October 1, 2012

"This bill bans nonscientific 'therapies' that have driven young people to depression and suicide."

"These practices have no basis in science or medicine, and they will now be relegated to the dustbin of quackery."
The [California] law, which is to take effect on Jan. 1, states that no “mental health provider” shall provide minors with therapy intended to change their sexual orientation, including efforts to “change behaviors or gender expressions, or to eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attractions or feelings toward individuals of the same sex.”

109 comments:

Skyler said...

Maybe they can get the chiropractors again, too.

But unlike chiropractors that break people's necks and commit other quackery not based on any science, these practicioners are doing little more than exercising their first amendment right to speech. I guess we can't have that, can we?

Nomennovum said...

At least one state is addressing its critical problems.

All is well.

mesquito said...

I wonder how many other "therapies" available in California "have no basis in science or medicine."

Shouting Thomas said...

All evidence suggests that homosexuality is the most favored status one can occupy.

The state and the corporate world lavish fawning attention on any individual who declares themselves homosexual, and doesn't even demand proof.

The status of the homosexual is so lofty that a straight, white man, the despised bottom feeder of the quota system, can be instantly elevated to honored beneficiary of the quota system simply by declaring himself to be gay.

karrde said...

How often are minors the focus of such therapy?

How many occurrences of this are known to happen in any given year?

pduggie said...

I wonder if that will get challenged on religious freedom grounds?

Like the diet advice thing, I wonder when pastors will get called out as unlicensed mental health professionals?

"Pastor, I feel down"

"let me assign you a therapy of bible reading and choir singing"

pduggie said...

I wonder if that will get challenged on religious freedom grounds?

Like the diet advice thing, I wonder when pastors will get called out as unlicensed mental health professionals?

"Pastor, I feel down"

"let me assign you a therapy of bible reading and choir singing"

Shouting Thomas said...

What happens when a kid goes to a priest for help?

If the priest responds with the traditional teaching of the Church, will he be in violation of the law?

Michael K said...

California, like US foreign policy leaders, is dealing with its important problems before they blow up in our face. We already have lesbian mothering instruction in second grade.

Jay said...

Actually, being gay has driven young kids to depression and suicide.

I think we should ban being gay.

tim maguire said...

My first reaction: "Wow! Sounds great, i can't believe they're actually addressing this."

My reaction on reading the full blurb: "Oh. Of course."

I'm fine with banning taking money to try and change someone's sexual orientation unless the patient is an adult and is the one paying the money, but obviously this is not a law to rein in quackery, it's a law to attack a particular religious view.

rick said...

@Jay. Couldn't agree more.

Additionally, if being gay was normal, procreation would decline in large numbers.

Count me as the one who is out of touch, I guess.

Shouting Thomas said...

I watched a video last night on Netflix titled "Happy."

It started out pretty well, with a lot of "experts" talking about what makes us happy, then degenerated into a liberal indoctrination session on communal living and the horrors of making money, etc.

One particularly awful scene showed some sort of "facilitator" hectoring a gym full of junior high school students about the wonders of "diversity" and the horrors of "bullying." It was a bizarre re-education session.

Kids were invited to come down from the bleachers and tell their weepy story of victimization, after which the facilitator demanded that the audience applaud the victim's courage.

This was in Benicia, CA.

LARRY MAAG said...

My lawyer gave me poor service and took my money. I found his profile on MAARS Global Lawyers , wrote a comment complaining. A few days later I got some money BACK from a lawyer!

Moose said...

So are they going to ban giving children psychotropic drugs to cure depression? One's that were not developed for, or been tested on children?

Once again, a ridiculously topical reaction to the tip of an ice berg...

Erika said...

Is it still legal in California to perform gender reassignment surgery on minors?

Therapist counselling a minor on handling unwanted sexual feelings=not OK.

Doctor slicing and dicing the genitals of, and prescribe massive doses of hormones to, minors=A-OK.

MayBee said...

So therapy to help a child change his sexual identity away from norm of the gender he appears to be is ok, but therapy to help a child change is sexual identity to the norm of the gender he appears to be is not ok.

