie,

U.S. workers are not headed toward third world status.

Japan used to be a low overhead environment. Now, it's one of the most expensive.

Same will happen in the current low overhead countries.

Things level out over time. Different types of jobs and skills are needed in high overhead countries.

A good Java, Javascript, jQuery programmer can name his price in the U.S.

MayBee said...

The Tax Policy Center may be "non-partisan", but it is the joint venture of the Brookings Institute and the Urban Institute.

Yes, removing deductions is frightening to me, as is tax uncertainty.
But then living within our means with the tax revenue and tax code we have now doesn't seem to be an option.

Baron Zemo said...

Fracking is like coal mining. There are some enviornmental issues but nut job snail dart sucking hippie tree huggers like Cookie want to stop the jobs and lower energy costs that would revitalize depressed areas like upstate New York.

They want those people to become arugula farmers.

AF said...

-- No, now you can say things like: Well, we should get those details. Not: He's a filthy liar, so let me make up what he is saying he'll do to make him a filthier liar.

I think you could say more than that. I think you could say that what he's proposing is impossible, and can't be taken seriously. You could say that either he's not going to do what he says he is going to do, or he's going to raise taxes on the middle class to pay for it.

Matthew Sablan said...

"I think you could say more than that. I think you could say that what he's proposing is impossible, and can't be taken seriously."

-- No. Someone who actually is willing to work can get a grand bargain done. See: Bush and Kennedy on education. See: Clinton and Gingrich on welfare reform.

It's doable. Just HARD and both sides want to do it.

Matthew Sablan said...

Obama had a beautiful chance to make small, incremental and popular changes in healthcare. Instead, he tried for a grand bargain. Then forgot to bargain.

Michael K said...

" So, for the first half hour, Romney was telling the truth and Obama was lying. But, no one seems to talk about "all the lies that Obama told during the debate.""

The "lies" argument is the Obama campaign's attempt to cope with the train wreck they had Wednesday night. I see that a couple of local lefties have checked in and gotten the talking points memorized.

Obama's whole campaign has been lies. Wait until next debate with foreign policy ! Obama's pants may catch fire. There are no millions of new jobs, the unemployment rate announced this morning is a lie that will be quietly revised in a couple of weeks.

Romney should, and may eventually, point out that his tax plan is similar to the one Reagan and Tip O'Neill negotiated in 1986 that gave us 15 years of prosperity in the late 80s and 90s. Even Clinton's tax increase in 92 couldn't slow it down.

They lowered rates and closed loopholes, one of which cost me $100,000 that year. Tax shelters went away. Most voters are too young or too dumb to remember that.

MayBee said...

So when do we talk about Obama's ingenious "fair share" detailed plans?

chickelit said...

Robert Cook quoted...
Maybe because there is evidence that fracking is poisoning our drinking water.'

And? A solar panel on every rooftop = arsenic or cadmium on every rooftop.

Also, do you have any clue how dirty and energy intensive it is to get silicon free and pure?

chickelit said...

A carbon-based energy economy is life as we know it. To demand otherwise, or to tax a carbon economy to death is economic suicide.

bgates said...

It's easy to seem like you won a debate when you don't have to tell the truth

Breaking news from 2008, when I first heard about Obama's plan for a net spending cut and Joe Biden celebrated the Franco-American military effort that removed Hezbollah from Lebanon.

Jay Retread said...

I have said several times on this blog going back at least six months that as a liberal I of course want Obama to win, Romney would also have his pluses. We saw that Wednesday night. Romney has no intentions of getting rid of the pre-existing conditions clause, hence he has no clear path to remove Obama/Romneycare.

He will be the most liberal Republican president since Ford. That might be just what the country needs right now.

Baron Zemo said...

We built this country by raping the environment.

We have lost our way.

Baron Zemo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Baron Zemo said...

Shorter Jay Retread:

If you can't beat them,join them.

Shouting Thomas said...

He will be the most liberal Republican president since Ford. That might be just what the country needs right now.

There you go! A realistic assessment of Romney!

He's a RINO.

Jay Retread said...

Well, he is a RINO in a good way!

Jay Retread said...

And yes, if you can't beat the Democrats, run a liberal Republican like the Romney we saw on Wednesday night.

AF said...

It's doable. Just HARD and both sides want to do it.

A deal is doable. A deal that reduces tax rates by 20%, offsets them with revenue increases, and doesn't impact the middle class is not doable. The reason grand bargains are hard is that they require painful choices. A proposal that (1) specifies the benefits, (2) refuses to specify the costs, and (3) insists that the middle class won't bear any of the costs, is not a serious proposal.

Jay said...

It's easy to seem like you won a debate when you don't have to tell the truth

Obama brazenly asserted: "There is a tax break for companies moving jobs overseas"

Which of course is a complete & utter lie.

Shouting Thomas said...

There is a tax break, but it isn't provided by the U.S.

Taxes are lower in the target country.

Sorun said...

There are reports that Kerry was wearing a top hat and using a Thurston Howell III accent during the debate preps. Hence, Obama's surprise at Romney.

MayBee said...

What is "the" preexisting conditions clause?

In Obamacare, you needn't have continuous coverage and the insurance companies are told by the government they can not charge more than X amount to people with preexisting conditions. Basically, people with preexisting conditions cannot be charged more (or perhaps it is just not more than a certain % more) than people without preexisting conditions.

There are many other ways to handle people with preexisting conditions, but Romney has so far proposed people with continuous coverage not be able to be turned away (on the individual market) due to preexisting conditions.



Nathan Alexander said...