Is that right?

MayBee said...

Is it the therapy that has driven the teens to suicide?
Don't homosexual teenagers have a high rate of suicide apart from the therapy?

Jay said...

Don't homosexual teenagers have a high rate of suicide apart from the therapy

Yes.

But we have to:

A) Pretend that isn't true

and/or

B) If we admit it is true, we blame it on the conservative meanies who de-humanize gays by opposing gay marriage.

Synova said...

Are there any *scientific* therapies?

Is there anything scientific about therapy?

This is why so many "conservatives" are losing faith in science, it's not *science*. Science is used like a big stick to beat you, and it's the ultimate authority and you've got to bow.

But you look at it and the stick isn't made of "science" at all. Nothing about therapy is scientific. The "experiments" can not be reproduced and no one knows how any particular individual is going to respond or not. The California law would criminalize a therapist who tried to help someone who came in and said "My boyfriend wanted a threesome and I liked it, and now I'm gay." The only *legal* response by the therapist would be "Yes, you are."

phx said...

And what about the medicines that have driven young people to depression and suicide?

Paddy O said...

Getting away from the gayness of this issue, it seems that therapy's goal as a whole it to change behaviors, and often these behaviors are relate to sexual expression.

Moreover, while there certainly are abusive situations, this law seems to take away the choice of an individual--take away their sexual choices. California is saying that a citizen of the state, if they are homosexual, cannot address perceived issues of sexual distortion (which need not be about who they are attracted to). Someone who does not like the promiscuous behaviors, or they have a past history of abuse that causes behaviors they want reduced.

Meanwhile, heterosexuals are able to, under California law, use therapy to address their sexual problems, distortions or frustrations.

I can't see how this law is valid under equal-protection. It is actively denying the right of a segment of a population to determine their own identity and issues and means of addressing it, using a phraseology and standard of "science" that is not applied to other non-sexuality forms of therapy.

Abusive situations should be called out, but this is addressing such situations by imposing a specific morality (all sex is good, more sex is better) upon the people of California, rather than letting each person come to terms with their own sexuality.

Birkel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MayBee said...

Is the Church of Scientology considered a therapy? Can California go after them based on this law?

I, like pduggie, am interested in whether someone will challenge this on religious freedom grounds.

The Godfather said...

What's a "mental health provider" under this law? The story doesn't say.

If it's defined to include only specific licensed professions, that's one thing. Maybe not wise, perhaps defensible under the state's regulatory police powers. It would be like banning the use of phrenology by medical practitioners.

But if it's defined to include anyone who seeks to perform the "therapy", it would certainly raise serious First Amendment issues, as several commenters have said -- not just religious free exercise issues, but general free speech issue, too. Like the paleo-diet guy.

The Godfather said...

What's a "mental health provider" under this law? The story doesn't say.

If it's defined to include only specific licensed professions, that's one thing. Maybe not wise, perhaps defensible under the state's regulatory police powers. It would be like banning the use of phrenology by medical practitioners.

But if it's defined to include anyone who seeks to perform the "therapy", it would certainly raise serious First Amendment issues, as several commenters have said -- not just religious free exercise issues, but general free speech issue, too. Like the paleo-diet guy.

CWJ said...

This is just part and parcel of the relentless codification of culture. Substituting the power of the state for the body of unwritten laws of behaviour that societies organically develop.

Ultimately one no longer has the luxury of simply being wrong subject to social censure, but rather must be actually criminal.

Jake Diamond said...

Hey! Jay's here to demonstrate his ignorance of science. Again.

Jay said...

Jake Diamond said...
Hey! Jay's here to demonstrate his ignorance of science.


Right.

And you can like totally prove that, bozo.

I bet you can.

Jake Diamond said...

And you can like totally prove that

I don't have to prove it. You provide plenty of proof every time you post.

Jay said...

Jake Diamond said...

I don't have to prove it. You provide plenty of proof every time you post.


You're an intellectual coward and not that bright and easily misled.

Keep flailing.

Jay said...

provide plenty of proof every time you post.

Really, where?

What are the examples, you silly little boy?

EDH said...

Why doesn't the law simply proscribe any therapy that would seek to alter anyone's proclivity toward lawful sexual activity?

Evidently, that would cut too close to the diversity industry's need to hector straight males about their impure urges.

The law, which is to take effect on Jan. 1, states that no “mental health provider” shall provide minors with therapy intended to change their sexual orientation, including efforts to “change behaviors or gender expressions, or to eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attractions or feelings toward individuals of the same sex.”

edutcher said...

What Skyler and Shout said.

I heard about this and, it seems to me there are examples of people being cured of the homosexual impulse.

If so. we've entered the era of Aryan science.

Der Reichsfuhrer-SS is probably scratching his head somewhere.

Jake Diamond said...

An example of Jay's idiocy:

"Actually, being gay has driven young kids to depression and suicide."

Now watch Jay try to defend that bit of lunacy.

Jay said...

Jake Diamond said...

Now watch Jay try to defend that bit of lunacy.


I don't have to "defend" facts you abject imbecile - Gay, lesbian and bisexual teens are five times more likely to commit suicide than their heterosexual counterparts.

Thanks for sticking to your idiotic comedy act.

Jay said...

Oh and In a study of depression and gay youth, researchers found depression strikes gay youth four to five times more severely than their non-gay peers.

Now come on Jakie, make some stupid reply attacking something I didn't say, or merely run away because frankly you're fucking dumb.

Levi Starks said...

What if the youth in question self identifies as Bisexual, and the mental health professional encourages him to choose an orientation and stick with it? Possibly even to the extent of having a lifelong relationship, that is to say monogamy, would promoting monogamy then be illegal?

The Crack Emcee said...

"This bill bans nonscientific 'therapies' that have driven young people to depression and suicide. These practices have no basis in science or medicine, and they will now be relegated to the dustbin of quackery."

He left out the part about allowing the rest to continue,...

Sam L. said...

It's not like anyone commits suicide without having any therapy. Surely not!

rhhardin said...

It sounds like bad news for global warming.

Jake Diamond said...

Gay, lesbian and bisexual teens are five times more likely to commit suicide than their heterosexual counterparts.

Jay - I realize you're a dolt, but what you've written doesn't prove that "BEING GAY has driven young kids to depression and suicide." Like idiots often do, you've conflated correlation and causation.

As I said before, with each post you provide more evidence of your ignorance of science, and I don't expect you to slow down either.

Mary Beth said...

I predict that there will be a bunch of new "stop being gay" camps in surrounding states. Same kind of treatment/pressure to change but without having family or friends nearby for love and support.

William said...

What about people like Oscar Wilde, Cole Porter, Gerald Murphy, John Cheever. Perhaps the larger chunk of their emotional lives was centered on their heterosexuality....I'm pro cults and pro quacks. If someone thinks that this particular therapy helps, then it helps. If not, they move on. There are some exceptions, but some people die from antiobioti therapy.

PatCA said...

I think Rupert Everett would be horrified at this.

James H said...

I think this law is unfortunate on several levels. Its also seems to live in a world where there are degrees of same sex attraction.

Studies show in fact that for young men excessive porn watching might mess up the wiring a tad.

I saw a survey where one in four Caribbean men today describe themselves as bisexual!!

http://www.advocate.com/society/culture/2012/08/15/nearly-1-4-men-bisexual-caribbean-study-says

I think that is number is a tad high. But I do think it shows a glimpse that perhaps there are varying degrees of same sex attraction and for that want to deal with it might find some benefit.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Is it still legal in California to perform gender reassignment surgery on minors?

While I'm in favor of the law based on the little I've read, Erika asks a pretty good question here.

Andy R. said...

This is really terrible news for all the religious bigots in California that want to torture their children.

Andy R. said...

Is it still legal in California to perform gender reassignment surgery on minors?

Yes.

This has been another episode of simple answers to simple questions.

Jay said...