Mitt didn't say he wasn't going to spend more, he said he was going to cut tax rates by 20% without decreasing revenues. We need to know how he's going to offset the cuts.

It isn't our fault if you uncritically accept anything Obama says as truth.

But I'll explain it to you. Again, not my fault if you don't understand math or human nature.

Our taxes are set up so that you pay no taxes on the first x amount, and then rate n on the next x amount, and then rate n on the next x amount.

It takes energy/effort/time to work to make money. We could all make lots more money if we worked 3 jobs for 120 hours/week total. That's just 17 hours/day, gives you time to travel to work and sleep 8 hours!

Why don't more people do that?

They decide it isn't worth their time. They prefer to have a life than sacrifice everything in pursuit of more money.

When you work, you earn the money that your employee agrees to pay you.

Let me emphasize that: you earn it.

By what right does the govt get to decide you are making too much and take more of it?

If you work the same amount, and have a choice between keeping more of it, or keeping less of it, which choice would most people choose?

Now, let's say you work your minimum, and there is an opportunity to work some overtime. Are you more likely to work that overtime if you are paid 1/3 of your normal pay, or 1.5 times your normal pay?

So based on all that, if you lower taxes, people see the opportunity that working a little more improves their lives more than if taxes are higher. So the small businessman stays open longer, takes more jobs, etc...the doctor sees more patients...the creator exploits economies of scale to a) make more items, b) sell them at a lower price, and c) still make more money because of lower tax rates.

Aside from that, it takes an amassing of money to create new value.

For instance, there is a foreclosed home in bad shape. Just sitting there, no one using it, so someone's investment in the home is lying fallow. The bank that extended the loan isn't getting their loaned money back, either.

It costs $400k, with a down payment of $80k. I want to buy it. If I have $79k saved up, I still can't afford it.

Nothing happens, and no wealth is created.

But then President Romney cuts taxes. I end up paying $1k less in taxes while doing the same amount of work.

I now have enough. I buy it. The original bank gets its money back and can lend it to a small businessman with a great idea for reducing the cost of making an important part for computers, making computers cheaper, which means more people buy computers, pumping more money into that industry, which increases tax revenue despite a lower rate.

I hire people to fix it up. They buy materials. Home Depot sells more materials and pays more in taxes due to the increased sales, which increases revenue despite a lower tax rate.

The people fixing it up earn more money. One of the contractors is really good and has enough work, but agrees to do the work because the lower taxes makes it worth it, he can keep enough to buy the machinery he needs to retire and make quality guitars, so he takes the extra job and works weekends. Despite the lower taxes, the govt gets more in revenue.

After renovation, I rent out the house, increasing the supply of rental homes and lowering the price, so a family is able to afford moving out of their parent's home.

Despite lower taxes, I'm now paying taxes on the rental income, so the govt ends up with more revenue.

Taxes are a drag on the creation of value. Lowering taxes decreases the drag, which increases the amount of value created, which means more value is created. The increase in value created means more value is taxed at a lower rate, still resulting in higher revenue overall.

10% of $100k is less than 8% of $130k.

chickelit said...

It's like we're in a car heading for a cliff. Dems want to slam on the brakes (taxes) to make sure we head into the abyss; Republicans want to hit the breaks (taxes) so that we accelerate right over the abyss over to the other side.

Robert Cook said...

Shouting Thomas said:

"A good Java, Javascript, jQuery programmer can name his price in the U.S."

Assuming they don't simply hire good programmers overseas to do the jobs remotely at far lower prices, and your assertion stays valid, and as a result, kids go to school to train as programmers, the resulting glut in programmers will drive the price programmers can charge way down.

We are, as a matter of fact, headed toward third world status. The only reason it's not apparently so is that most of what most Americans "own" is bought on credit. We're already cash-poor, relative to the standards of living most of us have grown accustomed to.

MayBee said...

Well, AF, perhaps President Obama will read your words about Romney's deal not being workable and decide to use that as a criticism, rather than the lie that Romney has been saying something else and lied at the debate.

Marshal said...

AF said...
It's doable. Just HARD and both sides want to do it.

A proposal that (1) specifies the benefits, (2) refuses to specify the costs, and (3) insists that the middle class won't bear any of the costs, is not a serious proposal.


Nor is Hope and Change, but somehow all these supposed policy wonks now oozing through the floorboards were missing last cycle. It's quite revealing leftists deem the appropriate standard to be whatever best helps the Democratic candidate at that particular moment. This one seems to think policy advances are possible as long as both sides want it, so our focus on replacing Mr. "We won" should win his resounding support.

Shouting Thomas said...

Cookie,

There are ways that a programmer can insure against a foreign national taking his job.

The key is to find an area where high level English skills, and in-depth knowledge of American institutions is required.

But, you do have to stay on your toes.

AF said...

Well, AF, perhaps President Obama will read your words about Romney's deal not being workable and decide to use that as a criticism, rather than the lie that Romney has been saying something else and lied at the debate.

This is what Obama said at the debate:

"Now, Governor Romney’s proposal that he has been promoting for 18 months calls for a $5 trillion tax cut on top of $2 trillion of additional spending for our military. And he is saying that he is going to pay for it by closing loopholes and deductions. The problem is that he’s been asked a -- over a hundred times how you would close those deductions and loopholes and he hasn’t been able to identify them."

Completely accurate, entirely fair.

MayBee said...


Completely accurate, entirely fair.


No, the $5 Trillion doesn't come from Romney. That comes from Obama's favorite evaluation of Romney's proposals to cut tax rates.

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