Jake Diamond said...

Jay - I realize you're a dolt, but what you've written doesn't prove that "BEING GAY has driven young kids to depression and suicide." Like idiots often do, you've conflated correlation and causation.


That's funny.

It is a coincidence, I'm sure.

And for your next trick you'll assure us that gay sex doesn't lead to HIV infection or something.

n.n said...

They seem more concerned about a single-digit percentage of our population than the whole. While they condemn therapy to resolve homosexual behavior, they push therapy and psychological manipulation which sabotages physical and mental development of its beneficiaries.

The self-esteem movement is a notable deficiency promoted by these "experts", and we are just now attempting to cope with its consequences. These "experts" are responsible for the entitlement mentality without merit. They are responsible for the normalization of dysfunctional behaviors, including homosexual, heterosexual promiscuity, and elective termination (i.e. abortion) of children.

They are wrong about what is necessary for proper character development (i.e. suitable for civilized society). They are wrong about what is required for evolutionary fitness. They are wrong about what behaviors can be tolerated and they are certainly wrong about what behaviors should be normalized.

These experts deny evolutionary principles and better judgment. They seem intent on degrading our society.

purplepenquin said...

I've often heard that being bullied for being a homosexual can lead to depression & suicide, but this is the first time I've heard it said that merely being gay is what causes those folks to be depressed.

Is there an actual study/report that validates this new claim?

Fernandinande said...

"These practices have no basis in science or medicine, and they will now be relegated to the dustbin of quackery."

The first part is true of almost all psychological treatments (as is the claim of harmful effects); I'm still waiting for the second part.

Jake Diamond said...

And for your next trick you'll assure us that gay sex doesn't lead to HIV infection or something.

Yes, dumbshit, gay sex doesn't cause HIV. You seem particularly anxious to put your idiocy on display today.

Jake Diamond said...

Is there an actual study/report that validates this new claim?

No. Jay just pulled that turd directly from his ass.

Sayyid said...

Paddy O nailed it.

Postulate a person who is gay who walks into a therapist's office and says "Hi, I'm gay, and I'm having trouble controlling some of my more extreme sexual urges. I have engaged in risky sexual behaviors including failing to use proper protection during sexual activity. I would like help bringing my libido under control."

A therapist can apparently no longer legally help this individual upon the terms the individual desires in California.

Does anyone want to defend that result?

EDH: I believe this hypothetical also answers your question "Why doesn't the law simply proscribe any therapy that would seek to alter anyone's proclivity toward lawful sexual activity?"

Your law would actually be more prone to stopping people from getting help, because one couldn't even try to finagle the matter and say "oh, no, I'm just trying to raise self-control, not reduce sexual attraction."

Jay said...

Jake Diamond said...

Yes, dumbshit, gay sex doesn't cause HIV


Note that I said: you'll assure us that gay sex doesn't lead to HIV infection

Now want to guess why you're referred to as an abject idiot?

Jay said...

Jake Diamond said...
Like idiots often do, you've conflated correlation and causation.


Mind you, that coming from the same driveling idiot who assured us that it is "well established that voter ID leads to disenfrachisement"

When asked for proof of such a silly claim wittle jakie linked to Nate Silver who assured us studies conclude it could happen.

What wittle Jakie could not do is show us when & where such disenfrachisement happens given that 20 states have voter ID laws and have held elections with said laws in place.

Don't worry, wittle jakie knows all about correlation & causation.

He does.

Really.

Jay said...



purplepenquin said...
I've often heard that being bullied for being a homosexual can lead to depression & suicide, but this is the first time I've heard it said that merely being gay is what causes those folks to be depressed.

Is there an actual study/report that validates this new claim?


If "bullying" leads gay teenagers to commit suicide at greater rates than their peers, perhaps you could then explain why gay adults commit suicide (and abuse drugs & alcohol at greater rates) than the public at large?

Or is this just some big coincidencs that gay teenagers & adults are more depressed & prone to suicide than the average population?

Jake Diamond said...

Jay's homophobia is out of control again.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Postulate a person who is gay who walks into a therapist's office and says "Hi, I'm gay, and I'm having trouble controlling some of my more extreme sexual urges.... A therapist can apparently no longer legally help this individual upon the terms the individual desires in California.

According to the article this is true only if the individual is a minor. Is the article in error?

Andy R. said...

Jay's bigotry act is clearly a ploy designed to help pro-gay causes by discrediting the hateful morons that oppose gay people.

Thank you, Jay. Your satire is appreciated, and the overwhelming momentum in favor of queer people is due, in some small part, to your efforts.

Jay said...

Jake Diamond said...
Jay's homophobia is out of control again.


don't worry, it was pretty predictable that you would descend past the point of being able to type a useful sentence.

Idiot.

PS: CDC estimates that MSM account for just 2% of the U.S. population, but accounted for 61% of all new HIV infections in 2009. In 2009, white MSM continued to account for the largest number of new HIV infections of any group in the U.S. (11,400), followed closely by black MSM (10,800).

Homophobes!!!

Jake Diamond said...

To be fair to Jay, he gets VERY ANGRY!! when people point out how stupid his comments often are. His RAGE!! causes stupidity tantrums where he doubles down on dumb.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jay explains Japan's high suicide rate by asserting that "being Japanese drives people to suicide." That's how Jay's feeble mind "works."

Jay said...

Andy R. said...


Thank you, Jay. Your satire is appreciated, and the overwhelming momentum in favor of queer people is due,


As I've told you before dumbshit, the future belongs to those showing up. And since you have a shorter life expectancy than your heterosexual peers, good luck with that.

Really.

Shouting Thomas said...

Butt Hurt Andy shows up to play out his usual scam.

He got his ass kissed all through college.

It pays, doesn't it, Andy?

Playing the butt hurt victim is Andy's occupation.

Jay said...

Jake Diamond said...
I wouldn't be surprised if Jay explains Japan's high suicide rate by asserting that "being Japanese drives people to suicide."


You are so fucking dumb you can't seem to understand the point.

Don't worry, that was predictable too.

Shouting Thomas said...

Do you have a job, Andy, or are you a full time scam artist?

Paul Zrimsek said...

I wouldn't be surprised if Jay explains Japan's high suicide rate by asserting that "being Japanese drives people to suicide."

The Anointed know that it's really caused by anti-Japanese bullying, driven by the Japanophobia of Japanese culture.

Jay said...

Andy R. said...
Jay's bigotry act


If pointing out facts about your abnormal "lifestyle" is "bigotry" then you better call up those bigots at the CDC and tell them to stop printing all this bigoted data.

Stuff like:
Unprotected receptive anal intercourse with ejaculation and sex while high on methamphetamine were the most important predictors of HCV infection...
concurrent HIV infection results in increased HCV RNA levels (viral load) (7), which are thought to increase infectiousness of HCV acquired through sexual contact. Of further concern among persons who are coinfected is that HIV accelerates HCV disease progression, even in its early stages


Is pretty icky & bigoted, huh?

Jake Diamond said...

I suspect nearly all Althouse conservatives are embarrassed by Jay's stupidity tantrums.

Jay said...

By the way, the CDC's motto is "Saving Lives. Protecting people" do you think we can get them to squeeze "bigot" somewhere in there andy?

Jake Diamond said...

Jay seems to spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about Andy's sex life.

purplepenquin said...

If "bullying" leads gay teenagers to commit suicide at greater rates than their peers, perhaps you could then explain why gay adults commit suicide (and abuse drugs & alcohol at greater rates) than the public at large?

Because adults are also bullied & ridiculed...and sometimes even physically attacked...for being gay. Do you truly think that such boorish behavior simply stops after high school?

Does anyone else subscribe to Jay's theory that merely being gay, in&of itself, leads to depression and suicide? If so, could ya please provide a link that backs up the claim...I truly am interested in learning more.

~~~~

Jay's bigotry act is clearly a ploy designed to help pro-gay causes by discrediting the hateful morons that oppose gay people

I've often suspected that his over-the-top rhetoric is the act of a Moby, but then I remind myself that there are really people like that.

I don't think he is pretending - I truly beleive that he beleives everything he says. I am just wondering if his opinion is grounded in actual facts or not.

~~~~
I wouldn't be surprised if Jay explains Japan's high suicide rate by asserting that "being Japanese drives people to suicide."

Maybe they are all secretly gay?

:D

purplepenquin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
PatHMV said...

Suppose a young man is in therapy to help him cope with the fact that his uncle molested him as a boy. As a consequence of having been molested by a same-sex adult, the young man wonders if maybe he caused this molestation somehow, that somehow the abuse would not have happened unless he had somehow encouraged it, somehow sent out a "gay vibe." This type of self-blame is extremely common in victims of molestation. As a result, perhaps the young man has even sought out gay sex as he's grown older, acting out in response to the molestation and his self-blame.

Would the therapist be forbidden to suggest that the young man's gay feelings might be a result of the uncle's molestation, that the uncle choosing him for the molestation does NOT mean that the young man is gay, and encouraging the young man to explore heterosexual relationships to see if they are more fulfilling to him?

It's an absurd law, and a serious restriction and imposition on the right of free speech and an intrusion into the doctor-patient relationship.

Note that liberals are regularly outraged by the federal law which prohibits certain doctors who receive federal funding from recommending or counseling about abortion. That interferes, they claim, with the sacrosanct doctor-patient relationship, the privacy of the patient, you name it. Here, however, this isn't just a restriction on what recipients of federal funding can do, it's a flat ban on ALL therapists talking about a certain subject in a certain way.

TMink said...

So if a 16 year old comes into my office seeking therapy for themselves, which they can do, and they seek to reduce same sex attractions, in Kali I would have to say "Sorry, the government will not allow me to help you with that. Does this rejection make you depressed? Because I can help with unwanted depression, just not unwanted sexual feelings."

Now the story goes that Lou Reed was given electric shocks to "cure" him of his same sex attraction. Now he is married to Laurie Anderson. There are numerous jokes there, and I would indulge in a few if it were not for the whole shock therapy part. That makes the situation less than humorous.

Trey

TMink said...

Wonderful question Pat! In fact, a percentage of people who are gay are in that situation. At least a third, and likely a higher percentage of people who consider themselves gay are untreated sexual abuse survivors.

I always ask people when they realized they were gay and I cannot count how many people tell me either that another person showed them that when they were a young teen or they were sexually abused by the opposite gender and no longer are sexually responsive to that gender.

But Kali knows best. Just look how well they are managing their finances.

Trey

TMink said...

Actually, there is scientific support for talk therapy. There is lots of it. In general, well done talk therapy has an effect size of between .5 and .7.

The type of talk therapy has been shown scientifically to be less important than the relationship between the therapist and patient from the patient's point of view. The higher the patient rates the therapist's empathy, the better the outcome. Of course these are statistics and describe how 1000 cases go better than an individual case.

Anti depressants usually come in with an effect size of .2.

One of the problems with scientifically validated therapy is that not everyone takes the time and expense to validate it! That is a difficult undertaking, so generally only academic therapists do that sort of thing, and most of them are cognitive behavioral therapists, so cognitive behavioral therapy has the most robust research backing it up.

To get an overview, just google psychotherapy outcome research.

Trey

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

purplepenquin,

Because adults are also bullied & ridiculed...and sometimes even physically attacked...for being gay. Do you truly think that such boorish behavior simply stops after high school?


Men appear to kill themselves at four or five times the rate of women. May we deduce that it's because they are disproportionately bullied and ridiculed?

Jay said...

purplepenquin said...

Because adults are also bullied & ridiculed...and sometimes even physically attacked...for being gay. Do you truly think that such boorish behavior simply stops after high school?


That isn't really an answer as the # of people depressed & suicidal is far greater than the number bullied.

You realize that being gay is celebrated in mainstream American TV & cinema, right?

I mean, it isn't like people are hypersensitive to these issues or anything.

Jay said...

I don't think he is pretending - I truly beleive that he beleives everything he says. I am just wondering if his opinion is grounded in actual facts or not.

I've already listed the facts.

If you want to go about pretending that data going back 20+ years shows that gays are more suicidal and depressed than the population at large has some unclear explanation or is correlation, go right ahead.

Chuck66 said...

I would be more impressed if they banned making accomodations for boys who think they are girls, and vice versa.

Jake Diamond said...

I've already listed the facts.

Jay's problem is irrationality. Listing a few statistics means nothing if you can't interpret them and use logic to reach conclusions.
Jay can't. That's why he says such truly stupid things.

Methadras said...

Jeez, then I wonder what other therapies are going to get challenged based on this law.

purplepenquin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
purplepenquin said...

Men appear to kill themselves at four or five times the rate of women. May we deduce that it's because they are disproportionately bullied and ridiculed?

Could be that. Or could be that society places more pressures on males. Or any other number of reasons.


Or we could just say that merely being male is what drives 'em to suicide, and thus we should ban being male.

*shrug*

Fred Drinkwater said...

I heard about this during a KQED (SF) California news report about the Sunday night bill-signing flurry that Gov. Brown just did. Apparently the legislature submitted something like 1200 bills this year, and Brown vetoed 12 percent. Oh Boy. That means that we have something like 1050 new "laws" etc. in CA just in the last 12 months.
I seriously doubt the bill being discussed in this thread is either the stupidest or the most dangerous in that huge pile.
For instance, a bill to permit persons who were minors when they were sentenced to Life Without Parole, to have their sentences considered for parole anyway, was signed. OK, I can see the point of that. HOWEVER, there happens to also be a proposition on the ballot this November to eliminate the death penalty in CA, replacing it with LWOP. Now, one of the fundamental arguments of the proponents of that proposition has always been this: Trust Us. LWOP is really "Without Parole"!
So...Like everything in CA law, I guess that issue boils down to "Trust the CA legislature." Uh huh.

Fred Drinkwater said...

purplepenguin: "shrug", eh?
My younger brother, for example, hanged himself last year. He was clinically depressed and unemployed. I was there when the search team found him hanging from the tree.
No, not "shrug".

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

I'd be curious what the position of the Psychoanalytic Societies in various CA cities is. It would be in their therapies where anxieties about homosexuality would often be discussed.

purplepenquin said...

Fred,

I'm sincerely sorry if you found my words to be hurtful or callous.

Perhaps I should have wrote /snark or /sarcasm rather than *shrug*, but I figured that anyone who has been reading the thread would catch the reference I was making.

bagoh20 said...

What about all this feminizing of boys in school. That seems like the same thing only directed at hetero boys, and it's institutional.

Fred Drinkwater said...

purplepenquin:
I read the thread. I've been reading AA's blog for roughly a decade; I know how people behave here.
You exhibit on this site, I have to say, an immature persona. I don't intend that as a criticism, but as an observation. If that's what you intend, OK. If not, then...

Ben said...

I think we should keep these treatments safe, legal, and rare instead of banning them.

Think of the poor confused teenagers going to back alley psychologists to get the treatments they want?

Fred Drinkwater said...

Ben wins the thread.

Paul Zrimsek said...

If we could get some shrink to turn Sandra Fluke into a lesbian, we'd save enough on contraceptives to balance the budget.

Emery Calame said...

Acupuncture, homeopathy, reflexology...

DEEBEE said...

Each small step always makes sense, until one realizes that the whole is does not.

Jay said...

Jake Diamond said...


Jay's problem is irrationality. Listing a few statistics means nothing if you can't interpret them and use logic to reach conclusions.


Right retard.

Studies going back to 1992 demonstrate that gays kill themselves at a higher rate than the population at large, and go through depression at higher rates than the population at large.

Is is like so "irrational" to conclude being gay makes you depressed.

Really, it is.

Note that you're just here writing stupid sentences at this point.

Moron.

Jake Diamond said...

Studies going back to 1992 demonstrate that gays kill themselves at a higher rate than the population at large, and go through depression at higher rates than the population at large.

Yes Jay, we get it... You contine to conflate correlation and causation, and as usual, you think that repeating your idiotic assertions a fourth, fifth or sixth time makes them more compelling. In fact, it only convinces everyone that you're a dumbshit.

Now Jay, tell us again your theory about how pregnancy tests are responsible for making women pregnant.

Rich Rostrom said...

Would this include therapy to enable teens to stop being attracted to pre-pubescent children?

As to the "gender expression" issue: there is evidence that most cases of childhood gender dysphoria go away, sometimes with adult encouragement.

For these children, this is an outcome far superior to gender-changing, because the surgical/hormonal procedures for GC produce produce at best a simulacrum of the target gender, and that simulacrum is often not very good.

But there are other children whose gender dysphoria is intractable, and for them, acceptance adn early hormone treatment or even surgery are best.

In other words, in most cases it shouldn't be done, but in the other cases it should be done as early as possible.

I question very strongly whether a legislature has the expertise to decide such a question for the entire population.

Paolo said...

Jake Diamond,

while correlation is not always causation, it is true that causation is a form of correlation: ergo, when you have correlation, causality is not excluded. Jay's point may or may not be correct, but you're wrong pretending a-priori that the correlation here does not involve causality: this has to be proven, or at least argued, which you did not.
As you yourself say, just repeating your statement does not make it more compelling.

Of course, in regard to human behavior, there is hardly one single cause: this is why in sociology it's difficult to reach a definitive explanation, especially when it hurts someone's assumptions.

Your comparison with pregnancy tests, btw, is simply inappropriate, as you will probably understand by yourself.

Unknown said...

Jake Diamond

While there is a well established correlation between cigarette smoking and lung cancer, I am not aware that anyone has yet demonstrated a mechanism of causation. Since this is your standard, do you advocate ending restrictions on cigarette smoking and second hand smoke regulations?

Do you believe that the 'early stage cancer "itchy lungs" causes people to smoke' theory is equally as valid as the 'smoking causes cancer' theory?

Alan said...

Heh, I'm not the only one who thought of Scientology.

A state with more diet fads than OWS has lice wants to regulate psychology?

Suppose a young man is in therapy to help him cope with the fact that his uncle molested him as a boy. As a consequence of having been molested by a same-sex adult, the young man wonders if maybe he caused this molestation somehow, that somehow the abuse would not have happened unless he had somehow encouraged it, somehow sent out a "gay vibe." This type of self-blame is extremely common in victims of molestation.

Here's one anecdote: in his autobiography Breaking the Surface, Greg Louganis wrote that during his teen years he was approached sexually by an adult male, and he perceived it as affection rather than molestation.

I've wondered if there's a middle-ground opinion that holds that some homosexuality is inherently messed up in the head and some isn't. The Stockholm Syndrome variety of homosexuality isn't unheard of (it's been charged that those molested as youth grow up to molest youth), and I would think that a number of gay men who are aware of these stories would not want to be lumped with the these sorts.

kentuckyliz said...

Isn't NARTH/ Dr. Joseph Nicolosi in CA?

Not all MH professionals agree with this prohibition. This stance is not scientifically justified, but merely political.

Alan said...

NARTH is headquartered in Encino, CA. That's about the only part of the Wikipedia article I trust.

Shripathi Kamath said...

How often are minors the focus of such therapy?

How many occurrences of this are known to happen in any given year?


Dunno, but my guess is "far more than a single 9/11 occurrence"

Shripathi Kamath said...


What happens when a kid goes to a priest for help?

If the priest responds with the traditional teaching of the Church, will he be in violation of the law?


Nope, read the bill.

Shripathi Kamath said...

Is it the therapy that has driven the teens to suicide?
Don't homosexual teenagers have a high rate of suicide apart from the therapy?


Yes.

Yes.

Likewise, there is a ban in California that prevents texting while driving.

Again, there are far more instances of accidents than those that result from texting.